1. Eric,

    As I have stated earlier, I do not see any contridictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. For me it is all one book–even in the same cover. I study from both as the word of God. Please read where I quoted from Elder Holland–the 2nd half about the Book of Mormon.

    As to which is right–I see them focusing on different points regarding the doctrines of faith and works. I guess the real question is this:

    Regarding ‘contradictions’ (and I don’t see one) in the Bible, which book do you consider more authoritative or right:
    The Book of Ephesians
    Ephesians 2:8-9
    “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”


    The Book of James
    James 2:17,24
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    My point is that they are both important to understanding the doctrines of the Gospel.

    Now I may tend to read the Book of Mormon more than I do the other scriptures–but only because it is clearer and easier to read–Just as you may read the New Testament more than the Old. But there are many things that can only be understood by reading the New Testament–or the Old for that matter. And when I want to study the life of Christ–I can only go to the New Testament although his doctrines and prophesies about him are taught in both the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon.

    Ben KC,

    No I do not regard the Bible as being the FULL and FINAL authoritative revelation–but I have the same view of the Book of Mormon as well as the Doctrine & Covenants, etc. and even looking at them all together. I look to only one source for the FULL and FINAL authoritative word of God and that is God HIMSELF. If he wants to reveal something new for our learning and benefit tomorrow… I am ‘all ears’ and eager to learn and obey his latest revelation as well as all of his previous revelations. I deny all contradictions within the word of God–surely God is able to make sense of things. I do admit that your understanding of scripture and doctrine can differ from or contradict mine or Dr. Brown’s or anyones… Hence the need to turn to God and ask in faith, praying to know AND understand God’s words. Hence also, the need for centralized and authoritative leadership to act as the mouthpiece and representative of God in the church who has the authority and priesthood of God to guide the Church in His name. I believe that President Thomas Monson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is such a man today–even a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator–the only man on the earth who holds and has the authority of God to exercise all the keys of the kindgom–as did Peter of old.

    S. Johnson,

    I appreciate your sincerity and kind words.
    I will respond to your question about the infinite regress of gods, etc. later.
    As to the issue of the Nicene Creed–please state what you dissagreed with in the quote mentioned. I agree that at the time there was need to come to a decision about the understanding of God–which makes our point that revelation to the Church (not personal revelation) had ceased and they, therefore could not rely on God or the Bible, but had to develop a creed to understand God–based not on revelation but logical arguments and understanding of the Bible.

    I have no problem with trying to understand and study the scriptures logically–apollagetics, etc., but I think that that misses the point.

    True conversion–a true understanding and testimony of Jesus Christ and his Word comes only by personal revelation after study and faith and prayer. I believe that the witness of the Holy Spirit is much stronger and more compelling than any logical reasoning and argument based on the limited intellect of man. God’s wisdom is much greater and when his spirit communicates on a personal level with our spirits, we gain wisdom and knowledge that transcends traditional learning.

    This relates to your other points on the video clip (I have not yet watched the whole thing, but based on the intro–which I considered rather supersillious and somewhat offensive–I sort of get the point about historical and empirical evidence). I do not need that sor of evidence for my belief in God or faith in Jesus Christ. I have spiritual evidence and the testimonies of all the prophets and the Holy Scriptures to back it. And I have full faith that at some future day–God willing, we will find that all of the claims about the Book of Mormon will be validated… I have found no research, no archeological finds to give me any doubts in my beliefs. And even if we must wait until the final day of Judgement and the end of the world… the truth will be known.
    As stated by the 1st of the Prophets who wrote in the Book of Mormon:

    2 Nephi 33:10-15
    10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
    11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
    12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.
    13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.
    14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall ccondemn you at the last day.
    15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must bobey. Amen.

  2. Ryan,

    Thanks for responding to everyone, and hopefully, over time, if you humble yourself, God will open your heart to the truth.

    But since you believe God gave written revelation after the Bible, perhaps He gave written revelation after the Book of Mormon? Why not? Perhaps there is another group who has the full revelation that has now superseded the Book of Mormon?

    May the Lord deliver you from deception, and may you have the courage to follow His truth, no matter what it costs!

  3. Ryan,

    I am surprised you deny that there are contradictions from the book of Mormon when comparing it to the Bible.

    Also, there are many new religions that are being formed done in the name of Christ. Since you confirm you believe the Bible is not the full and final authoritative revelation, it sounds like you are or can be open to other religions that sprinkle “Christ” in their beliefs. This is very similar with Universalism.

    Ryan, Scripture warns to watch out for false prophets who will lead others away from Christ. Many false prophets will lead others to another “Jesus”, god, etc… False prophets may perform “supernatural” acts to make the audience believe if he/she has signs/wonder, therefore he/she must be telling the truth.

    I believe that prophets and prophecy still exist for today, but Scripture commands we test the words of the prophet or “prophet”. If what he/she says is a contradiction to the Bible, we reject it. God will not provide revelation that will contradict His Word.

    If you agree that God will not contradict Himself, then you need to also reexamine the Bible and the book of Mormon to see if there are contradictions. There are many tools on the internet or books that will give you a stare and compare with the Bible and the book of Mormon. If you continue to deny contradictions while many Biblical scholars confirm it, you are deceiving yourself to believe what you want to believe.

    I prophesy this to you. You are on this web site because God is reaching out to you because of His mercy. Be humble and pray to call out to Him. Ask Him to confirm Truth and filter out any deception and He will be faithful to answer you.

  4. Final post:

    As to S. Johnson’s question–we do not have a full understanding of that teaching or all of the mysteries of the kingdom and Eternity. It is not among the main, most essential doctrines taught and focused on in lds doctrine… That is to say, we focus more on faith in Christ, repentance and the basic doctrines of the Gospel–because trying to understand where God came from is not as essential as knowing that He is!, That he lives and loves us and wants us to return to him… He is our father, and that is what is important to me… but as to whether there is an infinite regress of Gods–I don’t see that it is anymore difficult to grasp than eternity (no beginning and no end) or the idea that past, present and future are all the same to God… Don’t get me wrong, I’ve studied philosophy and logic and mathmatics, etc. But, how God does his miracles and how he accomplishes all that he does is not as important to me as knowing that he did and does them. I suppose that if he wants me or anyone to know these things he will either reveal more on the subject or teach us in the hereafter. But one additional thought related to this matter: We believe (even as C.S. Lewis taught) that we are “no mere mortals.” That we have existed forever and will continue to exist forever and that this mortal life is but an extremely short albeit pivotal point in our eternal growth and progression…

    We accept God’s Word where ever it is found–if it is God’s word, and yes more scripture is being written by the current prophet and apostles–perhaps someday it will all be compiled and abridged into one book that will be called the Book of … whatever… And by the way we do not view the Book of Mormon as “superseding” the Bible, but as additional scripture–words he spoke to some of the scattered tribes of Izrael, we believe that there are/were others that we do not have. But we rejoice in having anther witness of the truth and Gospel of God and of Jesus Christ.

    The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

    My goal in coming to this website (which I feel I have accomplished–however inadequately) was to at least try to present the LDS position as compared to the anti-mormon misrepresentation…

    I am not attempting to convince anyone of anything or prove to anyone that we are right, but present our view on our christianity and doctrines and answer a few questions, etc.

    I enjoy discussing scripture, theology, doctrinal understand, etc. on a friendly basis. But I really feel unwelcome here… and so probably will not return–having accomplished my purpose.

    Should anyone like to continue a friendly debate (no hate mail or “YOU’RE WRONG!!!!” letters please–they’ll just be dropped in the spam list) feel free to e-mail me at legolasgalactica@yahoo.com

    Again I have enjoyed listening to Christian Radio, since I discovered it some weeks ago. But I wish the LDS beliefs and believers could at least garner a little more respect and kindness from those who profess to be Christians–even/especially if you believe we are led astray…

    I do not believe that to be the case. I humbly believe that God did restore his church, authority and the fulness of the Gospel in these latter days in preparation for his second coming.

    History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535–541

    1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
    2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
    4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
    6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
    7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
    9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
    10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


  5. Ryan;

    I don’t know if you are still out there, but the philosophical Dilemma I asked you about is not based on mystery; it is based in logic. Logic must have its way in that what is contradictory is false. Since an ifinite regress is impossible, any belief system that requires it to be true must also be false. Since God is the author of logic and reason and not the author of confusion, this must follow. Indeed, somethings are a mystery beyond our understanding, but those things that lead to contradictions are not a mystery,they simply cannot be true.

    As to your point that the Book of Mormon does not supersede the Bible, this is problematic as well as the former has contradictions with the latter. Once again, the laws of logic require that only one of the two books can be correct where contradictions occur. For example, John 1:1 in the Bible says….”and the Word was God”, where Joseph Smith’s version says the “Word was of God”, clearly the implications are quite different. Joseph Smith claimed that the Bible was corrupted (both OT and NT) at the time of the early church. The problem of course is that in Joseph Smith’s day the dead sea scrolls were not yet discovered. The dead sea scrolls show of course that we have the same text well before the time of Christ to 2000 years after the time of Christ. So the Archeological evidence is contrary to Smith’s claim.

    So in summary:
    1) There is no archeological artifactual evidence to support Joseph Smith’s claims; And indeed some of the archeological evidence contradicts Smith’s claims.
    2) There are no writings prior to 1830 to support Joseph Smith’s claims. There is no ancient copy of Nephi etc.
    3)Joseph Smith’s claims that the Bible was corrupted after the time of Christ is contradicted by the evidence. Joseph Smiths version of Isaiah in his translation of the Bible, does not agree with the Isaiah scroll that dates to 100 B.C.
    4)Joseph Smith’s belief system has the serious philosophical problem of dealing with and impossible infinite regress.
    5)Joseph Smith’s prophecies have failed (e.g. Where is the Temple in Missouri that was to have been built during the lifetimes of the original Mormon people in the 1830’s)

    Sorry Ryan, as much as I like your family values, your moral practices and Zeal, taken as a whole the facts just are not there to support your position.

  6. I forgot–I wanted to say that with over 13 million members and over 250,000 joining every year and with about 45,000 full-time missionaries serving at any given time—we must have something that is at least worth looking at.

    Here are some links to some free media about our beliefs (not anti–anything)

    Here is a link to a movie about finding faith in Christ that even anti-mormons could appreciate and use (not “corrupted” by the Book of Mormon as it is entirely based on and focused on the life of Christ as presented in the New Testament)



  7. Ryan, it says on your website that God withdrew His authority to direct the church that Jesus Christ had established.
    You should read the gospel of Matthew:
    Matthew 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. “
    You said that you have a movie that is focused on the life of Christ as presented in the New Testament, but the verse that I put down on this comment goes against your beliefs.



  8. I just listened to the radio rebroadcast of this message and can’t believe the conclusions reached based on our LDS beliefs. Jesus is the creator of all things and his blood can cleanse us from all sin… whatever.

    Also, Joseph Smith said regarding the saints that if the mormon saints were going to hell, that they would cast out the devil and make a heaven of it…

    See if you could make all this up like Joseph Smith did:
    The Book of Mormon Challenge

    If one scoffs at the missionary’s explanation of the Book of Mormon, he is in so many words claiming it to be false: That it is a deceiving fraud formulated through the efforts and talents of a common man. What is produced by one man can always be duplicated by another. The challenge that the Book of Mormon makes to the world is that of duplication. Because the book complies with every one of the following conditions, in order to produce a similar record, one must comply with the same conditions.
    Here is the challenge: Can you accept it?
    1. Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America.
    2. You are 23 years of age.
    3. You have had no more than three years of formal school education, and have spent your life in backwoods farming communities.
    4. Your history must be written on the basis of what you now know. There was no library that held information for Joseph Smith. You must use none. There is to be no research of any kind.
    5. Your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length.
    6. Other than a few grammatical corrections, you must have no changes in the text. The first edition as you dictate it to your secretary must stand forever.
    7. This record is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.
    8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. Cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins.
    9. Change your style of writing many times. Many ancient authors contributed to the Book of Mormon, each with his own style.
    10. Weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.
    11. You must claim that your smooth narrative is not fiction with moral value, but true and sacred history.
    12. You must include in you book fifty-four chapters dealing with wars, twenty-one historical chapters, fifty-five chapters on visions and prophecies. Remember, when you begin to write visions and prophecies, you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You must write seventy-one chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven a fraud. You must write twenty-one chapters on the ministry of Christ, and every thing you claim he said and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament.
    13. Many of the facts, claims, ideas, and statements given as absolute truth in your writing must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of these worldly beliefs must be the direct opposite of your claims.
    14. Included in your narrations will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; description of their clothing, crops, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their proper application and derivation.
    15. You will have to properly use figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, descriptions, oratory, epic lyric, and parables.
    16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and who are most competent to expose every flaw in it.
    17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet.
    18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people declaring it to be the word of God and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
    19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume.
    20. Claim with all seriousness that it is translated from ancient records written on gold plates that you no longer have because the angel that gave them to you took them back.
    21. Many theories and ideas as to its origin must arise, and after discovering and examining the facts, they must fail. You have claimed that your knowledge had come from divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increases to the point where it becomes the only logical explanation.
    22. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purposes, and its accomplishments.
    23. Call down an angel from heaven in the middle of the day and have him bear testimony to four honest, dignified citizens of your community that the record is the word of God. These witnesses must bear the angel’s testimony to the world, not for profit or gain, but under great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You must put that testimony to the test by becoming an enemy to these men.
    24. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for 165 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their life rather than deny their testimony of it.
    25. You must include with within the record this promise: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
    26. Missionaries must bear record to the world for the next 165 years that they know the record to be true because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    27. Over 52,900 plus competent salesman must be so sold on your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these years, but return bearing testimony that the time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing in return for their efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others.
    28. Your book must not only raise the standards of millions of people but do it in such a way that they become one of the great moral, ethical, and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become world renowned for this.
    29. For the next 20 years you must watch those that follow and you, your family, and the dearest of your loved ones persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what you have written on ancient Tibet.
    30. You must gain no wealth from your work, but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecution. And finally after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner, for your testimony concerning your history book. This must be done willingly on your part.
    31. Start right now and produce this record which covers 1,000 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances which include being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed, talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise money to have it printed – all in 60 days.
    There is only one answer: The Book of Mormon is a divine record. If not, its origin must be stated and its claims must be explained by the critic. It isn’t enough to merely discard it as false and forget about it!
    The first thing to do in examining any ancient text is to consider it in the light of the origin and background there is no need to look farther, since historical forgery is virtually impossible.

  9. Ryan said:

    ” forgot–I wanted to say that with over 13 million members and over 250,000 joining every year and with about 45,000 full-time missionaries serving at any given time—we must have something that is at least worth looking at.”

    Other religions such as the Muslim community are growing too. Does that mean they must have something? Increasing numbers do not indicate that they have the truth.

  10. However I must testify to the great love that the Father has for His precious creation and sending His Son to deliver us from unrighteousness. To the true God be glory forever in Yeshua, our Lord and Savior.

  11. The problem with the points presented here against Mormons is that they mingle truth with half lies presented in just the right way to make people immediately reject and run from Mormons and their teachings. (Which is obviously Dr. White’s goal–to keep people from learning the truth he cannot and will not accept)

    In fact were I not a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ myself and know the truth of these things, I too would be shocked and want nothing to do with “these people” and desire to try to save their lost and misled souls.

    He did pretty good by decietfully portraying us as polytheistic pagans who have gone off after the Ant-Christ and strange gods… the only things he left out to complete the picture are that we are polygamists who sell 9-yr-olds as wives, who sacrifice virgins and children to our pagan gods in our unholy temples… eat their flesh and drink their blood. But there, now you know…

    But really, the truth of the matter is that we believe in God, we follow the teachings of his Son Jesus Christ and try to be like him and lead others to faith in him that they might also be saved through his grace and atoning sacrifice.

    We believe that God restored his priesthood authority and his gospel in it’s fullness. The Book of Mormon is proof of that restoration–read it, test it!

    The problem with the Christian world at large, ist that they are ashamed to admit they ever lost their way. Because they know they have no authority they try to claim that they need none. Because they lost the revelation of prophets and apostles to guide the church, they try to justify themselves by saying that the Bible is sufficient and even that there can be no more–that God has finished his work and left it to us until he comes again. By accepting new scripture and revelation from God and His restored church, they must also admit their own shortcomings which is to hard to do. So they try to find ways to reject the truth and justify their lack of faith by tearing down the true church of God and persecute its members for they threaten their way of life and traditions of faith.

    It is the same problem atheists have when confronted with the truths of God. They are not able to give up their pride and sins and previous views on the world that they thought justified them… So they make up lies to reject the truth and seek to destroy the faith of others for it threatens the foundation of all that they have built their lives on.

    I testify that I have read the scriptures–all of them and I have prayed to God to know the truth of these things and have recieved the burning in my heart and the witness of the Holy Spirit that they are true. That God lives and Jesus is the Christ–the Holy one of Israel and savior of all mankind if they will but believe in him and repent and be baptized as a covenant with God to keep his commandments.
    I testify that God has called a prophet even in our day and that he, under the direction of Christ himself, leads the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth. I testify that truth has been restored. That all the authority and ordinances of the gospel are restored. I know these things to be true by the witness of the Holy Ghost and testify of it in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

  12. The bible is the word of God. No other books hold merit. The new testament gospels where writen by eye witness acounts. Jesus spent 3 years with his disciples. If he had more to say to up hold the faith wouldn’t he have said it? Jesus said the last sign you will recive is that of jonha 3 days in the belly of a fish in contrast Jesus 3 days in the earth sign of jonah. No other revilation needed in exempt of john seeing the return of christ as christ promised.

    Do you believe that demonic forces could witness events on earth? Of corse they can! Even influance the souls of man. So then what makes you think they can not be active in such events as mascerading as angles of the living God!?! I.e. birthing false jesus(s). Are battle is not against flesh and blood but against the principalites of darkness. We must take the spirtual battle to them.

    I pray that all people of the world will chose to have a personal relationship with Jesus of the bible. Altho no matter how hard we try people will always want to meet God on their terms not His. He gave us what He wanted us to have in the bible.

    Religon is mans search for God. Christ is Gods search for man.

  13. I think the issue about christianity and why mormons are upset about being denied the name of Christian can be resolved if we merely define christianity.
    Mormons agree that their doctrines differ–even radically–that is exactly the truth we proclaim has been revealed/restored.
    Mormons claim the name christian for themselves–believing that a christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ as predicted in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament–the son of God, the creator of the world, the savior and redeemer of all man kind.
    If the term christian, however, is to mean that we accept the creeds formed hundreds of years after the first christians or regarding the Bible as the only and complete authority of God (which wasn’t compiled in it’s present form for nearly a thousand years…) then we would agree that the term does not apply.(we might ask who the people were called during the first 200 hundred years when niether of these conditions were met…)

    Listen to what author Orson Scott Card had to say about this during his debate with Dr. Mohler on the subject of mormons being christian:

    When Dr. Mohler quotes Paul’s warning that the Church of Christ should reject “a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you,” we Mormons wholeheartedly agree. We believe, and history supports, that the “traditional Christianity” that Dr. Mohler so ably explicates is remote indeed from the gospel that Paul taught.
    So I am happy to accept the formulation suggested by Dr. Mohler’s last sentence: “Mormonism is not just another form of Christianity — it is incompatible with ‘traditional Christian orthodoxy.’”
    Amen! Absolutely correct! We send out missionaries to every country that will allow them to enter precisely because we believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is incompatible with “traditional Christian orthodoxy.”
    At the same time, we recognize that “traditional Christian orthodoxy” represents a sincere desire and effort, on the part of millions of believers throughout the world, to teach and live by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Despite our deep differences of belief over the nature of God and his plans for his children, we recognize that those who believe in the other Christian faiths have taken a giant step closer to fulfilling the intentions of our Lord. They are, in heart and mind, Christians.
    We ask only the same favor in return. Let’s take that word “traditional” and make use of it. Instead of saying that we are “not Christian,” which is an obvious falsehood by any rational, widely accepted definition of the word Christian, let us agree that Mormons are “nontraditional Christians.”
    We’ll live with that label quite happily, because it’s true. We are Christians, but nontraditional ones. And if we ever become traditional, we’ll have no reason to exist as a separate religion!
    Meanwhile, history provides reason for optimism. The pope, while proclaiming that the Catholic Church and, despite defects, the Orthodox churches, represent the only authoritative Church of Christ, he still allows room for the “nonapostolic” Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Pentacostalists, and others that proclaim the name of Christ to be considered “Christian communities” and to have value.
    It took less than 500 years for Protestantism to graduate to a “tradition” instead of a “reformation” or, in the former Catholic view, a “heresy.”
    Baptists, who were once viewed as a wild-eyed sect of the American lower classes, have now been around long enough to be “traditional” right along with the older Protestant denominations.
    Now we live in a world where all believers in Christ — traditional or non — are assailed and persecuted. There is no shortage of atheists in foreign countries and in America who would like to limit the ability of any believer in a revelatory religion to achieve full participation and leadership in American politics.
    The intense criticism, both public and whispered, focused on President Bush precisely because he believes that God has intervened and continues to intervene in his life should be the wakeup call to all of us.
    Born-again Christians and Mormons agree on this: God is alive and working in the world, and his Spirit touches the lives of the faithful, offering guidance, comfort, and even miraculous intervention. This earns Baptists and Mormons the ridicule or hatred of the anti-religious extremists, who declare that our beliefs are a form of madness and proof that we are unfit for public trust.
    Call us “nontraditional Christians” and continue to encourage your communicants not to believe our doctrines; we’ll happily continue to call you “traditional Christians” and teach people why they should believe our doctrines.
    But when it comes to politics, let’s make common cause to maintain the full participation in American political life of believers in a living, active God whose Spirit touches the lives of all his children.
    Let’s work together to try to end the persecution of Christians throughout the world, for the enemies of Christ make no distinction between “traditional” and “nontraditional” Christians when they’re looking for targets of their fear and hatred.
    On these issues, we are on the same side.
    And every “traditional Christian” who, like Dr. Mohler, will include us nontraditional Christians as equally entitled to participation in all aspects of American public life, without encouraging people to vote against Mormon candidates because of their faith alone, will find that we Mormons are good friends to have in a world that is increasingly perilous for followers of Christ

  14. Ben KC, as to growing numbers showing truth, I agree that it does not show that the LDS church is true just because it’s growing quickly, but the dedication, faith and good fruit of so many people and the wonderous way in which it is growing is either a sign of truth and power of God or it is a great evil which needs to be halted, I believe the former, but either of those would be sufficient to call for closer examination. The muslims are growing and have some good, and have many passionate followers, They make claims about prophets, scripture, etc. I think it very worthwhile based on those claims to investigate them.
    Lets look at it:
    Mohammad claims to be a prophet, what are his fruits: From almost the very beginning his movement has led to war and death. His teachings marginalize or reject former prophets and even the divinity of Christ himself. His people, especially women are not free. His writings teach to hate the infidel and nothing about the salvation and grace of God through Jesus Christ.
    In summary: war, death, hate, bondage, abuse of women, and no Christ are his fruits.

    compare with the fruits of Joseph Smith who also brought forth scripture and claimed to be a prophet:
    Joseph Smith testified of God and of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the truth of the Atonement and Ressurection.
    He did not reject the Bible or the prophets, but taught extensively from it.
    The book of Mormon teaches to believe in Christ and Serve God.
    His people are full of faith, hope and charity. They love God and others and work hard to serve them and proclaim the gospel of Christ to the world.
    Despite extreme suffering and persecution, the mormons never resorted to violence, but relied on God despite being driven by the sword from their homes and lands, their cities and temples being burned and being denied the rights and protections of the Constitution.
    Mormons have a deep and abiding love of freedom and liberty, family, high Godly and moral standards, etc.
    We love the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C and all scriptures, we study them all diligently and love to hear the word of God from his chosen prophet.

    So the fruits of Joseph Smith are good, not evil.

    Where are all the evil fruits?

    We preach no other Jesus than he who was born of Mary, who walked and taught and worked many miracles among the Jews, who was rejected and crucified, but rose again the 3rd day. We worship no other God than the God of the Old and New Testaments.

    As for other scriptures which may be found:
    We long for the day when God will reveal other ancient scriptures as promised us.
    As for the socalled failed prophecy about the Missouri temple:
    We still await the day when we can return and build the temple in Missouri according to the will and timing of God. Because of disobedience, God did not allow it at the time as he first promised, but eventually it will be fulfilled. (Just as Izrael had to wait 40 years to obtain their inheritance because of wickedness and unbelief)

    I think the only reason we have especially in recent times been promoting our Christianity, is because it is one of the latest attacks against us. But we have always claimed to be Christian–even though we may be non-traditional ones. We always teach of Christ, his Atonement, the mercy, justice and grace of God. Almost every teaching focuses on faith in Christ and repentance.

    I don’t know but that we are the most Christ-centered church in the world, and that none are such strong and passionate defenders of the Christian cause the the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

    I’m sorry that so many of you are blinded by small and irronious claims by those who are bitter and missinformed. It is your preconceived views and biased understanding of doctrine which keeps you from seeing the truth.
    Anyone can portray only half the facts and twist the truth to meet their needs. But I am 100% sure that anyone who will honestly and openly examine the doctrines, writings and beliefs of the LDS Church in their entirety and not in isolation will come to see the wonder God has wrought among the children of men in this day!

  15. Colossians 1:15
    who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

    If the Father is invisible, how did Joseph Smith see him?

    The entire New Testament is based on being saved (delivered, set free, made whole) by the power of God’s Spirit through faith in the power of his sacrifice and resurrection.

    The entire Mormon faith is based on the premise that we can only be saved by following God’s Commandments and being good enough to be saved. It has the same foundation as every other false religion on the planet.

  16. I found the book of Morman to be rather dry reading, about as much fun as reading the rules to living in a condominum complex, something that has been known to put a man to sleep rather quickly.

    The Bible however, I found to be interesting and full of life. I found that I could find something good on every page, thank God for what I have found, and be filled.

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