This was a great show. Two comments: 1) When you were talking about our desire to find something new and secret, I could not help but think how people have changed very little. 2) The clergy/laity distinction was some really good preaching. This message needs to get out more. Thanks Dr. Brown.
“The clergy/laity distinction was some really good preaching. This message needs to get out more. Thanks Dr. Brown.”
I couldn’t agree more, Yvette.
Dr. Michael Brown thanks for the show, you got me thinking about this quote and I am curious if you could tell me this quote is a real quote or made up? I’ve used it witnessing to Jewish brothers and sisters to build a foundation for the trinity from ancient Jewish Rabbi’s or Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai specifically (hopefully). I just assumed it was a real quote because it was on the Jews for Jesus website and a few others. However I have never verified the Zohar to see if it’s there, I was hoping you could tell me if you know it’s truly in the Zohar or not. If you aren’t sure don’t worry about it. Thanks!
Here is the quote:
“Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unity.” (Zohar II:43b (vol. 3, p. 134 in the Soncino Press edition)
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all [is] vanity. /save /Phl 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. Phl 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me./ Great program Brother… disciple is the highest calling AMEN!!!
Eric,
The quote is accurate! In fact, I just checked it again on my rabbinic literature software and read it in English and Aramaic, just to be sure I’ve seen some other Zohar citations which were dubious, but this one is not.
According to my edition, however, it is from the Zohar section called Raya’ Mehemnah, 43b (so, that is more precise than II:43b).
Great! Thanks Dr. Brown,
I really appreciate you took the time to check that for me and I will take note of that more precise section. Thanks so much again,
Eric.
Can u keep me in prayers
Hi Rev. James Lauzon yes that sounds great, I would love to pray for you.
Though I accept your assertion, Dr. Brown, that there are no “conspiracies” regarding “secret texts,” etc., I feel it is important to recognize that conspiracies themselves still do occur.
Sometimes people nowadays say the word “conspiracy” in a tone that implies one is out in left field to have any sort of “conspiracy theory.” Actually, realistically, conspiracies do happen. A conspiracy is just a few or a group of people, who, having met privately, have discussed and decided to implement a plan which they intend to keep completely secret. Certainly, history contains many proven instances of “conspiracies.”
I’ve just noticed that that word has now become synonymous with “fruitcake” in the current parlance. We shouldn’t go too far and throw out the idea that conspiracies can and do happen, because they still do.
But yes, I believe you in regards to what you covered in this broadcast re: conspiracies.
Hi Dr. Brown, thank you for this episode (one of many which I have gleaned from). I have been considering the claims of the Eastern Orthodox Church of it being the true Apostolic Church holding the true tradition passed down from the apostles. I think they would agree with you that every christian is called to make disciples (not just the Priests/Fathers). I think it is only the Priests though who are the one’s allowed to give the Eucharist(they would agree that all believers are priests in light of scripture). Their leaders are not called pastors/elder etc. but they call them Priests or “Father” being in line with how the early church did things.
Their aim is simply to be as close to the early church that they can in light of the fact that they were the closest to the apostles (St. Ignatius for example who was discipled by the John the Apostle said that the eucharist was the medicine of immortality). The early church seemed to have more than a view of the eucharist being just a symbol (baptism as well for that matter). I know that’s a side note but we can easily throw away their claims based on the views we already know they hold which we aren’t comfortable with (not saying we’re doing that, but I know I have in the past).
Could you help me understand why we as part of the western church do not hold to the same tradition and interpretation that was passed down to us from the early church fathers. I have also been hearing testimonies of solid brethren converting to the orthodox church. It seems that in the first four centuries their was unity and one universal church. Today,someone can be excommunicated and walk down the street to another “church” and feel as if everything is fine. Jesus’ prayer was for us to be unified- I know we’re all still gonna have different personalities etc. but we should be unified and in agreement with eachother at least with regard to the faith that was delivered to the saints through the apostles- the Lord said that other’s would know we are His disciples by our love for one another. I hope I’m making sense.. It is only recently that I have been considering their claims and have been trying to find fault with them so I can move on if the claims aren’t true. I love your show and ministry, thank you and God bless!
John
John,
Just a short answer for now, and perhaps I’ll address this on the air soon too. The fact is there was NO clergy-laity distinction among the first believers, and the disciples of the apostles were not called priests or father in distinction from the rest of the Body. The Greek Orthodox Church relies mainly on later traditions that antedate the NT and the first generations of disciples, as does the Catholic Church — which is why I reject those traditions whenever they contradict the Word.
These words from Jesus really say it all in terms of the principles involved (and note: “you are all brothers”!):
Matthew 23:8-11 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
Thanks Dr.Brown, I didn’t think of their traditions (certain ones at least- mainly the sacraments) antedating the NT, because they claim that before the NT was fully written and compiled, it was the old testament with traditions passed down to them which they held until of course certain epistles and gospels were being circulated. They base the importance of tradition on what Paul said in 2 Thesalonians 2:15
As far as Mathew 23:8-11, I can’t see much of an argument against that- although I have heard that the translation can also read “neither be called doctors” which I know you and many other well respected believers go by unneccesarily(not a personal attack). We also call people Pastor so and so and evangelist so and so which also seems to go against the principle. I know Jesus isn’t wrong, I hope to understand more of what He’s saying if wer’e not outright disobeying Him.
I don’t want to argue/debate just to argue/debate, and I search my heart to make sure I’m not- I can only trust God. Thanks again, and I was actually wanting to request if you could maybe do a show on it(keeping in mind it seems to be a lot of info). I also thought of a debate between you and maybe a convert to Orthodox- (I also understand if people’s schedules may not allow it to be so and if their are other things of higher priority)
John
John,
We have clear evidence that some of the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church were contrary to early Church practices (like calling leaders priests).
As for the passage in Matthew 23, I’ll probably comment on it on the air one of these days, and yes, I’d love to discuss the issues with a leader or convert to Greek Orthodoxy on the show one day.
Thanks!
Sounds great, I’d love to hear your comments and objections.
I do agree that they weren’t calling leaders “Priests” in the 1st century church, but we did eventually call them “Priests” many years later- before we started calling them “Elder”, “Pastor” or “Deacon” etc. Whether “Priest” or “Elder”, the argument of calling leaders by these respectable titles can be argued on both sides. Jesus is the good shepherd, so why are we calling eachother “Shepherd/Pastor”? is an equal argument to Jesus is our High Priest (or we are all priests), so why are we calling eachother “Priest”?
I guess whether we call eachother “elder” or “priest” whether it be first or second chronologically in history, it seems to be wrong in light of Matthew 23:8-11
Thanks for being a light- hope that’s not a respectable title- haha 😉
“Messiah son of Joseph was slain, as it is written, “They shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son”..
Is this an accurate quote from the Talmud?
Eric, sure thing! It’s the one and only reference to Messiah son of Joseph in the Talmud.
Great! That is wonderful.. Thanks so much!
God bless you Dr. Brown, I really appreciate your work.
John, Re: “Doctors”. In most fields of academic and professional studies the PhD is awarded those who do original and significant research after completing complete survey studies of the major literature published in their specific fields. This takes dedication, years of endeavor, and oversight by mentors alike credentialed.
The hoops one must jump through to usually earn such degrees are political, scholarly, validity based, dissertation intense, peer reviewed, and involve accreditation standards. The final word on this is as to qualification standards met.
As a brother Michael Brown so identifies and calls himself (and compassionately so), indeed breaking down any false dichotomy between us; as someone credentialed in academics who has earned the highest possible degree–and further validated his expertise by publications which have been reviewed as outstanding–we can comfortably call him an “expert judge” in his areas of expertise. These would include Jewish studies, NearEastern languages and linguistics, Messianic Theology. scriptural translation and transliteration, research, accurate contextual and historical criticism (please forgive any ommissions). We can be thankful that God has raised up someone to these standards who has maintained faith, hope, and love as his personal and relational goals.
Dear Dr. Brown,
I wasn’t sure if this was the appropriate place to ask this but I hope you don’t mind.
In Zechariah chapter 6, verse 12 it says (NKJV) Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord…
Now I always like to check online targums, Jewish commentary, specifically Rashi. Now I do this to see if it could help point a seeking religious Jew in the way of the Mashiach.
Now I looked up what Rashi said and he said:
“whose name is the Shoot: He is Zerubbabel, mentioned above (3:8): “Behold, I bring My servant, the Shoot,” since his greatness burgeoned little by little. Some interpret this as referring to the King Messiah, but the entire context deals with the [time of the] Second Temple.”
I am wondering, but.. Is Rashi hinting that some Jews indeed expected the Messiah at the time of the Second Temple?
Perhaps I am reading into this. But, I figure you are the one to go to.
Thanks, bless you.
Hi there mates, I am again here, and reading this post Dispelling Popular Myths (including The Archko Volume, Clergy and Laity, and The Reason for Tithing) : Line of Fire related to SEO, its also a fastidious piece of writing, so keep it up.
This was a great show. Two comments: 1) When you were talking about our desire to find something new and secret, I could not help but think how people have changed very little. 2) The clergy/laity distinction was some really good preaching. This message needs to get out more. Thanks Dr. Brown.
“The clergy/laity distinction was some really good preaching. This message needs to get out more. Thanks Dr. Brown.”
I couldn’t agree more, Yvette.
Dr. Michael Brown thanks for the show, you got me thinking about this quote and I am curious if you could tell me this quote is a real quote or made up? I’ve used it witnessing to Jewish brothers and sisters to build a foundation for the trinity from ancient Jewish Rabbi’s or Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai specifically (hopefully). I just assumed it was a real quote because it was on the Jews for Jesus website and a few others. However I have never verified the Zohar to see if it’s there, I was hoping you could tell me if you know it’s truly in the Zohar or not. If you aren’t sure don’t worry about it. Thanks!
Here is the quote:
“Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unity.” (Zohar II:43b (vol. 3, p. 134 in the Soncino Press edition)
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all [is] vanity. /save /Phl 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. Phl 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me./ Great program Brother… disciple is the highest calling AMEN!!!
Eric,
The quote is accurate! In fact, I just checked it again on my rabbinic literature software and read it in English and Aramaic, just to be sure I’ve seen some other Zohar citations which were dubious, but this one is not.
According to my edition, however, it is from the Zohar section called Raya’ Mehemnah, 43b (so, that is more precise than II:43b).
Great! Thanks Dr. Brown,
I really appreciate you took the time to check that for me and I will take note of that more precise section. Thanks so much again,
Eric.
Can u keep me in prayers
Hi Rev. James Lauzon yes that sounds great, I would love to pray for you.
Though I accept your assertion, Dr. Brown, that there are no “conspiracies” regarding “secret texts,” etc., I feel it is important to recognize that conspiracies themselves still do occur.
Sometimes people nowadays say the word “conspiracy” in a tone that implies one is out in left field to have any sort of “conspiracy theory.” Actually, realistically, conspiracies do happen. A conspiracy is just a few or a group of people, who, having met privately, have discussed and decided to implement a plan which they intend to keep completely secret. Certainly, history contains many proven instances of “conspiracies.”
I’ve just noticed that that word has now become synonymous with “fruitcake” in the current parlance. We shouldn’t go too far and throw out the idea that conspiracies can and do happen, because they still do.
But yes, I believe you in regards to what you covered in this broadcast re: conspiracies.
Hi Dr. Brown, thank you for this episode (one of many which I have gleaned from). I have been considering the claims of the Eastern Orthodox Church of it being the true Apostolic Church holding the true tradition passed down from the apostles. I think they would agree with you that every christian is called to make disciples (not just the Priests/Fathers). I think it is only the Priests though who are the one’s allowed to give the Eucharist(they would agree that all believers are priests in light of scripture). Their leaders are not called pastors/elder etc. but they call them Priests or “Father” being in line with how the early church did things.
Their aim is simply to be as close to the early church that they can in light of the fact that they were the closest to the apostles (St. Ignatius for example who was discipled by the John the Apostle said that the eucharist was the medicine of immortality). The early church seemed to have more than a view of the eucharist being just a symbol (baptism as well for that matter). I know that’s a side note but we can easily throw away their claims based on the views we already know they hold which we aren’t comfortable with (not saying we’re doing that, but I know I have in the past).
Could you help me understand why we as part of the western church do not hold to the same tradition and interpretation that was passed down to us from the early church fathers. I have also been hearing testimonies of solid brethren converting to the orthodox church. It seems that in the first four centuries their was unity and one universal church. Today,someone can be excommunicated and walk down the street to another “church” and feel as if everything is fine. Jesus’ prayer was for us to be unified- I know we’re all still gonna have different personalities etc. but we should be unified and in agreement with eachother at least with regard to the faith that was delivered to the saints through the apostles- the Lord said that other’s would know we are His disciples by our love for one another. I hope I’m making sense.. It is only recently that I have been considering their claims and have been trying to find fault with them so I can move on if the claims aren’t true. I love your show and ministry, thank you and God bless!
John
John,
Just a short answer for now, and perhaps I’ll address this on the air soon too. The fact is there was NO clergy-laity distinction among the first believers, and the disciples of the apostles were not called priests or father in distinction from the rest of the Body. The Greek Orthodox Church relies mainly on later traditions that antedate the NT and the first generations of disciples, as does the Catholic Church — which is why I reject those traditions whenever they contradict the Word.
These words from Jesus really say it all in terms of the principles involved (and note: “you are all brothers”!):
Matthew 23:8-11 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
Thanks Dr.Brown, I didn’t think of their traditions (certain ones at least- mainly the sacraments) antedating the NT, because they claim that before the NT was fully written and compiled, it was the old testament with traditions passed down to them which they held until of course certain epistles and gospels were being circulated. They base the importance of tradition on what Paul said in 2 Thesalonians 2:15
As far as Mathew 23:8-11, I can’t see much of an argument against that- although I have heard that the translation can also read “neither be called doctors” which I know you and many other well respected believers go by unneccesarily(not a personal attack). We also call people Pastor so and so and evangelist so and so which also seems to go against the principle. I know Jesus isn’t wrong, I hope to understand more of what He’s saying if wer’e not outright disobeying Him.
I don’t want to argue/debate just to argue/debate, and I search my heart to make sure I’m not- I can only trust God. Thanks again, and I was actually wanting to request if you could maybe do a show on it(keeping in mind it seems to be a lot of info). I also thought of a debate between you and maybe a convert to Orthodox- (I also understand if people’s schedules may not allow it to be so and if their are other things of higher priority)
John
John,
We have clear evidence that some of the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church were contrary to early Church practices (like calling leaders priests).
As for the passage in Matthew 23, I’ll probably comment on it on the air one of these days, and yes, I’d love to discuss the issues with a leader or convert to Greek Orthodoxy on the show one day.
Thanks!
Sounds great, I’d love to hear your comments and objections.
I do agree that they weren’t calling leaders “Priests” in the 1st century church, but we did eventually call them “Priests” many years later- before we started calling them “Elder”, “Pastor” or “Deacon” etc. Whether “Priest” or “Elder”, the argument of calling leaders by these respectable titles can be argued on both sides. Jesus is the good shepherd, so why are we calling eachother “Shepherd/Pastor”? is an equal argument to Jesus is our High Priest (or we are all priests), so why are we calling eachother “Priest”?
I guess whether we call eachother “elder” or “priest” whether it be first or second chronologically in history, it seems to be wrong in light of Matthew 23:8-11
Thanks for being a light- hope that’s not a respectable title- haha 😉
“Messiah son of Joseph was slain, as it is written, “They shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son”..
Is this an accurate quote from the Talmud?
Eric, sure thing! It’s the one and only reference to Messiah son of Joseph in the Talmud.
Great! That is wonderful.. Thanks so much!
God bless you Dr. Brown, I really appreciate your work.
John, Re: “Doctors”. In most fields of academic and professional studies the PhD is awarded those who do original and significant research after completing complete survey studies of the major literature published in their specific fields. This takes dedication, years of endeavor, and oversight by mentors alike credentialed.
The hoops one must jump through to usually earn such degrees are political, scholarly, validity based, dissertation intense, peer reviewed, and involve accreditation standards. The final word on this is as to qualification standards met.
As a brother Michael Brown so identifies and calls himself (and compassionately so), indeed breaking down any false dichotomy between us; as someone credentialed in academics who has earned the highest possible degree–and further validated his expertise by publications which have been reviewed as outstanding–we can comfortably call him an “expert judge” in his areas of expertise. These would include Jewish studies, NearEastern languages and linguistics, Messianic Theology. scriptural translation and transliteration, research, accurate contextual and historical criticism (please forgive any ommissions). We can be thankful that God has raised up someone to these standards who has maintained faith, hope, and love as his personal and relational goals.
Dear Dr. Brown,
I wasn’t sure if this was the appropriate place to ask this but I hope you don’t mind.
In Zechariah chapter 6, verse 12 it says (NKJV)
Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord…
Now I always like to check online targums, Jewish commentary, specifically Rashi. Now I do this to see if it could help point a seeking religious Jew in the way of the Mashiach.
Now I looked up what Rashi said and he said:
“whose name is the Shoot: He is Zerubbabel, mentioned above (3:8): “Behold, I bring My servant, the Shoot,” since his greatness burgeoned little by little. Some interpret this as referring to the King Messiah, but the entire context deals with the [time of the] Second Temple.”
I am wondering, but.. Is Rashi hinting that some Jews indeed expected the Messiah at the time of the Second Temple?
Perhaps I am reading into this. But, I figure you are the one to go to.
Thanks, bless you.
Hi there mates, I am again here, and reading this post Dispelling Popular Myths (including The Archko Volume, Clergy and Laity, and The Reason for Tithing) : Line of Fire related to SEO, its also a fastidious piece of writing, so keep it up.