Love and discipline go hand in hand.You can’t have one without the other.God disciplines those he loves.
I believe preaching the cross is sharing the love and wrath of God. As William Lane Craig said:
“The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God’s justice and love. They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God. At the cross we see God’s love for people and His wrath upon sin.
On the one hand we see God’s love. Jesus died in our place. He voluntarily took upon himself the death penalty of sin that we deserve. The Bible says, “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins” (1Jn. 4.10).
But at the cross we also see God’s wrath, as His just judgment is poured out upon sin. Jesus was our substitute. He tasted death for every human being and bore the punishment for every sin. None of us can imagine what he endured. As Olin Curtis has written, “There alone our Lord opens his mind, his heart, his personal consciousness to the whole inflow of the horror of sin, the endless history of it, from the first choice of selfishness on, on to the eternity of hell, the boundless ocean of desolation, he allows wave upon wave to overwhelm his soul.”1 Jesus endured hell for us, so that none of us would have to endure it ourselves…” http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5301
GOD the FATHER of MERCY 2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 2Cr 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain.” What happened at the cross had nothing to do with reason our God preformed the sacrifice necessary to rescue us from the curse of the tree of knowledge (reason). According to His promise (Gal. 3-16) Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. PRAISE HIM!! The Father of Mercy
Psalms 39:7-11 “And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee. Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish. I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst it. Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand. When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.”
If there is no punishment for sin, if there is no wrath against evil, then what purpose does salvation serve? What then are we to be saved FROM? And ultimately, why should we repent unless there is a consequence for whatever choice we make?
A parent who loves their child disciplines them so that harsher consequences may be avoided in the future. A God who will not correct, judge and punish sin is not worthy of our worship or our praise.
Thank you, Adonai, for loving us enough to correct us.
Amen and Amen… Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish…A parent who loves their child disciplines them so that harsher consequences may be avoided in the future.//2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Truth tempers grace, and grace truth. One without the other would not be Jesus.
Another thing I’d like to add is mercy triumphs over judgment. Amen!
Had some ministers of my [former] church over for lunch about a year ago. Can’t forget what one said: “The world believes in an angry God; we believe in a satisfied God.” When I asked him about what Jesus said, of “the wrath to come,” he acknowledged that somewhat hesitantly. I didn’t argue with them, but it stuck in my mind.
I like that you {Dr. Brown] differentiate between judgement and wrath. Wrath would seem to point to a final stage of God’s disappointment. In the prophetic writings, He always gives abundant warnings first and is actually very patient. I recall He spared King Josiah from seeing the wrath to come in his own lifetime due to Josiah’s spirit, but Josiah knew it was going to come to his people because of all the warnings given to his predecessors. We know that the cup of God’s wrath is filling, and looking at the world, we can surely see why. I know He prefers mercy and would that we just repent because He takes no delight in the death of a sinner. But calling him a “satisfied God” at this point — isn’t that premature?
Ruth, It may be that what those ministers were referring to (and I don’t know for certain) was that because God’s Word goes out and produces whatever He desires, He has foreseen the end of ends; He knows His plans will all be accomplished. He is one who can really ‘laugh at the calamity to come’ because He knows the good ending; He foresees the rejoicing and the drying of the tears forever. In that sense, He can, at some promised point, enter into His rest with the knowledge that all that was predicted will surely come to pass — His word will not be unfruitful.
Can God then, be “satisfied” even though we, in our sense of the experience of time, be in the midst of great turmoil? Well, again, we are not God and we are not experiencing God’s reality. From His vantage point, He may even be laughing now! I don’t say that to imply that God is cruel; only that He knows what will be; He has predicted and promised a wonderful end to the travail we are currently — and not just us, but all of creation — experiencing. We never have such a sense of security; we are constantly being “surprised” by events. Not so the LORD. So it may be possible that your friends were viewing God as being “satisfied” in that light…
Best, Yoh
Dr. Brown, Because of the red line on the website, I thought I was downloading the program where you speak on the new findings of the possible ark of Noah. I was looking between the red lines.
I’m glad I listened to this program.
As to the question, “Why don’t we hear more about God’s wrath?”
When we hear about God’s wrath, the word “Justice” comes up, and it seems to me that we have far too many churches where the leadership doesn’t want to do the work of the gospel concerning justice.
It seems to me that too often church leadership doesn’t want to deal with justice, judgment, delivering from oppression, hearing matters of oppression, delivering by the gospel after hearing specific cases people may have.
Each one of these cases is an opportunity for the gospel to be delivered and also the deliverance of a soul.
Why was it Moses spent from sun up to sun down hearing cases the people had? Wasn’t it because of the first commandment? Wasn’t that what motivated him to do that work?
I believe it’s time the Church as a whole looked more into the roots of what we’ve been called into.
Who is it that makes the plea, “Please have mercy” on behalf of another who is suffering some abuse of some kind that is the cause of some present suffering?
This kind of work brings the gospel home. It puts the shoe on the road, the tires to the pavement, and I trust, the power to the wheels.
Isn’t that what we seem to be afraid of…experiencing God, learning about our heavenly Father, learning from him, learning about Jesus our saviour?
Psalm 90:11
Elihu makes his point at the end. “Touching the Almighty we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: Men do therefore fear him…”
And he said, “Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise in heart.”
Eliphaz began his discourse with the report of a vision of the night, which I believe was something of the night and not of the day, and it had a message about respect that was a bit off.
Because God is just, knowing what is right, and his judgment is higher than our understanding, we can not know him as we may think we do, or as we may wish at times that we could, (find him out)but because he is just, right, and good, men do fear him in a godly kind of way, which is the beginning of everything.
Isn’t it time the Church begin to make use of what God has given us to minister to the oppressed, the suffering, the hurting, those who are willing to come to some kind of justice, as justice should be? Won’t they come to church for that?
I should think that the just will, those who hunger and thirst for what is right, because of Jesus, because of the mercy and grace of our Father God.
Ray, even though you are addressing Dr. Brown; let me say, “Right on!” I definitely think the Church’s “silence” on matters of justice is one of its most devastating positions.
Yoh, I do like your explanation of what these ministers may actually have meant. Thank you. It is strangely comforting.
Avraham Fried’s “Father Don’t Cry” from his album “Bein Kach Ubein Kach”
Michael I hope its OK to post this here its a live stream of Greg Boyd Q&A Today at(5PM Pacific) on the Wrath of God….Greg has many deep insights on Gods Love but I feel he misinterprets Gods Wrath as if Gods not allowed to ever get angry… Anyway I wanted to post this hear because it should be interesting and I would love to see you debate him on a few issues…PEACE
Yes the same Apostle John who wrote all about Love , wrote all about wrath
In John chapter 14, Jesus told the disciples or believers. “I go” to prepare a place for you and will come again to receive….that you may be with me, (physically) and always.There is a coming judgment against sin… but on the other hand, a coming eternal physical dwelling in the presence of Jesus for all believers. Love without justice is always questionable. The re-gathering of the Jewish people back to Jerusalem, should be an eye opener, especially for people who understands the Bible.Jesus will return only after his earthly covenant people welcomes Him.
Love and discipline go hand in hand.You can’t have one without the other.God disciplines those he loves.
I believe preaching the cross is sharing the love and wrath of God. As William Lane Craig said:
“The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God’s justice and love. They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God. At the cross we see God’s love for people and His wrath upon sin.
On the one hand we see God’s love. Jesus died in our place. He voluntarily took upon himself the death penalty of sin that we deserve. The Bible says, “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins” (1Jn. 4.10).
But at the cross we also see God’s wrath, as His just judgment is poured out upon sin. Jesus was our substitute. He tasted death for every human being and bore the punishment for every sin. None of us can imagine what he endured. As Olin Curtis has written, “There alone our Lord opens his mind, his heart, his personal consciousness to the whole inflow of the horror of sin, the endless history of it, from the first choice of selfishness on, on to the eternity of hell, the boundless ocean of desolation, he allows wave upon wave to overwhelm his soul.”1 Jesus endured hell for us, so that none of us would have to endure it ourselves…”
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5301
GOD the FATHER of MERCY 2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 2Cr 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain.” What happened at the cross had nothing to do with reason our God preformed the sacrifice necessary to rescue us from the curse of the tree of knowledge (reason). According to His promise (Gal. 3-16) Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. PRAISE HIM!! The Father of Mercy
Psalms 39:7-11 “And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee. Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish. I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst it. Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand. When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.”
If there is no punishment for sin, if there is no wrath against evil, then what purpose does salvation serve? What then are we to be saved FROM? And ultimately, why should we repent unless there is a consequence for whatever choice we make?
A parent who loves their child disciplines them so that harsher consequences may be avoided in the future. A God who will not correct, judge and punish sin is not worthy of our worship or our praise.
Thank you, Adonai, for loving us enough to correct us.
Amen and Amen… Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish…A parent who loves their child disciplines them so that harsher consequences may be avoided in the future.//2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Truth tempers grace, and grace truth. One without the other would not be Jesus.
Another thing I’d like to add is mercy triumphs over judgment. Amen!
Had some ministers of my [former] church over for lunch about a year ago. Can’t forget what one said: “The world believes in an angry God; we believe in a satisfied God.” When I asked him about what Jesus said, of “the wrath to come,” he acknowledged that somewhat hesitantly. I didn’t argue with them, but it stuck in my mind.
I like that you {Dr. Brown] differentiate between judgement and wrath. Wrath would seem to point to a final stage of God’s disappointment. In the prophetic writings, He always gives abundant warnings first and is actually very patient. I recall He spared King Josiah from seeing the wrath to come in his own lifetime due to Josiah’s spirit, but Josiah knew it was going to come to his people because of all the warnings given to his predecessors. We know that the cup of God’s wrath is filling, and looking at the world, we can surely see why. I know He prefers mercy and would that we just repent because He takes no delight in the death of a sinner. But calling him a “satisfied God” at this point — isn’t that premature?
Ruth,
It may be that what those ministers were referring to (and I don’t know for certain) was that because God’s Word goes out and produces whatever He desires, He has foreseen the end of ends; He knows His plans will all be accomplished. He is one who can really ‘laugh at the calamity to come’ because He knows the good ending; He foresees the rejoicing and the drying of the tears forever. In that sense, He can, at some promised point, enter into His rest with the knowledge that all that was predicted will surely come to pass — His word will not be unfruitful.
Can God then, be “satisfied” even though we, in our sense of the experience of time, be in the midst of great turmoil? Well, again, we are not God and we are not experiencing God’s reality. From His vantage point, He may even be laughing now! I don’t say that to imply that God is cruel; only that He knows what will be; He has predicted and promised a wonderful end to the travail we are currently — and not just us, but all of creation — experiencing. We never have such a sense of security; we are constantly being “surprised” by events. Not so the LORD. So it may be possible that your friends were viewing God as being “satisfied” in that light…
Best,
Yoh
Dr. Brown,
Because of the red line on the website, I thought I was downloading the program where you speak on the new findings of the possible ark of Noah. I was looking between the red lines.
I’m glad I listened to this program.
As to the question, “Why don’t we hear more about God’s wrath?”
When we hear about God’s wrath, the word “Justice” comes up, and it seems to me that we have far too many churches where the leadership doesn’t want to do the work of the gospel concerning justice.
It seems to me that too often church leadership doesn’t want to deal with justice, judgment, delivering from oppression, hearing matters of oppression, delivering by the gospel after hearing specific cases people may have.
Each one of these cases is an opportunity for the gospel to be delivered and also the deliverance of a soul.
Why was it Moses spent from sun up to sun down hearing cases the people had? Wasn’t it because of the first commandment? Wasn’t that what motivated him to do that work?
I believe it’s time the Church as a whole looked more into the roots of what we’ve been called into.
Who is it that makes the plea, “Please have mercy” on behalf of another who is suffering some abuse of some kind that is the cause of some present suffering?
This kind of work brings the gospel home. It puts the shoe on the road, the tires to the pavement, and I trust, the power to the wheels.
Isn’t that what we seem to be afraid of…experiencing God, learning about our heavenly Father, learning from him, learning about Jesus our saviour?
Psalm 90:11
Elihu makes his point at the end.
“Touching the Almighty we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: Men do therefore fear him…”
And he said, “Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise in heart.”
Eliphaz began his discourse with the report of a vision of the night, which I believe was something of the night and not of the day, and it had a message about respect that was a bit off.
Because God is just, knowing what is right, and his judgment is higher than our understanding, we can not know him as we may think we do, or as we may wish at times that we could, (find him out)but
because he is just, right, and good, men do fear him in a godly kind of way, which is the beginning of everything.
Isn’t it time the Church begin to make use of what God has given us to minister to the oppressed, the suffering, the hurting, those who are willing to come to some kind of justice, as justice should be? Won’t they come to church for that?
I should think that the just will, those who hunger and thirst for what is right, because of Jesus, because of the mercy and grace of our Father God.
Ray, even though you are addressing Dr. Brown; let me say, “Right on!” I definitely think the Church’s “silence” on matters of justice is one of its most devastating positions.
Yoh, I do like your explanation of what these ministers may actually have meant. Thank you. It is strangely comforting.
Dr. Brown, what do you think of this article?
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Moriah/moriah.html
Someone on Facebook shared this song called “Father Don’t Cry” ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9R72YpPq10
Avraham Fried’s “Father Don’t Cry” from his album “Bein Kach Ubein Kach”
Michael I hope its OK to post this here its a live stream of Greg Boyd Q&A Today at(5PM Pacific) on the Wrath of God….Greg has many deep insights on Gods Love but I feel he misinterprets Gods Wrath as if Gods not allowed to ever get angry…
Anyway I wanted to post this hear because it should be interesting and I would love to see you debate him on a few issues…PEACE
http://bridge.whchurch.org/
Yes the same Apostle John who wrote all about Love , wrote all about wrath
In John chapter 14, Jesus told the disciples or believers. “I go” to prepare a place for you and will come again to receive….that you may be with me, (physically) and always.There is a coming judgment against sin… but on the other hand, a coming eternal physical dwelling in the presence of Jesus for all believers. Love without justice is always questionable. The re-gathering of the Jewish people back to Jerusalem, should be an eye opener, especially for people who understands the Bible.Jesus will return only after his earthly covenant people welcomes Him.