1. Dear Dr. Brown,
    I usually enjoy your program, but today was an exception. Hearing Dr White speak, I was reminded of the Jews during the ministry of Jesus, those who would mock Jesus because He was not what they had expected. They didn’t believe Jesus was who He said He was because they didn’t have eyes to see or ears to hear.

    What if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true??? That would mean that Jesus Christ and God the Father did appear to Joseph Smith and the true Church was restored. It would mean that God speaks through a living prophet today.

    I want to ask you and Dr. White a question… Are you and Dr. White really about what you profess, or are you in it for the money, fame or power of your position??? Your anti-LDS attitude truly makes you suspect. The LDS Church never cuts other faiths down— they invite others to come and see for themselves if what they have to offer is true or not. They encourage their members to come to their own conclusions. Does that same philosophy threaten you in any way?

    I have investigated many different faiths in my lifetime. I’ll never forget the strong spirit I felt during a special Easter program held in a Baptist church I attended years ago. Over the years I’ve loved hearing people express their honest, heartfelt testimonies of Christ in many different religions. I don’t think there is one religion only that can lead a person to a belief in Christ —and neither does the LDS Church. Belief in Christ comes by hearing and applying God’s word in our life.

    I came to know God as my Savior, almost 22 years ago, after reading His words. I was truly born again, something people who knew me then and now can testify of. My life has never been the same and my love of the scriptures has only increased since then!

    Ever since I was born again, I have loved reading the Bible and Book of Mormon daily and I love hearing truth wherever it is spoken! My favorite movie to this day is, “Facing the Giants”, written by a Baptist. I love that movie because it is my story in many ways. I went from the depths of despair because of infertility, to the heights of being born of God in the Spirit and experiencing a love, peace and joy I had never known before.

    I don’t understand the need you have to make others believe the LDS Church is following a false Christ. Evil may confess that Jesus is the Christ, but evil doesn’t cause anyone to come to Christ and live by His teachings! I and millions of others like me have found faith in Christ and are now faithful members of the LDS Church. If the LDS Church were proven to be false I would never regret the person it has helped me become. Isn’t that the ultimate test of truth???


  2. Debbie,

    Thanks so much for taking the time to write. I’m going to ask Dr. White if he has a minute to respond to your important questions.

    I will, however, respond directly to the question you asked: “Are you and Dr. White really about what you profess, or are you in it for the money, fame or power of your position???”

    I can assure you before God — and I feel confident to answer this on behalf of Dr. White too — that we do what we do with all our hearts for the glory of God and for the sake of truth and for the good of His people and for the benefit of a dying, lost world. God knows I speak the truth! And we do it despite the fact that we often have to make financial sacrifices (to give one case in point, it is common for our debating opponents to receive generous honorariums while we debate for little in comparison, or sometimes for nothing), despite the fact that we are reviled and hated and mocked for our views. There are a thousand easier paths we could both follow — more lucrative and less controversial and painful — but we are committed to following Jesus regardless of the cost or consequences. We count it a sacred privilege.

    So, thanks for your question, and I hope my honest answer is meaningful to you. And hopefully, Dr. White will have time to respond to you as well.

  3. The exalted man concept can be traced to Madame Blavatsky, Allison Bailey and Alleister Crowley too.

  4. Dr. Brown, Debbie,
    I was raised LDS, I am 44 yrs old now, I was sealed in the Mt. Timpanogos Temple 9 yrs ago. I have held many positions in the LDS Church. I have studied church history, studied Joseph Smith, and for the last 4 yrs studied the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints claim, to be the only True church on the face of the earth. The claim that it is the only church that holds all the keys to eternal salvation. But more importantly I have studied the LDS churches claim that the Bible can’t be trusted as we have it, because it has been corrupted by evil men and wicked priests. And if the Bible can be trusted then I belief that one must come to the conclusion that everything else is false. Do you agree?

    Those are claims that must be validated and investigated by more then a prayer and a feeling. Would you agree, especially in light of the eternal consequences?

    You asked Dr. Brown the question; “What if the Church of Jesus Christ is true” I would ask you; What if its not?
    Then what would that mean in light of living prophets and apostles?, In light of the first vision account? What would that mean about the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price? The Joseph Smith Foot notes in the LDS King James Bible? Would you want to know that? Honestly do you want to know if those things are true or not?

    I would ask, to examine the use of the words “anti-lds attitude” Is it anti-lds to tell the facts or history of the LDS church or its origins or of Joseph Smiths history, even if those things are difficult to hear? If they are true they are true, would you agree? If I tell you that a bag of potato chips is bad for you because it has 1800 calories, 110 grams of fat, 2500 mg. of sodium. Does that make me anti-potato chip?

    I can ensure you Dr. White did not say a single thing on the show that was false.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does indeed say that there is no other way to salvation and God then by its teachings and by its authority. What if that was false?

    The need to help those who are LDS and others to understand that the Jesus of the Mormon church is a false Jesus is based on what the Bible teaches us about who Jesus is and who Jesus claims to be and who Jesus says He is, compared to what the LDS church teaches. You see if the Jesus that you believe in is false savior, then your faith is placed in a Savior that CAN’T save you.
    If you believe in a god that is not the One True God then you believe in an idol.

    Your correct “evil” doesn’t bring anyone to the true living LORD and Savior Jesus Christ, only the Father does. But Satan doesn’t care about or by how much you’re deceived, just as long as you are deceived, 99.99% truth is still a lie.

    I was one of those millions who placed his faith in the LDS church and its god and Jesus and was faithful to its teachings. May I ask a question? You say you have faith in Jesus, have you ever trusted Him and Him alone? You see my faith, as I examined it was placed more in the LDS church then in my LORD and Savior Jesus Christ, because I wasn’t following Him, I wasn’t believing Him and trusting Him, I didn’t believe His word, the Holy Scriptures. I accepted the LDS churches teaching that the Bible had been corrupted by evil men and wicked priests and that I needed a living prophet to restore the truths that had been removed from the word of God, and because I believed that teaching I was actually only following the LDS Church, not a Living God and LORD Jesus Christ, the only True Living God and Savior, the Only Savior that can actually save you or I.

    I don’t regret the life and friendships that were developed in the LDS Church; I still maintain some of them today. I was surprised however how some of those “friends” will disappear once you start talking about the relationship that you have with the LORD Jesus Christ and not about the religion of the LDS church anymore.
    But I do thank God that I found His truth before it was to late, I pray that you will read this with an open heart and with the love I intended in saying it.

    I don’t know if your in Utah, but if you are, I would be happy to talk to you or anyone else anytime, myself and a few others share the LORD Jesus Christ with others at the north gate on Temple Square on most Thursdays (were not the street screamers with the vile shocking signs that Dr. White mentioned, they are normally only there during conferences) in Salt Lake City, weather permitting. Please come out and visit with us anytime. You can look me up on Facebook as well if you would like to continue this conversation, if Dr. White doesn’t get back with you. Or send me an email at trikken123@yahoo.com. I would be happy to help you.

    I too love to hear the testimonies of the LDS members like yours, but my favorite testimony is Gods testimony, you can read it in Isaiah 43:10-11
    “Ye are my witnesses saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me and understand that I AM he. Before Me there was NO God formed, neither shall there be after ME. I, even I am the LORD and beside me there is NO Saviour.

    Now I ask you, if we believe the testimony of men,, how much more should we listen to and believe the testimony of God?

    I ask you the question again, what if you’re wrong? Do you really want to know? Do you think that the Truth Matters, even if it’s a hard thing to hear?

    God Bless you,
    Ken Rice

  5. Very informative program. It sounds like the surface of this was barely scratched! I find it important that Jesus didn’t only “point the way” but also exposed falsehood. Blessings!

  6. I went to an LDS church on a Sunday several years ago in my community. That day, everyone took turns walking up to the podium and saying, “My name is {so and so} and I know this Church is true.” EVERYONE did it, even the smallest children, and in the case of an infant, her father held her up and said, “This is [name] and she knows this church is true!”

    This is apparently some kind of ritual programming. If you are raised in a church which requires you to say this, year after year, over and over and over — where is the free will? Where is the understanding at the depths of your heart?

    I will never forget this experience. It left me shocked and baffled, and of course, I never returned.

    May God Bless these nice, well-meaning, and zealous folks with understanding that repetitive phrases like that do not substitute for real conviction.

  7. “The LDS Church never cuts other faiths down”

    That is a kind of “faith-promoting rumor”. Even the LDS Gospel Principles 2009 manual essentially calls classical Christianity “false Christianity” and its theology of God “pagan” and its adherents those who are “called” Christian. See chapter 16.

    Also, the entire Mormon religion is built upon the idea of the great apostasy. It’s very existence is based on the premise that us Protestants are sons of the apostasy. Smith’s founding story, in LDS scripture, says our creeds are an “abomination” and that our professors are corrupt. The pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony mocked “sectarian” ministers as paid hirelings of Satan himself.

    Jeffery Holland, in recent General Conference messages, has picked a number of different topics through which to criticize traditional Christianity, mocking the Trinity and the Christian belief in the sufficiency of the Bible, as well as the psychology of those who reject the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

    Historically, Mormonism has been extremely critical of Chrsitianity. See for example:

    “When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness” (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

    “The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

    “With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

    “Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity” (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

    “The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine” (Journal of Discourses 10:265).

    “… the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans” (Journal of Discourses 22:44).

    “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth” (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

    So while Mormons are very kind and sweet people, it is absolutely false and sometimes even deceptive to say that Mormonism does not put down other religions.

    Take care,


  8. Being from Asia I don’t know much about Mormonism, but after hearing this show and reading Debbie’s comments my sincere hope is that the Truth be established because the information shared here is somewhat disturbing on many levels.

    In Mormonism how is one saved? Or drilling in deeper, how are Mormons sanctified and justified before God?

    I ask to contrast it with the other religious structures predominant in Asia such as Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism. Each community producing pious individuals seeking redemption through a mixture of faith and works.

    However a common thread among most religions is a legalistic construct of laws, teachings and philosophy. Right living produces a righteous individual.

    Is Christianity any different? It depends on which denomination, and who you ask. Case in point, some believe that the catholic church is evil and have evangelized it to be so, and yet, some of my closest Catholic friends and family members are such a inspiration to me. (Me being a non denominational Christian)

    So the point is this. Facts needs to be checked and verified. This particular show is as provoking as a Christian Preacher evangelizing to ultra Orthodox Jews in the middle of Israel without first reading one of Dr Brown’s books 😉

    Great care and sensitivity is needed here –

  9. Greetings Debbie:

    Thank you for writing. Having spoken with many thousands of LDS over the years, I have heard your objections many times. Before I spoke on the subject of Mormonism publicly I took the time to study it carefully (even your own Scriptures require this: “But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” D&C 9:8). I read the LDS Scriptures, and such books as A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Articles of Faith, Jesus the Christ, and Mormon Doctrine. I obtained the Documentary History of the Church and the Journal of Discourses, etc. It is improper for anyone who loves the truth to respond to someone else’s beliefs sheerly out of emotional attachment to our own faith.

    You liken me to the Pharisees who rejected Jesus. May I suggest the parallel is to the Apostle Paul who, upon encountering false teachings about Jesus, said,

    “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.”
    (2 Corinthians 11:3–4 NASB)

    You asked, “What if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true???” Well, that’s the issue, isn’t it, Debbie? I have examined the claims of the LDS Church. I find 1) Joseph Smith fails the tests of a prophet, for he not only proclaimed a god beside Jehovah, but he gave forth false prophecies (D&C 114 as one good example); 2) the Book of Mormon is not a historical document and it proclaims false teachings (2 Nephi 25:23, Moroni 10:32, etc.); 3) the Doctrine and Covenants contains numerous false prophecies and tremendous contradictions to the inspired Scriptures (D&C 84, 130:22, 132 etc.); 4) the Pearl of Great Price contains amazing examples of Joseph Smith not being a prophet, the most glaring being the entirety of the Book of Abraham, which not only presents a gross polytheism (using “the gods” more than 45 times), but which has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a fraudulent “translation by the gift and power of God” of an Egyptian funerary document called the Book of Breathings (see Charles Larson’s tremendous book, _By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus_); and 5) Joseph Smith’s entire foundational story, known as “the First Vision,” is utterly fallacious, a story that developed over time, but which is contradicted by numerous facts of history, not the least of which is the fact that there was no revival in Palmyra in 1820–the exact revival Smith notes, even mentioning men who participated in it (such as Rev. Lane) who were not even *in* Palmyra at the time (the revival took place in 1824).

    Now Debbie, I would strongly encourage you to examine these facts for yourself, fairly and openly.

    You wrote, “Are you and Dr. White really about what you profess, or are you in it for the money, fame or power of your position??? Your anti-LDS attitude truly makes you suspect.” Money fame and power? Goodness, Debbie, what makes you think ministering to Mormons gives you any of that? In our world today anyone who would say, “This is truth, this is error,” is shunned as a narrow-minded bigot, so surely you cannot possibly believe this kind of argumentation is valid or sound. Besides, given all of the statements made by LDS leaders over the years critical of historic Christian faith, are you being consistent to think in this fashion? Does Joseph Smith’s claim that God called all the Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians “false” in their beliefs make him “anti-Christian” and therefore suspect as well? If not, why not?

    You wrote, “The LDS Church never cuts other faiths down— they invite others to come and see for themselves if what they have to offer is true or not.” May I direct you to the following article I wrote years ago that fully refutes this claim from LDS documents themselves? http://vintage.aomin.org/Quotations.html

    Debbie, the Jesus taught by the LDS Church may sound a lot like the Jesus of the Bible, but they could not possibly be more different. Over twenty five years ago I wrote a tract that we have distributed to thousands of Mormons over the decades. I would like to share it with you, Debbie, and ask you to seriously consider what it says.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the Mormon Church, speaks often of Jesus Christ. To most people it would seem that Mormonism is just another Christian denomination that teaches Jesus Christ. Is that true? What do the Mormons really teach about Jesus? Following is a list of some of the major points about Jesus as taught by the LDS Church. The references to Mormon scriptures, Mormon apostles, and prophets and their books will be found at the conclusion of this tract.

    Is God the Father’s firstborn spirit-child in heaven.1 Since, according to the LDS Church, each one of us was begotten in the same manner, the difference between us and Jesus is simply one of degree.

    Is the spirit brother of Lucifer, also known as Satan.2

    Was begotten here on earth by God the Father by natural means – just like any other man – and not by the Holy Ghost.3

    Sweat his blood for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane,4 and his blood cannot cleanse from all sin.5

    Is now one amongst many millions of other gods.6

    You may be shocked at these things. We invite you to look these references up for yourself. A lot of Mormons may not be familiar with one or two of these points, but most will admit them to be true. The vital question, then, is this: is the Jesus of Mormonism the Jesus of the Bible? The answer to that is an emphatic, NO!

    Here, briefly, is what the Bible says about Jesus:

    Is eternal.7 He never had a beginning; nor will He have an end. He is one with the Father,8 the only true God.9

    Created all things.10 Everything that exists, Christ created, including Lucifer, who became Satan.11

    Was begotten on earth by the Holy Ghost.12 His earthly mother was the Virgin Mary.

    Is able to cleanse from all sin through the blood He shed on the cross of Calvary.13

    Rose from the dead and has returned to heaven, from which He will return to judge the earth.14

    Where does the Bible say that God has a wife, and that He begets children? The Bible says that God creates the spirits of men, not that He begets them.15

    Since the Bible says Christ created all things, how can the Mormon Church teach that God the Father was once a man who lived on another planet?.16 Who created that planet? Remember, Jesus created all things, which would include every single planet in existence anywhere in the universe. If Mormonism is right, how could Jesus create a planet before he was even begotten and before his father had become a god?

    The Bible teaches the virgin birth of Christ. The miracle of the virgin birth is that Mary was a virgin at the time of the birth. The Mormon Church denies the virgin birth by saying that God the Father in a physical body begot Jesus in the same way we are begotten by our fathers.17 How can this blasphemous teaching be reconciled with the Bible?

    The Mormon Church says Jesus is a god, one among many, and that we, too, can become gods, just like Jesus is.18 Why then does God say, “Before me there was no God formed, and neither shall there be after me.”? (Isaiah 43:10).19 Which would you rather believe – a man-made church or God Himself??

    Why did Brigham Young, the second Prophet of the Mormon Church say, “It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit….they must be atoned for by the blood of the man.”20

    How can a sinful man’s blood be more effective than the precious blood of Christ? Listen to this recent Mormon teaching contained in a widely distributed pamphlet:

    “Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation.

    For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean.”21

    Is it possible that when this pamphlet refers to the “many” who believe this, it is referring to the Apostle Paul when he said, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? Or when he said, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5). Certainly, the Mormon teaching concerning the blood of Jesus is not Christian.

    The Jesus of the Bible, the true, living Lord Christ, is like the Mormon Jesus in name only. Other than name, the Jesus of Mormonism is totally and completely different than the Christ who is worshipped by the Christian Church. As you can see, it was teaching like that of the Mormon Church that Paul warned the Corinthians about in 2 Corinthians 11:4 when he spoke about those who “preach another Jesus,” or when he warned the Galatians about those who would “preach another gospel.” (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Don’t be fooled! Some may try to tell you that these things are not pertinent to your salvation. Since salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ (John 14:6), isn’t it essential that we believe in the real Lord Jesus Christ? Can we be saved by a false Jesus?

    The true Jesus wants to give you the free gift of eternal life if you will only turn your life over to Him (John 5:24). Read the following verses, and meet the real Jesus of the Bible, and make Him Lord of your life! John 3:16-18, 5:23-24, 14:6, Romans 3:23-28, 4:4-5, 5:1, 10:9-13, 11:6, Acts 16:31.

    1) “What the Mormons Think of Christ.” 1982, pages 6-7, 22. (Hereafter referred to as WMTC). Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, page 281, Jesus the Christ by James Talmage, pages 8-9. Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 18. Doctrine and Covenants 93:21.

    2) Moses 4:1-4, Mormon Doctrine, pages 192, 281, 590. Gospel Through the Ages, by Milton Hunter, page 15.

    3) WMTC, page 6, Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, page 18, Mormon Doctrine, pages 546-547. Answers to Gospel Questions volume 5, by Joseph Fielding Smith, pages 126-127. Journal of Discourses volume 1, page 50 (1:50), 4:218, 11:268. The Seer, by Orson Pratt, pages 158-159.

    4) WMTC, page 20. Doctrine and Covenants 19:17-18, Jesus the Christ, pages 613-614.

    5) Mormon Doctrine, pages 92-93, Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, pages 134-135, Journal of Discourses volume 2, page 345.

    6) Journal of Discourses volume 2, page 345.

    7) John 1:1, John 8:58, Hebrews 13:8, Revelation 22:13, Micah 5:2.

    8) John 10:30, John 17:5.

    9) John 17:3, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:8.

    10) John1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3.

    11) Ezekiel 28:13-15, Isaiah 14:12-15.

    12) Matthew 1:18-20, Luke 1:35.

    13) Colossians 1:19-20, 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:18-19, 1 John 1:7.

    14) Matthew chapter 25, Revelation 20:12-15.

    15) Zechariah 12:1.

    16) Joseph Smith, “The King Follett Funeral Discourse,” quoted in Journal of Discourses volume 6, page 3, or Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by Joseph Fielding Smith, pages 345-346.

    17) Journal of Discourses volume 8, page 115. The Promised Messiah by Bruce R. McConkie, pages 467-468.

    18) Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pages 346-348, Articles of Faith by James Talmage, page 430.

    19) See also Isaiah 44:6-8, 24, 45:5-6, 14, 18, 21-22, 46:9.

    20) Journal of Discourses volume 4, page 54, from September 15, 1856.

    21) WMTC, pages 19-20.

    James White

  10. How deceptive things in this world can be!
    Matthew 7:22.

    Isn’t Mormonism part of the wide and broad way? (Matt 7:13)

  11. Amen! Very important and relevant show, Can you do a show dedicated to the “Jehovah’s witnesess” religion?

  12. Greetings all;

    One of the best ways to show that the Mormon tradition is not true is to bypass the theological debates and go to the archeological contradictions. One resource that does this well is a dvd called “The Bible versus the Book of Mormon”. When I have asked Mormons to explain the content of this DVD, I have yet to have any answer the challenge. By the way the format is very kind. Many people on the DVD are Mormons who choose their fields of study to defend the Mormon faith, but came away empty. It is a much simpler approach than wading into the technical theological controversies. If the archeological evidence contradicts their claims, then the historical foundations are not true and thus the whole religion collapses.

    The website is http://sourceflix.com/links/. You can even watch the DVD on line. There are several DVDs that exam Mormon claims from several different vantage points.

    For those interested there is also a DVD on the whole Jesus Tomb film that raised so much dust a few years ago. They showed how the editors of that film had distorted the real findings. It was very interesting and well worth watching if you were at all disturbed by the Jesus ossuary claim. It nicely demolishes the film.

  13. Living Hope Ministries’ nonsense has long been refuted. See Mesoamericanist, Brant Gardner’s Review, and ANE Scholar, David Bokovoy’s review, at the following links:



    I sent Joel Kramer a detailed response to many of the points in his recent “Joseph Smith vs. the Bible,” but he has not replied (and it has been about a month now). LHM is only interested in “boundary control,” not engaging with informed LDS.

    James White in his presentation mentioned the issue about the conception of Jesus. My question for James is this: is he aware of the historical context of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses he cites, as do the Tanners, Rhodes and Bodine, and others? The historical context of those sermons (which later talks on the issue were based on) were LDS responding to the RLDS mission to Utah–Joseph Smith III (president of the RLDS Church) sent David Hyrum Smith on a mission to convert the “Brighamites” and part of RLDS theology was that the Holy Spirit, not God the Father, was the father of Jesus Christ. Trying to read such statements as a systematic theology of LDS Christology (something never intended by the likes of Young et al.) is errorenous, especially when there are many explicit statements from Church leaders to the effect Mary *was* a virgin. See one by Harold B. Lee at http://www.fairlds.org/graphics/hbleeletter.jpg

    As for Isaiah 43:10, mentioned above, it is a contrast between Yahweh and Baal. In the Caanite religion, Baal battled Yam (deified sea) and won, becoming god of gods through usurption (El was the god of the cosmos). However, he was then slain by Mot (death) and was sent to Sheol. Yahweh is contrasting such deities who become god of gods through usurption with his being god of gods.

    “Before me”? “After me”? When is before God and when is after God? What about the time in between (which, in Orthodox [i.e., Traditional] Christianity is “always”)? Is one willing to assert a “before God” or an “after God”? Clearly, simply suggesting that it talks about being created before God is nothing more than suggesting that something was created before God was created (which is incompatible both with Orthodox Christian and Latter-day Saint theology). But “after God” implies an end to God–not that something was created after God was created. Such a view, of course, is not well thought out, though such eisegesis appears in White’s “Is the Mormon my Brother” and similar works.

    In verse 11, we get his statement: “apart from me, there is no saviour” (New International Version [NIV]). This is translated as “beside me there is no saviour” in the KJV, and “besides me there is no saviour” in the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). In fact, most translations, including the modern ones, follow the language of the NRSV and the KJV against the NIV. I bring this up as Ferguson uses the NIV, and used such in his atrocious article, and it is popular among Evangelicals outside the KJV-Only movement. The phrase, “besides me” in Isaiah 43-45 is a reference to Asherah–claimed by some as a consort for Yahweh, and claimed by others as a consort for Baal. Asherah was claimed by those who worshipped her as a Saviour–as a deliverer. This is explicitly stated in Jeremiah, when the remaining Jewish aristocracy was fleeing to Egypt following the assassination of Gedaliah. They dragged Jeremiah with them and complained to him in Jeremiah 44:17-19:

    *”We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At the time we had plenty of good and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouting out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”*

    The women then added:

    *”When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cake like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”*

    One should compare the above with 2 Kings 22-24, where the Asherah (KJV: “grove(s)”) is removed from the temple and the wooden poles depicting her which were on the outside of the First Temple were destroyed by Josiah during the Deuteronomic Reformation. Essentially, Isaiah is claiming that salvation comes from Yahweh alone–not from an Asherah or from Baal.

    But there are other interesting things in chapter 43. Yahweh, in verse 3, states that, “For I am Yahweh your elohim.” Then, in verse 12, Isaiah explicitly discusses the fact that he is comparing Yahweh to other divinities: “I have revealed and saved and proclaimed–I, and not some foreign gods among you.” It should be noted that nowhere does Isaiah ever claim that it is sinful for foreigners to worship other gods. This doesn’t appear in the text until the post-exilic portions of Jeremiah (Jeremiah was pieced together by a number of individuals, thus the unusual chronology in the text, among other things) while Deuteronomy 4 seems to suggest that the foreign gods were given to the foreign nations so that they would worship them (cf. Deuteronomy 32:7-9 [the Hebrew verb here is “to inherit,” nahal, which differentiates in this passage Yahweh from Elohim, the former who inherited/received, as a patrimony from the latter, Israel]). The notion here is clearly that Yahweh is superior to these foreign gods–independent of the question of whether or not they are real divinities.

    This brings us to Isaiah 44. The primary alleged monotheistic proof-text of Isaiah 44 is that of verses 6 and 8:

    *This is what the LORD says–Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and the last; apart from me there is no God . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock [this is the underlying Hebrew word used]; I know not one.*

    It should be noted that the NIV misses the chance of some consistency. In verse 6, the “apart from me” is the same as “besides me” of verse 8. This section of Isaiah is essentially a polemic against Asherah worship. I note that some time later, around 622 B.C.E., during Josiah’s reform, the Asherah is removed from the temple in Jerusalem. This is described in 2 Kings 23:

    *The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the LORD all the articles made for Baal and Asherah and all the starry hosts. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel. He did away with the pagan priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the LORD to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the LORD and where women did weaving for Asherah.*

    This description relates to what follows verse 8 in Isaiah 44. Here is some more of that chapter:

    *The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?*

    Did you notice the similarity to Psalm 82:5 here?–

    Psalm 82: They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness;

    Isaiah 44: They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

    In any case, we have in Isaiah 44 a description of how the carpenter takes the tree, and creates an image from it. The remainder of the tree is burned as ash (it was a public burning and scattering of the ashes in the Josian destruction of the Asherah in 622 B.C.E.). Here is a description of the people mistakenly worshipping a tree. And then later the specific imagery of the forests and the trees worshipping Yahweh. A polemic against Asherah worship – the castigation of the worship of the tree.

    These same issues apply to Isaiah 45. But that chapter starts off with a peculiarity. In the very first verse we read:

    *This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armour, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut*

    Here, Cyrus is called the anointed one of Yahweh – his salvific agent, his messiah. Go figure.

    The question, though, ultimately is whether or not Isaiah’s point of view is similar to that of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 does not deny the existence of other elohim (as noted by scholars such as Robert Alter; Frank Moore Cross jnr.; Margaret Barker; Mark S. Smith; Jeffrey Tigay, etc), nor does it claim that they are not divinities. It simply imputes to them impotence–they cannot save, they are incapable of granting salvation. If this is the case (which is seems to be), then Isaiah is not the great voice of monotheism as many errantly portray the text to be, but, instead, a voice of the supremacy of Yahweh as the only divinity who is capable of doing these things–and only for Israel.

    Finally, I see that James White raised Romans 4 and Romans 10. Romans 4 is about those trying to put God into a legal debt (notice Paul’s use of “wage”). Also, the meaning of λογιζομαι is not discussed (it predominately refers to a mental representation of the reality one is experiencing–see Ben Douglass and Robert Sungenis on this), as is Ps 32 and David (which, to be fair, White did deal with in The God Who Justifies, though he was way off, as modern Pauline scholarship shows, viz. “Judgment and Justification in Early Judaism and the Apostle Paul” by Christ VanLandginham [Hendrickson, 2006]). As for Romans 10, note that the text Paul is using is none other than Deut 30:6-16, which stresses _obedience_ not just Sola Fides.

    A lot more could be said, but I do hope that what I write adds food for thought. I have provided my email address below for any interested in furthering this discussion.

    As an aside, a very good (and lengthy) review of White’s popular though errant “Letters to a Mormon Elder” can be found at:

    Robert Boylan (irishLDS87atgmaildotcom)
    Tralee, Ireland.

  14. I wrote:


    Opps; In interest of time, I copied and pasted something I previously wrote (a review of an article by Irish Church Missions a few years ago), thus why the above is there. Mea Cupla . . .

  15. ^the above did nto come out as I thought it would have (apparently, text with double chevrons does nto come out).

    I wrote:

    I bring this up as Ferguson uses the NIV, and used such in his atrocious article, and it is popular among Evangelicals outside the KJV-Only movement.

    Opps; In interest of time, I copied and pasted something I previously wrote (a review of an article by Irish Church Missions a few years ago), thus why the above is there. Mea Cupla . . .

  16. Robert;

    Living Hope Ministries “nonsense” has been refuted. Really! Can you tell me where Zarahemla is? Can you explain why according to the Mormons horses were being used before they came to the Americas? Can you point to any artifacts found in the great battle that took place in upper state New York?

  17. Robert;

    I took some time to read the article by Brant Gardner. While I will say he may have correctly pointed out that at times the Living Hope DVD overstated some of its postitions, but overall his thesis seems to die the death of a thousand excuses. For example, although many including Gardner himself were taught that Cumorah was in New York, it is now believed to be in Mesoamerica. This rather forces the question, then why were so many taught that it was in New York? Why is there a reenactment at this location in New York of the events alleged to have occured there? It seems a rather convenient excuse to say we could not find evidence at the site where we claimed these events occured, so let’s just say it really happened in MesoAmerica! But of course we also don’t know where in MesoAmerica these events occurred. While at times Gardner gives excuses why no one has found archeological evidence that can be directly linked to Morman precursors, that is essentially the problem. While something like 25,000 archeological finds corroborate the Bible, how many can you point to that corroborate the Book of Mormon? That really seems to be the heart of the issue. Gardner points to vague geographical features as support for sites in the Book of Mormon, but such evidence is at best speculative. He gives excuses why no writings to support Mormon claims are found in the New World as opposed to the Old World. Let’s see now, the golden plates were lost, all the old writings were lost, so where exactly is the evidence for the Mormon claims? It seems to be an argument from speculation and from silence. The point still remains, that unlike the Bible, firm archeological evidence just isn’t there.

    It must also be noted that the lack of archeological evidence does not stand alone. I would love to hear your comments on the newest DVD Living Hope Ministries put out which looks at the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith.

    I would also like to hear your thoughts on the philosophical problem of God at one time being like a man and evolving to His current status. Then who made the man who evolved to become God? The answer must be some proto-God. But then who made the proto-God? The end result is that one becomes locked into an infinite regress, and an infinite regress is not possible. Classic Theism avoids this problem by having God as the uncaused first cause of everything else. But then this leads to having only one God–a concept which is supported by what God says about Himself in Isaiah (“I am the first and the last and apart from Me there is no God” –Isaiah 44:6, “Before Me there was no God formed, and there wil be non After Me.–Isaiah 43:10) and Numbers (…the Lord is God and besides Him there is no other”–Numbers 4:39).

    By the way, I want to be clear that I have spent a great deal of time in Utah and I find the Mormon people to be warm, engaging and have excellent family values. So none of this should be taken as a personal attack.

  18. My husband, father and mother -in-law, and their other sons, were in the Mormons until my husband was eight years old. My father and mother-in-law still can’t talk about all they went through and the wounds are still deep. They told me that Mormonism is all about being obedient to the organization not to God. There is tremendous guilt and psychological persecution when you are not obedient. My father-in-law had three of his friends commit suicide while in the Mormon organization. If only they had known the true and living God and the peace of Christ that surpasses all understanding.

    Mormons do in fact verbally attack Christian denominations and worship places. This is their latest tactic. Their goal is to make you doubt where you worship is true. They came to my door not to long ago. They tried to convince me that that because all these churches have different names then they can’t be true because it is divisive. Since it is divisive, these churches are false and not of God. What they completely miss is that we go to places of worship that have different names but are one body called The Church. What makes us united is the most important thing which is what we believe. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the Gospel according to Yeshua/Jesus as found in His word.

    I know this sounds harsh but even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. As for the excellent family values, being guilted into acting and being a certain way can take a person very far.

  19. It seems to me calvanists dont have a leg to stand on concerning mormonism. Anyone who can look you in the eye and tell you God only loves certian people is just as off base as any mormon and maybe even more so from my perspective.
    Think about it for a minute if God only loves certian people not others than a calvanist certianly NEVER has any right to tell ANYONE that God loves them because he can never really be sure of who God does or doesnt love.
    “Maybe God loves you” is the only honest thing they could preach.
    And think about this if God is LOVE and says “love your neighbor” and then tells you your neighbor is everyone including your enemy then how could God COMMAND you to love someone He doesnt love considering He is the source of that love…
    Mormons have some screwy theology but many of them have very good fruit so Id rather be on a stranded island with a Mormon than a “stiff necked” calvanist any day. Maybe James White should take a look in his own eye first and theres not a whole lot of TULIP theology in the verses below just LOVE mercy & compassion.

    MATTHEW 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.

  20. John 6:57 tells me that those that partake of Jesus will live by him. John 8:12 tells me that those that follow Jesus will have the light of life.

    Many years ago I began reading the Bible after many years of having nothing to do with it. I began praying, asking God to help
    me understand it and to connect me with other people my age who can help me.

    Shortly thereafter I was met by a Jehovah’s witness, then by two
    Mormons, then by two of another group which I did connect with.
    When I told that to them, some of them said, “I can’t believe we came in 3rd.”, but that was the group I stayed with for a while.

    The Mormons came to my door and they had a series of hand drawn sketches they wanted to show me.

    The first one was of a man and a woman. It was a bit sketchy and I didn’t know who they were. “Adam and Eve”, they said.

    The next was a drawing of a man somewhat older than the first two. “Abraham”.

    Then was another man and I was catching on by now. “Moses.”

    Then there was a picture of Jesus. Next, another picture, but I didn’t know who that was. “Joseph Smith” they said, and they wanted to tell me about him.

    I read a little of the book of Morman they gave me. I think they should have stayed with Jesus.

    I found it to be dry reading, not full of life as is the Bible. Later in life I found that I could open up the Bible and find something good on every page. I could thank God for what I saw and receive something that wasn’t dry and lifeless, but full of life.

    It seems to me that God has children in all kinds of churches, clubs, cliques, whatever. If we partake of Jesus, God said that we will dwell in him, (John 6:56) for Jesus dwells in God. (I John 4:16)

    If we will continue in Jesus we will find ourselves getting free of
    sins and systems of this world. (John 8:36) There were no bars of steel or walls of concrete that could keep Jesus from the will of God. I believe he wants us free. So we have a living hope. We have a bright future in him no matter where we are.

  21. caucazhin,

    Mormonism is not just “screwy theology”. It is an organization that worships the organization. Therefore they worship themselves. They do not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They take God and His word and completely change it around. I am not good at words but I will try to explain. Mormonism is very deceptive. If you are two minutes late, you are still late but it does not look bad. If you are half an hour late, you are still late but it looks bad. Mormonism is like the two minutes late and lets say Islam is the half an hour late. Mormons look so good because they smile all the time and seem to be perfect. In Islam people appear to be angry and not get along. So mormonism is so much more deceptive. They do not believe in Jesus as we do. It is not the same Jesus. All of God’s Word is important but they take key facts and turn them into blasphemies. This can only be the work of the devil.

  22. caucazhin,

    I do agree with you about the calvinists. I have a sister who is not saved. When I was newly born again, I met a calvinist and I went away crying. I could not believe that the reason my sister may never be saved was because God did not love her. How could I love her but not God?

  23. I can’t help but see a little irony in a disciple of Johnny (Calvin), witnessing to a disciple of Joey (Smith).

    In the words of Johnny…….

    “To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be PREDESTINATED to salvation, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION…….that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others……..by predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are PREORDAINED to eternal life, OTHERS TO ETERNAL DAMNATION; and, accordingly, as each has been CREATED for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been PREDESTINATED to life or TO DEATH.”

    Ironically, both Calvinism and Mormonism do have at least one thing in common….

    Neither saves.

  24. wingedfooted1 SAID:Ironically, both Calvinism and Mormonism do have at least one thing in common….Neither saves.

    AMEN wingedfooted1
    Its strange how people end up worshiping men instead of the TRUE LIVING GOD.
    Calvin basically had Servatus burned at the stake.
    Martin Luther became an antisemitic woman hater and Augustine wholeheartedly supported putting down the cross and picking up the sword to kill our enemies instead of love them..

    John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother,(( he is a liar )). For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

  25. Blessings, Caucazhin.

    Concerning Servetus, there are many Calvinists today who still insist Calvin is being misrepresented (how often do we hear that?). Just recently, I believe it was Steve Lawson who was quoted as saying “He didn’t do it”.

    Yet years after Servetus’ death, Calvin wrote a letter stating…..

    “Do not fail to rid the country of those zealous scoundrels who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”

    And yet the scriptures say…..

    1 John 3:15…..
    “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.”

    The similarities between Mormonism and Calvinism are ironic. Both just recently celebrated their leader’s birthday. Joseph Smith’s 200th on December 23, 2005. And John Calvin’s 500th on July 10, 2009. Regarding the church, one believes in a “restoration”, the other a “reformation”. One holds the Bible and the “Book of Mormon” as essential reading. The other regards the Bible and “The Institutes of the Christian Religion” as essential reading. Two reasons why Ligon Duncan suggested believers should read the “Institutes” were…..

    “Because it the most important book written in the last 500 years.”


    “Because you will know God better, if you read it prayerfully and believingly.”

    Is this not precisely what the Mormons say regarding the “Book of Mormon”? So we will all know God better, not by spending time with Him reading the Spirit-breathed scriptures, but by reading “The Institutes of the Christian Religion”?

    James White said to Debbie…

    “The true Jesus wants to give you the free gift of eternal life if you will only turn your life over to Him (John 5:24).”

    But according to Calvinism, Debbie can’t turn to Him unless God firsts regenerates her (which is completely unbiblical). Odds are, according to Calvinism, God hates her and Jesus didn’t even die for her.

    He who has ears, let him hear.

  26. A cursory, perfunctory examination is all that is needed – in my mind at least – to demonstrate that J.Smith et al are all pernicious liars, frauds, instruments of Satan; they are rainclouds that bring nothing but drought; the proverbial wolf in the sheep’s clothes – this is but too mild a description of them; just as mosquitoes suck people’s blood and spread viruses, so too do these base creatures seek to spread the filth of their doctrine after first sucking the life out of their victims. These men are in mortal danger of the hell fire. One would do well to stay well clear of their doctrines.

    Oh and the beauty of Mormonism: I feel great! I feel spiritual! I feel redeemed by Jesus! All praise to Joseph Smith who is equal to Moses and Jesus! Bah. What rubbish. Folks, wake up! There is nothing beautiful in a lie!


  27. wingedfooted1 yeah look at how many Puritans were calvinists and they burned people at the stake constantly

  28. Here are some samplings of scriptures on various topics—with some comparisons to Bible writings (sorry for the footnote letters that obscure the text–I just copied and pasted)—Tell me how these are unbiblical… They corroborate and support the Bible in every way! In fact, had God allowed archeologists to find the gold plates containing the Book of Mormon (instead of calling a prophet and restoring His church), it would have been the greatest archeological find in the history of the world and Christians the world over would have been ecstatic to have another witness, another validation and evidence of their beliefs…

    If this is not Christian, I don’t know what is:
    Moroni 7:20-39
    20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
    21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
    22 For behold, God aknowing all things, being from beverlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent cangels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
    23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
    24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were afallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
    25 Wherefore, by the ministering of aangels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.
    26 And after that he came men also were asaved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the bsons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: cWhatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.
    27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have amiracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to bclaim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?
    28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will acleave unto every good thing; wherefore he badvocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.
    29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have aangels ceased to minister unto the children of men.
    30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of agodliness.
    31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the achosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.
    32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the aresidue of men may have bfaith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
    33 And Christ hath said: aIf ye will have bfaith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is cexpedient in me.
    34 And he hath said: aRepent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.
    35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with apower and great glory at the last bday, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
    36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he awithheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
    37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of bunbelief, and all is vain.
    38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
    39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not afit to be numbered among the people of his church.

    Moroni 7:40-48
    40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning ahope. How is it that you can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?
    41 And what is it that ye shall ahope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have bhope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life ceternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.
    42 Wherefore, if a man have afaith he bmust needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.
    43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be ameek, and lowly of heart.
    44 If so, his afaith and hope is vain, for none is bacceptable before God, save the cmeek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and dconfesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.
    45 And acharity suffereth long, and is bkind, and cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily dprovoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
    46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—
    47 But acharity is the pure blove of Christ, and it endureth cforever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
    48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, apray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall cbe like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be dpurified even as he is pure. Amen.

    Moroni 10:30-33
    30 And again I would exhort you that ye would acome unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good bgift, and ctouch not the evil gift, nor the dunclean thing.
    31 And aawake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of bZion; and cstrengthen thy dstakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest eno more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
    32 Yea, acome unto Christ, and be bperfected in him, and cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be eperfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
    33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye asanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the bblood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your csins, that ye become dholy, without spot.

    1st John 3:1-3
    1 BEHOLD, what manner of alove the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the bsons of God: therefore the cworld knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the asons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall bappear, we shall be clike him; for we shall dsee him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this ahope in him bpurifieth himself, even as he is cpure.

    LDS Scriptures about Jesus Christ
    2 Nephi 31:2-21
    2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I amust speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.
    3 For my soul delighteth in aplainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the bunderstanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their clanguage, unto their understanding.
    4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that aprophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the bLamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.
    5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being aholy, should have need to be bbaptized by water, to fulfill all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be cbaptized, yea, even by water!
    6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
    7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be aobedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
    8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the aform of a bdove.
    9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the agate, by which they should enter, he having set the bexample before them.
    10 And he said unto the children of men: aFollow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we bfollow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
    11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
    12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father agive the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, bfollow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
    13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall afollow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no bhypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real cintent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are dwilling to take upon you the ename of Christ, by fbaptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the gbaptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the htongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
    14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should adeny me, it would have been bbetter for you that ye had not known me.
    15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the awords of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that bendureth to the cend, the same shall be saved.
    16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall aendure to the end, in following the bexample of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
    17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and abaptism by water; and then cometh a bremission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
    18 And then are ye in this astrait and narrow bpath which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which cwitnesses of the dFather and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
    19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow apath, I would ask if all is bdone? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken cfaith in him, drelying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to esave.
    20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a asteadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of bhope, and a clove of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and dendure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eeternal life.
    21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is bnone other way nor cname given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the eFather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is fone God, without end. Amen.

    2 Nephi 25: 23-25
    23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo.
    24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we akeep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
    25 For, for this end was the alaw given; wherefore the law hath become bdead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
    26 And we atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our cchildren may know to what source they may look for a dremission of their sins.
    27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.
    28 And now behold, my people, ye are a astiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a btestimony against you; for they are sufficient to cteach any man the dright way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.
    29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and aworship him with all your bmight, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.
    30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the aperformances and bordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

    Mosiah 3:5-13
    5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the aLord bOmnipotent who creigneth, who was, and is from all deternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a etabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty fmiracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the gblind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
    6 And he shall cast out adevils, or the bevil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
    7 And lo, he shall asuffer btemptations, and pain of body, chunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can dsuffer, except it be unto death; for behold, eblood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his fanguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
    8 And he shall be called aJesus bChrist, the cSon of God, the dFather of heaven and earth, the eCreator of all things from the beginning; and his fmother shall be called Mary.
    9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that asalvation might come unto the children of men even through bfaith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a cdevil, and shall dscourge him, and shall ecrucify him.
    10 And he shall arise the bthird day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to cjudge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.
    11 For behold, and also his ablood batoneth for the sins of those who have cfallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the dwill of God concerning them, or who have eignorantly sinned.
    12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he arebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the bLord Jesus Christ.
    13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy aprophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive bremission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even cas though he had already come among them.

    Alma 7:7-16
    7 For behold, I say unto you there be many things to come; and behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all—for behold, the atime is not far distant that the Redeemer liveth and cometh among his people.
    8 Behold, I do not say that he will come among us at the atime of his dwelling in his mortal tabernacle; for behold, the Spirit hath not said unto me that this should be the case. Now as to this thing I do not know; but this much I do know, that the Lord God hath power to do all things which are according to his word.
    9 But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying—aRepent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God bcometh upon the face of the earth.
    10 And behold, he shall be aborn of Mary, at bJerusalem which is the cland of our forefathers, she being a dvirgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and econceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
    11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and aafflictions and btemptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will ctake upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
    12 And he will take upon him adeath, that he may bloose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to csuccor his people according to their infirmities.
    13 Now the Spirit aknoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the bflesh that he might ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
    14 Now I say unto you that ye must arepent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.
    15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth abeset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism.
    16 And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will aremember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me.

    Judging Good and Evil
    1st John 3:6-11
    6 Whosoever abideth in him asinneth not: bwhosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither cknown him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that acommitteth bsin is of the devil; for the devil csinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the ddevil.
    9 Whosoever is aborn of God bdoth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are amanifest, and the bchildren of the devil: whosoever doeth not crighteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    11 For this is the amessage that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
    See Moroni 7:5-19

    Mathew 7:14-23
    13 ¶ Enter ye in at the astrait bgate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to cdestruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because astrait is the bgate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto clife, and few there be that find it.
    15 ¶ Beware of afalse prophets, which come to you in bsheep’s clothing, but cinwardly they are ravening dwolves.
    16 Ye shall aknow them by their bfruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth agood bfruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good afruit is bhewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their afruits ye shall know them.
    21 ¶ Not every one that asaith unto me, bLord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that cdoeth the dwill of my Father which is in heaven.e
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not aprophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never aknew you: bdepart from me, ye that work ciniquity.

    Moroni 7:5-19
    5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their aworks ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
    6 For behold, God hath said a man being aevil cannot do that which is good; for if he boffereth a gift, or cprayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real dintent it profiteth him nothing.
    7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
    8 For behold, if a man being aevil giveth a gift, he doeth it bgrudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
    9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with areal intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
    10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
    11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.
    12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.
    13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.
    14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
    15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
    16 For behold, the aSpirit of Christ is given to every bman, that he may cknow good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
    17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do aevil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
    18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the alight by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same bjudgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
    19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a bchild of Christ.

    Modern Revelation and new scripture
    2 Nephi 29:3-11
    3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A aBible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
    4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a aBible; and it shall proceed forth from the bJews, mine ancient covenant people. And what cthank they the dJews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
    5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have acursed them, and have bhated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
    6 Thou fool, that shall say: A aBible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
    7 Know ye not that there are more anations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the bisles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the cearth beneath; and I bring forth my dword unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the atestimony of btwo nations is a cwitness unto you that I am God, that I remember one dnation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two enations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
    9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the asame yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my bwords according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one cword ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my dwork is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
    10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my awords; neither bneed ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
    11 For I command aall men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall bwrite the words which I speak unto them; for out of the cbooks which shall be written I will djudge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

    Views on Exaltation (to become like God, heirs with Christ, etc.) I also liked CS Lewis’s portrayal of the rewards for the 4 children in Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe where they all received various crowns in the kingdom…
    Romans 8:14-18,29-30
    Ephesians 4:11-13
    Galatians 4:4-7
    Mathew 5:48
    Psalms 82:6
    John 10:34
    Acts 17:29
    Revelations 3:21
    Doctrine & Covenants 84:6-39 (35-38)
    See LDS Topical Guide: Exaltation for others

    Disputes and contention
    Romans 14
    3 Nephi 11:29
    29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of acontention is not of me, but is of the bdevil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

    I appreciate the way Dr. White approached the subject with respect and sensitivity, concern and love instead of the many rude, cruel, inaccurate, uninformed ways people usually use to attack mormons. Even if the Christian world rejects me, I still accept them as fellow Christians.

  29. Here are some addresses given at the LDS semi-annual general conferences about our christianity

    Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
    Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
    “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent,” Ensign, Nov 2007, 40–42
    …various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”
    By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.
    Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.
    Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3
    So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.
    In the year a.d. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.
    We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6
    It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7
    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.
    With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13
    To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16
    A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.
    Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.
    My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.
    I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

    Jeffrey R. Holland, “‘My Words … Never Cease’,” Ensign, May 2008, 91–94
    In general conference last October, I said there were two principal reasons The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is accused, erroneously, of not being Christian. At that time I addressed one of those doctrinal issues—our scripturally based view of the Godhead. Today I would like to address the other major doctrine which characterizes our faith but which causes concern to some, namely the bold assertion that God continues to speak His word and reveal His truth, revelations which mandate an open canon of scripture.
    Some Christians, in large measure because of their genuine love for the Bible, have declared that there can be no more authorized scripture beyond the Bible. In thus pronouncing the canon of revelation closed, our friends in some other faiths shut the door on divine expression that we in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold dear: the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the ongoing guidance received by God’s anointed prophets and apostles. Imputing no ill will to those who take such a position, nevertheless we respectfully but resolutely reject such an unscriptural characterization of true Christianity.
    One of the arguments often used in any defense of a closed canon is the New Testament passage recorded in Revelation 22:18: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of … this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.” However, there is now overwhelming consensus among virtually all biblical scholars that this verse applies only to the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible. Those scholars of our day acknowledge a number of New Testament “books” that were almost certainly written after John’s revelation on the Isle of Patmos was received. Included in this category are at least the books of Jude, the three Epistles of John, and probably the entire Gospel of John itself.1 Perhaps there are even more than these.
    But there is a simpler answer as to why that passage in the final book of the current New Testament cannot apply to the whole Bible. That is because the whole Bible as we know it—one collection of texts bound in a single volume—did not exist when that verse was written. For centuries after John produced his writing, the individual books of the New Testament were in circulation singly or perhaps in combinations with a few other texts but almost never as a complete collection. Of the entire corpus of 5,366 known Greek New Testament manuscripts, only 35 contain the whole New Testament as we now know it, and 34 of those were compiled after a.d. 1000.2
    The fact of the matter is that virtually every prophet of the Old and New Testament has added scripture to that received by his predecessors. If the Old Testament words of Moses were sufficient, as some could have mistakenly thought them to be,3 then why, for example, the subsequent prophecies of Isaiah or of Jeremiah, who follows him? To say nothing of Ezekiel and Daniel, of Joel, Amos, and all the rest. If one revelation to one prophet in one moment of time is sufficient for all time, what justifies these many others? What justifies them was made clear by Jehovah Himself when He said to Moses, “My works are without end, and … my words … never cease.”4
    One Protestant scholar has inquired tellingly into the erroneous doctrine of a closed canon. He writes: “On what biblical or historical grounds has the inspiration of God been limited to the written documents that the church now calls its Bible? … If the Spirit inspired only the written documents of the first century, does that mean that the same Spirit does not speak today in the church about matters that are of significant concern?”5 We humbly ask those same questions.
    Continuing revelation does not demean or discredit existing revelation. The Old Testament does not lose its value in our eyes when we are introduced to the New Testament, and the New Testament is only enhanced when we read the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. In considering the additional scripture accepted by Latter-day Saints, we might ask: Were those early Christians who for decades had access only to the primitive Gospel of Mark (generally considered the first of the New Testament Gospels to be written)—were they offended to receive the more detailed accounts set forth later by Matthew and Luke, to say nothing of the unprecedented passages and revelatory emphasis offered later yet by John? Surely they must have rejoiced that ever more convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ kept coming. And so do we rejoice.
    Please do not misunderstand. We love and revere the Bible, as Elder M. Russell Ballard taught so clearly from this pulpit just one year ago.6 The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our “standard works.” Indeed, it was a divinely ordained encounter with the fifth verse of the first chapter of the book of James that led Joseph Smith to his vision of the Father and the Son, which gave birth to the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in our time. But even then, Joseph knew the Bible alone could not be the answer to all the religious questions he and others like him had. As he said in his own words, the ministers of his community were contending—sometimes angrily—over their doctrines. “Priest [was] contending against priest, and convert [was contending] against convert … in a strife of words and a contest about opinions,” he said. About the only thing these contending religions had in common was, ironically, a belief in the Bible, but, as Joseph wrote, “the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question [regarding which church was true] by an appeal to the Bible.”7 Clearly the Bible, so frequently described at that time as “common ground,” was nothing of the kind—unfortunately it was a battleground.
    Thus one of the great purposes of continuing revelation through living prophets is to declare to the world through additional witnesses that the Bible is true. “This is written,” an ancient prophet said, speaking of the Book of Mormon, “for the intent that ye may believe that,” speaking of the Bible.8 In one of the earliest revelations received by Joseph Smith, the Lord said, “Behold, I do not bring [the Book of Mormon forth] to destroy [the Bible] but to build it up.”9
    One other point needs to be made. Since it is clear that there were Christians long before there was a New Testament or even an accumulation of the sayings of Jesus, it cannot therefore be maintained that the Bible is what makes one a Christian. In the words of esteemed New Testament scholar N. T. Wright, “The risen Jesus, at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, does not say, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to the books you are all going to write,’ but [rather] ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.’ ”10 In other words, “Scripture itself points … away from itself and to the fact that final and true authority belongs to God himself.”11 So the scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge for Latter-day Saints. They are manifestations of the ultimate source. The ultimate source of knowledge and authority for a Latter-day Saint is the living God. The communication of those gifts comes from God as living, vibrant, divine revelation.12
    This doctrine lies at the very heart of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of our message to the world. It dramatizes the significance of a solemn assembly yesterday, in which we sustained Thomas S. Monson as a prophet, a seer, and a revelator. We believe in a God who is engaged in our lives, who is not silent, not absent, nor, as Elijah said of the god of the priests of Baal, is He “[on] a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be [awakened].”13 In this Church, even our young Primary children recite, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”14
    In declaring new scripture and continuing revelation, we pray we will never be arrogant or insensitive. But after a sacred vision in a now sacred grove answered in the affirmative the question “Does God exist?” what Joseph Smith and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints force us to face is the next interrogative, which necessarily follows: “Does He speak?” We bring the good news that He does and that He has. With a love and affection born of our Christianity, we invite all to inquire into the wonder of what God has said since biblical times and is saying even now.
    In a sense Joseph Smith and his prophetic successors in this Church answer the challenge Ralph Waldo Emerson put to the students of the Harvard Divinity School 170 years ago this coming summer. To that group of the Protestant best and brightest, the great sage of Concord pled that they teach “that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.”15
    I testify that the heavens are open. I testify that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is truly another testament of Jesus Christ. I testify that Thomas S. Monson is God’s prophet, a modern apostle with the keys of the kingdom in his hands, a man upon whom I personally have seen the mantle fall. I testify that the presence of such authorized, prophetic voices and ongoing canonized revelations have been at the heart of the Christian message whenever the authorized ministry of Christ has been on the earth. I testify that such a ministry is on the earth again, and it is found in this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
    In our heartfelt devotion to Jesus of Nazareth as the very Son of God, the Savior of the world, we invite all to examine what we have received of Him, to join with us, drinking deeply at the “well of water springing up into everlasting life,”16 these constantly flowing reminders that God lives, that He loves us, and that He speaks. I express the deepest personal thanks that His works never end and His “words … never cease.” I bear witness of such divine loving attention and the recording of it, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

  30. If a man believes in God…

    If a person believes in God, it follows that he should know or find out the answers to at least the following questions (and live in accordance with them).

    -What relationship is there between me and God? Who is He? Who am I?
    -Does God Love me?
    -Does he speak? To me?
    -Does he have a plan for me?
    -Was there anything before this life? Did I exist before my birth?
    -Where am I from—really?
    -Why am I really here on this earth, in this life? What is the meaning of life?
    -Will there be anything after this life? Where am I going?
    -If there is, then what? Do I need to prepare for it, and how?
    -Will there be a Resurrection? What does this mean?
    -What about Heaven and Hell? Christ said in his father’s kingdom there are many mansions, what does this mean?
    -God speaks of Salvation… What is it, and why do I need to be saved? What does it mean to be saved?
    -Why did Adam fall? Was this part of God’s plan or did Satan mess things up?
    -How can I obtain this Salvation?
    -Who is Jesus Christ? What did he do and why?
    -If Christ died for me and atoned my sins, will there still be a judgement at the end of this life–and why?
    -Are the things I do in this life important? Do they have eternal consequences?
    -Why does God give commandments?
    -What do they do for me? Obviously they should be for my benefit… How?
    -Why has God called prophets and apostles? Does he call them now?
    -Why did he have them write the scriptures?
    -What are the scriptures about? What do the prophets say?
    -If God is unchanging… does he call prophets and do they write scripture today?
    -Why is a church needed? Where did it come from? Who started it?
    -Are all churches right? Or is there just one true church?
    -Does it matter?
    -If they are all right, then why do they all have such different teachings and beliefs when there is only one Bible and one God?
    -To perform God’s work—to speak or act in His name, does one need authority and permission from God?
    -If anyone can, then wouldn’t there be mass confusion and different teachings—maybe false teachings?
    -Is not God a God of order?
    -What do I need to do to be happy in this life and after?
    -What must I do to fulfill God’s plan and Will concerning me? Is there one?
    -How can I or anyone know any of this?
    -How can I approach God for help, knowledge or wisdom?
    -What happens to people who lived their lives without knowing—or who ignored these things?
    -What will happen to me if I learn these things and don’t do them?
    -If I make mistakes, can they be fixed and how?

    I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God’s Church on the Earth today and that we have, through ancient and modern revelation and scriptures, answers to all of these questions. Here is found the Authority and Priesthood of God to perform His ordinances and act in His holy name. Here, the Church has the same organization as did the original Church under Christ’s direction–namely Apostles, Prophets, etc., We have a living Prophet today who holds the keys of the Kingdom as did Peter of old; and, who under the direction of God, leads and guides the Church. We testify that God lives, that He loves us, and that He speaks to us today as He ever has and ever will. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is found the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ–His teachings and His ordinances for the salvation of all mankind.

    You Tube Links:
    God’s Words Never Cease
    Are We Christian?
    Why Mormons Build Temples
    Truths about Mormons

  31. Ryan,

    Thanks for all the posts, but how do you deal with the terribly heretical things that Mormonism teaches — that were documented on the broadcast and in this blog? Truth + error = error!

    Sadly, you are preaching some serious deception here, first claiming that Mormonism is in harmony with standard Christian teaching but then claiming that Mormonism has the real truth. Which is it?

    So, some simple questions here for you:

    1) Do you repudiate all the heretical teachings of Mormonism and only hold to those doctrines found in the Bible itself?

    2) You claim that the Mormon church is “God’s Church on the earth today.” What about all of us who claim to be born-again followers of Jesus who say that Mormonism is in error and is not the true Church. Are we part of “God’s Church on the earth today” or not?

    Please be as clear and concise in your answers as possible. Because there are hundreds of posts here, the really long ones tend to be neglected, so the shorter and clearer you can be, the better.


  32. Here are some of my thoughts on James White’s main points against Mormonism as written above to Debbie:

    “I find 1) Joseph Smith fails the tests of a prophet, for he not only proclaimed a god beside Jehovah” (Completely false–unless you claim that Either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost is an additional god beside THE ONE God and not as one unified God but is polytheism)

    “but he gave forth false prophecies (D&C 114 as a good example)” (Not a prophesy, but instructions)

    “2) the Book of Mormon is not a historical document” (Your opinion–read it and see what you think. Also it is hard to find physical evidence of the Book of Mormon lands and peoples, when as you so rightly point out, we really do not know where these events take place–only speculation… How can you expect us to find anything when we don’t know where to look and don’t know what we are looking for–maybe archeologists have found some and don’t know that they have… Would you know a Nephite artifact if you saw one–I know I wouldn’t…)

    “and it proclaims false teachings (2 Nephi 25:23, Moroni 10:32, etc.)” (These verses are completely accurate and supported by multiple New Testament Scriptures. We believe that we are saved by grace and only by grace–after or in spite of all we do, but that our faith is shown by/through our works–even you believe that we must exercise faith in Christ before we are saved by him)

    “3) the Doctrine and Covenants contains numerous false prophecies and tremendous contradictions to the inspired Scriptures (D&C 84, 130:22, 132 etc.)” (I have yet to see a false prophecy… Some have not yet come to pass, many have, and other information you probably tried to pass off as prophecy was really instructions, commandments and council not followed. As for false teachings, it does not in anyway contradict the teachings of the bible, but adds additional revelations and teachings from God. Who are you to limit what God says? The issue would have to be if Joseph Smith was a prophet before you could talk about what was revealed to him–or are you the authority dictating to God what he can or cannot say. For that matter, why do you put the authority of the Bible over God’s authority?)

    “4) the Pearl of Great Price contains amazing examples of Joseph Smith not being a prophet” (I would say rather of him BEING a prophet–writing revelations and inspired translations, etc.)

    “the most glaring being the entirety of the Book of Abraham, which not only presents a gross polytheism” (Please Define polytheism) “(using “the gods” more than 45 times)” (also substantiated in the old testament Genesis: “let us make man in our image…”)

    “but which has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a fraudulent “translation by the gift and power of God” of an Egyptian funerary document called the Book of Breathings (see Charles Larson’s tremendous book, _By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus_)” (Utter nonsense produced by radical anti-mormonists)

    “5) Joseph Smith’s entire foundational story, known as “the First Vision,” is utterly fallacious” (Your opinion)

    “a story that developed over time” (merely told different times focusing on different details–but none of the accounts contradict each other)

    “but which is contradicted by numerous facts of history, not the least of which is the fact that there was no revival in Palmyra in 1820–the exact revival Smith notes, even mentioning men who participated in it (such as Rev. Lane) who were not even *in* Palmyra at the time (the revival took place in 1824).” (completely unsubstantiated claims. All sources that I have seen or researched do not support any of this.)

  33. Ryan,

    Thanks for your latest post, but would you be kind enough to answer the two short and very specific questions I asked you in my recent post?

    For your convenience, I post them here again. I’m praying that you’ll have the courage to follow God’s truth and I deeply hope that you will truly come to know Him.

    1) Do you repudiate all the heretical teachings of Mormonism and only hold to those doctrines found in the Bible itself?

    2) You claim that the Mormon church is “God’s Church on the earth today.” What about all of us who claim to be born-again followers of Jesus who say that Mormonism is in error and is not the true Church. Are we part of “God’s Church on the earth today” or not?

    Please be as clear and concise in your answers as possible. Because there are hundreds of posts here, the really long ones tend to be neglected, so the shorter and clearer you can be, the better.

  34. 1) Do you repudiate all the heretical teachings of Mormonism and only hold to those doctrines found in the Bible itself?
    I feel that every one of the main points mentioned on the broadcast against Mormons are misconstrued to sound awful and repugnant, but that if explained properly can be seen to be completely in harmony with the doctrines of the Bible. Atheist make the same sort of attacks against all Christians.
    2) You claim that the Mormon church is “God’s Church on the earth today.” What about all of us who claim to be born-again followers of Jesus who say that Mormonism is in error and is not the true Church. Are we part of “God’s Church on the earth today” or not?
    Bluntly–no. But that is not to say that every sincere christian who studies the bible and believes in Christ and tries to live accordingly is going to hell. On the contrary–God is not only perfectly just but also perfectly merciful and every person on the planet that ever has been or ever will be will have an equal chance to fully learn and understand the Gospel of Christ and become a member of His church either in this life or the next. Those who knowingly reject it and fight against it are the ones who need to worry–Thank God, I’m not the one to judge. This does not however remove the obligation to seek for truth and for every good thing and to find and join the True Church of Christ–And I can’t see that all the various christian denominations and churches can all be the Church of Christ because they vary so differently on doctrines, ordinances, authority, etc.

  35. Dr. Brown,
    First, I want to let you know that I appreciate being able to listen to the Christian radio broadcast. I like to be able to listen to studies of the bible, inspirational thoughts, etc. I’m glad to see so many good people standing for what’s right in this country.
    Also, I appreciate your concern for my soul and your prayers on my behalf. While I do believe in Christ and pray and study often, I rely daily on the grace of God and the atonement of Christ for I am not perfect and need as much help from him and prayers from others as I can get.
    I also pray for you that you can someday come to understand the importance of what we believe–in addition to what you already believe. That you would sincerely and with an open heart and mind investigate the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints restored by Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, and pray to know if it really is true, and if the Book of Mormon is not also the word of God.

  36. As Joseph Smith once said (I don’t have the exact quote–so in my own words) The difference between you and us is that while you go around condemning everyone to Hell (at least Mormons), We believe that even you can be saved.

    God Bless

  37. Ryan,

    Thanks for the candid, forthright, and gracious comments. Without a doubt, God’s Word, expressed in the Scriptures, is a full and complete revelation, and through the Word — not some other books — we come to know the real Jesus in His glory and grace and power. The Book of Mormon and the Mormon religion can add nothing to the glorious truths of the Word and the extraordinary fellowship I enjoy in Jesus — except error and deception. Please keep listening to the broadcasts, and don’t be afraid to explore the real gospel that we preach.

  38. So God has nothing further to say to us? He is not the same today as he was yesterday?

    I agree with your statement about “the Word” including “his word” in the Book of Mormon and all other divinely revealed scriptures. I don’t see why you feel the need to limit God.

    Nevertheless, I will respect your beliefs and leave it at this.

    I would still like to see Dr. White’s reply to http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=11&num=1&id=310 although, I’m sure it would take much time and a large book and would not be possible to post here.

    P.S. the reason for posting large sections of the Book of Mormon and other scripture is 1) I couldn’t decide on what to leave out to make them shorter, but also 2) because I want people to at least glance at it and judge for themselves.

  39. Ryan, the full and final authoritative revelation is in the Scriptures — they are quite plain on that subject — and Jesus warned that false prophets like Joseph Smith would come along. We have more than enough reasons to reject Smith’s errors.

    The Holy Spirit continues to speak — I witness true prophetic words and genuine apostolic ministry all the time, including healings and miracles taking place in Jesus’ name — but all this must be tested by the Word and does not take the place of the Word.

    You utterly disqualify yourself the moment you claim that we need anything beyond the Word of God and anyone beyond the Jesus of the Bible.

    I probably won’t be weighing in much more here (I can’t get involved in every thread), so don’t take non-responses by me as a lack of interest in your soul. When I broadcast each day, I will remember that I am speaking to you as well!

  40. jesus did warn of false prophets… let’s look at the verses that talk about it:

    Mat 5:15-20
    15 Beware of afalse prophets, which come to you in bsheep’s clothing, but cinwardly they are ravening dwolves.
    16 Ye shall aknow them by their bfruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth agood bfruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good afruit is bhewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their afruits ye shall know them.

    So it is clear, that we should look at the fruits and judge them by wether the fruits are good–so if you want to know wether Joseph Smith was a false prophet–we must look at his fruit to see if it is good–if it builds and promotes faith in Christ, if it can be supported by biblical teachings…

    I believe and testify that they are good for they testify of Chirst and invite and entice to do good, and to love God, and to serve him.

    Concerning the Book of Mormon, I feel that no wicked man could have written it, and no righteous man would have–unless it were true and God commanded him to do it.

    Also, one last comment on the rather alarming accusations against mormons…

    We are not polytheistic, we do not worship other gods, or any gods save the only true and living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Eternal Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost–being one God. The comments about us becoming gods is merely another way of saying what is taught in the New Testament: Romans 8:14-18,29-30
    Ephesians 4:11-13 Galatians 4:4-7 Mathew 5:48 Psalms 82:6 John 10:34 Acts 17:29 Revelations 3:21 where God talks about the faithful saints becoming sons of God, joint heirs with Christ, etc.

    As to us worshiping a nonbiblical Jesus–that is utter nonsense, I have read, listened to and studied the things mentioned and cannot understand what Dr. White means…

    That we dissagree with the uninspired comprimise arrived at by all the wisdom of men at the councils of the Catholic church, which dictate the creed by which all christians must measure their views on God and the Trinity. We believe in the teachings of the Bible about God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

  41. Ryan,

    You can continue to argue your position but would like to highlight Dr. Browns word to you:

    “the full and final authoritative revelation is in the Scriptures… You utterly disqualify yourself the moment you claim that we need anything beyond the Word of God and anyone beyond the Jesus of the Bible.”

  42. I would suggest rather: The full and final authoritative revelation is only with God. He alone knows all things. What he has revealed to us is what he has said so far. We agree that the word of God in the Scriptures are authoritative, but surely if God wants to, he can have more to say than that. The Jews thought that they had it all with the Old Testament, but aren’t we glad that God kept revealing more and more of his truth gradually through letters and discourses in the New Testament, even line upon line and truth upon truth…

    For the most part I agree with what Dr. Brown said, but believe rather, that we do not turn to or claim that we need anything other than the word of God found in ‘Scriptures’ or anyone other than the Jesus taught in the Bible.

    The message that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints preaches is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church, with his proper priesthood authority and ordinances are restored to the Earth (as apposed to reformed/broken away from/etc.) in preparation for his return We believe in an open scriptural cannon rather than a closed one, for we rejoice that God keeps on speaking–that revelation does not cease.

  43. Dear Ryan,

    When it comes to the book of Mormon contradicting the Bible, which is right or has the greater authority?

    For example;

    2 Nephi 25:23
    “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”


    Ephesians 2:8-9
    “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

  44. Ryan;

    I have been reading your posts. First, let me again say that I have great respect for the Mormon people. I admire your family structure, your values and the fact that your belief is so sincere that everyone in the church does missionary work (a zeal that is sadly lacking in most main stream Christianity). I have spent a many months in Utah and very much like the people.

    That being said, I think the case presented in your post on “LDS semi-annual general conferences” on the Nicene creed is flawed. There was overwhelming support for the creed. The necessity for an official stance came about as the likes of Arius came forth, denying the Trinity in the sense of three persons in one being, which was held prior to the council (See the book The Trinity Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey where this is examined in detail). The formulation of the Trinity is a logical construct that follows directly from Scripture. It was not some crazy idea that was concocted out of thin air.

    Now I ask the same question I asked Robert in a previous post. My understanding of the Mormon doctrine it that God the Father was not always God as such but evolved to become God. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case then we must ask who made God before He became God. And then who made the proto-God that preceded God and on and on which leads to an infinite regress. And it can be shown that while an infinite regress is possible as a mathematical construct it is not possible actually. It is much like Zeno’s paradox against the reality of movement (If you walk half way to a wall over and over again, you will never get there–but in fact we do get there; abstract constructs do not necessarily apply to reality). So how do you as a Mormon overcome this philosophical Dilemma?

    You say that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and take objection to James White’s position. I would like to hear your critique of the DVD “The Bible vs Joseph Smith” where a fundamentalist Mormon goes to Israel and is challenged on the various prophesies of Joseph Smith. See the intro clip at http://sourceflix.com/the-bible-vs-joseph-smith-official-release/.

  45. Ryan,

    It sounds like you admit the Bible alone is not:

    “The full and final authoritative revelation.”

    I have a question for you. Do you admit or deny the contradictions on the book of Mormon when comparing it to the Bible?

Comments are closed.