Even though my comment may not exactly fit today’s discussed topic, but it is definitely within the genre of “last day events” which I believe we are now living in, therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to share with everyone this beautiful gem of truth that I discovered within the verses of God’s Holy word.
This gem of truth is so brilliant; it just glows with Divine radiance. It is of national importance for EVERY nation here on this earth! Let me just list some adjectives that describes the resplendence of this divinely inspired truth.
It is my desire to focus the Divine radiance that emulates from this truth upon those that are in the position to enrich all the nations of the world with the blessings that is to proceed from this wonderful gem of truth. It is through this awesome gem of truth that God’s Chosen will begin to fulfill this verse for all living things…
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Here are the verses…
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The key point of these verses is ~ RAIN in connection with worshiping the King and the keeping of the “feast of Tabernacles” unto Jerusalem for the nations of the earth. Israelites have never been in a position to fulfill this verse until they were once again in control of Jerusalem from the 6 day war in 1967 after becoming a nation in 1948.
What does this mean? Rain?
Look at this promise to Israel by God ~ Who is no respecter of persons.
(Acts 10:34 …God is no respecter of persons)
Isaiah 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
It is God’s promise to Israel to turn their desolate lands like the Garden of Eden! Meaning ~ God will bless the desolate lands of the world as He blesses the land of Israel with glorious beauty when Israel and representatives from all the nations of the earth come together to worship him at the time of the feast of Tabernacles! There are vast areas of land in every country that inhabitable for the lack of water! Man and beast are constantly in competition for the small sections of good soil and our earth is being harmed by the destruction of forest around the world.
I greatly rejoiced in this wonderful promise, marveling on how and why did Bible scholars miss this very beautiful world-changing promise? When I examined the entire chapter of Zechariah 14, it seems to reveal that those verses that I rejoiced over as a future event. With my spirit now deflated for the next 24 hours, I reflected on the fact that I did feel the presences of the Holy Spirit in my rejoicing over those verses. With my mind refreshed with known truths, I have now came back to REJOICE!
I feel like what Adam must have felt while he was naming the animals God brought before him and realized that he was missing a blessing.
The Israelites are missing a blessing! They can plant all the trees they like in their land to try to make their land look like the Garden of Eden, but a fire will come and burn them down! It won’t be until they are mindful of the nations of the earth with their water problems and invite them to come worship the Lord with them in the land of Israel will God begin to act on His promises to them!!!
YES, I believe that we can boldly come before the Lord, in the land of Israel, and lay hold of this blessing of rain that will turn our lands like the Garden of Eden FROM THE LORD!!!
BECAUSE…
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
The Riddle ~ the Bible has revealed to us a future event of a Jewish holiday that had been established from the past, but never in the Israelite’s past history were they in the position to fulfill this verse until now. Modern technology has connected all the nations of the earth together.
I knew from my study of the word, that all humans must be physically perfected if they desire to stand before the lord without tasting death. (Leviticus 21:21) But it never occurred to me that the entire earth needed to be perfected too before coming of our Lord until now ~ AWESOME!
Can you understand it now? If God has given us a future promised of rain just for the coming together of the nations to worship Him in the land of Israel, then we can ask and expect to receive that same promise now for He is the same now as He will be in the future!
Please Israel ~ Give Us ~ All the nations of the earth ~ the opportunity to receive this awesome blessing from God as you worship Him during the “Feast of Tabernacles!!!
The preterist position seems quite problematic :/
Good program and thanks for posting Geisler’s notes.
To Pamela – (1) Your post is totally irrelevant to the day’s topic. (2) There is NO way the earth will ever be made perfect again UNTIL the return and reign of Messiah. Period. End of conversation. Sinful man cannot not become perfect or perfect anything else. Only Messiah’s return will perfect and complete this world and those living in it.
Thank you Dr. Brown for a wonderful and important show. I hope you and Dr. DeMar can schedule a full length debate. You both were very professional and kind in your discourse. Blessings! –Amos
The great regard for one another in Christ, and love extended both ways speaks volumes in this interchange. Lovers of Christ indeed discussed their perspectives here. I too will receive with such regard the future debate. You both took debate to the level of Agape’–even when differing on interpretationsm and as to Acts 3:21, where I must agree with Peter the Apostle and Dr. Michael Brown.
Mike ~ The word I used was ‘perfected’ which means to improve or without any flaws. Do a Bible research on that word, then tell me what these verses mean to you?
Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Hi Dr. Brown! Thanks so much for the thought-provoking stuff you bring to the table. 😀 Did i miss it, or did Dr. DeMar never actually address the verses in 2 Peter 3 that you brought up? I was avidly awaiting his response, but he seemed to get stuck on the question of ‘when, exactly, would those prophecies about Israel be fulfilled?’ – which seemed like a red herring to me. (Why would you be required to provide the answer to that question?)
Also, partial preterism seems a far cry from preterism (to me), and I would really appreciate it if you or he could more clearly delineate it. If he believes that Yeshua is going to return again, where is the actual difference of opinion?
It was interesting that you condemned the obtaining of education through secular institutions, since, I thought, you had attended a secular university to get your doctorate(s)- and look at what Abba is accomplishing through you! Surprising the things and people He chooses to use to accomplish His purposes, praise His blessed Name!
Thanks for taking the time to respond (if you do). Blessings!
Moi Meme,
Thanks for your comments!
1) Dr. DeMar did address 2 Pet 3, but not in a way that, in my opinion, lines up with what the text clearly says.
2) My Israel question wasn’t a red herring, since he does not believe that there remain corporate promises to Israel as a nation (if I understand him rightly); at the least, he doesn’t believe that Israel today is a fulfillment of prophecy.
3) My issue with secular academics is when we bow before its altar, not when we use it for God’s purposes. Check out what I wrote about this in my book Revolution, chapter 6.
Blessings!
Thanks for responding, Dr. Brown. Sorry if my statement about the red herring was unclear – it wasn’t you, but Dr. DeMar who brought it up (I thought) and got stuck on it instead of answering the 2Peter 3 question.
At one point, he stated that Gentile believers are engrafted into God’s Kingdom through Israel, but you and I interpreted that to mean very different things. I thought he might actually be Messianic (maybe my wishful thinking), but you felt that he was talking ‘replacement’ possibly?
Please, I have a request. If you haven’t already done so, could you please invite someone scholarly (like Dan Juster) to debate with you about keeping the Law?
I believe, as many of your listeners and respondents here, that we should be keeping Shabbat (what Abba wrote in stone with His own finger – twice! – we should be keeping). Those of us who want to be obedient to Abba out of love and devotion to Him – NOT to attempt to earn salvation – would like to have our viewpoint well-represented in a debate.
I do agree with you that we should not be keeping rabbinic tradition, which seems to be as laden with error as many of the mainstream Church’s ideas are.
Again, thanks for taking a moment to respond (if you do). Blessings! 😀
Moi Meme,
One more quick response. Dan and I are friends and have a little different perspective on keeping the Law, but enough of a difference to debate. I do plan on having someone on at some point to debate this.
Having just completed a 387th (378th?) entry on not being obligated to keep the dietary law in another radio show comments section blog here, I would welcome that debate, if it includes another scholar as to the root issues and any nuiances involved (see the Je 16th comments section). My own position is that of nonobligation since the Jerusalem Council, and the New and Living Way (Heb 10), and changes of order coming with the New Covenant (Heb 8).
If I have any passion left from my youth it is that Christians or Messianics not be reduced to sheep under the law to be then fleeced by those taking up the law’s heraldry along with their own theocracy of meeting administration hierarchy lordship.
When I received faith in the Messiah in 1971 or 72 (and the Holy Spirit) it was my conviction from the start of the relationship not to include awe of the Torah in meeting together in his name, as an everpresent gathering worship symbol or central devotional object. It took some years to find some symbol which honored Yeshua, and His roots, yet put Him front and center as Lord and teacher.
It never was comfortable to go into Messianic gatherings and see much attention and devotion given to a Torah Scroll front and center at some group’s meetings. What was comfortable was talking, learning, and worshiping Yeshua.
Jabez,
You’re quite right. If Yeshua is not central in our services, our hearts, our worship, then we are missing the mark quite deeply — not to mention missing the goal of the Torah.
Dr Brown,
Thanks for doing this short discussion with Dr DeMar and your subsequent show on prophecy. I’ve listened to both but I believe I’ll be listening to them again(maybe several times) and taking notes. I appreciate your insights into this crucial issue of eschatology. I do hope to hear future exchanges with DeMar and hopefully in greater depth regarding eschatology. I like his views on influencing society and the church truly being salt in every sphere of our world but I do not see how being a premill prevents one from doing so. So much more should we affect our culture, governments, etc. if He is physically returning to reign amongst(and building upon) infrastructure that survives the tribulation. I do realize that there can be a pessimistic view connected with premill but it seems that the right perspective of premill should produce great optimism as His Kingdom is coming. Thanks again! PS….yes, it would be interesting to hear more on your(and others’)ideas on Torah keeping. I personally don’t keep Torah but I’ve read some of FFOZ’s writings and recently celebrated a Passover with them and Rabbi Jerry Feldman(and many others in attendance). Keep up the good work! Blessings!
Moi Meme,
You Wrote,
“I believe, as many of your listeners and respondents here, that we should be keeping Shabbat (what Abba wrote in stone with His own finger – twice! – we should be keeping). Those of us who want to be obedient to Abba out of love and devotion to Him – NOT to attempt to earn salvation – would like to have our viewpoint well-represented in a debate.
Sounds good to me, especially after going around in the dietary laws blog. To actually see two brilliant men really deal with what is said in some certain passages could be quite eye opening.
Shalom
Hey Folks,
Just a friendly reminder to all to stay on topic here (which is not Torah observance for believers today). There are enough other threads where that is being discussed.
The subject here is the DeMar interview and preterism.
Thanks!
Shalom! 😀
Dr. Brown, you said, “If Yeshua is not central in our services, our hearts, our worship, then we are missing the mark quite deeply — not to mention missing the goal of the Torah.”
Yeshua said, “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments …‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Mt. 19:17-19 And He said… “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 And He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” John 14:15 And He said, ” He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” “John 14:21
Paul said, “…Keeping God’s commands is what counts. 1 Corinthians 7:19
James: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
When we honor Torah, we honor Yeshua and keep Him “central in our services, our hearts, our worship” because, in truth, He is Torah. “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” John 1:14
Please excuse my ‘going off topic’ – I’m responding to your comment on this page, but will be happy to copy and paste this on the page/topic of your choice. Thank you for your kindness in opening these discussions to us, and your graciousness toward those even in disagreement with you. Through that sweet Spirit at work in you and other dear ones, we are family.
God bless you!
Moi Meme,
In light of your post, why, then, do you not disregard or not obey or find irrelevant many (if not most) of the Torah commandments?
I think, if I understand it correctly, your question is about the idea that even if we want to, we cannot keep many (most?) of the Torah commandments because there is no longer a Temple or Tabernacle, and because theocratic Israel no longer exists as it did when the Law was given at Sinai.
As you know, Torah includes more than the sacrificial Law which Yeshua came to fulfill.
Neither Temple nor theocracy were available for most of Israel’s history, but Torah was always with Israel.
I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, “Israel has not kept Torah so much as Torah has kept Israel.”
What action do we know for sure to take, and what do we keep away from if we reject the Instruction given to us? Yeshua wants us to keep both the letter and the spirit of the Law.
The Gentiles’ faith in Yeshua and learning His will as they became desirous of and obedient in keeping Torah brought them into Israel. Galatians 3:28=There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua. Dt. 31:12=Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear Yahweh your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
As I said before, I agree that we should not be keeping rabbinic traditions, which I liken to many of the ideas that seeped into the mainstream Church. Deut. 12:31-32 You must not worship Yahweh your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things Yahweh hates… See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Messiah gave the right way to Israel, whether we’re biological Israel, or grafted into Israel. What did Yeshua mean when He said to the woman at the well (in John 4:22), ” we worship what we do know”?
In Matt. 5:17 and 18, Yeshua said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Moi Meme,
Unfortunately, I can’t take this up at length here, and it is off topic, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Please start reading the Torah commandments in Exod 21, beginning with the laws of slavery, and explain how you keep each of the commandments that is possible.
I would strongly encourage you to continue to ask the Lord for insight in terms of exactly what Yeshua meant in Matt 5:17-20, along with Paul’s words in Gal 3:15-25, among many other passages.
As a Partial Preterist and former Premillenial Dispensational. Dispensationalism causes way more problem than Preterism. They have Christ reigning for a literal 1000 years after his second coming, they have Christ reigning after he ” swallows death” which is contrary to what scripture says. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authority and power. FOR HE MUST REIGN UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:24-26 ESV) it does not say that Christ will reign after he destroys all his enemies. So as a Partial Preterist it makes sense that we are living in the Millenial time right now Christ is ruling and at the second Coming he will destroy death and then he will deliver the kingdom to God the Father. A dispensational has to twist and add to scripture to defend their position. I believe that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Israel even though many past scholars believe differently. But man has been wrong with the dating of manuscripts. Copies of Manuscripts are not the final authority of when a letter was written.
To Dr. Michael Brown I hope you did not confused Gary Demar Position since Gary Demar is not a full Preterist he is a Partial Preterist. We believe All Matthew 24 was fullfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. That when Christ said “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matthew 24:29 ESV) where signs of coming judgment on Israel. It was not a literal sun turning dark or moon actually turning to blood. Christ is Quoting from Joel 2:28 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. (Joel 2:31 ESV) Which also Saint Peter Quotes from in Acts chapter 2 in defending the speaking in tongues part. Saint Peter was reminding those who knew scripture of coming Judgment. And it’s the same event discussed in Revelation 6 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, (Revelation 6:12 ESV) again if you line Revelation 6 with Matthew 24 it’s the same event. We believe was right when he said Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:34 E
The Greek word for Generation in Matthew 24:34 is γενεα Genea which means generation not race as some had try to pass it as. Which Genos is the word for race not Genea. I know this post is late. Did you ever get together with Gary Demar?
I’m curious if Gary DeMar has changed his stance on Full/Hyperpreterism. When then hyperpreterist Sam Frost point blank asked DeMar if he thought hyperpreterism was heresy, DeMar said “No”. Listen to the audio of him saying it: http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2010/09/nothing-is-heresy-to-gary-demar.html
Many hyperpreterists directly credit DeMar for turning them into “full preterists” because he has been so unclear about whether it is heresy or not.
The writer of Hebrews said that all of the feasts and feast ovals were mere shadows. Jesus is the substance. This modern Zionism is like the Judaizer heresy of the first century. It is my prayer that any nonbeliever turn to Jesus for salvation. Christians should evangelize any nonbeliever as was the practice before Dispensationalidm became the zeitgeist of the day.
Festival (error)
Write more, thats all I have to say. Literally, it seems as though you relied on the video to make your point. You clearly know what youre talking about, why throw away your intelligence on just posting videos to your weblog when you could be giving us something informative to read?
Hi Authentisch,
Thank you for weighing in.
I’m not sure how long you have been following Dr. Brown’s ministry, but he writes extensively. He is due to be releasing his latest book in September, is currently wrapping up his commentary on the book of Job, and he writes 3-5 articles a week posted on numerous websites (Charisma, Townhall, etc.).
If you prefer to read, there’s plenty to catch up on. You can also go to askdrbrown.org, click on latest article, and it will bring you to his articles archive.
Blessings!
-lofradio staff
So to get this cleared out, Matthew 24:34 is referring to the generation that will see the signs prior to Jesus’ second coming, correct? All other views, such as preterists, and the redefinition of “generation”, do not sit well with me.
i became a Demar fan a few years ago thou it took some time for my investigation. Dr Brown i have always enjoyed ur debates whether i agree or not it really makes me dig in the scriptures which i believe makes God smile for us all seeking truth. everyone should watch Israel and Church debate also, very in depth on both sides. thanks Lynn
Even though my comment may not exactly fit today’s discussed topic, but it is definitely within the genre of “last day events” which I believe we are now living in, therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to share with everyone this beautiful gem of truth that I discovered within the verses of God’s Holy word.
This gem of truth is so brilliant; it just glows with Divine radiance. It is of national importance for EVERY nation here on this earth! Let me just list some adjectives that describes the resplendence of this divinely inspired truth.
…beautiful, brilliant, dazzling, excellent, gorgeous, grandiose, heavenly, magnificent, marvelous, majestic, monumental, radiant, remarkable, splendid, wonderful and etc…
It is my desire to focus the Divine radiance that emulates from this truth upon those that are in the position to enrich all the nations of the world with the blessings that is to proceed from this wonderful gem of truth. It is through this awesome gem of truth that God’s Chosen will begin to fulfill this verse for all living things…
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Here are the verses…
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The key point of these verses is ~ RAIN in connection with worshiping the King and the keeping of the “feast of Tabernacles” unto Jerusalem for the nations of the earth. Israelites have never been in a position to fulfill this verse until they were once again in control of Jerusalem from the 6 day war in 1967 after becoming a nation in 1948.
What does this mean? Rain?
Look at this promise to Israel by God ~ Who is no respecter of persons.
(Acts 10:34 …God is no respecter of persons)
Isaiah 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
It is God’s promise to Israel to turn their desolate lands like the Garden of Eden! Meaning ~ God will bless the desolate lands of the world as He blesses the land of Israel with glorious beauty when Israel and representatives from all the nations of the earth come together to worship him at the time of the feast of Tabernacles! There are vast areas of land in every country that inhabitable for the lack of water! Man and beast are constantly in competition for the small sections of good soil and our earth is being harmed by the destruction of forest around the world.
I greatly rejoiced in this wonderful promise, marveling on how and why did Bible scholars miss this very beautiful world-changing promise? When I examined the entire chapter of Zechariah 14, it seems to reveal that those verses that I rejoiced over as a future event. With my spirit now deflated for the next 24 hours, I reflected on the fact that I did feel the presences of the Holy Spirit in my rejoicing over those verses. With my mind refreshed with known truths, I have now came back to REJOICE!
I feel like what Adam must have felt while he was naming the animals God brought before him and realized that he was missing a blessing.
The Israelites are missing a blessing! They can plant all the trees they like in their land to try to make their land look like the Garden of Eden, but a fire will come and burn them down! It won’t be until they are mindful of the nations of the earth with their water problems and invite them to come worship the Lord with them in the land of Israel will God begin to act on His promises to them!!!
YES, I believe that we can boldly come before the Lord, in the land of Israel, and lay hold of this blessing of rain that will turn our lands like the Garden of Eden FROM THE LORD!!!
BECAUSE…
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
The Riddle ~ the Bible has revealed to us a future event of a Jewish holiday that had been established from the past, but never in the Israelite’s past history were they in the position to fulfill this verse until now. Modern technology has connected all the nations of the earth together.
I knew from my study of the word, that all humans must be physically perfected if they desire to stand before the lord without tasting death. (Leviticus 21:21) But it never occurred to me that the entire earth needed to be perfected too before coming of our Lord until now ~ AWESOME!
Can you understand it now? If God has given us a future promised of rain just for the coming together of the nations to worship Him in the land of Israel, then we can ask and expect to receive that same promise now for He is the same now as He will be in the future!
Please Israel ~ Give Us ~ All the nations of the earth ~ the opportunity to receive this awesome blessing from God as you worship Him during the “Feast of Tabernacles!!!
The preterist position seems quite problematic :/
Good program and thanks for posting Geisler’s notes.
To Pamela – (1) Your post is totally irrelevant to the day’s topic.
(2) There is NO way the earth will ever be made perfect again UNTIL the return and reign of Messiah. Period. End of conversation. Sinful man cannot not become perfect or perfect anything else. Only Messiah’s return will perfect and complete this world and those living in it.
Thank you Dr. Brown for a wonderful and important show. I hope you and Dr. DeMar can schedule a full length debate. You both were very professional and kind in your discourse. Blessings!
–Amos
The great regard for one another in Christ, and love extended both ways speaks volumes in this interchange. Lovers of Christ indeed discussed their perspectives here. I too will receive with such regard the future debate. You both took debate to the level of Agape’–even when differing on interpretationsm and as to Acts 3:21, where I must agree with Peter the Apostle and Dr. Michael Brown.
Mike ~ The word I used was ‘perfected’ which means to improve or without any flaws. Do a Bible research on that word, then tell me what these verses mean to you?
Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Hi Dr. Brown! Thanks so much for the thought-provoking stuff you bring to the table. 😀 Did i miss it, or did Dr. DeMar never actually address the verses in 2 Peter 3 that you brought up? I was avidly awaiting his response, but he seemed to get stuck on the question of ‘when, exactly, would those prophecies about Israel be fulfilled?’ – which seemed like a red herring to me. (Why would you be required to provide the answer to that question?)
Also, partial preterism seems a far cry from preterism (to me), and I would really appreciate it if you or he could more clearly delineate it. If he believes that Yeshua is going to return again, where is the actual difference of opinion?
It was interesting that you condemned the obtaining of education through secular institutions, since, I thought, you had attended a secular university to get your doctorate(s)- and look at what Abba is accomplishing through you! Surprising the things and people He chooses to use to accomplish His purposes, praise His blessed Name!
Thanks for taking the time to respond (if you do). Blessings!
Moi Meme,
Thanks for your comments!
1) Dr. DeMar did address 2 Pet 3, but not in a way that, in my opinion, lines up with what the text clearly says.
2) My Israel question wasn’t a red herring, since he does not believe that there remain corporate promises to Israel as a nation (if I understand him rightly); at the least, he doesn’t believe that Israel today is a fulfillment of prophecy.
3) My issue with secular academics is when we bow before its altar, not when we use it for God’s purposes. Check out what I wrote about this in my book Revolution, chapter 6.
Blessings!
Thanks for responding, Dr. Brown. Sorry if my statement about the red herring was unclear – it wasn’t you, but Dr. DeMar who brought it up (I thought) and got stuck on it instead of answering the 2Peter 3 question.
At one point, he stated that Gentile believers are engrafted into God’s Kingdom through Israel, but you and I interpreted that to mean very different things. I thought he might actually be Messianic (maybe my wishful thinking), but you felt that he was talking ‘replacement’ possibly?
Please, I have a request. If you haven’t already done so, could you please invite someone scholarly (like Dan Juster) to debate with you about keeping the Law?
I believe, as many of your listeners and respondents here, that we should be keeping Shabbat (what Abba wrote in stone with His own finger – twice! – we should be keeping). Those of us who want to be obedient to Abba out of love and devotion to Him – NOT to attempt to earn salvation – would like to have our viewpoint well-represented in a debate.
I do agree with you that we should not be keeping rabbinic tradition, which seems to be as laden with error as many of the mainstream Church’s ideas are.
Again, thanks for taking a moment to respond (if you do). Blessings! 😀
Moi Meme,
One more quick response. Dan and I are friends and have a little different perspective on keeping the Law, but enough of a difference to debate. I do plan on having someone on at some point to debate this.
Having just completed a 387th (378th?) entry on not being obligated to keep the dietary law in another radio show comments section blog here, I would welcome that debate, if it includes another scholar as to the root issues and any nuiances involved (see the Je 16th comments section). My own position is that of nonobligation since the Jerusalem Council, and the New and Living Way (Heb 10), and changes of order coming with the New Covenant (Heb 8).
If I have any passion left from my youth it is that Christians or Messianics not be reduced to sheep under the law to be then fleeced by those taking up the law’s heraldry along with their own theocracy of meeting administration hierarchy lordship.
When I received faith in the Messiah in 1971 or 72 (and the Holy Spirit) it was my conviction from the start of the relationship not to include awe of the Torah in meeting together in his name, as an everpresent gathering worship symbol or central devotional object. It took some years to find some symbol which honored Yeshua, and His roots, yet put Him front and center as Lord and teacher.
It never was comfortable to go into Messianic gatherings and see much attention and devotion given to a Torah Scroll front and center at some group’s meetings. What was comfortable was talking, learning, and worshiping Yeshua.
Jabez,
You’re quite right. If Yeshua is not central in our services, our hearts, our worship, then we are missing the mark quite deeply — not to mention missing the goal of the Torah.
Dr Brown,
Thanks for doing this short discussion with Dr DeMar and your subsequent show on prophecy. I’ve listened to both but I believe I’ll be listening to them again(maybe several times) and taking notes. I appreciate your insights into this crucial issue of eschatology. I do hope to hear future exchanges with DeMar and hopefully in greater depth regarding eschatology. I like his views on influencing society and the church truly being salt in every sphere of our world but I do not see how being a premill prevents one from doing so. So much more should we affect our culture, governments, etc. if He is physically returning to reign amongst(and building upon) infrastructure that survives the tribulation. I do realize that there can be a pessimistic view connected with premill but it seems that the right perspective of premill should produce great optimism as His Kingdom is coming.
Thanks again!
PS….yes, it would be interesting to hear more on your(and others’)ideas on Torah keeping. I personally don’t keep Torah but I’ve read some of FFOZ’s writings and recently celebrated a Passover with them and Rabbi Jerry Feldman(and many others in attendance). Keep up the good work! Blessings!
Moi Meme,
You Wrote,
“I believe, as many of your listeners and respondents here, that we should be keeping Shabbat (what Abba wrote in stone with His own finger – twice! – we should be keeping). Those of us who want to be obedient to Abba out of love and devotion to Him – NOT to attempt to earn salvation – would like to have our viewpoint well-represented in a debate.
Sounds good to me, especially after going around in the dietary laws blog. To actually see two brilliant men really deal with what is said in some certain passages could be quite eye opening.
Shalom
Hey Folks,
Just a friendly reminder to all to stay on topic here (which is not Torah observance for believers today). There are enough other threads where that is being discussed.
The subject here is the DeMar interview and preterism.
Thanks!
Shalom! 😀
Dr. Brown, you said, “If Yeshua is not central in our services, our hearts, our worship, then we are missing the mark quite deeply — not to mention missing the goal of the Torah.”
Yeshua said, “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments …‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Mt. 19:17-19
And He said…
“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19
And He said,
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” John 14:15
And He said,
” He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” “John 14:21
Paul said, “…Keeping God’s commands is what counts. 1 Corinthians 7:19
James: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
When we honor Torah, we honor Yeshua and keep Him “central in our services, our hearts, our worship” because, in truth, He is Torah. “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” John 1:14
Please excuse my ‘going off topic’ – I’m responding to your comment on this page, but will be happy to copy and paste this on the page/topic of your choice. Thank you for your kindness in opening these discussions to us, and your graciousness toward those even in disagreement with you. Through that sweet Spirit at work in you and other dear ones, we are family.
God bless you!
Moi Meme,
In light of your post, why, then, do you not disregard or not obey or find irrelevant many (if not most) of the Torah commandments?
I think, if I understand it correctly, your question is about the idea that even if we want to, we cannot keep many (most?) of the Torah commandments because there is no longer a Temple or Tabernacle, and because theocratic Israel no longer exists as it did when the Law was given at Sinai.
As you know, Torah includes more than the sacrificial Law which Yeshua came to fulfill.
Neither Temple nor theocracy were available for most of Israel’s history, but Torah was always with Israel.
I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, “Israel has not kept Torah so much as Torah has kept Israel.”
What action do we know for sure to take, and what do we keep away from if we reject the Instruction given to us? Yeshua wants us to keep both the letter and the spirit of the Law.
The Gentiles’ faith in Yeshua and learning His will as they became desirous of and obedient in keeping Torah brought them into Israel. Galatians 3:28=There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua. Dt. 31:12=Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear Yahweh your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
As I said before, I agree that we should not be keeping rabbinic traditions, which I liken to many of the ideas that seeped into the mainstream Church. Deut. 12:31-32 You must not worship Yahweh your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things Yahweh hates… See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Messiah gave the right way to Israel, whether we’re biological Israel, or grafted into Israel. What did Yeshua mean when He said to the woman at the well (in John 4:22), ” we worship what we do know”?
In Matt. 5:17 and 18, Yeshua said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Moi Meme,
Unfortunately, I can’t take this up at length here, and it is off topic, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Please start reading the Torah commandments in Exod 21, beginning with the laws of slavery, and explain how you keep each of the commandments that is possible.
I would strongly encourage you to continue to ask the Lord for insight in terms of exactly what Yeshua meant in Matt 5:17-20, along with Paul’s words in Gal 3:15-25, among many other passages.
As a Partial Preterist and former Premillenial Dispensational. Dispensationalism causes way more problem than Preterism. They have Christ reigning for a literal 1000 years after his second coming, they have Christ reigning after he ” swallows death” which is contrary to what scripture says. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authority and power. FOR HE MUST REIGN UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:24-26 ESV) it does not say that Christ will reign after he destroys all his enemies. So as a Partial Preterist it makes sense that we are living in the Millenial time right now Christ is ruling and at the second Coming he will destroy death and then he will deliver the kingdom to God the Father. A dispensational has to twist and add to scripture to defend their position. I believe that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Israel even though many past scholars believe differently. But man has been wrong with the dating of manuscripts. Copies of Manuscripts are not the final authority of when a letter was written.
To Dr. Michael Brown I hope you did not confused Gary Demar Position since Gary Demar is not a full Preterist he is a Partial Preterist. We believe All Matthew 24 was fullfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. That when Christ said “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matthew 24:29 ESV) where signs of coming judgment on Israel. It was not a literal sun turning dark or moon actually turning to blood. Christ is Quoting from Joel 2:28 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. (Joel 2:31 ESV) Which also Saint Peter Quotes from in Acts chapter 2 in defending the speaking in tongues part. Saint Peter was reminding those who knew scripture of coming Judgment. And it’s the same event discussed in Revelation 6 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, (Revelation 6:12 ESV) again if you line Revelation 6 with Matthew 24 it’s the same event. We believe was right when he said Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:34 E
The Greek word for Generation in Matthew 24:34 is γενεα Genea which means generation not race as some had try to pass it as. Which Genos is the word for race not Genea. I know this post is late. Did you ever get together with Gary Demar?
I’m curious if Gary DeMar has changed his stance on Full/Hyperpreterism. When then hyperpreterist Sam Frost point blank asked DeMar if he thought hyperpreterism was heresy, DeMar said “No”. Listen to the audio of him saying it: http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2010/09/nothing-is-heresy-to-gary-demar.html
Many hyperpreterists directly credit DeMar for turning them into “full preterists” because he has been so unclear about whether it is heresy or not.
The writer of Hebrews said that all of the feasts and feast ovals were mere shadows.
Jesus is the substance.
This modern Zionism is like the Judaizer heresy of the first century.
It is my prayer that any nonbeliever turn to Jesus for salvation. Christians should evangelize any nonbeliever as was the practice before Dispensationalidm became the zeitgeist of the day.
Festival (error)
Write more, thats all I have to say. Literally, it seems as though you relied on the video to make your point. You clearly know what youre talking about, why throw away your intelligence on just posting videos to your weblog when you could be giving us something informative to read?
Hi Authentisch,
Thank you for weighing in.
I’m not sure how long you have been following Dr. Brown’s ministry, but he writes extensively. He is due to be releasing his latest book in September, is currently wrapping up his commentary on the book of Job, and he writes 3-5 articles a week posted on numerous websites (Charisma, Townhall, etc.).
If you prefer to read, there’s plenty to catch up on. You can also go to askdrbrown.org, click on latest article, and it will bring you to his articles archive.
Blessings!
-lofradio staff
So to get this cleared out, Matthew 24:34 is referring to the generation that will see the signs prior to Jesus’ second coming, correct? All other views, such as preterists, and the redefinition of “generation”, do not sit well with me.
i became a Demar fan a few years ago thou it took some time for my investigation. Dr Brown i have always enjoyed ur debates whether i agree or not it really makes me dig in the scriptures which i believe makes God smile for us all seeking truth. everyone should watch Israel and Church debate also, very in
depth on both sides. thanks Lynn