Dr. Brown’s In-Depth Discussion of Believers and the Torah
Dr. Brown’s Concise Discussion of Believers and the Torah
Dr. Brown’s Article on the Place of Rabbinic Tradition in Messianic Judaism
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Trezeguet,
Have you read the epistles lately. They are full of externals. They also talk about internals from time to time. Both are necessary as we only know what is in our hearts by what comes out in our actions and words.
Shalom
Bo,
I said “an unhealthy and unfruitful over emphasis of externals”. Believe me you don’t have to tell me that externals are important, because I believe exactly what you stated, they manifest what is in our hearts. Amen to that achi(my brother).
This article that Dr. Brown wrote is brilliant! Maybe you have already read it, but its insightful and sobering. I know it did me a lot of good to read through that.
http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/read/place-rabbinic-tradition-messianic-judiasm
Dr. Brown, great article!
Amiably,
Trezeguet
Trez,
Just a warning: do not get entangled with Bo; he will spend a lot of your resources/strength, and will not change his mind. It is a hole you don’t want to step into.
Dan1el,
Thanks for the encouraging words?
Shalom
Trezeguet,
That’s great. I guess I am in the habit of having to defend the external/small commandments that will be the deciding factor in whether we are called great or least in the kingdom.
Shalom
Bo,
I’m not encouraging you; I would strongly urge you to stop teaching your false doctrines, for your own good – however, that is up to you.
“I appreciate your invitation but I would never retreat from where I am now in my walk with the Lord.” – Sheila
Could you explain how observing the Torah would take you away from Jesus?
I could understand that engaging in sin would hurt your relationship with Jesus, but I don’t understand how having a more obedient heart could.
Bo,
I understand what you mean Bo, but can I ask you about Yeshua? Who is Yeshua to you and what part does He play in your life?
Is He all that you have in heaven, and is He all that you desire here on earth? Tehillim 73:25.
Have you at any point felt like your attention has drifted away from Yeshua, as you’ve tried to figure out how to incorporate these external/small commandments in your life?
The reason I ask these things is because, over the past year I have met some people that seem to have moved Yeshua to the background, by a noticeable degree. Other things have become more important, which have drawn most of their attention, and now these things have redefined their day to day devotion. Why and how did this happen? Is that what is supposed to happen when one gives importance to the external/small commandments that you are talking about, or did they slip up at some point?
I am a Hebrew student, and I am around a Messianic community. I’ve been exposed to these external/small commandmants. I think that these external/small commandmentst that you speak of are important, but not at the expense of letting Yeshua out of one’s sight. Right? I have been praying and asking God to help me understand why and how Yeshua can be moved to the background like that. I want to be able to help my new friends, brothers and sisters in Messiah, bring Yeshua back to the front. Amen?!
By the way, are you part of a Messianic Community?
Trezeguet
Juan,
-Could you explain how observing the Torah would take you away from Jesus?-
…In the same way that the Hebrews in the time Yeshua walked the earth drifted away from worshiping the true and living God, Adonai Tzva’ot. Yeshua called them a perverse generation.
These Hebrews believed that they were pleasing Adonai, but Yeshua didn’t seem to believe so.
Don’t you think that what you call obedience might easily turn into perversion of the Torah? It has happened before. And if you read through the M’lachim you can see that perversion of the Torah and/or complete exclusion of the Torah is not something that does not happen.
Having Yeshua as our first and foremost is the only way that we will stay united and focused on the true, pure and faultless observance of the Torah.
Read Ya’akov 1:27. That verse is solid. What is true, pure and faultless observance?
Much love to all of you. The Line of Fire community is great. Much sharpening takes place here. I am glad I found you guys. We are to heed each others words and pray that the Spirit establish our thoughts. Amen?!
Trezeguet
Dan1el,
Every time you try to discourage others from listening to me, it encourages me that I am on the right track. It is the same thing that happened to Y’shua and Paul. I agree with Y’shua and Paul. I teach and do what they did and taught. Those that live righteous lives in Messiah will suffer persecution. Not that your words against me are that persecuting, but woe be to me if all men speak well of me. “What ever you do don’t throw me in that briar patch.”-uncle Remus.
Shalom
Trezeguet,
Y’shua is the focal point of my faith. My Torah obedient lifestyle is out of love, respect and gratefulness for how He was obedient for me.
Shalom
Bo,
All clear.
Matthew 7
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
I fully believe that Our Father is a good father. He would not give us something harmful to eat. If we ask for our daily bread, He gives us no stones. He gives us that which is food, not that which is not food. So has he made that which is not food into food?
Matthew 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Here, we find the answer in principle form. He does not make stones into bread. He does not make food of nonfood. He gives us His word as to what is and is not food. We are to live by that word.
So a good Father gave us instructions about what is food. He did not want us eating stones or swine flesh. When we ask Him to bless our eating of that which His word does not sanction, are we not, in essence, tempting Him to transform stones into bread?
Now, we have seen what a good father does. What about a good son. When a good son is tempted to make food out of nonfood, he says, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH.” Does a good son ask his father for stones to eat? Or snakes? Or scopions? In our immaturity we may think we want to eat those things, but once we have learned the Father’s will we abstain from that which is poison or harmful.
A good son believes what his father says. He follows the wise and good instructions of his father. He refuses the temptations of the devil. A good father does not give that which is not food to his son to eat.
Shalom
“Don’t you think that what you call obedience might easily turn into perversion of the Torah?” – Trezeguet
I suppose anything in the hands of us humans can easily become perverted, but they say “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”.
“Having Yeshua as our first and foremost is the only way that we will stay united and focused on the true, pure and faultless observance of the Torah.” – Trezeguet
He showed us the true way, but did he really throw out the Torah? That would’ve been an extremely big deal. I don’t get the impression that that was a part of his ministry.
Of course, he was primarily ministering to the Jews, not the Gentiles.
Nonetheless, observing the Torah as Y’shua did (out of respect and love for him) surely wouldn’t take anyone backwards or away from Y’shua or YHWH – even if you are a Gentile.
Juan G,
And neglecting to put the parts of scripture that we do know into practice has the potential of great harm, both for ourselves and those that we effect…even eternal consequences for some.
Shalom
@Sheila,
If I say anything that effects you negatively, please forgive me. I say that in advance, because I really don’t want to have that effect on you. I suggest praying that nothing apart from God wants you to hear will effect you before reading.
I’m a Gentile PK raised in the AoG who prayed my whole life for God to show me his will and help me do his will, and God finally answered my prayer when I was old enough to leave my parents’ house when He opened my eyes that I beheld wonders from His Tora.
Dear sister, I don’t want to argue with you, but when you say it’s not found in the First Testament, have you considered?
“All of you stand today before the Lord your God…the Geir (grafted Gentile) … that you may enter into covenant with the Lord your God, and into His oath, which the Lord your God makes with you today, that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you… I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but… also with him who is not here with us today.” Deuteronomy 29:10-15
“Gather… the Geir … that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe the entire words of this law.” Deuteronomy 31:12
Why would it be necessary for them in the book of Acts to state what was obvious to them? Acts 15 was about Gentiles who were in the process of turning to God, like ex-temple prostitutes, as Paul wrote,
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor femme gays, nor butch gays… will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
So if they could stay away from sexual immorality that would be a miracle, as it says,
“If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.” Acts 15:29
The context was never mature Gentile believers, but Goyim in the process of turning to God, as it says,
“the Goyim who are turning to God.” Acts 15:19
So to take Acts 15 and make it about something that it is not, would be like taking a book about early childhood education and teaching that to university students.
I would say no and yes. God accepts us according to our level of maturity. He won’t reject babes for not acting like elders, but I would say that elders who refuse to grow up spiritually are in very dangerous ground. There is a lot of talk about being relevant to the world in Churches today. But I say we need to be relevant to God. And we make ourselves relevant to Him by listening to Him and keeping His commandments.
May I ask did someone reason you out of your conviction and conscience?
Ok, I’m going to say something and I don’t want you to think that I’m saying you’re like these people, because you’re nothing like them, ok? Abortion advocates have given accounts of girls raped by their fathers and say how sick the girls feel and how they need to have an abortion because of the abomination growing inside them. After they win that debate, they extend it to include abortion as birth control, like the women who go to wild parties then go have an abortion afterwards. Even if they could win the debate about being raped by a father, that doesn’t mean other women also should have abort their babies. The same goes with what you just said. It’s called false extension. Just because God loves people and works with them at their level and people in remote countries have relationships with God, doesn’t mean mature Christians shouldn’t grow up and walk according to God’s commandments.
So when you had no other person talking in your ear, you were convicted in your conscience to keep God’s commandments, but then some man told you otherwise?
I know ex-Christians who say the very same thing. That it was too hard being a Christian. That they tried and failed and felt so guilty and horrible and they couldn’t keep living that way. I would say don’t run, but take one step at a time, like a child when they take their first steps and their father or mother is holding out their arms ready to embrace them, don’t run or you’ll fall down and hate yourself, but walk according to your ability and know that God accepts you there, but that never means we should just sit and stay that way either.
I know of Torah Observant Christians in Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Japan, India, and Israel, Australia and New Zealand. And that’s only the ones I know of!
David, do you have some sort of connections with Bo besides being on this site?
@BenKC,
none at all. I don’t even know his name or have any contact information whatsoever.
BenKC,
Do you have any connections to Dr. Brown?
David Roberts,
My name is really Bo.
Shalom
David Roberts, I greet you as a brother in the Lord. Shalom achi. Peace brother.
Have not all us of asked for God to bring revelation to us in to how to interpret the Scriptures correctly?
Why is your interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures a foreign concept to all pre Yeshua rabbis?
Why do you not distinguish between a ger tzedek and a ger toshav in Hebrew Scriptures as the rabbis did in ancient times and do today?
Why were uncircumsized Gentiles forbidden to eat of the passover lamb?
Why did the generation of Yeshua demand that the Gentiles that believed in Y’shua as Messiah should be circumsized to become a Ger Tzedek – a full Jew?
Why did the leadership Kefa, Yochanan, Yaa’kov the brother of Y’shua under the revelation of the Holy Spirit, NOT demand circumcision on a Gentile believer in Yeshua?
Why did Timothy later get circumsized at Paul’s advice?
Why did the generation that immediately followed the Yochanan who wrote revelations – did not teach that Gentiles should be circumcized?
Why do we see no teaching of the Torah law on Gentiles in the early Church Writings?
Why do you ask me to believe that you and Bo alone have revelation that is in contradiction to the revelation that the Church Fathers, the disciples of Yeshua and the rabbis, and sanhedrin of rabbis that knew and studied the Torah as their National Law book to govern every aspect of their civil and moral code of living?
Your interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures that refer to Gerim are laughable not to me but to every rabbi on this earth today and for the last thousands of years.
Why are the interpretations of the rabbis concerning the Ger verses, who grew up speaking Hebrew from infancy in Ancient Israel, why do feel you hebrew better than them to figuire out these verses of gerim better than they do?
Why did the generation and culture of NT Scripures have both Messianic and Rabbinical teachers of Yeshua’s generation and Historians such as Josephus, why do they, none of them, explicitely teach that a Gentile, uncircumsized one, needs to obey all the Torah laws?
And why do they all, the above, teach that a Ger that chooses to be circumcized, and chooses to do all the rules upon himself, this person is a full Jew, just as Abraham made the covenant, so this person does to obey all the commands towards Jews, including all the separation laws?
And why if your interpretation is correct than we would see the generation after the first disciples commanding and living accordingly, doing as you suggest every Torah rule for Jewish people but on the contrary they were even a agaisnt the Jewish believers doing the Jewish ruled in the Torah?
@Eliyahu Moshiach,
I don’t believe that the NT has the authority overturn the role and place of a ger tzedek, especially since the New Covenant puts the Holy Spirit within one’s self especially to circumcise one’s heart and inside’s to keep ה׳’s Torah.
Being a ger toshav is just about doing the bare minimum, the lowest common denominator necessary for someone not to get thrown out of the Holy Land. I see that happening in the Millennium when the nations of the world want to come and visit Jerusalem. People will have to pass a basic level of righteousness to enter the land – no idolaters allowed. But if you read God’s heart, you’ll see a ger toshav does not have the kind of relationship that a ger tzedek has.
God doesn’t say to a ger toshav that they’re part of his people, or that they’re part of
הַקָּהָל אוֹ הָעֵדָה
and he doesn’t call them the children of ה׳ your God.
If you read through the Tanakh, you’ll see that God favours and loves those who fear him and keep all of His commandments. A ger tzedek stands in a place a ger toshav can’t, and when the Messiah returns to establish the kingdom, those who were faithful with much, will get a far greater reward.
And regarding the generation after the first disciples, the history is disputed. There is a lot that says that they continued to keep the entire Torah.
David, thanks for responding, bless you brother.
I have a question on this statement of yours:
“I don’t believe that the NT has the authority overturn the role and place of a ger tzedek,”
Could you elaborate?
@Eliyahu Moshiach,
Many Believers teach that the NT instructs Gentiles to limit themselves to live by a standard of morality and lifestyle very similar to the Ger Toshav, though they’d probably use different terminology, and that it is always wrong in God’s sight for Gentiles to keep the same commandments כָּאֶזְרָח and live as a Ger Tsedek. Some even go as far as to say they’ll go to hell for it. Basically the gate keepers (teachers/leaders) refuse to let any Gentiles to enter the gate to join הַקָּהָל וְהָעֵדָה of עם ישראל.
Eliyahu Moshiach,
What do you do with these things that the torah does say? Do the rabbinical rulings set these aside? Didn’t Y’shua rebuke the rabbis for making the Torah of none effect by their rulings? Torah trumps tradition and teachings of men!
A stranger should keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Exd 12:18 In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Exd 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a STRANGER, or born in the land.
A stranger should observe the Shabbat day!
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the Shabbat of YHWH thy Elohim: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the STRANGER, may be refreshed.
A stranger is also required to keep Yom Kippur(Day of Atonement)!
Lev 16:29 And [this] shall be a statute for ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month, on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, [whether it be] one of your own country, or a STRANGER that sojourneth among you:
Also the stranger should keep the entire Torah!
Deut 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy STRANGER that [is] within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear YHWH your Elohim, and observe to do ALL the words of this TORAH:
Shalom
David,
Your statement:
“God doesn’t say to a ger toshav that they’re part of his people, or that they’re part of
הַקָּהָל אוֹ הָעֵדָה
Whom has suggested that before Y’shua died and was resurrected and ascended, that the Ger Toshavim were ever apart of Hakahal or HaAdat Israel, the congregation of Israel? Were they not just good goyim foreigners living within the land of Israel?
Why is being not apart of the congregation of Israel bad pre-Yeshua?
Why is being a non-Jew, yet God fearer like the Pharaoh of Egypt during King Yoshiyahu’s (Josiah) time a bad thing? Did not G-d have more favour on the good goy Egyption over Joshiah, arguably the greatest of all Kings of Judah?
Why did Elisha say NOT to the rich leper from Damascus, now you must become a Jew or a Ger Tzedek, be fully circumsized and obey the 613+ commandments in the Law of Moses? He did not even tell this ruler from Damascus to become a Ger Toshav and live as a foreigner in Israel, right?
Why is being Ger Toshav bad? Why is being a godly goy bad? from Scripture?
Why is a ger Tzedek better? It may be (may not), but was it ever a madatory commandment to become this or was it always a free will? How many adults do you know that would want to be circumsized? Is it not a choice, not a command? Abraham made that choice but did God require all races to or was it always a free will choice?
Is not a Ger Tzedek, one who becomes Israel fully, as Abraham had, and becomes fully Kahal and Adat (congregation) of Yisrael?
Why is there so many verses of the Tanach that refer to Israel and the Nations (goyim) to receive the mercies, light and salvation of G-d?
Why does the New Testament in Rav Shaul’s (Apostle Paul’s) olive tree parable, give a prophetic insight to the clear distinction between Yehudi and Kol ha Goyim, all the Gentiles?
Why would Hashem (G-d)force any human being to be a Ger Tzedek when even before, in an era of the Law of Moshe Rabeinu, Hashem did not force Gentiles of any ethnicity or language to become a Ger Tzedek? Is this not mercy? Is it not painful to get circumsized? Did He not even force Gentiles to become Ger toshavim, He did not force Gentiles to move into the land of Israel?
Why is Ruth honored among us Jews so much, is it not because out of her own free voalition, not by force, she became a Ger Tzedek and through her lineage Melech Dawid was born?
Could it be not that Hashem has given the nation’s of ethnicities, languagues and nationalities, the free will to be Ger Toshavim and Ger Tzedekim? Yet has not Hashem Almighty given the resposibility of every nation and ethnicity, to be good goyim, the same responsibility that Noah and his sons were under, Enoch who walked with God was under, and Adam and Eve who were in the Garden of Eden were under?
Why did Hashem separate the Jews with more rules than other ethinicities? Why did G-d separate the descendents of Levi with more rules than other Jews? Why did Hashem separate the descendents of Aaron with more rules than others from the tribe of Levi? Were these not the ways that G-d ordained and thus obeyed not always knowing why but just doing what Hashem asked us to do?
Is not the early conclusions of those that walked and talked with Y’shua ben Elohim, Himself, were they not that the different ethnicities did not need to move to Israel? thus they did not need to be Ger Toshavim? they could live in their own lands, in the lands they were born in and be good goyim greeks, good goyim romans, good goyim spaniards etc., saved by the blood of Y’shua? Walking in the power of the Holy Spirit? Producing the fruits of the Spirit and not of the flesh?
Bless you brother Bo.
Do you see a distinction between a Ger Toshav and a Ger Tzedek?
And, all this ethnically and YAHWEH derived terminology, why is it relevant to the “New and Living Way”? In the context of a Messianic Temple, in Messianic order, in Messianic Government–after this present Age–to what will the heart of the healer of the Nations be disposed. And, even of the alien in the Chosen Land of the People of the Book? In that hopefully soon future context, it is written, Ezkl. 47: 21-23. Grace abounds as the end to the what Name shall be the Name in Jerusalem and Land occupancy questions alike (Zech. 14:9).
All pontification speculations in the mean time seem unimportant as to who will be coming with Him and be caught up by Him.
@Eliyahu Moshiach,
The Covenants:
Adamic
Noachide
Abrahamic
Sinaitic
And the New Covenant (with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah and גרים צדקים who join Israel)
So if Gentiles want to believe in Yeshua, they have to join the New Covenant which is exclusive for Jews and גרים צדקים.
Whether or not Ger Toshav have a place in the world to come is not my concern, my concern is defending the Biblical New Covenant which is only for Jews and גרים צדקים.
We can’t go back to the Adamic Covenant and live exclusively by it, nor should a son of Abraham leave the Abrahamic Covenant and go back to the Noachide Covenant, and an Israelite shouldn’t go back to the Abrahamic Covenant, so how about we all live by the Biblical New Covenant which is the Sinaitic only even stricter.
David,
Your statement:
“And the New Covenant (with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah and גרים צדקים who join Israel)”
How do you know that the New Covenant requires ANYONE to be under the Sinaic covenant laws, according to your world view?
Why do you only have a New Covenant with Israel, Judah and Ger Tzedekim? Why in your world view are the Ger Toshavim and Goy Tovim who believe in Yeshua and are full of the Holy Spirit indwelling, why do you doubt there “olam ha ba”-ness?
@David, bless you friend,
If Jonah was preaching in Ninevah during the time of the Sinaic covenant, then, according to your world view, Jonah needed to turn all of Nineveh into Gerim Tzedakim, fully circumsized and fully Jewish, right?
Does your world view not say that the Noachide covenant was the past and now Nineveh was bound to the Sinaic covenant?
Why did this not take place?
They stayed Geniles?
But did they repent of their sins and why were they forgiven?
Were they only under the Noachide or moral law of the Torah?
When they repented of breaking these moral laws, did they not receive mercy from G-d Almighty?
Are you sure that at the time of the Sinaic covenant, the Noachide covenant with the nations was no longer applicable?
Is your New Covenant, does it consist of all the teachings of Jesus and the disciples plus the 613+ Sinaic Laws to every human being on earth and over every country civil law?
Can Hashem NOT make a covenant with one ethnicity only?
Can Hashem only demand that those of the seed of Jacob abstain from cutting the corners of their beard and the sides of the hair?
Can not Hashem make a covenant with one family ethnicity called Jews today?
Why does the Sinaic covenant have to be for every human being in the universe? Why do we not see Elisha teaching that to the leper ruler from Damascus nor Jonah to the human beings in Nineveh?
Why did Nineveh stay Gentile, yet still moved the heart of God to have mercy on them?
Could it be that the Lord has a covenant with all the nations, Jewish also, the covenant of Adam – that it is appointed for us all to die for our sin? the punishment of Eve, Adam and Satan? ruling over the universe and all that is within it?
The covenant with Abraham, is not that through his Seed, all the nations would be blessed?
And the Noachide Law covenant, to Jew (did not exist yet) and Gentile, to live according to those laws – no idolatry, murder, etc.,?
The Sinaic Law, is this not a unique Law to govern the Nation of Israel, a national Law for the country of Israel?
Did Jonah preach that Nineveh had to repent and join Yisrael and become one country?
Was the Gentiles there at the self proclamations of the blessings and the curses or was it just the Nation and Country of Israel that made the blessings and curses declarations before the Almighty One?
If Nineveh did not need to become Jews (gerim tzedikim), then, in the Sinaic covenant time period, why would the United States need to become Jews today in the New Covenant time period?
Has the New Covenant time period of today, demanded that the whole universe become Jews and circumsize themselves? If so, why did the New Testament in the Book of Acts teach that Gentiles do not have to become Jews and circumsize themselves?
Why did Elisha send back the leper/governor from Damascus back to Damscus, why did he not tell him to become Jewish? But why was he considered whole before the Lord as a righteous Gentile who spoke of God’s goodness back in Damascus?
Why do you reject he notion of YHWH Elohim making a Sinaic covenant not with all the nations but with the Jewish nation alone?
Does not Hashem have the right if He so wants to give more rules to one nation over all the others?
The Lord chose, did He not Israel, to be His unique vessel and separated Israel with many unique rules for dress, hair, circumsision and eating?
“Did not G-d have more favour on the good goy Egyption over Joshiah, arguably the greatest of all Kings of Judah?”
Josiah (Joshiah) was warned by the prophet Jeremiah not to go into battle, and he was told that the Egyptians only wanted to pass through but had no military designs on Judea, but this great King chose to fight anyway out of the zeal of his own heart — a zeal which motivated him to purge the land of idolatry, for which he is greatly admired to this day. Nonetheless, the consequences of pursuing war with the Egyptians despite the above were that King Josiah was wounded and later died from those wounds. This doesn’t mean that the Egyptian warrior who killed him was more favored by the LORD, however. Didn’t the LORD tell Josiah through the prophetess Huldah that he would be able to “rest in peace” — and not see in his own lifetime the destruction the LORD planned against the nation for its disobedience? Did the Egyptian(s) have such confidence?
King Josiah was killed, but it was by pursuing his own dream, despite the prophetic warning. Nonetheless, the LORD’s promises to him were faithful.
Thanks, Ruth.
Ruth, bless you.
The words of Neco the one I referred to above as the pharaoh of Egypt, these were his words to Josiah the King:
“God has ordered me to hurry. Stop for your own sake from interfering with God who is with me, so that He will not destroy you.”
Is it not possible that the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, had through revelation, given this Gentie man, a God-ordained mission to accomplish?
Do we not see in Scripture the Lord’s favor both on Jews and Gentiles – to anyone as the Lord desires?
@Eliyahu Moshiach,
If someone claimed to follow the Abrahamic Covenant but didn’t circumcise their children, would that be right?
If someone claimed to follow the Sinaitic Covenant but ate unkosher food, would that be alright?
If someone claims to follow the New Covenant which is made with ‘the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah’, which means being part of the nation of Israel, then they should keep the Covenant which they’re claiming to enter.
It’s really that simple. If someone claimed they were following the Noachide Covenant, that would be their business, though they wouldn’t believe in Yeshua or they’d enter the New Covenant.
And I’ve already answered the Acts 15 question earlier in this post, but encase you missed it:
Why would it be necessary for them in the book of Acts to state what was obvious to them? Acts 15 was about Gentiles who were in the process of turning to God, like ex-temple prostitutes, as Paul wrote,
So if they could stay away from sexual immorality that would be a miracle, as it says,
The context was never mature Gentile believers, but Goyim in the process of turning to God, as it says,
It was never about Gentiles who HAD turned to God and were going strong, but only those who were just now turning away from idolatry and sexual immorality.
So to take Acts 15 and make it about something that it is not, would be like taking a book about early childhood education and teaching that to university students.
“Do we not see in Scripture the Lord’s favor both on Jews and Gentiles – to anyone as the Lord desires?”
Yes, absolutely ~
What a great and glorious God is the Holy One of Israel….!
Eliyahu Moshiach
I Do not see a distinctions of Ger Toshav and Ger Tzedek in the scripture.
Shalom
@Bo,
Deuteronomy 14:21 says,
Yet there are other passages that make it clear that Geirim should keep the same laws as Am Yisra’el, so it makes sense to me that there was a basic moral standard required to live in close proximity to the Jewish people without having to join the congregation of the Lord.
I’m really surprised that this topic has suddenly been re-opened after being dormant for almost a year, and the fact that some are so passionate about this when there are so many MUCH MORE IMPORTANT things to focus on is really sad and totally out of harmony with the emphasis of the New Testament (and, for the record, I’ve never been a lobster or shrimp or bacon eater all my life). Anyway, I will absolutely not be weighing in here, but I do want to express my regret that folks have opened this up after these many months and are now expending energies on this. Move forward, and focus on Yeshua and on touching a dying world.
Amen Dr, Brown.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I am surprised that believers cannot just read this passage and realize that torah observance is extremely important to the committed believer in Messiah. The little commandments are the proof of our commitment level and will be the criteria used by Messiah in setting up the Kingdom of heaven’s positions of leadership.
Luke 16
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
Matthew 23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Let’s not leave any of it undone. Let’s be considered great in the kingdom. Let’s be faithful in the small things too. If we are not committed to the details, are we really committed the one that commanded them?
Shalom
Dr. Brown,
About food…
Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much
i. If I don’t eat in faith, it is a sin.
ii. What if my conscience is defiled by eating certain foods, because I know that it brings an adverse effect? If I DISREGARD the “effect” of any singular action, it breeds a disregard for the “effect” of EVERY action – and that is not a good thing to allow growth of.
HOWEVER, all things considered… eternal souls’ salvation are more important than my eating perfectly correct foods, right…?
However, if I lose my own soul in the process of saving other souls (for making decisions [in eating foods] which disregard consequences), what good is that to me?
iii. What are the parameters which should determine what foods I eat? Is it “to whom much is given, much is required” (different for everyone)? What if I can’t afford the food which I believe I should eat (based on knowledge)?
(I’m not talking about observing Torah concerning foods; even though the Torah diet is ‘good’, it isn’t necessarily ‘best’ [raw is best])
1 Cor. 8:8.
Dr. Brown,
Thank you for reaching out to me; please forgive me for asking further…
Was Paul (specifically) talking about the
physical action of eating food in accordance with Torah?
In Romans, it says “anything that is not of faith is sin” (even he who eats without faith is condemned).
Was Paul saying (1 Cor 8:8) that the forcing of self to commit the physical action (of eating a certain food) itself (apart from faith/rejoicing in the reward of the action as I look forward to the reward of the action I am taking – as Christ looked forward to the “joy set before Him” after His endurance through the Cross) that couldn’t qualify/disqualify a person before God? That it wasn’t the food, itself, but the righteousness of the action of acting upon what one believes (faith)?
The standard of “disregard for aharit” that is set by disregarding the outcome of my actions (which is engendered in disregarding the effects of eating a certain kind of food) will then permeate every action:
Ecc 10:1 Dead flies make the perfumer’s ointment give off a stench; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor.
It seems you are saying that there are decisions in my life whose consequences do not matter.
Is there ANY time a decision is “neutral”, such as the food decision seems to be?
How can it not matter ?
If the decision of “what food to eat” doesn’t matter, WHAT decision matters?
Is not EVERY DECISION important?
Do you see my struggle?
There are undesirable effects from certain foods, and desirable effects from eating other foods: if I pass on, and suffer the effects, what sense does that make?
Why eat the wrong food, and gain weight? Why eat the wrong food, and get diabetes? Why eat the wrong food, and get cancer? Why must I do what is destructive to myself just because I am a believer? What sense does that make?
Are you saying that God could approve of me eating a food which I personally do not approve of?
Actually, now that I think of it, a person wasn’t allowed to eat without joy [D 28:47], which would’ve resulted from faith [Mat 23:23]… so, even if I ate with looking forward to the reward of my actions with joy [Heb 12:2], it wouldn’t count as righteousness NOR unrighteousness?
Dan1el,
What matters is what matters — the major things; the issues of the heart; worshiping God and helping a hurting world. The only affect of food is on the body, not the spirit. Major on the majors and be at peace.
Dr. Brown,
Thank you; I am grateful for your answering me so far, so I do not expect to get another response – you don’t have to respond to this (then again, you never had to), but (not to be argumentative) I can’t have solace in your counsel.
“The only affect of food is on the body, not the spirit.”
-But, what about…
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
My action of eating food with/without faith can DAMN me (have a spiritual consequence). It isn’t the food, itself, but the doubt or faith… the only question is “what determines whether I should eat the food with doubt or faith?”
“To him whom much is given, much is required”
“To him who knows good and does it not it is sin”…
Can it be that through my knowledge of good, my conscience can dirtied by things others’ consciences are not?
You believe it affects ONLY my body, and therefore it ought not be a worry.
What about being homeless? It is just my body.
Or jumping in front of a truck? It is just my body.
Where do we draw the line?
How can anyone worship God, if they know they are doing something wrong? How can you worship God with a defiled conscience?
(please forgive me for asking again and again; I only ask cos these are the questions I struggle with in my own mind – thank you)
(just because I said what I said does NOT mean I do not want a response)