Great depth, and breadth, in your comprehensive treatment of the subject today.
Based on what I’ve seen — which isn’t a lot, but is convincing, nonetheless — I’m certain the Brownsville phenomenon was a genuine movement of God. It did bother me that a clip from Brownsville was added to the Kundalini Warning video. I know your ministry is genuinely of God; I wouldn’t even listen to your show if I felt otherwise.
I know I shook like a leaf when I first stood to profess.
I may have jumped to conclusions about the charismatic phenom Strom showed us. Or not. I know God will separate the wheat from the chaff.
You’re right — what matters is not the outward manifestations but the inner transformative experience (which only God and the individual can know of) and sound doctrine. If we judge by appearance only, we’re bound to be mistaken. I don’t remember any evidence of doctrine in the video, other than at the end, the part about one of the charismatic leaders saying that he was told “not to preach Jesus, but to preach angels.” That is obviously the work of evil.
Many thanks, excellent program.
Thanks, Ruth, and always remember that people can take video or audio clips and give a very misleading impression. That’s why Edwards emphasized the importance of judging by the whole, not the part.
I suppose it was about 18 years ago when I first saw what I have referred to as the laughing bug go around in some churches.
The first time I saw people laughing in a church setting with a laughter that kept going and going was late one night while watching Christain television.
The laughter was invited in a subtle way by the minister. He did this by first having a solemn atmospehere. The people were sitting in folding chairs all in rows, men wearing suits, looking like a typical church setting. Everything was quiet and orderly.
Then the minister came in and though he began talking in a serious tone, he began wandering around the front of the room and began talking nonsense in a monotone voice, acting as if in a daze.
This brought about a few snickers from the crowd which became a laughter and on it went and this caused no reaction to come from the minister which seemed to make things all the more strange.
During the same year I was at a new church which a friend invited me to. I remember being told by an usher or an elder (I don’t know which he was) before the meeting started something about “keeping your seat belts on” which I thought to be strange.
I began to wonder what it was that they were expecting. Were we all about to be taken on a ride of some type. How did he know something was going to happen?
The teaching was on charity and while the teaching was going on some people began laughing and rolling around on the floor. It was the laughing bug as I called it.
There was also something strange about one of the “worship” songs. The musicians and the singers sang the same lines over and over and it had a pull on the flesh, the music and the words together. It seemed to take people over, one of those kind of songs that “stick in your head” as I call it, and this it did to me later on in the week while I was at work.
It took a song about the blood of Jesus to break it’s spell.
I wrote the pastor of the church about some of my concerns because I came to hear the gospel, worship and pray and there were people laughing during the teaching on charity.
I also wrote of my concerns about the music and words of that one song. I wrote out other words to the melody which was not about “us” as were their words at the time, but about how God has ransomed us, purchased us by the blood of his Son and that nothing can snatch us out of his hands, and asked the pastor if he would sing these words to the same melody and notice that the “spell” was broken by doing so.
I also asked him if he would teach it to the worship team.
What I used for technique to discern was simply what I called the fear of God, also taking notice of what’s wrong with the words to the song. Now I remember that the song the worship team was singing was about how we had power instead of how our names are written in heaven. (Luke 10:20)
I’ve seen some people fall, some being encouraged to fall, and sometimes have heard someone fall rather hard and I don’t think it was something they wanted to do. It seemed like it just happened. I’m not sure why.
I have never fallen yet. I haven’t found any reason to yet.
In my experience of “falling,” I was in my house alone, and I had a small altar by the fireplace. No images, just a candle, I believe; maybe some devotional words written and placed there.
What I can recall — this was around 32 years ago — was that I felt, during prayer while facing it, God wanting me to say His Name out loud. I don’t know if I ever had before; I don’t recall. So I did, I said “YHWH” — I may have even said “Jehovah,” I don’t remember now — but I know I said “YHWH” out loud, and that’s when I felt myself weakened by a strong interior force which overpowered me somewhat and I “fell.” But I didn’t fall so as to hurt myself; in fact, I wondered how I could fall so completely, yet have it be such a gentle kind of fall, too, where I had time to brace myself with my hands to the carpeted floor and finish falling forward easily and without strain. The impression it registered was along the lines of ‘I am here; this is real; here is some proof of My power.’ Not that He said those words literally; just that the presence and the force were, as if, saying those things.
I just believed. It was just convincing. But no, it wasn’t like being rushed at by some ‘demon;’ it wasn’t at all unpleasant; it wasn’t “evil”; it was a kind of confirmation, I believe, that we had connected.
Of course, we tend to doubt things, and I had a moment or two of puzzling it out — why me, I’m nothing and no one, why would God take a moment of His day to give me a concrete experience of His reality. I think it was important that He wanted me to know, yes, this is My Name.
I experienced three unusual occurrences in relation to my seeking Him while living in that house, and that was one.
Some people seek for unusual experiences and never have one. I don’t know why it is that some have these experiences and others do not. I believe it was that I was just so thirsty for Him, for real truth, for the real God — not a counterfeit God – the real, honest-to-truth God, and He heard my desire.
I just want to serve Him in whatever way He wants me to.
I wanted to praise God for this show and for giving clear answers when needed. I am the one who sent the email. I had been doing my own research, and praying for God to speak and help me with this issue. I felt in my heart that I should ask you, Dr. Brown,for help. I needed help in a timely manner, and knew God would have to make a way for you to answer because of your schedule and thousands of other emails you receive. I have 2 small children and couldn’t write to you with them around.However, I finally got a little time to write, and as I had most everything typed, my laptop shut off, and I lost everything I had written. Then God made a way that night for me to type it again, this time successfully. I got a response the next day from your wonderful staff explaining that due to your schedule you would not be able to respond, but someone would try to. I just put it in God’s hands. And to my wonderful surprise, you did a whole show on it! I praise Him so much, and I thank you, Dr. Brown for listening to the Holy Spirit.
I’ve never fallen in a church meeting under anything I could call supernatural or by the power of God, however I have been working and experienced a near fall and I believe I can honestly say I believe there was a supernatural connection, or an encounter with the power of God at that time.
At the time I was angry about something, having conversations concerning matters of the heart and the word, and other people at times.Not always are my thoughts right or the things I say right with the Lord and he can move my balance or keep me on a stool. I know he can humble me in many ways even by causing me to have a near fall.
This happened to me. I remember telling myself that I could have really fallen and become injured. It could have been a bad fall.
I know at times I’ve had the blessing of God when I have fallen from things whether a step up on something or a motorcycle. It’s good to have the blessing of God and fall just right and avoid injury or death. God can do that.
I believe he can do a lot of things because we belong to him. He gives me my balance and he can take it away. He can make my feet like hind’s feet …or not. (Job 39)
Dr. Brown;
First let me say I think you are a stand up guy. So I give you more credibility points in terms or your personal experience than I would many others who teach via broadcast. It was a nice summary and gave me something to think about; especially the comments by J.Edwards. I would love to hear you have a live interaction with Hank Hanegraafft. That would be an interesting broadcast.
Here is one question and one concern.
Question: Why is it that that falling and shaking is only seen in churches where people are known to fall and shake. That is, in my church I know people are touched by the Holy Spirit, but no falling and shaking occur. This makes me think that there is a role for expectation in terms of how one reacts from one church to the next. That is, what we see in the physical does not necessarily reflect the spiritual. Or can you think of an alternative explanation of why the Holy Spirit works differently in different churches. It seems unlikely that all people who become physically disturbed with emotional impact all end up at the same type of church, with absolutely none of them ending up in the more conservative churches.
Concern: If I were to write another chapter in the “Screw tape letters”, it might be how to get your eyes off the Lord with manifestations. That is, if you can get into a church and turn it upside down with manifestations such that people come looking for more, you have won a victory. I believe it was Norman Geisler who commenting on the subjective once said after a while people stop worshiping the God of their experience[found in the Bible] and start worshiping their experience of God [subjective feeling oriented]. I once heard Geisler say (paraphrase)people will lay their Bibles down and say “now speak to me Lord” when He already has spoken to them in the 66 books of the Bible. We are a very experience oriented culture. That seems to be the new measure of truth.
Lewis,
Thanks for your gracious words. To answer your question, I have actually seen God overpower people who didn’t believe in such a thing and who never heard of it before. I have personally prayed for non-believers who were surprised by God’s power as well as for believers who, in fact, were staunchly against being “slain in the Spirit,” and watched them be instantly overpowered by the Spirit. And I have prayed for people who expect to fall and who think it’s spiritual to fall and yet when I prayed for them, I did not sense “power” coming out from me, and, in fact, nothing happened to them. I have always walked up behind people being prayed for by others (and they were standing quietly), and I gently put my hand on the person’s back (they didn’t see me or know who it was) as I was trying to walk past them, only to see them overpowered by the Spirit. I could go on with examples like this, both here and abroad, but you’ve gotten the point.
As for your last point, I have always preached and taught that the issue is not whether you fall or shake but rather how you live and walk before God. What you are failing to factor in here is that many of these people are being dramatically touched by God, because of which their eyes are on Him much more than before. The Holy Spirit draws people to Jesus, and in countless thousands of cases, I have seen people touched by the Spirit who become much more Christ-centered in their lives.
My perception of your posts is that, with all sincerity, you are looking from the outside at things (in terms of “manifestations”), not understanding what the Spirit is doing, whereas I am talking from decades of eye-witness experience.
In any case, the books I pointed you to earlier contain all the quotes I read on the show, along with many more, and all of it is grounded in Scripture.
Lewis,
Dr. Brown has already interacted with Hank. Even though they disagree on different topics, they are friends.
“Question: Why is it that that falling and shaking is only seen in churches where people are known to fall and shake.”
There are many testimonies where people got touched by the Holy Spirit in a church setting that has never experienced falling and/or shaking.
To summarize it, the first thing is not about manifestations but the fruit of what the Spirit is doing. We need to see/hear about changed lives, physical healing, deliverance from addictions, etc.
Is there a posing of the Hank B. vs. Mike B. interchange? I once discussed demonology with Hank;s then chief researcher, who wanted me to come on the Bible Answer Man and debate whether a Christian can be demonized (as can anyone in the circumstance of giving the devil a foothold). I declined because Hank Hanegraafft’s program can be a setup, where he is both a positional debator and the moderator. I’ve heard him dismiss the opposition just by changing hats. In this sense his program is completely not impartial. What do you think?
Should read…is there a posting of the Hank H. vs. Mike B. interchange?
As far as I know, the only interaction was a face to face meeting.
Folks, Hank and I had a public, unrecorded dialog in late 1997, which was followed up by hours of face to face interaction during three of four meetings in several different locations over the years. Those times together greatly enhanced my appreciation of Hank and his heart for the Lord’s work, despite any differences we may have.
I appreciate the commitment of both H. and B. to truth, but have concerns about H.’s predispostion in certain instances of boarderline anti-charisma views. I read many books over the years about spiritual warfare, of necessity, and find his position on the subject academic and marginal, rather than specific, involved, and knowledgable. What is really telling is his position on the antiChrist and the end times, over which he universalizes the Revelation to the world system, rather than possible future literal economic and war conditions. What lingers for me, is Muhammed the Prophet of the one to come?
“Learn not to go beyond the things which are written” (1Corintians 4:6)
All God’s works are done within the parameters of truth. Scripture clearly defines truth’s boundaries.
1Co 4:6 – ASV …learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.
Proverbs 30:6 – KJV Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Psa 33:4 – KJV For the word of the LORD is right; and ALL HIS WORKS ARE DONE IN TRUTH.
Joh 17:17 – KJV Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH.
Rather than seeing the scrutinizing of scripture for proper context of truth as ‘legalism’ it is in fact ‘purity’.
Pro 30:5 KJV – EVERY WORD OF GOD IS PURE: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
The central core of true Christianity is sanctification.
1Co 6:11 KJV And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
It is also important to check out for yourselves everything that is taught, preached, or written under the header “Christian” to see if it is so.
Act 17:11 KJV – These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Th 5:21 KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I find it useful to use Bible study software to do searches on various subjects. Example: Search out keyword such as shaking or quaking. You will find it simply was a result of fear–many times fear of the Lord. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is ‘self-control’.
There are genuine divine healing, signs & wonders, and miracles, but SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES YOURSELF–BELIEVE NONE OF THE COUNTERFEIT REVIVAL DECEPTIONS!
Did you know that ‘drunk in the spirit’ is actually a curse. See:
Isaiah 29:9-10 KJV Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. (10) For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Job 12:25 KJV They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.
Rich, have you even listened to the recorded show?
Ben KC, it appears he has not listened to the show. Otherwise, why would he be attacking things that I don’t advocate or claiming that a true, repentance-based, Word-grounded, holiness-producing, Jesus-glorifying revival like Brownsville was a counterfeit?
So, Rich, please be kind enough to explain your post in light of this particular broadcast so we can better understand what you’re concerns are.
After further investigating, its possible Rich is a member on Andrew Strom’s forum. “Virtue” is his login name who has been speaking against you on Stroms site. You should find Virtue’s comments similar to Rich’s comment.
Ben KC, my big issue is that folks often don’t deal with the facts but rather with misinformation. And so, people who never attended a single meeting are more expert that people who attended 1,000 meetings, and all positive fruit — Word-based preaching, deep repentance, holy living, disciples made, the gospel preached in purity around the world, Jesus being glorified — all this is dismissed based on either second-hand reports and/or an unusual response by an individual.
Let’s pray for all the good qualities found in Strom’s folks, along with an ability for them to see the wonderful things God has done and is doing.
I’m not able to interact with folks on other forums, but the phone lines are always open on my radio show.
Thank you Mr brown for taking on this topic,to be honest I was really confused about these menifestations. I can see Andrews concern but I also seehim taking his pointof view on the other extreme. I have been in services where ten laughing people sorrounded me seeing I wasn’t laughing so all of them lay hands on me,I did not laugh so I was told I had a religious demon,even asking anything about the menifestations we would be called being religious.the whole preaching was about how everyone can prophesy.it was more of a braging then preaching. Sure was a bad expereince,however it was through your sermon called’called to die’ God really convicted me,to live right n follow him. N ur right about judging it by the fruit. God bless
Dear Dr. Brown,
Thank you for dealing with this subject. I sent an e-mail inquiring about Strom’s statements and apparently a lot of other people wondered about his observations also. One wonders if he is trying to use dramatic tactics to sell his book or if he sincerely believes he has discernment on the subject but that is for God to know.
Your statements clarify the issue and for those of us who do believe the Holy Spirit bears witness to what is true and what is a counterfeit, we ultimately rely on that inner witness. Why would anyone try to limit God’s manifestations to their own finite understanding and interprestation of scriptures?
Great depth, and breadth, in your comprehensive treatment of the subject today.
Based on what I’ve seen — which isn’t a lot, but is convincing, nonetheless — I’m certain the Brownsville phenomenon was a genuine movement of God. It did bother me that a clip from Brownsville was added to the Kundalini Warning video. I know your ministry is genuinely of God; I wouldn’t even listen to your show if I felt otherwise.
I know I shook like a leaf when I first stood to profess.
I may have jumped to conclusions about the charismatic phenom Strom showed us. Or not. I know God will separate the wheat from the chaff.
You’re right — what matters is not the outward manifestations but the inner transformative experience (which only God and the individual can know of) and sound doctrine. If we judge by appearance only, we’re bound to be mistaken. I don’t remember any evidence of doctrine in the video, other than at the end, the part about one of the charismatic leaders saying that he was told “not to preach Jesus, but to preach angels.” That is obviously the work of evil.
Many thanks, excellent program.
Thanks, Ruth, and always remember that people can take video or audio clips and give a very misleading impression. That’s why Edwards emphasized the importance of judging by the whole, not the part.
I suppose it was about 18 years ago when I first saw what I have referred to as the laughing bug go around in some churches.
The first time I saw people laughing in a church setting with a laughter that kept going and going
was late one night while watching Christain television.
The laughter was invited in a subtle way by the minister. He did this by first having a solemn atmospehere. The people were sitting in folding chairs all in rows, men wearing suits, looking like a typical church setting. Everything was quiet and orderly.
Then the minister came in and though he began talking in a serious tone, he began wandering around the front of the room and began talking nonsense in a monotone voice, acting as if in a daze.
This brought about a few snickers from the crowd which became a laughter and on it went and this caused no reaction to come from the minister which seemed to make things all the more strange.
During the same year I was at a new church which a friend invited me to. I remember being told by an usher or an elder (I don’t know which he was) before the meeting started something about “keeping your seat belts on” which I thought to be strange.
I began to wonder what it was that they were expecting. Were we all about to be taken on a ride of some type. How did he know something was going to happen?
The teaching was on charity and while the teaching was going on some people began laughing and rolling around on the floor. It was the laughing bug as I called it.
There was also something strange about one of the “worship” songs. The musicians and the singers sang the same lines over and over and it had a pull on the flesh, the music and the words together. It seemed to take people over, one of those kind of songs that “stick in your head” as I call it, and this it did to me later on in the week while I was at work.
It took a song about the blood of Jesus to break it’s spell.
I wrote the pastor of the church about some of my concerns because I came to hear the gospel, worship and pray and there were people laughing during the teaching on charity.
I also wrote of my concerns about the music and words of that one song. I wrote out other words to the melody which was not about “us” as were their words at the time, but about how God has ransomed us, purchased us by the blood of his Son and that nothing can snatch us out of his hands, and asked the pastor if he would sing these words to the same melody and notice that the “spell” was broken by doing so.
I also asked him if he would teach it to the worship team.
What I used for technique to discern was simply what I called the fear of God, also taking notice of what’s wrong with the words to the song. Now I remember that the song the worship team was singing was about how we had power instead of how our names are written in heaven. (Luke 10:20)
I’ve seen some people fall, some being encouraged to fall, and sometimes have heard someone fall rather hard and I don’t think it was something they wanted to do. It seemed like it just happened. I’m not sure why.
I have never fallen yet. I haven’t found any reason to yet.
In my experience of “falling,” I was in my house alone, and I had a small altar by the fireplace. No images, just a candle, I believe; maybe some devotional words written and placed there.
What I can recall — this was around 32 years ago — was that I felt, during prayer while facing it, God wanting me to say His Name out loud. I don’t know if I ever had before; I don’t recall. So I did, I said “YHWH” — I may have even said “Jehovah,” I don’t remember now — but I know I said “YHWH” out loud, and that’s when I felt myself weakened by a strong interior force which overpowered me somewhat and I “fell.” But I didn’t fall so as to hurt myself; in fact, I wondered how I could fall so completely, yet have it be such a gentle kind of fall, too, where I had time to brace myself with my hands to the carpeted floor and finish falling forward easily and without strain. The impression it registered was along the lines of ‘I am here; this is real; here is some proof of My power.’ Not that He said those words literally; just that the presence and the force were, as if, saying those things.
I just believed. It was just convincing. But no, it wasn’t like being rushed at by some ‘demon;’ it wasn’t at all unpleasant; it wasn’t “evil”; it was a kind of confirmation, I believe, that we had connected.
Of course, we tend to doubt things, and I had a moment or two of puzzling it out — why me, I’m nothing and no one, why would God take a moment of His day to give me a concrete experience of His reality. I think it was important that He wanted me to know, yes, this is My Name.
I experienced three unusual occurrences in relation to my seeking Him while living in that house, and that was one.
Some people seek for unusual experiences and never have one. I don’t know why it is that some have these experiences and others do not. I believe it was that I was just so thirsty for Him, for real truth, for the real God — not a counterfeit God – the real, honest-to-truth God, and He heard my desire.
I just want to serve Him in whatever way He wants me to.
I wanted to praise God for this show and for giving clear answers when needed. I am the one who sent the email. I had been doing my own research, and praying for God to speak and help me with this issue. I felt in my heart that I should ask you, Dr. Brown,for help. I needed help in a timely manner, and knew God would have to make a way for you to answer because of your schedule and thousands of other emails you receive. I have 2 small children and couldn’t write to you with them around.However, I finally got a little time to write, and as I had most everything typed, my laptop shut off, and I lost everything I had written. Then God made a way that night for me to type it again, this time successfully. I got a response the next day from your wonderful staff explaining that due to your schedule you would not be able to respond, but someone would try to. I just put it in God’s hands. And to my wonderful surprise, you did a whole show on it! I praise Him so much, and I thank you, Dr. Brown for listening to the Holy Spirit.
I’ve never fallen in a church meeting under anything I could call supernatural or by the power of God, however I have been working and experienced a near fall and I believe I can honestly say I believe there was a supernatural connection, or an encounter with the power of God at that time.
At the time I was angry about something, having conversations concerning matters of the heart and the word, and other people at times.Not always are my thoughts right or the things I say right with the Lord and he can move my balance or keep me on a stool. I know he can humble me in many ways even by causing me to have a near fall.
This happened to me. I remember telling myself that I could have really fallen and become injured. It could have been a bad fall.
I know at times I’ve had the blessing of God when I have fallen from things whether a step up on something or a motorcycle. It’s good to have the blessing of God and fall just right and avoid injury or death. God can do that.
I believe he can do a lot of things because we belong to him. He gives me my balance and he can take it away. He can make my feet like hind’s feet
…or not. (Job 39)
Dr. Brown;
First let me say I think you are a stand up guy. So I give you more credibility points in terms or your personal experience than I would many others who teach via broadcast. It was a nice summary and gave me something to think about; especially the comments by J.Edwards. I would love to hear you have a live interaction with Hank Hanegraafft.
That would be an interesting broadcast.
Here is one question and one concern.
Question: Why is it that that falling and shaking is only seen in churches where people are known to fall and shake. That is, in my church I know people are touched by the Holy Spirit, but no falling and shaking occur. This makes me think that there is a role for expectation in terms of how one reacts from one church to the next. That is, what we see in the physical does not necessarily reflect the spiritual. Or can you think of an alternative explanation of why the Holy Spirit works differently in different churches. It seems unlikely that all people who become physically disturbed with emotional impact all end up at the same type of church, with absolutely none of them ending up in the more conservative churches.
Concern: If I were to write another chapter in the “Screw tape letters”, it might be how to get your eyes off the Lord with manifestations. That is, if you can get into a church and turn it upside down with manifestations such that people come looking for more, you have won a victory. I believe it was Norman Geisler who commenting on the subjective once said after a while people stop worshiping the God of their experience[found in the Bible] and start worshiping their experience of God [subjective feeling oriented]. I once heard Geisler say (paraphrase)people will lay their Bibles down and say “now speak to me Lord” when He already has spoken to them in the 66 books of the Bible. We are a very experience oriented culture. That seems to be the new measure of truth.
Lewis,
Thanks for your gracious words. To answer your question, I have actually seen God overpower people who didn’t believe in such a thing and who never heard of it before. I have personally prayed for non-believers who were surprised by God’s power as well as for believers who, in fact, were staunchly against being “slain in the Spirit,” and watched them be instantly overpowered by the Spirit. And I have prayed for people who expect to fall and who think it’s spiritual to fall and yet when I prayed for them, I did not sense “power” coming out from me, and, in fact, nothing happened to them. I have always walked up behind people being prayed for by others (and they were standing quietly), and I gently put my hand on the person’s back (they didn’t see me or know who it was) as I was trying to walk past them, only to see them overpowered by the Spirit. I could go on with examples like this, both here and abroad, but you’ve gotten the point.
As for your last point, I have always preached and taught that the issue is not whether you fall or shake but rather how you live and walk before God. What you are failing to factor in here is that many of these people are being dramatically touched by God, because of which their eyes are on Him much more than before. The Holy Spirit draws people to Jesus, and in countless thousands of cases, I have seen people touched by the Spirit who become much more Christ-centered in their lives.
My perception of your posts is that, with all sincerity, you are looking from the outside at things (in terms of “manifestations”), not understanding what the Spirit is doing, whereas I am talking from decades of eye-witness experience.
In any case, the books I pointed you to earlier contain all the quotes I read on the show, along with many more, and all of it is grounded in Scripture.
Lewis,
Dr. Brown has already interacted with Hank. Even though they disagree on different topics, they are friends.
“Question: Why is it that that falling and shaking is only seen in churches where people are known to fall and shake.”
There are many testimonies where people got touched by the Holy Spirit in a church setting that has never experienced falling and/or shaking.
To summarize it, the first thing is not about manifestations but the fruit of what the Spirit is doing. We need to see/hear about changed lives, physical healing, deliverance from addictions, etc.
Is there a posing of the Hank B. vs. Mike B. interchange? I once discussed demonology with Hank;s then chief researcher, who wanted me to come on the Bible Answer Man and debate whether a Christian can be demonized (as can anyone in the circumstance of giving the devil a foothold). I declined because Hank Hanegraafft’s program can be a setup, where he is both a positional debator and the moderator. I’ve heard him dismiss the opposition just by changing hats. In this sense his program is completely not impartial. What do you think?
Should read…is there a posting of the Hank H. vs. Mike B. interchange?
As far as I know, the only interaction was a face to face meeting.
Folks, Hank and I had a public, unrecorded dialog in late 1997, which was followed up by hours of face to face interaction during three of four meetings in several different locations over the years. Those times together greatly enhanced my appreciation of Hank and his heart for the Lord’s work, despite any differences we may have.
I appreciate the commitment of both H. and B. to truth, but have concerns about H.’s predispostion in certain instances of boarderline anti-charisma views. I read many books over the years about spiritual warfare, of necessity, and find his position on the subject academic and marginal, rather than specific, involved, and knowledgable. What is really telling is his position on the antiChrist and the end times, over which he universalizes the Revelation to the world system, rather than possible future literal economic and war conditions. What lingers for me, is Muhammed the Prophet of the one to come?
“Learn not to go beyond the things which are written” (1Corintians 4:6)
All God’s works are done within the parameters of truth. Scripture clearly defines truth’s boundaries.
1Co 4:6 – ASV …learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.
Proverbs 30:6 – KJV Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Psa 33:4 – KJV For the word of the LORD is right; and ALL HIS WORKS ARE DONE IN TRUTH.
Joh 17:17 – KJV Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH.
Rather than seeing the scrutinizing of scripture for proper context of truth as ‘legalism’ it is in fact ‘purity’.
Pro 30:5 KJV – EVERY WORD OF GOD IS PURE: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
The central core of true Christianity is sanctification.
1Co 6:11 KJV And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
It is also important to check out for yourselves everything that is taught, preached, or written under the header “Christian” to see if it is so.
Act 17:11 KJV – These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Th 5:21 KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I find it useful to use Bible study software to do searches on various subjects. Example: Search out keyword such as shaking or quaking. You will find it simply was a result of fear–many times fear of the Lord. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is ‘self-control’.
There are genuine divine healing, signs & wonders, and miracles, but SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES YOURSELF–BELIEVE NONE OF THE COUNTERFEIT REVIVAL DECEPTIONS!
Did you know that ‘drunk in the spirit’ is actually a curse. See:
Isaiah 29:9-10 KJV Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. (10) For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Job 12:25 KJV They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.
Rich, have you even listened to the recorded show?
Ben KC, it appears he has not listened to the show. Otherwise, why would he be attacking things that I don’t advocate or claiming that a true, repentance-based, Word-grounded, holiness-producing, Jesus-glorifying revival like Brownsville was a counterfeit?
So, Rich, please be kind enough to explain your post in light of this particular broadcast so we can better understand what you’re concerns are.
After further investigating, its possible Rich is a member on Andrew Strom’s forum. “Virtue” is his login name who has been speaking against you on Stroms site. You should find Virtue’s comments similar to Rich’s comment.
Ben KC, my big issue is that folks often don’t deal with the facts but rather with misinformation. And so, people who never attended a single meeting are more expert that people who attended 1,000 meetings, and all positive fruit — Word-based preaching, deep repentance, holy living, disciples made, the gospel preached in purity around the world, Jesus being glorified — all this is dismissed based on either second-hand reports and/or an unusual response by an individual.
Let’s pray for all the good qualities found in Strom’s folks, along with an ability for them to see the wonderful things God has done and is doing.
I’m not able to interact with folks on other forums, but the phone lines are always open on my radio show.
Thank you Mr brown for taking on this topic,to be honest I was really confused about these menifestations.
I can see Andrews concern but I also seehim taking his pointof view on the other extreme.
I have been in services where ten laughing people sorrounded me seeing I wasn’t laughing so all of them lay hands on me,I did not laugh so I was told I had a religious demon,even asking anything about the menifestations we would be called being religious.the whole preaching was about how everyone can prophesy.it was more of a braging then preaching.
Sure was a bad expereince,however it was through your sermon called’called to die’ God really convicted me,to live right n follow him.
N ur right about judging it by the fruit.
God bless
Dear Dr. Brown,
Thank you for dealing with this subject. I sent an e-mail inquiring about Strom’s statements and apparently a lot of other people wondered about his observations also. One wonders if he is trying to use dramatic tactics to sell his book or if he sincerely believes he has discernment on the subject but that is for God to know.
Your statements clarify the issue and for those of us who do believe the Holy Spirit bears witness to what is true and what is a counterfeit, we ultimately rely on that inner witness. Why would anyone try to limit God’s manifestations to their own finite understanding and interprestation of scriptures?
Sandy
Sandy