1. In re-reading some of this, I’m confused, are you wanting to do this “item-by-item” or not? Sometimes it seems like you are, but other times you seem to be chastising me for asking you to present your points so I can address them “demand-by-demand”.

    I’m just really confused.

    Now, if you want me to take your posts and break them up myself, answering line by line, I can. But if I do that, I can’t guarantee I will be doing what you are asking of me. So please help me out with your expectations of what my side of the discussion should look like.

  2. Well, Tom, I’m disappointed. Yes, you have deflected, posted a URL, hemmed and hawed, objected to a writing style which did not please you, and not delt with the specifics revisited in my last post from Revl. 20, point by point. Context, Tom.

  3. Jabez,

    I’m really struggling to understand what you are asking of me, that’s all. What is it you want me to respond to in all of the posts above? I’m just looking for you to help me understand what you want me to say, and I’ve gone back and read the breadth of our conversation only to find that that is exactly what I was asking for in the beginning, too. No hemming and hawing, just pleading for you to set out your questions to me, in bullet points if necessary, in a way that they do not seem to be rhetorical or require an essay in response.

    For example:

    So, I would then ask Tom, why would the present renewal of Israel be linked to promises made of David and Moses regarding the People of the Book in the Land? If Revl. 20:4-6 is involved in these incomplete promises, how is this first resurrection a positive development, as tying into Romans 11s promise of regrafting in for “all Israel”, and Jesus mention of a reestablished Jerusalem, as a national center, for the statement of the nation as to the blessing of the Return, and as to Israel’s salvation (in other passages after the full number of Gentiles come in)?

    This is a big load of a question. Where do you want me to start?

  4. Ok, given that in post #102 you imply that you are expecting a “point-by-point” rebuttal to your post #99 (though in the 2nd paragraph you admit: “And you, Tom, mentioned a more casual approach than a demand by demand approach on this chosen forum exploration instrument.“, which therefore means you are expecting me to interact in a way that you note yourself I preferred not to), I will provide it here.

    Tom, Once again your last URL reference posted has been to present the view you stated you espouse.


    As with other remarks here, it jumps ahead of our step by step agreement on how to proceed.

    No, Jabez, it just provides a little insight into my eschatology approach. You’ve used 1000+ word posts (not to mention recommended we buy an entire book!) to educate us about your views, so I honestly don’t see where you get off berating me for linking a little old article.

    It seems to have clouded an approach in itself to the subject–as to the four areas we are meeting on–for, as I posted earlier, in #71 toward its final statemens of scriptural reference: the section of Revl. 20 involving the Millenniem involved clearly delinniated certain wars before and after its two “resurrections” of stated groups of the dead.

    ? Can you clarify the italicized portion?

    I am not here to represent a pretribulation period “rapture” either, but an examiniation of the Promises given by God to the people of the Land of the Book.

    OK, just to make sure I understand this, your position is that the physical descendants of Abraham have promises that were made to them re: the literal possession of the earthly land of Canaan which are as yet unfulfilled, and that contention is what you are endorsing (as opposed to a particular rapture brand). Is that an accurate representation of your view?

    I am also not here to spend time on who is Judah, Israel, and Ephriam today, as that can involve endless speculation.

    If you are going to use Rom 11 as a proof-text, we had sure better be concerned with the definition of Israel.

    It is clear that we have a State of Israel today, with Netanyahu’s agenda of rediscovering its national Heritage, and so from a so-aligned Jewish Jerusalem.

    I don’t see any continuity between the OT Israel and the political state we have today. Besides, the leadership of the nation is non-Christian and is against proselytizing of Jews (as far as I understand) by Christians, which makes the label of “Anti-Christ” more appropriate than “Chosen Nation”.

    The Greek word used for what happens in the Revelation around the Millennium statement was quoted by me, and, yes, as mentioned too was the citation of the time period.

    Greek word… you mean here? (post 71):

    The identical term for a physical resurrection, ezesan, appears in both the first and second reference, as such most literal and not figurative, where the first is established as precedent for the second.

    Ezesan is the aorist active indicative of zao [ζάω] (this basically just means past tense), which simply means: to live. I don’t know where you got your information that ezesan cannot be figurative, but consider the other uses of zao (in one form/tense or another):

    John 4.10 – Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you LIVING water.”

    John 6.51 – “I am the LIVING bread that came down from heaven…”

    Revelation 3.1 “…You have the reputation of being ALIVE, but you are dead.”

    Just a couple of examples. My favorite is the first (John 4:10) – so I guess you need to explain in what sense the water is literally alive. Also, the same word showing up in vv. 4 and 5 both does not argue for it being interpreted in the same way both times (that is, having identical meaning in both verses). In fact, John actually tends to use turn-of-phrase (i.e. same word different meaning) quite often in his writings. I can provide examples if you wish.

    As for the time period, I personally think it is a mistake to read Revelation as if it has a woodenly strict chronology.

    Of concern is where your [Tom’s] interpretation after poasting 71 reads in a new heaven and new earth to the passage extra to the passage (around an image of a scrolled up defiction of literal events) which does not appear of the passage. In fact it is brought to carry in an interpretive view based on an assumptive communication intention and read into the passage. To me this depicts a prejudicial outlook on what is described, which we agreed to address through the process described.

    Here’s what I see in scripture:
    1) When Christ returns He immediately commences to a’judgin’ (Matt 25.31-32)

    2) Simultaneously, the resurrection of the body takes place (John 5.28-29)

    3) Following the judgment the righteous enter eternal rest/heaven, and the unrighteous enter eternal torment/hell (Matt 25.46, John 5.28-29)

    Now, given that this judgement is the context of the last verses of Rev 20, then the new heavens and the new earth appear in the opening vv. of Rev 21, I don’t think that I have inserted anything at all. If you simply take Christ at His Word, that bodily resurrection of everyone good and evil happens in juxtaposition with judgement (again, John 5.28-29), then note that judgement is immediately followed by new heavens and new earth (as in Rev 21) this would seem to preclude the literal 1000 year holding pattern.

    Now, having said all that, with regard to Acts 3.21: we hear Peter telling the Jews about God “restoring all things”. Consider: in Rev 21.5, God says: “Behold! I am making all things new!” i.e. restoring all things. Now, you take this verse in Acts and insist that it refers to national Israel and the restoration thereof, but I find that to be every bit as much a foreign import into the text as the new heavens and new earth would be. Add to that John’s declaration that “making all things new”/restoring all things = a new heavens and a new earth and I find my interpretation of Peter’s meaning in this passage to be far more exegetically sound than yours, which is brought to carry in an interpretive view based on an assumptive communication intention and read into the passage, and I must say that to me this depicts a prejudicial outlook on what is described.

    And you, Tom, mentioned a more casual approach than a demand by demand approach on this chosen forum exploration instrument.

    Again, yes I did, but I just can’t figure out how to work that out since it seems pretty obvious that nothing less than this “point-by-point” rebuttal will satisfy you (see post #102).

    I will not chase other URLs as rabbit trails to that endeavor which we agreed upon.

    And again, no one asked you to read my link. It wasn’t meant for you.

    If you wish to bring in some argumentation you read elsewhere to this dveloped discussion so be it, but, fatihfully so here item by item, not as, once again, a blanket approach to all details specifically raised to be addressed.

    Count on it.

    This fails our agreement in principal and fact. It is not faithful to the step by step apprach agreed to.

    What agreement? I said I’d dialogue with you, and assented to certain suggestions you made on how to do it, but you keep (in every other post almost) bringing up “the agreement”, “what Tom agreed to”, “our agreed upon methods”, on and on. When you actually throw out a question to me instead of speaking generally (and for all I know rhetorically) I will be happy to answer – but until there is something tangible directed at me I have no idea what you want me to respond to.

    Your other objection was the literal reference to one thouseand years as is given in the passage. You compare this with doubt to another letter literal reference of 144,000 from an earlier portion of the Revelation (by the way, which you did not state or cite what is revealed there indeed as to 12,000 of each of the tribes (X12) granting this number).

    Right, being dogmatic about the 1000 years would almost inevitably equate to necessarily being dogmatic about the 144,000 – except that you’re not a Jehovah’s Witness so this would be tough.

    The latter reference again, is taken totally out of context and is dismissed with prejudice as well. We are dealing with the redemptive nature of God, his Christ, and the events around that throughout history, which will require some spedcific cues from the passage and our attention for understanding these in the history of God’s working out of redemption.
    I am not here to defend those numbers, as they are given by a heavenly vision to John. Clearly, for point of reference, the 144,000 of the vision differ entirely from “a great multitude”, who wash their tobes in the blood of the lamb, which is not numbered of another passage for good reason. Whether or not the 12,000 from each tribe is literal remains for Jesus himself to count, as given, not for my own arithmatic. Why should I doubt the capability of the Creator to seal a certain number of Jews for a time period for holy service and special mission, as “virgins”? These descriptors do not limit or permit God’s own actions by the application of human doubt or count of any literal nature of their depiction. Your prejudical approach to the passage does.

    You seem to be equivocating here.

    Later, in the picture at the end of the heavenly Jerusalem, we have each tribe in relationship to the gates into the city, and the 12 Apostles too with certain foundational roles of its establishment. Should I, by the logic used, doubt their literal number applying to the gates and foundations as well?

    You’re going to shoot me for this, but: yes. Actually, you should question that this passage is talking about a literal, physical Jerusalem at all. Spiritual Jerusalem? Ohhhhh, yeahhhh.

    If we are dealing with the supernatural actions of the Redemption of our Savior, including a Return as “He left” in the clouds, why the poo poo of a literal number of a season of Messianic reign on earth as is stated to complete promises given Israel in its present literalness or presentation in our time by the actions and agreements of the Redeemer?

    Very simply, because what we have in Revelation is a piece of apocalyptic literature that was never meant to be interpreted in a strictly literal fashion, as opposed to the Gospels, etc. You have to consider the medium. For example, when Joseph was interpreting pharaoh’s dream he did not say “I think you’re going to have some skinny cows and some fat cows and some cow-cannibalism.” No, he recognized that the cows in and of themselves had nothing to do with the truth that was being communicated, but were indicative of it… if rightly understood. If he had interpreted that dream literally there would have been some very hungry Hebrews doing their own cannibalism thing 7 years later when the food ran out.

    I cannot reduce your interpretation to what you have read into the passage and dicover the true maening or value of it in context.
    Taking one portion of scripture, or of the Revelation literally, as you may for example of seven churches in the then presenting political world of Roman emperor worship, would be far removed from such a reference’s intentions, as we are so cued by the Greek cited in #71.

    As you said, context. The context of Revelation is spiritualized symbols – thus, literalism fails.

    Not only that, but when you mention the churches you need to keep in mind that at the beginning of the Revelation Christ tells John to “write down what you see and send it to the seven churches…”, so right away what John “sees” and the seven churches fall into two distinct categories.

    Category #1: Things that are shown by the text not to be a part of the vision – i.e. the 7 Churches

    Category #2: Things that are shown by the text to be a part of the vision – i.e. What John “sees” that he must send to these churches (such as the 1000 years)

    The seven churches are not what John “sees”, but the thousand years is, and these two are differentiated, again, in ch 1 vv 11. Therefore the 7 churches are fair game for literal understanding – that as distinct from John’s vision, which is not subject to the same methods of interpretation. In this way you can have both literal and metaphorical things in the book of Revelation and not subject all things to the same rule of literal vs. non-literal that you have tried to establish.

    Further, I have already dealt with your little foray into Greek Koine, and it is not as much of a home-run as you seem to think (or have you figured out how water is literally living yet?).

    And I am not here to say whether the Millennial number of years of rule is exacting, or the number of those used for holy purposes of the tribes when confronting the spiritual enemy of Christ is exacting, but, a first and second resuurection are certainly depicted as so–linguistically, as to the people groups described (covered in my #71), and as to separating actions of war against the placement involved.

    Again, it is not a linguistic slam-dunk.

    Also, the references to the resurrection in the Gospels and epistles seem to indicate that the bodily resurrection of the good and evil will all happen at once – so how then does this one section of Revelation overturn all of that evidence?

    It is too descriptively exacting to ignore it as meaning something else entirely than what it states.

    Just because something is described in exacting detail doesn’t then make a case for a literal interpretation. When Daniel was in the dream-interpreting business the king’s statue was described in pretty specific ways, but the interpretation itself was not literal (would you disagree?).

    If the battles around its account are only sysmbolic too, why be so exacting in descriptions?

    Again, detailed description does not a literal interpretation make. It is a leap of logic to assert such conclusions.

    We could carry the lack of faithful passage exegesis you gave, Tom, into all the New Testament and come up with a symbolic or figurative historical Yeshua, doubt the Almah birth meaning of a virgin, dismiss him because his character was Immannuel, not the literal Name he received, etc.

    Um… no. See, the Gospels are written as history. Revelation (specifically the vision portions) are written as allegory (sometimes called apocalyptic literature). It’s all about the genre.

    Or do you think Jesus is literally a baby sheep with weird ocular characteristics?

    No, Yeshua was sent to Irael, and for its consolation, to which he referes of concern while he is absent over time in Mt. 24-25 as “the least of these, my brethren”. Not only do we have to interpret both literally, and descriptively, we do not have the right to dismiss and add too the character or exacting actions, means, charges to the faithful, and results of the savior’s considered realtionships to him being the Word of God, which overarches the Revelation in fact and deed.

    I’m not really sure what this means, so maybe you can clarify lest I answer to something you’re not saying?

    Go back to the 20th chapter, in fact to other sections of the Revelation, where figurative reality is cast, as well as literal reality. What would we do with the drama of the 11th chapter without some confirming detailed information in historical placement–make it all figurative, e.g. one of those witnesses killed being the word of the Old Covenant, the other the Word of the New? Why lay in the streets of the city for a figurative consequence?

    I refer to my previously given answers in this post, which apply to this as well.

    No, the entire Revelation is about the named Word of God person, and his considered actions extended to certain named people in the setting surrounding his orginal story, but too as correlating with the future promises and language of the Prophets, and the literal timeline of Daniel which also surrounds the Nation’s history. This is complex and detailed, anc needs our step by step examination for God’s own faithfulness to his Word.

    Hmmm. I trust you will elaborate on this as the discussion continues.

  5. As a P.S. , I’m really curious. Do you mind if I ask a personal question?

    As I’ve said, I could care less what someone’s eschatological views are, and I really haven’t spent a ton of time on the subject (ok, little to none). I don’t see it in any way as crucial, and I think I’ve said it more times than necessary and people are probably getting tired of it.

    That said, from your vigorous interaction so far, it really, really seems like you have a dog in this fight. If you don’t mind me asking, why is that? Why do you want so badly for a rebuilt temple, nation of Israel-centered eschatology? Just really, super curious.

    Take care!

  6. This is the question concerning the book of Daniel that I really need to understand before I can move forward.

    Jabez–“We have to acknowledge that Messiah was cut off, as Daniel stated”

    Yes, we do have to acknowledge that, however, considering the element of the 3 and 1/2 yrs. of a 7 year prophesy, there is no way to fit an extra “7” added to 3 and 1/2 years. This is where the language expertise of Dr. Brown, as to whether, or not, the seven year covenant spoken of is made by Messiah, or, as most hold, by antichrist. There are “two” princes spoken of back-to-back in these verses. The Prince making the covenant with Israel and being cut off is clearly Messiah’s crucifixion. Did He feed “only His sheep” for another 3 and 1/2 years BEFORE salvation was extended to the Gentiles (?) , Dan. 9:27, which is how it reads to me, is of major import to settle before moving on with Daniel’s prophesies of the Statue of Historical Nations, let’s call it. Will a future fulfillment follow the near/far formula of prophesy, or, will it mirror, though showing a “false” image of the true, the same event? The language and exactly “who” it is making the seven year covenant is dire to properly dividing the Scriptures. And “the people of the prince which came” Dan 9:26, was the Roman Empire. They certainly “made it desolate, even to the time of the end”, (the time of the Gentiles fulfillment?) and, “that determined” (by the Lord) “was poured upon Jerusalem” in 70ad. Dan 9:27 The beginning of the Prophet, Micah in chapter 5: 1-5, describing the Messiah, and then picking up with a mysterious “Assyrian” doesn’t fit his time frame of prophesy, as it was the Chaldeans who treated Zedekiah and the princes of his time with similar contempt. I’m not sure we can make assumptions on a future Syrian, although, I’m open to further proof if it’s available.

    I love to read the “minor prophets” and I wish they wouldn’t call them that simply because their prophesies are short. They may be short, but, they are chock full of important prophesies and I think we are in the time frame of Micah 5:3, with Jerusalem having been given up until she is now struggling mightily to bring forth the rest of her children in Messiah. The remnant of Israel’s brothers are returning, but, Israel doesn’t particularly want “Christian” brothers, per se. Micah 5:4 equates with many, many verses stating the same. “for now shall He be great unto the ends of the earth.”

    Micah 5: 7-8. Who is this “remnant of Jacob” among the Nations, “distilled (settled lightly) as dew is upon blades of grass”? Who is this “young lion” who is able to break in pieces other nations? Who is poised to act and “that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.”? Our Lord is working to bring about His will on earth as it is in heaven. And all of Jacob’s enemies shall be cut off. 5:9.

    A general idea gathered from prophesy is that the Lord will not return until the “one whose workings are after Satan” has shown up with all conceivable lying wonders”, “false signs and miracles” mirroring the true.

    Mic 5:15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. Isa 63:1, and the promises that in good time, God will repay those nations who went way overboard in their treatment and slaughter in the time of Israel’s calamities, Obadiah , to which “the Lord has indignation forever”. Especially toward Edom, the nation of Jacob’s brother and of Esau’s decendents. Isa. 34:5, Isa 34:16 “Seek and read from the book of the Lord:”; Obadiah 1, Jer. 49:14-16, Eze. 25:12-14. Matthew Henry says. “See to what unnatural instances of malice the enmity that is in the seed of the serpent against the seed of the woman will carry them.” Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst Zec 14:5 : and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. (That can only be after we are gathered to Him at His coming; the Parousia)
    Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark:
    Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. (A day known only to the Lord)

    And considering the fall feasts; we have the “ten days” tribulation in the book of Revelation as coinciding with the “ten days of Awe” in the feast of Trumpets. If we are not gathered until the “last trump”, I see no way we are going to escape the previous trumpet blasts.

    If we had someone who understood the meaning of the trumpet blasts better, we could break down the prophetic implications of it.

    Like the first blast would be–“pay attention, something is up.” “Wake up out of your sleep, you sleepers.” The second would be a “call to assembly”. “Assemble yourselves and hear.” And so forth and so on. “And all the more as we see the day approaching.”

    If the near/far formula for prophesy holds in the book of Revelation, then, we should expect to see it and I think we do, with one additional formula of “an event, and then a look to the end of those things”, “another event, and then the end of those things”, and on and on until we are given the end of all things and the end of the Millennium with the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven. The Son is once more subject to the Father, or, as I see it, He returns to dwell in the bosom of the Father, and God is once more “all in all” and we are “tabernacling” with Him forever.

  7. Oh yeah. I forgot Gog and Magog who Satan is able to assemble for his last Horrah and attempt to battle God. At which point, immediately after the Millennium, FIRE WILL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND COMSUME ALL OF THOSE WHO CAME WITH HIM.!!! And then, Satan will forever be tormented in the lake of fire, “prepared for him and his rebellious angels.”


  8. Tom,

    Acts 1
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Who is Israel above? What did the apostles mean when they asked? Israel is Israel…all 12 tribes. They new the promises in scripture of the regathering in the last days when YHWH’s chosen would return to obedience to YHWH with all their hearts. (Deut. 30:1-6)

    Messiah did not tell them that this restored kingdom to Israel would not happen. He did not say that the plan had changed and that the 12 tribes of Israel would not be regathered. He said that it was not for them to know the timing of things that YHWH retained for Himself.

    I’m not sure that you know this, but the Jews will not accept Y’Shua as messiah for the very doctrine you hold. The scriptures are all too obviously full or a physical reign of the Biblical Messiah. They look at Y’shua as a pretender because of this. We get a hint of this in the apostles question above. They are saying what about all those prophecies about a conquering, kingly Messiah. The Jews today say the same.

    We have seen Messiah ben Joseph, but Messiah ben David is absent as of yet. Quite simply Y’shua Messiah has not fulfilled those prophecies…yet.

    The new heavens and earth will have no curse. The millennial reign will. When is the interval of time when the passage below will be operable? The amillennial view would place this in the here and now…I think…so are you up for it?

    Zechariah 14
    16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Ezekiel 11
    14 And the word of the LORD came to me:
    15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the LORD; to us this land is given for a possession.’
    16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.’
    17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’

    When did this take place?

    Ezekiel 37
    19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    When was this fulfilled?


  9. Who are you answering to, Bo? If it’s me, you must not have read post #70.

    I’ll try to outline it better.

    Do I believe Israel will reign over their enemies, yes. But, there are quailifying statements made by the Lord, Himself, stating specifically that the heads of the twelve tribes will be the Apostles in the Millennium. That’s all I said.

    Bo–“All this was started by me quoting Acts and Romans. Is there a time that the kingdom will be restored to Israel? When is that time? Has the Church replaced Israel? When is the Day of the YHWH/YHWH’s day? Is Messiah going to rule from Jerusalem?”

    I’ll answer more clearly these questions. The only perspective I can use is my own as we’ve not yet even begun to talk back and forth. This is for discussion and that’s what I’m doing. I can only respond the way I read it. If someone sees and error and is kind enough to stear me right, I’m open to that, more than open to it.

    Yes, I believe the Kingdom will be restored to Israel with Messiah as King of the Earth reigning for a literal thousand years.

    That time is after the “false Messiah” has appeared, worked his lying wonders, miracles and has fooled many people into worshipping him as such. This seems to indicate a three and one half year time span.

    The Church has not replaced Israel.

    The Body of Christ is the Church. We are dealt with separately. The Body of Christ is gathered to Him at His appearing. This is the time of the last trumpet, whenever that is.

    The Millennium begins when Christ appears. There are natural and glorified people on earth during the Millennium.

    Jerusalem is the city of the King, with Israel’s promises to her being fulfilled during this time.

    It appears peoples lives will be greatly extended, but, it says, there will still be some who are “accursed”.

    The nations who came against Israel, will come up for three feasts of the Lord, otherwise they will have no rain and maybe other discomforts as well.

    Israel will reign over their enemies because the Lord has spoken it, so shall it be.

    They will recognize their Savior as Jesus of Nazareth and cry out for Him before He will return.

    Does that help?

    If you have specific questions, can’t you just ask me kindly rather than shreading me?

  10. I beg your pardon, Bo. I don’t know how I missed
    Tom’s name at the top of your post.

    But, can’t we be more polite anyway? Ok, I’m just of the weaker female, but, can’t we be more respectful to each other?

    Because if the tone keeps going like it is, I’ll just give it up because I really don’t want this constant conflict that never subsides.

  11. Thanks, Tom; and let’s all of us agree. Ok, I’m moving on.

    I’ll be glad to site the Bible verses which speak to my view of these things if you need me too.

    That would probably help, so, let me get them together and I’ll post them later. I’ll just do a short heading, then site the verses under it.

    I’ve been praying for you, Jay, and I hope things are improving.

  12. Sheila
    January 7th, 2011 @ 9:51 am
    “If we are not gathered until the “last trump”, I see no way we are going to escape the previous trumpet blasts.”

    I should have qualified this statement, as it seems the Lord will mark us for distinction against these by putting His seal on us. Just as He marked the children of Israel in Egypt against the last plagues. It could also be, that as the Bible states, it is our faith that distinquishes us, by having the blood of the Lamb covering the door of our hearts. There is much evidence for this in the NT. Also, the Lord knows who are His.

    I’m open to discussing that part of it. Will we not be tried? Or, only so far? Will we be absolutely set apart and so be a target? It seems in many ways, it’s already come to that. If need be, I’ll run to the chopping block! And I’m taking you guys with me!

    I’d like to hear others ideas on that.

  13. Jabez H.
    January 6th, 2011 @ 5:05 pm

    “I am not here to defend those numbers, as they are given by a heavenly vision to John. Clearly, for point of reference, the 144,000 of the vision differ entirely from “a great multitude”, who wash their tobes in the blood of the lamb, which is not numbered of another passage for good reason. Whether or not the 12,000 from each tribe is literal remains for Jesus himself to count, as given, not for my own arithmatic. Why should I doubt the capability of the Creator to seal a certain number of Jews for a time period for holy service and special mission, as “virgins”? These descriptors do not limit or permit God’s own actions by the application of human doubt or count of any literal nature of their depiction. Your prejudical approach to the passage does.”

    I see no reason to doubt this number as literal and in keeping with Israel’s command to “declare His name to the ends of the earth.” This will be the fulfillment of that. Also, in the language of “for they are virgins” could mean, that they have not gone a whoring after other gods, more specifically the “false messiah”, so, it makes sense in that respect. God is the master of metaphor and while the number is literal, I see the virginal aspect as metaphorical. They are not in bed with “the whore” in the Revelation.

    I also can’t help but see the imagery of the language as it is “from heaven looking down” on earth. The ultimate in “on earth as it is in heaven.”

    And that the mercy of the Lord would endure even for another thousand years after He comes, is in keeping with the Lord not wanting any to perish, but, for all to come to repentance. That some will still not repent, is pretty clear.

  14. Tom, I will get back with your considerations soon, I have had to aid my 9 year old in a special way this past week.

    You asked “Why do you want so badly for a rebuilt temple, nation of Israel-centered eschatology? Just really, super curious”.

    Because twice in the Tenach God refers to himself as Father, once for Judah, once for Israel.

  15. Sheila,

    I was not shredding anyone. There are just some pretty obvious verses that Tom is sweeping under the rug. He needs to answer them straightforwardly. He said that he thinks that the only thing left to happen is the return of messiah at the end.

    If the millennium is now, then he should be keeping the feasts, new moons, and sabbaths. If it is yet to come, then his doctrine is error and his idea that Messiah already fulfilled all the prophecies is simply man made tradition that turns from the truth.

    He doesn’t want to answer my questions. They are to damning to his approach to this topic and that approach is the foundation of his antinomian stance. Though he says he has no dog in this fight, he has wagered most of his chips upon a dog that is against sound doctrine.

    Let him answer the above questions in post #108 if he is not being coy and pretentious.


  16. I think the following verses speak well to the Lord regathering the remnant of Israel, which we now see Him “bringing again their captivity”, and of His promises to save the remnant of His choosing. And Zion shall be a praise in all the earth, for it is the city of the Great King.

    This also answers, in part, to them recognizing Jesus as Messiah. This may help us to see the hand of the Lord in bringing this to pass and to increase our understanding of the Church as distinct from Israel. The Body of Christ will not be cast away as the Lord gathers Israel in fulfillment of His promises to them. Our blessing is through Abraham, by faith, their blessing will come when they, too, recognize Messiah. Then the Lord will bring to pass the promises made to Jacob’s decendents. They must first cry out to Him as in Luke. Luk 13:35 “Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’*”
    * Psalm 118:26

    Rom 11:26 — And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Isa 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord.

    Isa 11:11-16; Isa 45:17; Isa 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23; Jer 30:17-22; Jer 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; Jer 33:24-26; Eze 34:22-31; Eze 37:21-28; Eze 39:25-29; Hsa 3:5; Joe 3:16-21; Amo 9:14,15; Mic 7:15-20; Zep 3:12-20; Zec 10:6-12
    Psa 14:7; Psa 106:47; Isa 59:20

    As for Tom not seeing certain things as we do, perhaps it’s because that’s what he was taught. We are here talking about it because he agreed to join us in this forum. He’s already stated that he doesn’t know if it’s detrimental to slavation. I’m not sure it is, but, I feel inclined to point him to the truth of scriptures that speak to these things. The Lord doesn’t expect all of us to be in the same place in our understanding of the wider picture. It’s enough to fear God and to depart from evil while clinging to Christ and living for Him. The Lord loves all of His children and He will be gracious and merciful to them.

  17. Bo,

    I said I have nothing more to say to you until you call the show – and I meant it. It’s pretty easy to be a firebrand sitting behind the anonymity of these posts, but if you really take yourself and your doctrine seriously, there’s no reason not to call and preach it on the broadcast. Think about it, you can reach a much larger audience with your message of return to the law if you call (think about it, would Ezekiel have been content with just posting here and not also calling and correcting false doctrine if he had the chance?).

    Tell you what: sit down, compose a list of 3 points that are your strongest for us being under the Mosaic law today, find a portion of scripture or two to support each point, then rehearse your case for a couple of days. Once Friday comes, call the show and present your 3 point case contra Dr. Brown – surely with a little time to prepare and 3 whole points of support for your doctrine backed by Biblical texts you can’t fail to convince many of their need to return to the law, and blow Dr. Brown’s socks off.

    Or… keep ambushing people on these boards, witnessing to a fraction of a fraction of the people you could on the broadcast, who have already decided firmly what side of this issue they come down on, who you are only wasting your breath trying to convince. Why throw you pearls before swine? Go for the big fish.

    Call the show.

  18. Tom,

    I’m glad you noticed that my posts to you are casting great worth before…you said it, not me. Do not answer me, answer the scripture I posted. Show how those things above are somehow fulfilled or are never going to happen. My calling is not radio. So don’t hold your breath.

    Jabez. H and Sheila,

    Would you mind asking Tom the questions I asked…for your own sakes. If he has no good answer, there is no use in continuing this dialogue.


  19. Me–“The nations who came against Israel, will come up for three feasts of the Lord, otherwise they will have no rain and maybe other discomforts as well.”

    I had Deut.16:16 in mind when I wrote this. Zechariah says only the Feast of Tabernacles are required in the Millennium. I don’t see any evidence for three feasts. Zec 14:16 — And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    I’ve just recently started using the NIV translation of Scripture. My mind automatically translates the KJV into modern English, and while I switch back and forth between various translations, I’m looking for one I can stick with. Tom, I think I remember you preferring the ESV, but, I don’t know where I got that notion from. (?) Dr. Brown answered a question for me, not that long ago, so, I’ve moved to the NIV because I already have that translation. I use software for studying, so, it’s easy to switch around.

    When we are gathered to Him at His “appearing”, in the twinkling of an eye, the dead in Christ together with those of us still alive at His coming, will be instantly changed into His image. We will receive glorified bodies like His.

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Phl 3:20-22 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    The most important scripture to consider in the setting up a literal Kingdom, is this:

    “For He shall reign until all enemies are put under His feet, the last enemy to be put under His feet is death.” 1Cor 15:23-28.

    Psa 2:8-12 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (It makes perfect sense to me, that all of us who put our trust in the Son now, will enjoy special blessings.)

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    So, it seems impossible to rule over people if all things were settled at His appearing. And how would we be reigning with Him, if there is no one to reign over? For He will give to each of us our work to do when He comes.

  20. And, Jabez uses the NIV, so, we can better see what’s said in each translation. I don’t see where they vary that much, but, from the KJV, there is much light shed on the meaning, thus, opening up the Scriptures.

  21. Sheila,

    Isaiah 66
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    Ezekiel 45
    21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
    22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
    23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
    24 And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.
    25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.

    Ezekiel 46
    1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
    9 But when the people of the land shall come before the LORD in the solemn feasts, he that entereth in by the way of the north gate to worship shall go out by the way of the south gate; and he that entereth by the way of the south gate shall go forth by the way of the north gate: he shall not return by the way of the gate whereby he came in, but shall go forth over against it.

    Do you think that these are speaking of the time of Messiah’s earthly reign?


  22. I see Isaiah 66 as the same as these:

    Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Ezekiel–It certainly sounds like the Prince officiating, so, Millennial, I’d say.

  23. Sheila,

    This just seems like the lead up to the Millennium, with Israel coming into existence and judgment coming to those that ignore Torah and continue to walk in unclean practices. (vs. 17) The new heavens and earth seem to be in the future in vs. 22. It doesn’t seem like we will be looking at the carcasses of the transgressors when all things are made new.

    Isaiah 66
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
    11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
    12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
    13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
    14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
    15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
    17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
    18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
    19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
    20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
    21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    So I look for all the sabbaths, new moons, and appointed times to be part of Messiah’s earthly kingdom. Of course I think that they are also for us to participate in now. There seems to be no room for a period of time, for the amillennialist to have his cake and eat it too.


  24. I don’t have any problem with the law being reinstituted when Messiah rules from Jerusalem. He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will bring righteous judgement and justice to the Nations.

    I stand by Grace. I don’t see where those left of the nations will have that option. The time of Grace will be at an end when He comes.

  25. Sheila,

    I see the whole of history as a time of grace…and I think that the millennium will be a time of grace also. The rod of iron does not undo grace, it brings direct rule instead of indirect rule. The passage in Zechariah 14 contains a progressive judgment. Without grace it would be the harshest judgment at first transgression.

    Grace does not exempt us from doing YHWH’s will. It withholds final or absolute judgment. This is why Paul says that being under grace does not give us permission to transgress the law. (Rom. 6:14-17) It gives us time to get free from being sin’s slave and yielding to sin unto death, so that we can learn what YHWH’s will/instructions/torah is and begin to yield to obedience unto righteousness.

    Grace is being considered righteous in any given area until we become righteous by bringing our minds and bodies into subjection to YHWH’s instructions. So in this life we will always be in of need grace as we will not likely become obedient in every detail, though we are to make every effort to so become. The millennium will be no different for those that have not been resurrected.

    I think that grace is part of YHWH’s character. I do not see how it can be somehow totally eliminated. That we say we stand by grace means that we recognize that we are not yet perfectly obedient and/or that we have not been in the past. But grace should empower us to become obedient. Grace means that it is not a lost cause to do that which is righteous, because YHWH is not imputing our past transgressions. So grace gives us hope that we will be rewarded for present and future obedience. Without grace there is no hope, for all have sinned and fallen short of YHWH’s reward. There is no way for us to make up for our past transgressions by starting now to be perfectly obedient, but there is no reason to think that it is just fine to continue in sin/transgression of YHWH’s instructions, because we stand by grace.

    I think that the millennial passages of scripture indicate that YHWH did not change His mind about His Torah…even in this time of the gentiles, it is that He winks at our ignorance, but still calls us to repent. I think that he expects that a person empowered by His spirit will want to and be able to keep His Word. We have no excuse, but we can come boldly before the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Grace to help is not mercy. It is power to change into obedient lovers of YHWH. We need the mercy because of our past transgressions. We need grace to keep us from despairing that we will never be able to please YHWH.

    Mercy says, “I will not hold it against you.” Grace says, “I give you another chance to get it right.” With that chance comes hope and power. The throne of grace offers both mercy and grace. YHWH will not only forgive our transgressions of His Torah, He will cleanse us of all future Torah breaking (By empowering us to keep it), if we will confess and forsake our transgressions of His Torah.

    Proverbs 28
    13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

    1 John 1
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Hebrews 4
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    I think that the Millennial throne will be one of grace.


  26. Bo,

    Do you think those of the Mill. will be given the gift of everlasting life?

    What advantage do we have who are of the “first resurrection” then?

  27. There is really not enough information in Scriptures about the Mill. reign. We know more about the day of wrath then we do about that. We can’t negate the entire NT by looking into it and seeing more than is really there. I’m just trying to show the truth of the Mill. and the future fulfillment of the promises to Israel as a Nation.

  28. Sheila, Tom, Bo, etc.

    Dealing with the demands of life commitments I have hoped for a casual approach to the subjects raised here, and attempted putting boundaries on these as to scope and my own participation, due to the economy of time and health. But there are many impressions, considerations, and unqualified assertions abounding here, which require some contemplation of the interrelated nature of scripture (and its themes, preoccupations, promotions and eternal values, as such).

    Yes, the Millennium is of very brief mention in the Revelation, as are some other matters of general outline around other realities of its mention, e.g., what happens as to certain actions in history, as are organized by their frameworks of reference (e.g. Israel, trumpets, seals, the blood and our testimony, etc.). Some are briefer than others. Is it a linear piece of disclosure of what Jesus will be about in re: to tribulation, judgments, support for churches, abiding implementations regarding the testimonies of trust for the martyred faithful, who will be holy and not, warfare of the end times, etc. ? Or is it a layered outline of events in 3D–some with greater detailed disclosure than others? Where, if we change our point of view more comes into focus, and vice versa. It is not simply apocalyptic, nor is it simply everyday rationally conveyed written letter literature. Its challenges of interpretation then require more of us than some other Biblical expressions seem to. And it is given to us not to add to its word, but to clarify its intentions.

    Interpreting the Revelation was never intended in isolation from each context it alludes to, often as illuminated more fully from details given of other scripture. Interpretation begins with each mentioned context, then is discovered more completely in examining other scripture of indicated prophetic reference, and the signs of times of the chosen Nation, the Church, and the Nations. It requires an initial acceptance of information which is often disorienting for readers, and, at the same time is meant to stir to inform for some clues to gain the effort to discover, along with the cloak of obscurity as is well placed in its manner for others.

    The Millennium in particular requires that one go from its brief Revelation resurrection and warfare framed assertions framing mention of the rule of Christ on earth into other prophetic literature for greater interpretation and considered understanding. Most of the symbology of the Revelation is Old Testament born, and Old Testament clarified. By the Prophets of Old’s own references (as vital to comprehension, as Peter stated indirectly in Acts 3:21). Tom asked why I looked to Israel as a centerpiece of its message –of eschatology. I answered. One cannot separate the Dancer from his placement for and performance of the Dance–so it is with the first visiting Messiah scene, and Returning Messiah scenes. The Millennium is simply a very significant scene of conflict resolution and final conflict setting along the play of Redemption and Promise for the whole people of God. As we are moving in prophetic history to complete the people of the Israel of God, it is best to agree with what is happening and assist and ally with the intentions of the Father.

    Even so, we must not withdraw our own commitment to understand grace and truth, its Gospel Message as the divine Plan, and its centrality as is founded in Jesus, the Messiah, and His own NT commandments given by our Lord as to watching and praying as we see events become here and now reality; how to respond to such, and as to discerning his Redemptive Plans throughout all covenants promises He faithfully made throughout the Age of the Gentiles becomes vital for our own indentity and associated meaning as part and parcel to His Plan (which was to be the Age of His Kingdom from the start of interaction with Israel, but was foretold as frustrated, then as is historically encompassed for redemptive intention by some final events of these end times).

    Accept it or not, it is important in redemptive history that Israel be reestablished, work out its inherent people group chosen for promise scripts, and that these be summed up soon in time in Jesus the Messiah as Lord of heaven, and earth. These will lead Israel’sown behavior toward both vanity of pursuit of righteousness apart from Christ, and paradoxically through the remnant faithful there to the Nation’s completion in the true Christ. This story will cost us all dearly, as will the times we are found to be living in, for being despised by all Nations is written in the Mt. of Olives discourse by our Lord with many other details. Abiding in the Holy Spirit, in Christ, in these times, is essential to being prepared to go to be with Him by His sudden literal reappearance in Redemptive history in reference to the Nations, the redeemed, and the Land of the People of the Book. Let it be so, as is “decreed” in Revelation speak.

    Luke 21:24 is a pivotal piece of information around which we have current focus, waiting for the Gentile pagan dominance of the holy sites of Jerusalem to be replaced in full by the first incomplete actions of the chosen Nation, leading to the Return of the Messiah’s completed promises actions (Tom, bear with this statement for little has been clarified for you, and as regarding your own heart in the matter of restoration and renewal in present Israel bringing back Jesus for redemptive intention there and for his own to share his reign for a chosen season of promise).

    Netanyahu, who was prophecied over by Michael Evans when a college student in the USA (by the gift given Michael through the Holy Spirit, as conveyed then in a word of direct knowledge spoken over Netanyahu, which he received) was told by the Spirit that he would twice be Prime Minister of Israel, and, the last time in a time of great clarifying crisis for Israel. His leadership was foreordained for this season. Netanyahu’s personal vision for his Nation is both religious and political, yet with as pure of intention as any natural Jew can have. He is concerned to date about Israel’s own existential challenges of reestablishing its realized IDENTITY (no easy challenge in the face of a multitude of opinion even among its own ranks), a renewed National purpose to establish righteousness in the earth as is mentioned in the Tenach, and its positive alliances of the making of its actions of dedication as are to be unwittingly formed to clearly represent the morality and justice of the Biblical God of Israel in the present day earth. As part of the future bride of the Messiah, the Nation will make herself ready through the things she sets out to do, suffers, and clarifies–in Christ (as is written on her heart, and in her scripture’s prophetic scripts).

    As Tom has pointed out, my writing expressions can become burdensome for readers. This happens when I am overextended, or when my L4 & L5 spinal injury (I am mobile, but can be mentally fogged by pain and spinal nerve signals clouding my processing by standing or sitting for long periods; I have to lay flat, recover periodically, and move around to gain functionality. Once being a carpenter, now permanently injured some years, and at 62, being born the year Israel became a Nation, I too must wait upon the Lord). So, I have to recover full mental processing abilities when this disability interferes with them. Sometimes too my brain is processing more quickly than I can type or slow down to express with brevity of conveyance of intentions.

    I request you all to read this more than once to understand our charge here, on picking back up this forum, to limit our respectful interchange by hearts centered in Christ, and trust of his Word and intentions, as we look to what the Revelation can only hint at in its brevity.

  29. Welcome back, Jabez!

    You might gain considerably from the treatment I described. It’s not pleasant, but, the relief it offers is all worth it! You would need to have a Neurologist do the treatment if that’s possible for you.

    I knew you must have been distracted by something and so I added you to my prayers.

    Are there other verses you would include to open up the promises to Israel as a Nation? I tried to outline some that I felt would help Tom to see it.

    I feel we are living in the generation that will witness the Lord re-enter human affairs in an absolutely awesome way. I know you probably have, Jay, but, has anyone else read much on the Islamic Mahdi? The President of Iran, (spl.?) especially, has a vision of executing the conditions necessary to cause their messiah to come. It would only happen when the world is thrown into chaos. He fully intends to help that along.

    The seed of the serpent.

  30. Shel,

    I was also giving time to the other matter of prayer requested in the other forum of pursuit here, a matter of impending false doctrine which in good conscience could not slip by. I did so, and will a couple of more times in the VOR comments section. Yes, the scriptures you cited are of contemplative regard. I too share a belief that this decade upon us will be extremely prophetically significant.

    Tom, You might research the Third Temple video on the VOR subject index and look at my comments there, built over some time. Viweing the videos there too may aid a background study for what I may share here, in time.

    Bo, You are not observant unless you do not round the corners of your hair, according to the law. Locks are indicative of not doing so.

    In the Messiah, Jabez

  31. Tom,

    Has the discussion, so far, given you any illumination about the promises of the Lord as being yet unfulfilled? In bringing again the captivity of Israel and in setting them back in the land which He promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we see that He is very near in current affairs.

    Those to the Church will be fulfilled and those to Israel will be fulfilled.

    I don’t see any contradiction in the two, just a matter of the time-frame for each.

  32. Sheila,

    It has given me a clearer understanding of your position, yes. I do have some questions, but I will have to get back with you later on those (I’m swamped at work right now – working long hours and not much time to be here).

  33. Right. Sure, ask away. There are many things I’m not even 50% clear on myself, so, we’ll just sort it out together. I’m in need of some illumination on certain things too.

    Hence, our discussion.

  34. All–
    I will look here evey other day or so to see what dialogue develops, as to what contribution I may make. Up front my pursuit is of truth and grace, in Jesus the Christ, where both tempering one another to arrive at what Christ wants of all of this is in my heart. I am not interested in vain pursuits here, nor endless postings of hardfast positions, but in what should be regarded as useful and why so to the Body of believers here.

    In this regard I would appreciate testing and comments reflected on my response to the David Popovici video proclamation posting under the Kingdom of God section on the Voice of Revolution on-line magazine carried by this parent website. I ask in order to test and prove all things. My view is derived from the New Testament contributors, research, and life experience; that Popovici’s video poster, Eric’s view, is derived of something else believed as more vital seems the case. I have seen such over the years lead to rabbit trails, people so delluded leaving the faith in time, and petty loyalties which do not serve the Kingdom of Christ, redemption’s intentions, or an inclusive view of leveling the playing flield of a priesthood of all believers.

    Please go there listen, read my responses, and give it your take on the posting and responses as well. That all be confirmed, judged, tested, etc. by more than I.

  35. Ok, just a quick question here to move the conversation along until I have more time to draw deeper from the well:

    Jeremiah 29:11 is an oft-cited Bible passage to give hope to those experiencing hardship. Back when I graduated high school years and years ago, some friends gave a framed copy of it to me. My question to you all is: who is this promise for? Is it to me? To national Israel? To who or whom?

  36. Tom,

    It is a promise to Judah. Can we take comfort in the fact that YHWH looks at us in general in the same way? Probably, but there are other scriptures that are more specifically directed to us in our time.

    YHWH is telling Judah that though He is sending them into captivity, He is still watching over them and that He will, in 70 years, bring them, or at least their children, back to the land…if they return to Him with all their hearts.

    We find YHWH giving this call to return with all of ones heart in many places. So, it is probably generally applicable to us if we seek YHWH with our whole heart, but the passage is a prophecy with a specific fulfillment. Daniel, Nehemiah, and Ezra relate the fulfillment.


  37. In this chapter of Jeremiah, we have the promise of the Lord to prosper those of the captivity in Babylon, in that they will be there long enough to build houses and maintain themselves until such time as He releases and regathers them again. Therefore, the Lord sends word through the prophet for the children of Israel, namely Judah, which Bo pointed out, to submit themselves to be governed by the Babylonians and that in doing so, they would live in peace. Jeremiah is still in Jerusalem writing to those in Babylon. He writes of the punishment meeted out by the Lord when using the hand of Nebuchadnezzar in silencing the false prophets who would incite the people to rise up against their captors. That their captivity will be for a certain amount of time, even 70 years, which we hear echoed in the book of Daniel when he says, “I understood from the book of Jeremiah” the length of our captivity.

    As Bo said, the Lord’s comfort to them and to us is this: “You shall find me when you shall search for me with all your heart.” The Lord will reward those who understand their chastisement for a season and do repent and seek His face. In that they had forgotten the Lord, He will forget them, but, only for a time. “Or else let them come to me for refuge; let them make peace with me, yes, and they shall make peace with me.”

    And, as in Hebrews 11:6, “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

  38. Of course, now, there were others who were prophets as well, but, their prophesies are contained within other OT books. Samuel, David, Elijah and such.

  39. This link is a really thorough one.


    Chronological Order of the Kings and the Major and Minor Prophets
    All the books of the major and minor prophets in the order they should be read. This will give you the best chance of understanding what is happening, to whom, and when it has or will occur.

  40. Tom,

    Sorry you couldn’t read the historical section of the link I posted in the Xmas discussion. Larry Norman, the singer that wrote the song, “Why should the devil have all the good music”, also had a song called “Shot Down.” One of the lines went, “They say they don’t understand me and I’m not surprised, because you can’t see nothin’ when you close your eyes.” There is a lot of historical quotes in the article link that I posted. Prove yourself a student of history.

    Here is the song by Larry Norman:


    You wrote:
    “Debbie and Ruth and Sheila are right, this has spun on long enough for me. I think I’ll just take Paul’s advice to Titus and be done with what is clearly a waste of time.

    “But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.” – Titus 3.9”

    You quoted and misapplied this verse in Titus. Context is the key once again.

    Titus 3
    8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
    9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
    10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
    11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

    We have been talking about good works, not foolish controversies, genealogies and such. The word translated as “law” above is actually “lawyer.” So literally it should read “arguments about lawyers” or “lawyers arguments.” Because we know that the law is good if used lawfully.(1 Timothy 1:8) If we are trying to use the law lawfully it is a good thing. If we are picking and choosing the parts of YHWH’s Torah we want to follow, we are heretics. That is what the word “hairetikos” means…chooser. The lawyers were the ones that tried to find loopholes in the law and invented laws of their own. A heretic is one that rejects part of YHWH’s Torah.

    Please note a heretic “sinneth.” Transgression of the law is sin. So who is Paul talking about? Those that try to justify their unlawful actions…lawyers…heretics…those that do not want to do the good works prescribed in YHWH’s law. Please keep this verse in mind:

    2 Timothy 3
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    The scriptures that Timothy knew from childhood, that made him wise unto salvation, that was spirit breathed, that teaches us all we need to know about good works, righteousness and maturity (being perfect), and that is for out correction, doctrine, and reproof is the Torah and Prophets. The exact scripture that Y’shua said not to think that He came to change.

    Xmas is not a good work according to the scriptures. Fighting for a way to justify keeping it is “striving like lawyers.” Ignoring the Torah statements and principles is being a “haitetikos.”

    Please read the link I posted above. Please open your eyes.


  41. hhmmm…I couldn’t get it either. It was one I had in my favorites when I was studying the prophets. Maybe it’s not available now. Well, the second one is really all you might need to get a really good overview.

    And the lexicon for Strong’s G3544 – nomikos means:

    1) pertaining to the law, one learned in the law
    2) in the NT an interpreter and teacher of the Mosaic law

    NLT–“Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees* or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These kinds of things are useless and a waste of time.”

    * discussions and genealogies.

    NIV–But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

    ESV–But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

    NASB–But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

    DBY–But foolish questions, and genealogies, and strifes, and contentions about the law, shun; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    They all read the same. “Pertaining to the Law.” The etymology of the Greek “nomikos” is G3551 – nomos, which is what is spoken of here and is translated as simply any one discussing the law as being a “lawyer”.

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