1. Thank you Erika for letting me know I’m free to listen and that you don’t have a problem with it. I’m glad that’s ok with you.

    You say the NT writings were originally spoken in Hebrew? Do you have any proof of this? It seems to me that the NT was quoting a Greek Septuagint in most instances, no? Why would a Greek document quote a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew source text if they were speaking Hebrew?

    First century Roman occupied cities spoke Greek. Not Hebrew. Get your facts straight. As for Luke 14:26, I think you’re jumping ahead in parable by a few verses… The Greek word used is “Miseo” and is quite clear on intent. How about we cross reference this with Matthew 10:34-37? Is that too about building a tower and the cost?

    My advice to you Erika: Abandon this silly book and it’s fairy tales, folklore and wicked statements about your family.

    Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    Mat 10:36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
    Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

  2. Erika, just so I’m clear on your “counting costs” explanation: What does the meaning of Luke 14:26 have to do with it? If you could extrapolate a bit for us, that would be appreciated. Please, what did Jesus mean when he said, “you must hate your mother and father”.

    Also, if we are talking about words that were originally spoken in Hebrew and we don’t have those words today as you say, (neither Greek nor English), then how in the heck do we know what anyone’s intent was in any portion of the text? We’re shooting from the hip according to you.

  3. Chuck, in answer to your questions, I have never seen the term
    “God the Son” in my KJV Bible, but don’t know how to read Hebrew scriptures. I don’t know what they say.

    I believe all the good and perfect gifts of God do indeed come down from heaven and they fall upon those who do receive his
    loving kindness. Upon them they land and they are blessed. If they abide in what they have received of God they will have a
    reward. I believe what God has given will produce a bountiful blessing and a sure reward, if they will not loose what they have received of him.

  4. Andrew, the only way I know to find out if what we are reading
    (the Bible) is 100% accurate is to do what it says. Without doing what it says we can never know for sure. We have to experience the truth in order to know it. I’ve heard it said that truth has a name. We can experience him as we experience the truth.

    I don’t believe in scripture, that God is always a person. I think of him as a being more than a person. Maybe I should think of him as a Spirit, more than a being.

    When we become born of the spirit of God we begin to have a dislike for the things of this world. We begin to despise the things of the flesh which we have left behind. Therefore we dislike
    some of those who have been close to us in our past, even some of our own family members.

    When we go on with Christ having left some old things behind, we will be despised by others who are still willing to live in those things which we have left. Though we may love them and should love them, we loathe their condition, something we didn’t always do when we once were a part of those things ourselves.

    Didn’t God say of himself “I AM WHAT I AM”?

    I’ve read that God said “I AM THAT I AM.” in my KJV. I also read that the apostle Paul said about himself that “by the grace of God I am that I am.” and that was in the 1599 Geneva Bible, so
    I concluded that “I AM THAT I AM” is basicly the same as “I AM WHAT I AM”.

    It seems to me that what God said could be represented either way. One might choose one way and another the other representation. I don’t think it to be my calling to impose one or the other upon people, but should let them decide which they prefer.

    So it seems to me that in the scripture God isn’t always a person, for he says of himself that he is what he is. God is alot of things, such as love, spirit, and God is true. I suppose being true is a condition and truth is a thing, a quality, or a state of being.

    Truth is that which is true. Love is that which is truly love. There is nothing impure in God. God is complete in himself and needs nothing from us to complete him. Rather, we need him to be complete. We can not be complete apart from him. If we connected to him we are also connected with Jesus.

    It seems to me that it is entirely possilble to be connected to any other man and not be connected to Jesus, but if we are connected to Jesus, we are connected to many, many others also.

    What we experience through obedience to the will of God, we can find to be accurate, having proven it ourselves to be true.
    This builds our faith in God, for we have found a substance of the kingdom, having made a connection to it.

    We must begin our journey without a full 100% knowledge of the things of God. It begins with a decision which is based upon faith
    which sees things that may seem to be not, though they are.

    If we wait until we have 100% knowledge of all things we will miss our journey and our future which will bring us to the glory of God. We can not afford to wait to walk out by faith. God has given us his sacrifice to cover us, a covering of Christ which we do need for our journey, for we know not all that we do. Yet, we move on. We search for a city which we know not everything about, but we know that Jesus is there and we will desire to be with him if for no other reason but that we know that the things we have left will be destroyed and that our existence in this body
    that we now live in is temporary.

  5. Ray, ok, let’s take your side of it. Are you doing what it says? Are you casting out demons, raising the dead, healing the sick? Are you hating your parents and making sure Jesus is turning father against son, and mother against daughter? Is your faith strong enough to move mountains? Are you truly born again possessing the holy spirit? If so, wouldn’t you be able to do all those miracles as Jesus taught?

    I don’t need a sacrifice to “cover me” from anything. I don’t feel guilty about anything. It’s only dogma that teaches that sort of nonsense that suggest we “need a savior” and “we’re sinners”. Only if you believe the bible to be truth does it affect you. I personally know it to be literature and nothing more. It’s no different than if I read Tom Sawyer or Moby Dick. It’s folklore, a tale from the third person about the barbaric practices of the ancients. They liked to slaughter things and initiate covenants with blood, so they mutilated bulls and people as “sacrifices” to their totemic deities.

    You might consider reading Sergei Tokarev’s “History of Religion” which identifies the similarities among religions of the past. Many virgin born deities existed in myths and folklore long before the NT was penned, and most of them are derived from the agricultural deity that dies and rises on the third day (Saturnalia types).

  6. Ray, How about explaining just one thing for me? Which one of these scriptures is the truth?

    2Ki 8:26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

    2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

    Was he forty-two or twenty two? Which one of “god’s truthful words” is correct and which is incorrect and why is one incorrect if it’s God’s word and it’s true?

  7. Or these….

    Mat 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

    Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

    There are simply too many contradictory statements that Jesus makes it’s no wonder there are so many countless denominations of confused church goers.

    Mat 13:11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

    Plenty of texts that really confuse the reader. Also, if the bible is God’s word, and it’s a text written for us to “follow” and “do what it says”, Ray, exactly where did you put Paul’s stuff?

    2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee; for he is useful to me for ministering.
    2Ti 4:12 But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
    2Ti 4:13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou comest, and the books, especially the parchments.

    Can you go to Troas and get the cloak? The parchments?

    No. These are personal letters written a long time ago by a man with specific recipients (not you), and these letters were never intended to be compiled by the church fathers into a book to be used for worship 2000 years later.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    Paul wrote to the Thesalonians and many others promising the soon return of Christ during their lifetime. Never happened of course, and the texts are proof in itself against such an event by stating “we who are alive” (i.e., Paul himself and the people he wrote this letter to).

    Either you can do as Paul says and bring Luke with you (I guess you could dig him up if he was a real historical person), or you can’t.

    The texts aren’t meant for anyone today. They’re simply ancient literature, nothing more.

  8. Andrew

    Why are you on a Christian forum then? Sounds like your wasting your time, or are you trying to convince anyone with your frivilous comments?

  9. Hi Chuck, they’re only frivilous (spelled “frivolous” by the way) to those who are ignorant of the spirit of inquiry. Whenever one inquires to the authenticity of the texts that one once believed in, one should consider valid arguments.

    I’m simply questioning what keeps the Christian motivated other than the required blind faith without proof dogma.


  10. Chuck, you might be right actually on second thought. Since the book is entirely fictional and merely literature, the comments would be frivolous if the texts are always open to anyone’s interpretation and belief system.

    Myself being a non-religion type person, seeing from the outside looking in might actually be helpful to those ensnared in the various Christian cults.

    Question authority. Think for yourself.


  11. Dr. Brown,
    My comment got lost somewhere (there are so many responses to this comment). Here are a couple of thoughts.
    In Acts 14..”And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, “The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men”, and they called Barnabus Jupiter and Paul Mercurius because he was the chief speaker….” Acts 14:11-12.
    Wouldn’t this have been a perfect opportunity for the apostles to set these pagans straight on their theology? Why didn’t they say, “Hey, we’re not god-men but Jesus is! Instead he tells them about the one God, the Father. The concept of a god-man is, as we see here, a very pagan notion.

    Second, when Jesus prayed “Not my will but thy will be done,” it seems there are two wills involved. One “essence” cannot have two wills, correct?

    Third, 1 Jn 3:2″Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.”. If Jesus is God, as you assert, and we shall be like him, then you’re actually saying we shall be “like God” see Gen 3:5

    Four, in Revelation where God and the Lamb are being worshipped, where is the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit is fully God, shouldn’t he (it) be in this vision somewhere?

    So, to trinitarians, there is God the Father, who is Spirit, then another person (spirit) who is the holy spirit, then Jesus the god-man. Two spirits and a god-man?

    I realize that these may not be standard non-trinitarian arguements, but they speak powerfully to me. Once I took off my trinitarian spectacles, I see, on practically
    every page of the bible, the fallacy of the trinity. It is metaphysical nonsense. When I was a trinitarian, it was impossible for me to think of God as one-I always had three in my mind. It is only a mind trick to try to think of three as one, or to ponder “complex unity”. God did not make us that way. I can respect the rational mind God gave me without becoming a rationalist. Thank you Sir Anthony for being the voice of reason!!
    Thank you Dr. Brown, as well, for your show.
    Chloe’s mom.

    Anyone? Anyone?

  12. Andrew,
    You’ve covered a lot of ground that would take lots of time for anyone to respond. This particular forum is supposed to be covering a different topic. A good book for you to check out is “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. It’s a comprehensive book that should answer all your questions in every matter. If you’re serious about the questions you raise and truly want answers, check it out. It will save you a lot of time waiting for responses here.

  13. Andrew,

    I may have missed your response, but have you read the books I referenced? And, more importantly, are you here to learn the truth or simply to spout myths and opinions?

    If you did respond, please be kind enough to re-post your answer to me here.

  14. Andrew,

    One more thing. You can’t actually think that the “contradictions” you cite are actually troubling or have not been dealt with in depth by scholars. This is quite childish, although it might seem serious to you, but again, if you’re here to mock, we can’t help you (except through prayer; I was once a mocker too). If you’re here to learn, then be willing to study the solid sources I and others have referenced. This is not a silly game to be played.

  15. Chloe’s mom,

    I’ll try to respond if possible, but I’m basically off this thread as much as possible To me, there’s not an ounce of substance in any of the questions you raise — in fact, some of them, like the Acts 14 one, seem downright silly — but since you’re so convinced, I’m not sure that I can help you.

    I personally don’t wear Trinitarian glasses as a Jew, but I became convinced through intensive study of the Word that the best explanation that put the evidence together spoke of God’s complex unity.

    So, if at any point you have questions for which you want answers in the event that your position is wrong, perhaps someone posting here can help you. But again, given what you state at the end of the post, and given the presuppositions you now bring to the table, I don’t see that a few posts here will make much difference.

    Thanks for enjoying my show!

  16. When we come to Christ we should find a knowledge of our sins
    that causes us shame. Once shamed by our sins we can be turned from them through repentance. Being covered by the blood of Jesus, those repented of sins can not longer be held against us for damage or our destruction. Anyone who does so
    is then in violaton of the justice, mercy, and grace of God because of Jesus.

    We then learn to hate our sins, and the ways of evil which we see in the world. We can not be a part of those things which we were once, any longer. Therefore we despise the things we see
    people do that are contrary to righteousness. In that sense we
    hate, for the love of the truth has begun to apprehend us. So we leave others behind.

    The word “hate” can be used in several ways. Everything the Lord Jesus uses he uses right. He uses everything for good. What he puts his hand on is used for good, never for evil when it is indeed moved by his hand. Jesus never used anything for evil
    as far as I can tell.

    The evil one has been more than willing to do evil on his own. If God is ever against us, it is for our correction. Judging righteously
    he watches over us. If we suffer for our sins, we suffer. If we by his grace and mercy can come back to him, we do and find life to be good again.

    Coming to Jesus for life eternal is something to think about seriously. If you want all your sins found out, just follow Jesus.
    Tell God you want him to be your Lord and Saviour. Be willing for your sins to be found out, and to repent when you need to. When you are ready, repent and get started.

  17. Dear Dr. Brown,

    I just acquired volume 5 of your series. Once again, extremely erudite but also accessible!

    Dear All,

    I don’t have a great deal of time to post here right now but I just thought I’d briefly clarify a misconception voiced by Chloe’s Mom regarding what she wrongly imagines to be “god-men.” I’m going to make some basic comments on how the Classical (i.e. Greek and Roman) gods were understood by their worshippers and the poets/mythographers.

    The Classical gods (Greek gods and their Roman counterparts)–Zeus/Jupiter, Hermes/Mercury et al–were, by no means, understood by their worshippers to be “god-men”–neither when at home on Olympus nor when interacting with men on earth. The concept of “god-men” is by no means pagan but, in fact, quite alien to Classical pagan thought. No such notion as “god-man” exists in Classical Greek or Roman mythology/religion, nor does the concept of a divine being becoming “incarnate.” In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Classical gods to BECOME “incarnate” because they already ARE made of flesh–divine flesh, but flesh, nevertheless. To say that one of them “became” or “was made flesh and dwelt among us” would make no sense at all because they already are made of flesh. The gods of Classical myth are NOT incorporeal (“spiritual”) beings, nor are they invisible. Their natural appearance is anthropomorphic (i.e. human shaped)–that’s how they appear to each other on Olympus and to humans on earth. However they can dim their radiance or modify their form temporarily, and they often do so because it is otherwise dangerous for humans to behold them–for a human to behold a god in his full majesty can result in the death of the human beholder. Therefore, because they have the power to modify shape and appearance, when they wish to directly interact with humans, they often appear as everyday humans (note that the already anthropomorphic god’s anthropomorphism is, in such a case, MAINTAINED, not ASSUMED), or sometimes as animals.

    So you see, for a pagan to say that Jupiter or Mercury had appeared in “the likeness of men” only means that, while maintaining their normal corporeal anthropomorphism, they’ve dimmed their radiance and appeared as regular human beings for the sake of safe interaction. But they already were “in the likeness of men” insofar as they already were anthropomorphic.

    The Classical gods were not understood to be “spiritual” (i.e. non-corporeal) beings but rather beings of flesh and blood (a fluid called “ichor” was thought to run through their veins) from the time of their conception. It is impossible in this context for an “incarnation” to occur because they have bodies from the time of their conception–i.e. from the moment they come into existence. (This bears no similarity to the Biblical picture where we see the eternal, preexistent incorporeal, divine Logos quite literally “putting on flesh,” and thus becoming “incarnate.” “God-man” would apply much more easily to this scenario and is thus more biblical than pagan).

    Being immortal, the Classical gods do not “put off” their bodies nor can the body/soul dichotomy be properly applied to them.

    In the myths, the Classical gods regularly mate with humans. This is to be understood as two corporeal beings of flesh and blood (one human, one divine) having sex in exactly the same way that humans do with eachother on earth and gods do with eachother on Olympus. Offspring invariably results from these unions and the offspring is invariably (with the exception of Dionysus/Bacchus) HUMAN. Many of the Homeric Greek heroes such as Achilles, Aeneas et al were said to be the offspring of one divine and one human parent. However, NONE OF THEM, was either imagined to be a god or a “god-man.” They were understood to be MEN. Let me explain: In Greek myth/religion, the essential dividing line between gods and humans is mortality/immortality. It is a line that can not be crossed by either gods or humans (humans MUST die and gods CANNOT die). The offspring of gods and humans do not inherit the divine parent’s immortality and do not therefore inherit even the slightest bit of divinity. They are NOT “god-men.” And, in the rare instance that the gods choose to immortalize a human (Hercules, for example), that human has ceased to be a human and has become a god (the process is called apotheosis), since the essential dividing line that separates gods from men (mortality/immortality) has been crossed. Once the dividing line is crossed in either direction, the essential nature is completely changed. In Greek myth there is no such thing as “half man, half god”–you must be either one or the other, and it makes no difference at all that one of your parents happens to be a god. No “god-men” appear in the myths.

    Conclusion: the title “god-man” can neither be applied correctly to Classical pagan gods, nor to the offspring of the sexual unions of Classical pagan gods and humans. The idea of “god-men” is quite alien to Classical pagan thought.

  18. Thank you Dr. Brown and tj for taking the time to respond to my comment. I do appreciate your time.
    Blessings! Chloe’s mom.

  19. Thank you Dr. Brown and tj for taking the time to respond to my comment. I do appreciate your time.
    Blessings! Chloe’s mom.

  20. Do we injustice to the word of God if we suggest Psalm 22 is a lot about the Messiah who later came?

    We can read about things that happened to Jesus at a time that was long after the writing of Psalm 22, but if we do have a detailed record of what Jesus did in the beginning, we find it through faith. Without faith it’s impossible to find.

    That word that was with God was brought up by him.

    Tell me, who was it that was set up from everlasting, from the begining, or ever the earth was? (Proverbs 8:23) What is his name? What did God call him, if you can tell me?

    In those last days they called him God’s Son. (see Hebrews 1:2)

  21. Dear Cloe’s mom,

    I read your questions of March 1, above and would like to try to answer some of that as I would give answer to those things, if I may.

    It seems that I have this opportunity here.

    IN answer to question 1, Why is it that we don’t see the apostle
    Paul respond to the situation we read of in Acts 14:11-12 by telling the people that Jesus is a god-man? I myself suppose that it’s not the best answer for an apostle of Jesus Christ in such a situation. It seems to me that if it were, we may have seen it.
    Such an answer that you put forth is so typical of today and the theology that we find all around us which is quite foreign to the scriptures. I believe we as Christians can indeed do without it if we so choose. God has given us free will and the liberty that is in Christ by the holy spirit so that we need not answer in such ways if we do not see fit. Paul could have said something like, “Well I’m no god come down from heaven, but if indeed you would like to get to know one, may I present the good news of Jesus to you?
    For he was with God in the beginning, being as God is, in holiness, righteousness, truth, and the wisdom that comes from God his Father, even our Father, the Father of all who believe on him who so loved this world that he sent his own Son from heaven to be born of a woman on this earth, born as one of us, though his conception was by God’s doing himself, without any
    human intervention..etc”

    It seems to me that each of us have to decide for ourselves how to share the gospel of Christ, and that the ways of some men will not be our ways, but God will order our ways in Christ as we seek him by faith in the good news we have received which is of him, for God desires us to be led by him rather than by men or the things of men if they be contrary to him, or fall short of his way of doing things.

    Can one essence have two wills? It seems to me not if that essence is to have the peace of God. I think of the peace of God to be a simple unity rather than a complex one, though finding it will not always be easy or simple (for there are so many things concerning justice, righteousness, truth, love, etc.. even all the word), as we learn of Jesus, even as we are in the process of being taught by him.

    It seems to me that if something has two wills then something of that has not yet been reconciled to God. Therefore Jesus, not yet having reconciled our flesh to God, fought the good fight of faith,
    found the victory over the ways of the devil, and entered back into his glory with even more than he left heaven with. Therefore
    he is blessed forever. Amen.

    #3, I can’t answer for another, but it seems to me that people will be like God to the extent that they become as Jesus. Adam and Eve had already been made in the image of God and his Son,
    their makers, but through deception and the sin that came to her
    through disobedience, Eve having had known only good, came to know (as Satan also) what it was to fall from a place of knowing only good, to knowing evil also. God and Jesus know the difference between good and evil, but have always chosen the good. Neither the Father, nor the Son have fallen into sin. Praised be their name forever. (for didn’t God name his Son after himself?)

    #4 In the book of Revelation, we see God and the Lamb worshipped, but what of the Holy Spirit? Is he ever worshipped?

    This is a good question. I will need to brush up on this one. I recommend a book by a man named Dean Braxton, called “IN HEAVEN – Experiencing the throne of God” (Just put his name in your search engine. You should be able to find out how to order)

    I’ve heard by several of those who have interacted with God in the heavenly realm of heaven, only the Father and the Son are worhipped, though the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit, I don’t always know how to capitalize things ) is there.

    It seems to me that we worship God and Jesus by the holy spirit which he has given us. Jesus having done his work which God gave him to do, gave this to us which came from the Father. Jesus
    received this of God and gave it to us which is able to keep us in
    himself by that power. Jesus keeps us by the power of God, and part of this keeping of us is by the help of the gift of his Spirit which he has committed unto us.

    I sometimes wondered if the holy spirit is a person. I remember how Jesus was called “that holy thing” when he was a very young
    member of our race, being in the womb of his mother Mary.

    It seems to me that the holy spirit (the Comforter who Jesus sent)
    is a lot like God, who said of himself, “I AM WHAT I AM.” (or “I AM THAT I AM. )

    So it seems to me that God isn’t just who he is, but also what he is.

    I Cor 15:10
    ….I am what I am… (KJV)

    I Cor 15:10
    ….I am that I am… (1599 Geneva Bible)

    Here’s something to consider:

    If people can be salt, can’t Jesus be God?

    I think there is a sense in which Jesus is God, and yet more than just a sense. Jesus is love just as God is love. God is love and there is more than one sense in which Jesus is love. In so many ways Jesus is love. Isn’t he love in every way that love is love?

    I wonder how many scriptures there are that speak of Jesus, just as they speak of God. There must be so many.

  22. Correction, we can be reconciled to God, but not our flesh.

    That’s a deep question about the two wills and connecting it with one essence. Maybe it’s a question I should avoid in the future. I wonder where such questions come from. I suppose they stem from a wrong kind of tree or something.

    I see that Jesus had a desire to avoid the cross, for we also seek to avoid suffering, injustice, mistreatment, and death. But Jesus committed himself to God and it seems to me that he entered into
    God’s peace…a powerful rule. (see Col 3:15 KJV)

  23. Andrew, the only way I know that we can really know that the Bible is true for sure is to do what it says for therein we find the knowledge of God that we seek.

    Forgive me for suggesting that the Bible is 100% accurate. I don’t know if there is one particluar Bible on earth today that is that accurate, though the word of God once given was accurate or it wouldn’t be the word of God.

    There’s lots of the word of God in the Bible. If you’re looking for a book that has the most word of God in it, that’s the one I would suggest.

    No I haven’t done all it says to do, not yet anyway. I’ve fallen far short of it just as you have, maybe even more so, but God had prepared for me a ransom, his Lamb that was prepared to be slain, Jesus by name.

    I’m wondering if you are the type of person that will not ride in a vehicle that isn’t perfect. You sure wouldn’t want to get in mine if I offered you a ride. Mine has over 400,000 miles on it. I try to take care of it. I even work on it myself a lot. Now I suppose you
    really wouldn’t want to go anywhere with me in it. It’s likely not
    100% perfect, but I use it to go where I want to and need to. I like it just fine even though it’s not 100% perfect. It has gotten me places in the past just fine and still works well in it’s present

    It’s had a few owners. I don’t really know what the previous owners have done with it. Even I changed things around in it a little bit. It still has the ability to get me around and I’ve gotten used to it. I feel comfortable with it. I feel confident that there are
    things I can fix because I’ve had it so long.

    There’s going to be lots of people in heaven that had Bibles that were not in perfect condition. Some of them have torn pages and bindings that are coming loose. But people were able to get somewhere with them.

    I can’t tell you the Bible I have is 100% accurate. I find things I’m not at this time able to understand when I compare it with other
    scriptures, but I do find enlightenment when different scriptures come together for me.

    When I open it and read it sometimes I do find where I have fallen short. I don’t think God holds me to every word by the letter of it as if it was some kind of legal paper to be used against me at all times. I believe there’s a lot that’s in it that I do not have to do, for times and seasons have changed by God’s power.

    But by the grace of God, he will remind me of what I need to do that I have not done, and that with or without the intervention of others. He will send a word to me by others for my correction at times. I should expect that to happen at times. That’s a part of living in one body by Christ Jesus.

    Isn’t the Bible like a car in that it is able to take people somewhere if they are willing to get in it? If we truly get in the Word won’t the Word take us places, and won’t we begin to see things as we go?

  24. Ray,

    It sounds like your a professed biblical adherent. I am not. I believe that God is so wonderful and perfect that the creation is such right now. I believe that death is a wonderful end to life. I believe that after death, we experience nothing, see nothing, feel nothing, we are gone, done, and over. That’s the humble approach. Only human arrogance and emotional attachment to existence suggests otherwise. Only human arrogance demands that God give us something more than what we’re already humbly offered. The real God (not the bible one invented by men with pen) created eternal life already through procreation. The cycles of the universe suggest that life is reproductive. We already have progeny. That’s good enough for me. I would never be so selfish to demand that God give me more than I am already given. I have the chance to continue life through my children, grandchildren, etc. That’s heaven for me. That’s my idea of life everlasting, knowing that I can teach TRUTH and reality to my family instead of fairy tales by a book describing a jealous and angry deity that creates beings, punishes or rewards them based on deed, then offers a vicarious atonement that violates one of his own laws (Deu 24:16).

    I think people that are raised to believe the bible is the word of God should at least listen to several preachers and priests that left the religion and bible all together and hear their inputs.

    Here is one article for your consideration…


    In the end, Christianity to me seems to be a selfish religion demanding more to life than what reality suggests is here.

  25. Also, Ray, I asked you about doing all that the bible says to do and you told me you “fall short”. There are simply certain things in the bible that are obvious flaws, errors, and personal matters between Paul of Tarsus and others. There are obvious connections to other religions within the texts, Zoroastrianism, Mithraic worship, etc. When Paul talks about the “prince of the powers of the air” Christians just associate it with “Satan”, God forbid they actually read the Avesta (Zoroaster’s bible) and see what the real definition is.

    I suggest you read about other religions that pre-date the bible by hundreds of years, and see that the bible is nothing more than a copycat of other Mediterranean cults and texts. The New Testament was heavily influenced by Persian and Hellenistic views. The book is riddled with texts that promote solar astrology, the dying and raised three day savior concept is nothing more than the sun’s three day death during the winter solstice from December 23rd-25th. Paul in 1 Corinithians says the following:

    1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

    These texts are NO WHERE to be found anywhere in the OT prophecies. These are texts that suggest the influence of the culture where he was raised, Tarsus, Persian religion.

    The idea of a virgin born deity dying and rising three days later stems from Pagan mystery religion not from a Hebrew deity. Deuteronomy 24:16 makes it clear that NO ONE can die for your sins.

  26. Andrew

    Deuteronomy 24:16 makes it clear that NO ONE can die for your sins.

    Why did YHWH institute a sacrificial system whereby the death of animals covered up the sins of Israel?

    Deut 24.16 is simply referring to the individual culpability of sin and not to some universal rule of thumb.

  27. Chuck, good point. YHWH’s law says that animal sacrifice is the way to shed blood to cover CERTAIN sins, (not all, as some sin was forgiven without any bloodshed, i.e, the scape goat, incense, etc), therefore, it is a violation of YHWH’s law to offer human blood (see Leviticus 17) as a sacrifice.

    The person committing the sin is responsible for their own sacrifcie, (i.e, lambs, bulls, etc) and they are to offer up according to the Torah. The Torah STRICTLY forbids human sacrifice or any kind of murder of an innocent as a means to atone. Jesus was allegedly an innocent human, not a lamb. He didn’t qualify as a sacrifice as the Torah states, unless you’d like to show that he had split hooves and chewed cud. He was improperly offered at that, as the Torah strictly states that his throat was to be slit and ALL the blood drained and poured onto an altar. That didn’t happen with the Jesus story. The Jesus story says that Romans executed him on a pagan torture device, something deplorable and unacceptable to the OT God you refer to.

    Very good point indeed.

    Also, one might add that if Jesus is supposed to be a sacrifice for sin, the Passover meal isn’t the proper occasion. That meal is a memorial of the Exodus of Egypt, not a sin sacrifice. The day of atonement of course comes later, in the fall. Once again, Jesus doesn’t qualify.

    Deu 18:9 “When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.
    Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
    Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
    Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

    So the question must be, if the New Testament is allegedly a fulfillment of the OT, how does Jesus Christ qualify as a sin sacrifice according to the law and prophets? As far as any knowledgeable Jew will tell you, he doesn’t. Jews are well versed in the Torah and they rejected Jesus for a very good reason. He simply doesn’t qualify as the Messiah.

  28. Chuck, if you’d like to explore more about the Jewish reason for why Jesus doesn’t work….

    Scriptural Facts Versus Dogma

    Q: Is it true that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin?

    A: No. The bloodless meal offering atoned for sin. (Leviticus 5,13). The half shekel money offering atoned for the souls of the Children of Israel (Exodus 30,11-16). The Scapegoat which bore all the iniquities of Israel was sent away alive into the wilderness (Lev. 16,21-22). Aaron’s incense atoned for the people, and stayed the plague (Numbers 17,2).

    Q: Is there an alternative to the carnal sacrifice?

    A: Yes. The practice of mercy and truth atones for sins (Proverbs 16,6). Obedience to YHVH’s Word is preferable to sacrifices (1Samuel 15,22). Prayer is an acceptable substitute for the sacrificial act (Hosea 14,3).

    Q: Does Scripture teach us that someone other than ourselves can atone for our sins by dying in our stead?

    A: On the contrary. The Bible says: “Every man shall be put to death for his own sin” Deuteronomy 24,16. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die”. Ezekiel 18,3-4. “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of my Book” Exodus 32,33. Scripture does state, however: “The wicked is a ransom for the righteous; and the faithless comes in stead of the upright.” Proverbs 21,18. This does not mean that the righteous die to atone for the sinners. (Compare Exodus 32,31-33.)

    Q: Did not the Servant of YHVH described in Isaiah 53 die for the sins of others?

    A: No! It pleased YHVH to permit the Servant to suffer and be oppressed ONLY to see IF he were willing to offer his life as an offering. If the Servant is ready to do so, he is rewarded with “seed” (numerous descendants) and a long life! (verse 10). What is described here is a process of trial and purification, and NOT an innocent person being punished by a capricious deity for sins committed by others!

    Q: How, then can we regain life, overcome the wages of sin?

    A: Let Scripture speak for itself: “Again when I say to the wicked, thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin and do that which is lawful and right… he shall surely live, he shall not die, none of his sins that he hath committed shall be remembered against him.” Ezekiel 33,14-19.

    Q: Is man capable of satisfying the requirements of the Law?

    A: “For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.” Deuteronomy 30,11.

    Q: What is good, and what is required of us?

    A: Only to do justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator (Micah 6,8). To love YHVH and observe His Commandments. (Deuteronomy 10,12-13).

    “Therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed”!! Deuteronomy 30,19


  29. Andrew and Ray,

    We’ll be stopping this discussion here since it is off topic and one of our rules is that posts must stay on topic. (Andrew, we also informed you of this privately.)

    And Andrew, as for reasons that Jesus “doesn’t work” for Jewish people — these objections and scores of others have been completely answered and thoroughly refuted many times over.

    What you have demonstrated to us here is that you have no desire to seek the truth but only to argue against the truth. May the Lord graciously open your eyes to see!

  30. Dr. Brown, I don’t want your “lord” to open my eyes. My eyes are open to reality already. Leaving the bible behind and discovering Deism was the best move I ever made. No guilty feelings, no invisible dying and resurrected third day deity to worry about, no need to feel anything but happiness each day and be proud of who I am and what I can achieve without religious hypocrisy and it’s numerous denominations of confusion.

  31. As far as “truth” is concerned Dr. Brown, here’s what’s true:

    One cannot see or hear Jesus Christ. He is limited to what a book says. He’s a book character. That is true. Unless my eyes can be opened by you coming to my house and doing some of the things the biblical Jesus did and taught his disciples to do, yes, they will remain shut and will believe it to be folklore. I’ve yet to meet a Christian who can actually do ANYTHING the New Testament teaches them to do, and all I get for reasons why they can’t do ANYTHING it says are excuses.

    The whole problem with “faith” is that “faith” is putting belief in something that cannot be proved. Your entire belief system you call “truth” relies upon accepting certain unseen concepts. To me, that’s absurd, and to anyone who is not religious and never was it is as well.

    Obviously the Jewish people knew well enough to reject Jesus just like they did with numerous other Messiah claimants. He didn’t do anything Messianic, the whole faith system requires a belief in a “second coming” to solve all those problems.

    I will be happy to open my eyes if you can do what your religion teaches you to do and convert me based upon fact, not fiction.

    Show me a miracle Dr. Brown. IF the holy spirit is actually indwelling in you, you would be fully capable of raising a dead person or turning water into wine or any one of the miracles described in the bible.


  32. Hey Dr. Brown!! I just spent a few hours going through this entire thread and had an absolute BLAST seeing all the activity and learning about different perspectives on Jesus.

    GOD BLESS YOU for all the work you’ve done in the name of Jesus Christ!! The Lord has used your work to bring me, and MANY MANY other Jews, to faith in JESUS–which COMPLETELY transforms lives!! I must say, the biggest testament to your faith in Christ is that you have put up with A LOT in this thread without loosing your cool because the HOLY SPIRIT lives in you!! Don’t ever stop teaching and preaching with love as you have so beautifully done over the course of the past few weeks!!

    Again God Bless you for all your patience with people and hard-work towards the kingdom of Christ!!

    And after all these posts I’m left with two burning questions:
    If Jesus Christ was NOT unified with the pre-existing complex God of the bible, if Jesus was a STRANGER to our forefathers–how are we to worship Him as Lord our God today?

    And We were NEVER called to worship the temple or tabernacle, so how could we worship Jesus if He was nothing more than God dwelling in a human being?

    sorry for all the caps, I got a bit excited!

    God Bless you Dr. Brown and remember not to get discouraged by people’s posts and personal attacks because Christ’s work through your work has changed the lives of many and I can personally attest to that!

  33. Andrew

    …how does Jesus Christ qualify as a sin sacrifice according to the law and prophets?

    In the NT Jesus is figuratively portrayed as the Lamb of God, an acceptable sacrifice without blemish or defect. This harks back to the Passover sacrifice of a lamb or to the daily sacrifice in the Temple (Exod 29:38-46; Heb 10).

    This is a precedent set by Jewish Christians and not some Gentile influx or addition from such passages as “the Suffering Servant” of Isa 53.

    My eyes are open to reality already. Leaving the bible behind and discovering Deism was the best move I ever made.

    I am glad for you but why are you wasting your time on posts such as this?

  34. Lior,

    Thanks for your kind and gracious words. I am so blessed to hear that we were able to help you in your journey. It is one of the great privileges of my life to help lead other Jews to Jesus our Messiah and King!

    Keep pressing in to Him and honoring Him and you will bear much lasting fruit.

  35. Lior,

    Regarding your questions:

    “If Jesus Christ was NOT unified with the pre-existing complex God of the bible, if Jesus was a STRANGER to our forefathers–how are we to worship Him as Lord our God today?”

    Yes, the point is that it was always through the Son/the Word through whom God manifested Himself in the Tanakh; that revelation just became much clearer in the. So, we continue to worship the same God, but now revealed in full through Jesus.

    “And We were NEVER called to worship the temple or tabernacle, so how could we worship Jesus if He was nothing more than God dwelling in a human being?”

    First, we don’t worship the flesh of Jesus (anymore than Israel worshiped the Tabernacle itself) but His entire person — the Word made flesh; God incarnate. Second, there is a difference between a Tabernacle and a human being. The latter is actually created in God’s image, so in a unique way, divinity and humanity meet together in the person of Jesus.

  36. Dr. Brown, can you please clarify what you mean by “we don’t worship the flesh of Jesus”, I was a bit confused when I saw that, not because I disagree necessarily, but I haven’t heard that terminology before of worshiping the flesh of Jesus.

    When I pray to God I kind of form an image of what I thought Jesus may of looked like in my head, is that bad? I just need some clarification because that could be me worshiping the flesh of Jesus by trying to vision what I thought He may of looked like in my head. I know there is “no beauty we should desire” for Him, but.. It just kind of happens naturally when I pray.


  37. About the discussions we as Christians have had and seen as to whether or not Jesus is God, it seems to me that one may indeed find many a scripture to prove that Jesus is someone other than God, and that one may also find as many if not more scriptures that say that Jesus is everything that God is.

    If the scriptures do indeed say that Jesus is God, I do not think it to be robbery.

    Though we do not see Jesus saying in these very words> “I am God.” , if we were to read of him saying so, it would not be robbery.

    Sometimes I wonder if there are more scriptures that speak of God that apply likewise to Jesus, than there are that speak of him as being someone other than God, that is, I wonder if those scriptures that speak of God, that also apply to Jesus likewise, are more than the ones we find that speak of Jesus as being someone other than God.

    I don’t know which there are more of… one, or the other.

    We could take either side it seems to me.

    I believe there is a sense in which Jesus is God while at the same time he is someone other than God, for he is his Son.

    If people can be salt, can’t Jesus be God?

    We can take either side it seems to me.

    In what ever side we take, let’s be fair about it.

    I wonder which side God takes. I think he will be found on the side that’s fair, whatever is true, honest, just, etc. (see Philippians 4:8)

    For God so loved the world…

    God gave us the very image of himself when he gave us Jesus.

  38. In comparing Jesus with God, here is something that applies to both of them.

    The man that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (see Hebrews 11:6)

    I find it interesting that one of the first things God told Moses about himself is that he is. He even named himself after that fact.
    (see Exodus 3:14)

    Now the man that comes to Jesus must also believe that he is, that is, that he actually exists. Now he also is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (see Luke 24:1-10)

    Now the man that believes that Jesus is and confesses him as the man that he is, (see I Tim 2:5) receives of his Spirit, and that spirit is eternal life.

    If a man worships Jesus as the Christ, he will receive the Spirit of God. That is how a man may know that God is true. (see I John 5:10)

    Jesus is God’s agent, representative, example, messenger, and such, so much so, that people say that he is God, even though there is a distinction between the Father and the Son.

    Isn’t the safest place to be with the word that is God, and the same that was in the beginning with him? (see John 1)

    It’s interesting to compare what God did in the beginning (Genesis 1:2,3) with what God did later. (Luke 1:35)

  39. Sometimes I wonder if people confuse who Jesus is with what he is.

    I suppose some defend who he is and others defend what he is.

    Because God is as he is, he also is what he is and it seems to me that we can see so much of the same in his Son.

    If we read about how the Son of man (Jesus) is Lord over the sabbath we can also read about how a man who walked by the Spirit of God established the righteousness of it.

    The Pharisees who came to Jesus about things concerning the sabbath seemed to be lords over it, but when they came to Jesus
    they found him to be the higher power.

    Was this because he is God or because he walked by the Sprit of God?

    I suppose what we become is greatly determined by what we do.
    If we obey God by the spirit he’s given us, we will become the sons of God. We will become what we are called to be as we are being it by the spirit of God. We will then be what we are of God
    in Christ Jesus. Yet it isn’t clear what we shall be. So we go ahead not knowing much at all.

    If one defends who Jesus is and another defends what he is will one find anything in the other that is in need of correction? I suppose it will depend on how they walk.

    The Pharisees came to Jesus and found nothing in need of correction, though at times they tried.

    What then is it that we defend, our faith, something that is a part of it, or something that is not a part of our faith? What is it that we defend and why is it that we defend it so?

  40. Thanks Dr. Brown! and that’s a great question Eric! I sometimes find myself picturing Jesus when I pray, and then I quickly try to remind myself not to picture Him. Sometimes I get a little uncomfortable when I see pictures or images of Him too.

    I’m not really sure what the answer is or what scriptures say about this issue–Dr. Brown, could you shed a little bit of light on Eric’s question? Or refer us to a place where we can learn more about it? I’m sure you’re extremely busy, so anything would be greatly appreciated, even if it’s really quick!

    Thanks Dr. Brown and God Bless you and your ministry!

  41. Eric,

    Picturing Jesus or not is not the issue (we certainly have a depiction of Him in His glory in Rev 1, just as we have a depiction of the Father in His glory in Ezek 1). The issue is thinking that His physical body was divine — as opposed to being the physical body of a human being in which the fullness of God pitched His tent. That was my only point, and the only reason I raised it was because counter-missionaries will say, “We cannot see the form of God,” and I say, “Yes, but the physical body of Jesus is not the form of God.”

    Again, nothing more than that and nothing to get hung up about.

  42. Since we are entering into a discussion about picturing Jesus and about whether or not we may see the form of God, may I tell you about what I have experienced? This seems to me to fit into this discussion.

    I had taken a class in which we were encouraged to picture Jesus
    in his resurrected glory. We were told that this is often helpful when ministring healing to others. It’s simply a method one teacher learned to apply while he ministered and the Lord often met him there in that process.

    So a day or two later, at the end of my day at work, I too thought to practice picturing Jesus in his resurrected glory, but
    my mind kept going back to him on the cross. No matter how I tried doing this, my mind went back to the cross.

    Then while on my drive home as I was driving, I saw him in a glorious picture, seeing him with spiritual eyes, a glorious picture
    in living colorful light. His body looked like the proverbial Greek God. I don’t know how else to explain what I saw. I then saw that he had the cross on his shoulder. I saw the crown of thorns.
    All of this surprised me and I was enthralled by it. I don’t know how else to say it. I was captivated by what I saw of Jesus.
    There was no blood, cuts, or bruises on him at this time. This is how he wanted me to see him at this moment. Then I saw that his cheek was against the cross. I saw that he was Embracing it
    and that it was a thing of such glory. Then it seemed as if his visage was changing. It began to look like me and then the vision ended.

    That’s what God wanted me to see. At this particular time he wanted me to see Jesus this way. It was Jesus showing me this
    according to the will of God.

    Shortly afterward I found myself in a situation where I needed to remember this and embrace what I has been shown, knowing that in God’s perspective the cross is a thing of glory as I had been shown by the Lord Jesus.

    So I will say to those of you who wonder if they should picture Jesus in their mind, don’t be afraid to do so. I know he can show you what he wants you to see, for he is a rewarder of those who come to him, knowing that he is, and he is also a rewarder of those that diligently seek him.

    So would I describe what I saw as “in the form of man” or “in the form of God”? I suppose I would have to say that what I saw was …like…both. I saw him in ….like the image of God. I don’t know how else to describe it.

  43. Dr Brown

    …the physical body of Jesus is not the form of God.

    So, Jesus is not God after all then? 🙂

  44. When God lookes at Jesus I wonder if he sees anything other than himself. I suppose God also sees us in Jesus, but when God talks to Jesus I wonder if he considers that he’s talking with all that he himself is even as he’s talking to his Son.

    When God does something through Jesus I wonder if he considers that Jesus does it by what God himself is.

    I wonder if God could ever say that he did something by himself
    even as God commanded Jesus to do it and Jesus did it by whatever God is.

    I’m just wondering if God could use language that way.

    I’ve often heard it said that as the Lord refines us, he’s looking to see when he sees himself. I’ve heard that he will not quit the refining process untill he sees his own reflection, his own image….
    which is…? , God?

    If ever there came a time when Jesus did something through me
    and I overheard him talk to another about what he did through me, and it came out in such a way that, he was saying that he did
    it by himself….I don’t think I would feel….left out. I think it would be a wonderful thing to hear.

  45. The angel, the messenger, the shepherd, who has kept me in Christ Jesus, has blessed me.

    OK, I begin to see the plural unity of God here. I think I’m catching on.

    The Lord, the Creator, the Provider, will continue to bless me even as I abide in Jesus.

    I think I’m getting it now.

    God is many things just as he said he is, for he said “I AM What I Am.” All of these things is what God is, and there is much, much more to what he is.

    I’m caused to ask a question. Is there a plurality of persons in the one God?

    In God there will be all the persons who have the fullness of God abiding in them even as they are in Christ Jesus, as Christ is dwelling in them, for he is the fullness of God. In that day God will be all he is in all of them. They will be lacking nothing, but will be complete in God. Even while on this earth, those that are in Christ are complete in him.

    Is God the angel who wrestled with Jacob?

    When Jacob wrestled with this angel, he wrestled with God.
    When we stumble at the word we stumble at what God has placed in Zion.

    I believe the angel whom Jacob wrestled with, was his representative of God whom God had sent to Jacob. This repesentative of God was sent to Jacob to give him a blessing
    of God. In wrestling with God’s representative, Jacob wrestled with God.

    God sent this angel to represent himself.

  46. Dr. Brown,

    How many births, or being begotton do you see in the scriptures concerning Jesus. There are three that I am looking at.

    Here’s how I got there.

    Proverbs 8:24
    when there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    Colossians 1: 15..
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    For by him were all things created…

    Michah 5:2
    ….whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    I consider his first birth to have been from this time before the world was, before there was anything made that was made. I consider that he must have been in God and came from God, as being born, for he is his Son. Proverbs 8 speaks of him this way
    as it continues.

    I consider Proverbs 8 to be both a disclosure of wisdom and also a prophetic utterance which reveals things about Christ.

    It seems to me that Jesus had a birth from before the world began. (#1)

    One day I was listening to a Christian who was hosting a radio program. He was asking the listeners “What does Jesus really look like?” People started calling in with testimony of seeing him
    in the sky with outstretched arms, and other visions of him, each one with a different perspective of him.

    Then he asked the listeners, how do we picture Jesus? I opened up my Bible and was reading somewhere about his birth. I pictured Jesus as developing in the womb of Mary. Shortly afterward I began to picture Jesus coming from God into this world, about the time of his conception.

    To me this seemed like a birth of the spirit, being born of the spirit, for he came out from God. I’ll call this a birth. (#2)

    We are also told that Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because of his resurrection.

    Colossians 1:18
    …the firstborn from the dead;… (#3)

    There may be more, but those three things I think of as “births” or being born.

    I hope this isn’t too far off topic. It seems to me to be connected to the subject matter of God and his Son Jesus.

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