131 Comments
  1. I, for one, have been asking the questions now addressed here since the format of program blogs extended the opportunity to ask such questions by a radio audience which values the need for this program addressing our culture today. These answers now being a long time in coming to the forefront of opportunity now placed here for their examination–with all of the Hebrew roots movements among the Body–are not untimely or minor matters for our consideration.

    Who is Israel, in light of the offerings of both its original Biblical definition and the New Covenant being brought forth from Israel’s converted to the inclusion of those of the nations, has again stood as a vital question today before us, as such in light of early Ephesians as well as Romans 9-11.

    In Ephesians train of early thought, we find 1:6 cast too within the past sensibility of all belivers’identity once asserted in popular English translation so extending our “acceptance in the beloved,” (of the KJV and some other translations included). This then was once in common cultural mind as the reference of scripture’s inclusion and grafting in. It is important for all of us to begin any dialogue with this in mind on other matters of the administration of the New Covenant being extended, as charged, to the church. It is written that through the church God has extended his plan of the Ages unto mankind.

  2. My Pastor points out only one Biblical example of being slain in the spirit, that of Ananias and Sapphira. Now that is really being slain in the spirit. Any takers?

  3. What does the New Testament define as Israel?
    What are the significant scriptures applying, and how so?

  4. I request prayer here for my family in transit across the EU today, having now missed two booked flights, with ticket losses for three people twice now due to child health issues.

  5. Just saying there is no Biblical precedent for falling on the ground and shaking. Nowhere is such behavior recorded in the Scripture! When the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, there was no falling and shaking. Then there was Pentecost–nope, no falling and shaking recorded there either. God is the author of logic,reason and ORDER.

  6. Lewis, I suggest you keep reading the Bible and see if your statements stand true, OK? Also, you’ll learn a lot through reading my book The Revival Answer Book, which tackles these issues in detail in the Word and in Church history.

    Let me ask you this for the moment. Paul gives a description of a typical church meeting and says this is the right order. Read it and tell me if this is what your church meetings are like:

    1 Corinthians 14:26-32 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

  7. Dr. Brown,

    I am not saying there are no manifestations of the Spirit (tongues etc), just that they have order. I seem to be missing your point. Sounds like Paul is saying the same thing in the quote you gave. No falling on the ground shaking, just manifestaions of the spirit in an ORDERLY fashion. Can you point to Scripture that mirrors the chaotic scenes found in many churches?

  8. not all people stay down and shake for 45 minutes. In services I have been to where people are “slain in the spirit” it has always been during the altar call. the part of the service where people are encouraged to pray to God about what the Spirit is prompting in their hearts, and if they want to receive prayer from others. In other words if a person falls down because of God’s moving on them it is done at a time when it will not disrupt what is going on around them. it is being done at an orderly way it is not causing chaos to the order of the service or to those who are participating in the altar call part of the service. I believe that satisfies the “every thing being done in a orderly way” requirement.

    That being said not every single person who falls down is doing so because of God’s Spirit, but it is presuming knowledge that we don’t have to say that every single case of bing slain in the Spirit is not truely from God. God is free to move on his Children as He sees fit.

    now the Churches I have attended where this happens might not be typical or maybe they are but I have seen that pastors and others pray for others only standing in front of them so that if they do fall it is in the belief that God will keep them from physical harm. also I have never seen such behavior detract from the worship of Jesus or lead people away from the worship of Jesus.

    Since it is done at a time where it is not a distracton from prayer or worship and because it does not lead people away from the worship of Jesus I do not see a reason to oppose it. if it is from God God is using it to minister to his Childern. If it is a person puting on a show it does not help them and that person will know it in their spirit, and it does not prevent you from your own worship or prayer. What we must do is Worship our Lord with all of our hearts, souls, and bodies. if we fall from the presence of our God it is not bad, if we don’t fall we are not any better then our brother or sister that does, and I do not think God will force us to be slain in the spirit if we do not want it to happen.

  9. Lewis,

    First, is the order that Paul spoke of typical of your church service? Does your pastor endorse this as God’s order?

    Second, have you studied any of the great revivals in history?

    Third, are you familiar with Jonathan Edward’s statement, “We ought not to limit God where He hath not limited Himself”?

    Fourth, I’m sure there are disorderly practices that take place in churches, but I don’t throw out the true because of the false.

    Your answers to the first three questions will be helpful.

  10. Lewis, if what you describe is so as such, it is mystery behavior in terms of most concepts of “order” as someone may think it to be. I have never directly experienced such falling down and shaking personally, but recognize that it can represent a sign following the giving of a prophetic or teaching word or other gift to the body. In such cases it would come under the jurisdiction of awe, some call it being “slain in the spirit.” I recognize too that in some instances emotion and suggestion can be active rather than the “Spirit,” where such can then be disorder, not lining up in affirmation of God in a meeting’s midst.

    Dr. Brown seems to be saying, by the quote shared, that such is normative behavior in gatherings, especially so in church history regarding revival “awakenings”; you seem to be questioning whether behavior involving tremoring while reclining, after apparently being so disposed by unseen forces or a force, is disorderly rather than orderly.

    One can find evidence of both in factual reporting of such occurances over the years of church history. One can also find reports of renewal for church spiritual reformation as happens through different means that what you both are discussing. We find both existing in reports throughout church history.

    This is an area of ongoing theological discussion, where there are objectors to revivalist behaviors, and supporters of these behaviors. If such are indeed a sign following the word of God, and are manifestations of God’s awe and presence, then it may be well to consider what is is God could be up to by such temporary results among a gathering. What do such events and behaviors signify, and why? How would they add to faith, ane why? Who would be involved and affected by the quotation Dr. Brown shared, in an immediate gathering context? And when and when not would such give glory to God and his Son?

    In one sense God wants our minds renewed, in a totally different sense God may wish to bypass our usual active mental processes to tell us something about Him; and what would that be, where the scripture quoted is indeed a church gathering related scripture?

  11. Dr. Brown

    My Pastor has no problem with the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. His presence is felt mightily in some of our services. My Pastor will also speak of being led by the Spirit to discuss a given topic. He speaks strongly of intimacy with God. However, my Pastor’s view is that talking in tongues and the like are best done in private or small groups. Why? First because if someone is talking in tongues it takes the focus off the Lord and the teaching and places it on someone else. Second, that sort of behavior may push people who are new to the faith and still finding their way out the door.

    I personally find it to be a wonderful thing that the Holy Spirit can show up, convict people, lead them to the Cross, bath them in grace and forgiveness in an orderly fashion. Falling down and shaking is not a requirement for the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts of men.

    Second question: No I have not studied the great revivals. But if I had, can I say that the behavior should then be regarded as normative.

    Third: “We ought not to limit God where He hath not limited Himself”? I am not trying to limit the unlimited. I am just using Scripture as a touchstone. It can be both a touchstone for what is normative in doctrine and what is normative in behavior. Sense I see NOT EVEN ONE example in Scripture of people falling down and being unresponsive for long periods of time (or even short periods), I must question the validity of that behavior. Is it learned? Is it done because it is expected? Is it mass hysteria?

    Fourth: Churches filled with manifestations are in danger of making the manifestation central and not the Lord. Given the emotional nature of humans as a whole, it seems quite easy for people to get caught up and manufacture an experience.
    There are for example ministries where the teacher is clearly teaching false doctrine and yet people are falling down, crying out etc. Since the Holy Spirit is not going to manifest Himself to support false doctrine, then what are we to make of all the commotion?

  12. Lewis, well said, but you ignored my questions altogether. It is written that every wineskin should be filled with wine, and in the New Testament, New Wine.

  13. Lewis,

    Please show me one verse in the Bible that says that someone cannot be overpowered by the Spirit and flattened to the ground, or that someone cannot shake because of His powerful manifestation.

    There are churches that preach false doctrine and see church growth. Are we therefore against church growth? I could on with an endless list here, but you get the point.

    In any case, I answered a simple question about people being “slain in the Spirit,” and you have simply attacked alleged chaos in different churches. Where’s the connection?

    Also, since I don’t have time to answer most posts here, I would strongly encourage you to read my aforementioned book The Revival Answer Book, along with A Time for Holy Fire. Once you digest that material, I’d be happy to interact further as time permits.

  14. Dr. Brown,

    Since my comments are not meant to be unkind, but only probing, I will attempt to read your books to get a better understanding of your view.

    As to your first point, arguments from silence are obviously the weakest. With a little imagination, One could list all sorts of things that the Bible doesn’t say and declare them valid. When I look for a Biblical touchstone, I look for what is there as a guide, not for what isn’t there.

    I really don’t mean to be difficult, but there is a lot craziness out there. And it seems one needs some way of sorting out truth from error. Your show is a great vehicle for doing this. I feel privileged that someone of your expertise, even takes the time to answer.

    Respectfully,

    Lewis

  15. Lewis, I am perplexed why you have ignored my input and questions here. It has been past perogative that participants here interchange over the themes discussed on the radio. It is fairly rare for Dr. Brown to interchange directly here. There are posted rules on our interchange which address our interchange.

    I was in the Charismatic renewal so-called “Jesus movement,” in the early 1970s, for about 12 to 20 years, depending on how one wants to frame it. I then joined and attended a Presbyterian church for 14 years, helped start a Messianic Minyan gathering, and have been affiliated with a Swedish Evangelical church for almost ten years. I continue with the last two listed church affiliations.

    During the over one dozen years in the Charismatic Renewal, I saw and participated in the Presence of manifestations of God, coming forth after his NT word was proclaimed in our midst. I, indeed, did see many slain in the Spirit, though it was never my direct experience. I can testify that in those instances of observation of this occurring, excepting on very few occasions, judging from all else occurring in the local meeting gatherings involved: what I beheld was of God, was a mystery to me as to the “why” of flattening and shaking, but too that some of those so experiencing were healed of historical physical difficulties, and remarked on having their very hearts touched and converted afresh by these experiences.

    I agree with you, Lewis, that seeking after these secondary products of God’s presence for and in themselves can be problematic, but disagree that one should resist such actions of the Spirit in meetings where the NT has been proclaimed, Jesus has been honored, or other New Covenant realities have been embraced.

    And there is the rub. In the few cases of abuse of such occurrances, it was an abuse of demand or insistance, not of proclamation, or result. There is indeed a fine line between the establishment of an awe of God through affirmations of Jesus the Christ, and the manipulation of meeting behaviors by a supposed minister present. The Holy Spirit has gifts, to give to people, and they populate lists Paul has stated in the NT letters. We are to not, for example, dispise Prophecying, or tongues, when applied in meeting together according to clear guidelines Paul made.

    One element of discernment for figuring out if God is active and not human manipulation through a whip em up pump em up cheerleader is: Does this give glory to Jesus, or to man? Another is to discern if there are other avenues for others to minister according to their own calling and giftedness in the local assembly involved? It is great you have a Pastor you respect, but even He is to yield to the maturation of other believers in the local church occurring, not to either be demanding nor manipulating others to a dependency for their own religious experience and approvals of any agenda involved on him.

    It is scripture, which Dr. Brown has asserted here, which must be the measuring stick of the basis for validity of any such events or manifestations, and then to the glory of God in the Messiah. That God wants our spiritual growth and development is the very stuff of the NT (that Chrsit be formed “in us”). That we are to share Him and not we ourselves is the bottom line on relgious experience in Christ (II Cor 4:5).

    So, where can we embrace what is written as to normal local church experience and not? This would leave room here for much follow-up by us all.

  16. Fruit, meaning changed lives. For example, it could be physical healing, salvation or being delivered from depression and receiving more joy. Is God only limited on how he wants to change lives in a person? Its more about the fruit which will determine what is of the Lord.

  17. Ben-

    If I understand you, you are asking if the fruit that appears after the manifestation attests to the validity of the manifestation. Indeed, that seems like a reasonable test.

    I am constantly looking at the fruit in my own life (not so pleasing I’m afraid) and asking what this says of my roots.

  18. Jabez H,

    Didn’t mean to seem to ignore your comments. I usually don’t have time to interact like this. Today I have been writing a paper and have “tuned in” to the website several times.

    I suppose my question comes down to why some can receive the Holy Spirit in a deep personal way without all the physical manifestations. Perhaps it is has to do with the nature of the receiving vessel. But if this is the case then in any given church some would receive the Spirit quietly and others not. In this case I would say different strokes for different folks. But it seems that in certain churches there is only one way to receive the Spirit and that is to be “slain”. That I find curious. Does the congregation “control” what the Spirit can do? Why when the Spirit comes to my church is there just a sense of Awe, a conscious sense of brokeness and grace, while at other churches people are hitting the floor left and right. It is hard to make the claim that the congregation can control the way the Spirit interacts. So why the difference? I am not ruling out the possibility of the reality of being knocked over by the power of the Spirit, I just don’t understand the lack of uniformity between churches.

    I also believe God is the Lord of order (look at the order/precision in the universe). When I look at some of the Pentecostal videos (even from Brownsville) with people simultaneously shouting, wailing and crying out, the word order does not come to mind.

  19. There is another whole testimony of the spirit in relationship to the prayer closet, for sure. Contemplative Christian Spiritual Guidance and Formation literature abounds, from such groups as Intervarsity Press. This would be a more personal and quiet, yet very present Holy Spirit, which can be cultivated indeed. See the writings of Dallas Willard.

  20. In fact Contemplative Christianity is said to be the discipleship and mentoring movement with the most growth of any leading into this century. The principle is one becomes what they behold (give their attention to), and that one can go to the source, as promised, to hear Him as time is set aside to be pursued. This does indeed require a little effort, yet effort as to practices of yielding oneself to the Spirit of truth and grace, in quiet and confidence.

  21. Lewis,

    I’m glad to answer (even within limited time constraints), I appreciate your probing, I have personally written and spoken against abuses for years, and I’m glad you’ll take the time to read the books.

  22. There were once famous thoughts on stages of human religiousity as well, found in material like M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled. Many denominational believers latched on to his ideas regarding the development of fellowship which may start with insistence for outward conformity to unspoken rules of group behavior, then, step by step lead to inner formation by the Spirit of Christ, where then the outward manifestations became less important than actually knowing God himself, and in a 1:1 relationship. Even such folks in such pursuit however continue to have fellowship one with another. They simply look to Jesus Himself, and how He sought renewal as the model for discipleship. Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father.

    So, over the centuries of Christian experience there have been many scriptural bases for meeting behaviors, individual devotion, hearing the Voice of God to then obey its step by step direction, and as to constant effort extended toward cooperation with the gentle servant spirit of the Lord. Is a public ministry the only calling, or pirmary one, or was it simply the cooperative effort to then later offer his body as the veil to enter the holy of holies for a greater real life equippage to the calling God makes on a life?

    We then can read of contemplative bases for devotion leading to outward ministries rather than vice-versa. Your observations are not unfounded as to asking what does Jesus want of you, as He has formed and made you to be (yet with the NT always sought for guidance, prior to asserting any resulting synthesis).

  23. Lewis, I suggest too that you read my ten sectioned comments in the Je 16th blog, where I address issues of control and demand, which you have rightly discerned as important as to one’s own commitments and lack of losing oneself to a codependent leadership style, where it is unclear where a leader leaves off and a follower begins. Dependency on human leadership, rather than the word and spirit for guidance and personal choices can be a very unhealthy religious reality. Religious leaders may, over time, become what are called “eagle saints,” but they still are human beings, not God.

    We must always keep the goal in mind of getting from where we start with Jesus to where we finish our “race”, and become increasingly like Christ in the process. We simply do not have the Messiah taught Apostles aggressively asserting themselves as to their ministries public profile, in fact their testimony is most often about the suffering involved with the identification with the testimony of Jesus. A power to manipulate is not their testimony at all.

    If we spend all of our devotional time attempting to please a human ministry we will not become increasingly like our Master, but, instead, increasingly of the conventions of our religion. His goal set before us is to “love as I have loved.” Just as Peter begain his conversion with the confession of who Jesus is in Mt. 16, and struggled some years with his conventional Jewish roots, he was changed over time to say what he said in his letters. He is simply not concerned with outward conformity but, instead, with transformation of the inner person for outward result and sacred use when the heart gets right.

  24. Dr. Brown,
    I was wondering why you stopped at 1stCor14:32.
    ..if you continue to verse 39-40
    1st Cor 14:39-40 “Therefore, my brethren,”desire earnestly to phrophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”
    And then we can go back to verse 33 where it states, “for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
    So the Word definitely speaks of order, and not confusion..
    Are these slain in the spirit manifestations based more on church doctrine, instead of scripture? (since you are citing to Lewis to read church revival history.)

    I am also concerned because I have heard of the Kundalini experiences (Hinduism) in which the Guru places his hand on the foreheads of people and they too are infused with emotions similar to those of the charismatics. They may laugh, weep, fall down and shake among other manifestations.
    I know the eastern religion is a false spirit, but how can we be sure that the slain in the spirit manifestations in God’s church are truly from the Holy Spirit?
    I too would like to know where we can justify slain in the spirit in God’s word. I know you suggested your book and shared Jonathan Edward’s statement…but I need supporting scripture in God’s word. I have witnessed these manifestations in small group and large church meetings. Thank you…

  25. 1PE 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

    1PE 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen….

    1PE 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed….

    1PE 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    1PE 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    1PE 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

    “God opposes the proud
    but gives grace to the humble.”

    1PE 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

    1PE 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert….

    2PE 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You can see where Peter headed his own discipleship (as did Paul, James, John, and Jude).
    Even so, the word is heard and understood by degrees, and where “if you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” This really has little to do with outward conformity to religious practices or emphases. But, they still exist as initial experiences and preoccupations for those pulled into the Kingdom by their attractions. The Lord stated, however, that to see the Kingdom it is not meetings which will lead us but being regenerated from above.

  26. Doramari,

    The way to test the spirit is the examine the fruit. Its not about falling, shaking, and crying. Its about changed lives.

  27. #29, D. It is written that Jesus will send confirming “signs and wonders” following the preaching of Him crucified and resurrected, as so affirming his substance for extending the Kingdom testimony, and that He has given gifts to men also affiming Kingdom authority and unique ability (see especially I Cor 12 and read the Acts of the Apostles).

    It strikes me that also in the Old Testament (Tenach) the presentation of signs and wonders confirming the presence of the authority of God over Egypt by his word of power, affirmation of his relationship with his own, and the administration of varied manifestations of his authority are underscored again and again. Go to the histories of the Exodus and the giving of the Law, and events leading up to leaving Egypt and going afterword into the Land Promised: “signs and wonders” are present over and over.

    Let’s see how this carries to the New Testament record from the notion established in the Old.
    Deut 26:8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with miraculous signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey [affirming provision, authority, and a promised inheritance]….

    Jerm. 32:20 You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and [note, this is in the book containing the promise of the New Covenant, yet the statement carries from the Exodus forward as then being present tense as accompanying the people of relationship with Him], and have gained . The NT would then carry this burden of proof over from the Old Order to the New Order (see Heb. 8 and 10 for this fact).

    DA 4:2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me. [Here they are personally impacting Daniel, and protective of Him while upholding even the word of Jeremiah as to intercession Daniel would make for Israel, based on promises made to Israel from Jeremiah as to the length of the Babylonian captivity, and favor while so disposed].

    DA 4:3 How great are his signs,
    how mighty his wonders!
    His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
    his dominion endures from generation to generation. [HERE THE DOMINION OF GOD IS LINKED TO SIGNS AND WONDERS].

    Acts 4:29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus. [A READ OF ACTS SHOWS HE DID SO AS CARRIED FROM THE DELIVERY OF THE GOSPEL TO THE NATIONS BY THE APOSTLES].

    AC 5:12 The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people [all those looking to them in faith of Jesus]. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. [The meeting placement would then carry the old notion of signs and wonders forward to the New Covenant Administration].

    3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.

    As I recently wrote, those observed slain in the Spirit in New Covenant gatherings spoke later of the Spirit cleansing, healing, and touching their very hearts. This then is a continuance of signs and wonders following the giving of God’s word to the Jew first then to those among the nations. Just as the Old administration was upheld into Jeremiah and Daniel, so too the New administration of a “better covenant” is alike carried with affirming signs and wonders. Consider those flattened, and trembling as having received the signs and wonders of confirmation of the word of Grace and Truth as is shared in NT based gatherings. I am sure Dr. Brown can give greater details gleaned from many encountered so slain in his various travels undertaken, and various ministry administrations past made.

    Who but God’s Spirit can suddenly lay someone flat, and interact within them thereafter while engaging in transactions with an individual soul while affirming His unique ability to do so. Who but God can grant the gifts to men found in Romans, Ephesians, and I Corinthians? What then are the testimonies of those who have experienced this administration of a personal sign and wonder from the personal Father in the Name of the Son?

  28. Jeremiah 32:20 got cut off, it should read Jerm. 32:20 You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours…earlier he states that he will provide for his own there.

    It is affirming signs and wonders which carry his authority into present promised territory and peoples in NT gatherings. So, likely the sign and wonder of flattening and trembling–with spiritual interactions within the souls involved at that time–continue the relationship through the unique capacities that are His. Recall too that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to educated people, so said Paul the Apostle.

  29. Doramari,

    There are counterfeit miracles and manifestations for many things attested in the Bible. The Kundalini stuff is nothing new or surprising. Ancient magicians used spittle to heal; the ancient gods reputedly used spittle to heal; Jesus used spittle to heal. Does that mean what He did was wrong?

    Please do take the time to read the books I mentioned if you’d like more information, and consider some of the other wise comments that have been posted here.

    Finally, ask yourself this question: If someone “slain in the Spirit” encounters Jesus more deeply, finds a new love for the Word of God, repents of sin and pursues holiness, becomes burdened to win the lost to Jesus — did the devil do this? The flesh? That’s why we judge a tree by the fruit.

  30. I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit. It is a supernatural confirmation of his word, unless orchestrated by men. I have seen those preaching Christ simply gently touch someone’s head, and waves of the Spirit in gathering places, roll over believers and create this sign and wonder expereince. It represents then an affirmation of Christ’s Spirit being with and among us in gatherings and places.

  31. I am curious, Dr. Brown, what others have observed being the fruit of this signs and wonders experience? Recall that Jesus stated that he who is not for me is against me. Who are we to judge this sign and wonder, and so judge too the Holy Spirit in action. Not wise to state that this is of the Devil, for that would be attributing a work of God to the enemy of God. This is something which Jesus stated put Jerusalem religious leaders in peril of hell fire.

  32. no. 23, Lewis, Elements of your question may still linger??? Likely it is that your Pastor has learned the secret of bringing the sacred meeting ground established at the foot of the cross, now experienced and as to personal devotions effort and rest exerted, from the intimacy of the/his prayer closet into your assembly. In a sense going beyond religious convention beginnings to Messianic completion fulfillments in heart would be the pursuit of some mature and maturing leaders among the flocks and fellowships.

    In the New Covenant we do not have to go back over the rituals of regard under the cultic religious system law, to, for example, get to our atonement, nor do we need to be concerned about initial equipage for service over and over again as it was in Acts 1 and 2. Signs usually follow a sowing of the Word, not so the meat of the word. Signs then confirm the initial and subsequent dominion of the King and the Kingdom, not underscore those of a religious convention leading big groups from stages. This is not to say that those leading meetings cannot be placed on stages.

    What the Protestant reformation initially embraced as vital to a disciple of Jesus to achieve a discipleship relevance rather than a religious convention relevance have not changed. Even those initial movements of establishing the first century doctrine of faith through grace and its foundations of truth sometimes set up religious conventions later in the place of the truth and grace they had first stumbled upon (as their own histories show as a result of first looking from the viewpoint of the prayer closet after finding frustration with the religious convention they had known, and it becoming corrupt).

    Sadly, with the human lust for totality of religious experience, many of the reform foundation movements reverted back to religious convention within one hundred years. May we not do the same.

    Religious convention will not satisfy the soul, devotion to, and knowledge of Christ and Him in Us will. We must go to the Soul Keeper to satisfy the soul.

  33. Sorry Dr. Brown. I wanted to read your books before rejoining this discussion but I had to chime in again after the comments on Kundalini. I had never heard of the Kundalini before. But I found this video to show a fascinating parallel with eastern religions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtVGxJU-j2I&feature=player_embedded#!

    Now since the Hindu practices date back to the year 4500 BCE, can we say that they are Counterfeiting legitimate Christian practices?

    I also ask as you look at the video, does the Word Order easily come to mind? 1 Cor 14:33 (” But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”) While Dr. Brown has pointed out that there is no Scripture that says one cannot fall to the ground and shake, 1 Cor 14:33 does EXPLICITLY And admonish against disorder.
    Again I ask, do the Christian segments of these meetings bring the Word Order to mind or would pandemonium be a better descriptor?

  34. When people fall over, they just really can’t help it. There’s a spiritual force which overwhelms them. This happened to me about 32 years ago when I was alone and in my house, facing my little altar where I prayed at that time. I knew it was from God, but I’d never heard of it before until this show. I vividly recall the sensation of greater force; you just can’t stand with such a force.

  35. Ruth;

    I can fully understand falling on one’s face as as a response to the full force of God’s Holiness. I can understand some trembling and brokenness as we come to grips with our sinful natures in comparison. Falling on one’s face in the presence of the Awesome Holy God seems fitting. But going into a trancelike state and seizure like activity, seems like a whole other animal to me.

  36. Lewis, I have written to address your objections here. I have extended the notion of Signs and Wonders following after the preaching of the word. I have noted that your concern for order is expressed from scripture, but too with other scriptures involving exercising the gifts preceeding that statement of Paul. Paul advocated speaking in tongues, and he advocated prophecying (the latter as the greater gift). Looking at videos of supposed revivial meetins behavor does not suffice for your investigative and lack of comfort concerns regarding being slain in the Spirit.

    You might read of some revivalist history, from the perspective of signs and wonders, of the Presence of God affirming his word, and from the perspective of your concern. Seeing a video stimulates certain feelings in its viewing. My personal fellowship for many years has not been about meetings which exhibit being slain in the Spirit, or about other confirming signs and wonders of the sowing of the Gospel. It has been from those assoicated with the Prayer Closet intimacy of the Holy Spirit in Us.

    I would suggest finding healthy Charismatic and New Testament professing groups and visiting three of these to gain other than media visitation knowledge of the subject. I concur with Dr. Brown’s testimony of the fruit of some being so slain. I have presented scripture as to how it may be assoicated as a sign and wonder following preaching of the word. To get to the “pure milk” and meat of the word one will look beyond such initial experiences, as has Ruth, on to maturation and discipleship exchanges with our Master: in study, in devotions, in fellowship, and in affiliation.

    I have underscored that your affiliation and your reported spirit of its grace (taken at face value as reported from you) is indeed stemming from a prayer closet intimacy with Christ achieved by the leadership of your fellowship. I have not taken to task that apparently the gifts Paul wrote of in Ephesians, Romans, and Corinthians are apparently not implemented in a large measure there. In other words my view of what you report of your fellowship’s order is positive.

    However, you seem to continue to badger the phenomena of being slain in the Spirit as not being in order in fellowships where it occurs. This is simply difficult ground to pursue, and may border on attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the enemy of Christ. Lazarus came forth wrapped in grave clothes. But Lazarus came forward. This certainly was unconventional as to attending those at his home who had gathered there. He should have put on a suit and tie, don’t you think?

  37. Jabez H,

    You wrote:
    “Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father.”

    Please give scripture references where Y’Shua “abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity.” If you are saying that He stopped keeping Sabbath or stopped adhering to Torah we have a problem…He would be an imperfect sacrifice for our sins. So please give some references from scripture to show what you are talking about.

    You also wrote:
    “I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit.”

    These are very subjective statements that you make. It is wrong to start with an idea and then proceed to proof text in order to show that your idea is correct. It should be the other way around. We should get our ideas out of scripture and then make our lives conform to it…not vice versa.

    How can you say that you are sure that there is something written in scripture that you have not read. (“I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign .”) Are you now going to research the scripture to prove that your experience is valid instead of reading what experiences are valid and then submit to the teaching of scripture? So again…please supply the scripture references that show your statements to be in keeping with the teaching of scripture.

    Shalom

  38. Jabez H,

    I agree with you that we should be very careful so as to not attribute real manifestations of the Spirit to the devil, but let us not attribute things of the devil or of the flesh to the Spirit either. We need to be careful what we embrace.

    Shalom

  39. What then is normal and abnormal behavior/order fellowship? What is normal and abnormal spiritual guidance founded in Christ. What is excessive religious convention, and what is orderly religious convention when gathering in his name.

    I would not wish to have to be continuously slain in the Spirit in order to receive inward progressive spiritual guidance in Christ. That would be abnormal, in the stead of reading and studying and applying the Word. I have never been slain in the Spirit. And I have observed it as a phenomena in meetings over many years. When is it thus not of a New Testament decency and order (a Presbyterian preoccupation by the way. I once asked a Pastor at the large Presbyterian church I attended for 14 years what he would do if someone stood up in our assembly and spoke in tongues and interpreted that utterance with understanding in our assembly. He stated he would have the deacons immediately to that person and have them escorted out, give them a warning, and exclude them from fellowship if so insistently participating in its assembly. After this information I sought another church, why?).

    Religious convention vs. openness to the Spirit in gathering is why. I enjoyed the meeting order, preprinted in bulletins, and the reasonable interpretations of scripture for our life application when being a Presbyterian. I did not accept that God be excluded there from advancing his Kingdom through the spiritual gifts Paul clearly outlines in the very scripture Lewis has employed for his emphasis. I was sad to sever my connections there, and wish them blessing.

    I started a prayer minyan to pray for Israel, the Spirit coming to those in Israel, and for the grace of God to contemplatively address all of us gathering together for that intention. It has then narrowly defined boundaries and goals so related. I also attended a Swedish evangelical church and do here in Colorado. All is decenlty orchestrated in order.

    There are indeed excesses and stupors which some embrace in insisting on meeting based religious conventions, whether forbidding the manifestations of the gifts and signs and wonders following the preaching of the word, or not. What are our responsibilities in this regard, and not? Where can we support genuine movements of the Spirit among those gathering, and, if ingenuous, not? Are we the judges and juries of the Spirit, or is the fruit explained here that judge? Do we not continue to have the freedom in Christ do join with his ecclesias pursuing Him, and not?

    Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, let the earth hear his Voice, Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, let the people rejoice.

  40. Jabez,

    Have you read Jonathan Edwards’ 1741 book on the Distinguishing Marks of a move of the Holy Spirit? He sheds further light on the question of what kind of fruit should be expected. I also excerpt some of this in my Holy Fire book, the chapter on The Proof of the Revival Is in the Living.

    Thanks for your comments and insights.

  41. Bo, dangerous or otherwise, shalom indeed.

    I think, in addition to expressing your out of context view on what I wrote, you have arrived here with some pretense. We have had long exchanges elsewhere I am not willing to resurrect here, in this present blog dialogue.

    You quoted me as saying “Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father”. What is the sense I wrote of, Bo?

    A small explaination. In bringing in the New Order (Heb 8 and 10), he was and is the High Priest of its administration, so according to his Atonement accomplishment and the letter to the Hebrews offering access to the Father for adopted children of the Father. The sense I wrote of is about what happened after he offered the “veil” of his fleshly body in this regard for believers to employ as a point of access to enter the holy of holies since the Temple became not vital to outward practices of religious conventions once made by the Priests of Jerusalem. In this sense he has abandoned that religious system’s conventions, ascended to his throne on high, and now gives gifts to people (to men, which is the inclusive noun of women in the NT).

    His next step was to offer his blood as a sacrifice before the altar of heaven, a place he came from and could return to by his ability, an ability we do not have. He then taught and appeared before his disciples, with many proofs, for fortu days prior to the ascension. His messengers at that ascension remarked that this was not the season for Him to restore Israel for its eternal Kingdom reference in the hearts and minds at that point of his Jewish disciples.

    They then had to move on to the Promise, given in the second chapter of Acts (2:38 % 39). He abandoned at that point the old religious conventions for the New. He went to heaven and did not assert his Messianic throne on earth. He “filled the universe” with his being thereafter. He awaits much to return and establish the throne of David on earth as promised (Acts 3:21). He is the King of the Kingdom who abandoned the old religious cultic system to establish a new order, with the old one passing away.

    I do not wish to debate here the nuances of what that means as are expressed in the New Testament letters to followers of Jesus, both among the Jews and among the Nations. I wish to affirm his Kingship and his Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven. Until that Day.

  42. Jabez H,

    I meant no out of context quotes. It certainly looked to me as if you were saying Y’Shua stopped keeping Torah. Just so you know Y’Shua still kept/fulfilled the Torah after He ascended for we know that He poured out His spirit on YHWH’s feast day.

    So how do you reconcile this statement with objective scriptural statements?

    ““I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration.”

    How can you say something is undoubtedly there when you have not read it? We just as well say that barking like dogs, and “toking the ghost” is in the scripture because it is happening in the church and is offered as way to receive something more from the Spirit. Please support your above quoted statement.

    Shalom

  43. Jabez H,

    I come with no pretense, it is not my style. I simply want you to show us how what you say is in line with the scripture.

    Shalom

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