In the first hour, Dr. Brown will tackle some of the hottest church controversies and take your calls; in the second hour, he’ll talk with Prof. Tony Costa about the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists, including Dr. Ben Carson. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Sabbath is not something that we should divide over, and ultimately our Sabbath rest is found in the Messiah.
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The closer you examine the SDA the clearer the picture of a replacement theology. You can see the blindness in the Israel debate with Steve Wohlberg and Michael Brown. You as an SDA are keeping the Sabbath and are in the new covenant. The Jewish people rejected the Christ and the SDA is the remnant people. Ridiculous upon further review isn’t it?
The point was rightly made that the Seventh Day Adventists are inconsistent for not also keeping YHWH’s feasts since they think that the dietary laws and the Sabbath are to be kept. Their reliance upon E. G. White for their doctrine and instruction in righteousness is very problematic also for we know that Paul specified that we get our doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the Torah and the Prophets. That is where the Apostles got theirs and Messiah rebuked the religious leaders of His day for inventing their own traditions and commandments of men instead of following scripture. So the pot is calling the kettle black when the rest of modern Churchianty accuses the Seventh Day Adventists of inconsistency. “How?” you say.
The kettle calls the pot black as well because SDA members rightly claim that the other side is wrong for only accepting 9 of the 10 commandments. This inconsistency is more striking than that of the SDA movement, because Churchianity is relying on the Pope for their doctrine of Sunday worship. Protestants rightly protest the papacy, but have not broken free from the traditions and commandments of men concerning this. At least the SDA’s accept doctrine from a woman that they think is a prophetess. The rest of Churchianty accepts doctrine from a person/office that they think is not a prophet or rightly in authority.
I know that there are some that do not think that that Sunday is the Sabbath, but does that make them better or worse? At least the real Sunday “Sabbath” keepers are trying to keep a Sabbath instead of claiming that YHWH’s commandment has no force.
Dr. Brown is correct when he asks that everyone involved in this debate be careful that they are not just accepting what they have been taught by men and their systems of religion, but I am not sure that he is doing it any more than the rest. His idea that something must be reiterated, in what has been called the “New Testament,” to remain in force is a manmade doctrine in itself. It has been foisted upon us in our ignorance or in our youth. The writings of the “New Testament” do not claim that they tell us everything we need to know. These writings do not say that anything that is not mentioned as a commandment in them is not a commandment, but quite the opposite. (I’ll get to that in a minute.)
Those that hang on to this idea of reiteration are not consistent in applying this doctrine of men, for they accept many things as instruction in righteousness and holiness that are not reiterated from what they call the “Old Testament.” It is never reiterated that we must not take YHWH’s name in vain in the NT. It is not specifically reiterated that we may not eat human flesh. It is not specifically reiterated that we may not lie with a beast. Some will say that these are included in some way by general reference or because they fall into a category that is reiterated. I am fine with that…but are they? So I ask what things are reiterated and generally included in:
Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
You see, all the words of YHWH are for mankind to obey. They do not pass away until heaven and earth pass away. The ones in what we call the “Old Testament” are what Paul told Timothy to use to understand correct doctrine and be instructed in righteousness and even to teach those in his charge.
2Ti 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Ch. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Timothy was warned that there would come a time when so-called believers would not accept sound doctrine that Paul told Timothy to get from the Law and the Prophets. It is a fable that something must be specifically reiterated in the NT for it to remain in force. It is a fable that we can know what is commanded in YHWH’s perfect law and only give lip service, or ear service rather, to it and not be deceived. It is a fable that we can ignore YHWH’s law because we have come to faith in Messiah.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Jas 1: 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Messiah is the one that told us in no uncertain terms that we would receive our place of authority in His kingdom according to our commitment to doing and teaching even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments. That means that they are still commandments. It means that if He taught or sent any of His disciples to teach that we need not keep the dietary laws or YHWH’s Sabbath and feast days that He violated His own teaching and has forfeited being the greatest in the kingdom. But we know that this cannot be, because He is the king of that kingdom and has been given a name above every other name.
Since no NT or OT passage says that only the commandments reiterated in the NT are binding, it is a man-made doctrine that has no basis in scripture and thus is a false teaching. It is a self-defeating argument to declare that if it is not in the NT it is not for us when there is nothing in the NT that says this. The doctrine of reiteration is refuted by the very scripture that Messiah and Paul called scripture.
De 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Ch. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
It does not matter what is reiterated. Anything that is in opposition to what Messiah and Paul called the scripture is from a false prophet. If Messiah or Paul opposed any commandment of YHWH in their teaching, they are not to be obeyed. Paul went to great lengths to prove that he continued to keep the law and he proved that he did not teach against it.
Ac 21: 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Shalom
Tithing teaching error is found in this discussion somewhere I just know it.lol your great Micheal brown patient and kind.
The Seven Day Adventist group I have a problem with their logic. This is similar to Messianics. The pride is strong among them as they point their finger towards non Shabbat keepers. Yet they think Shabbat is on Saturday when it actually is Friday night to Saturday night.
They think Shabbat is going somewhere to sing songs on a Saturday. And if you don’t do it like them than they look down upon you.
The NT writings write that for some they worship YHWH seven days a week. This is the Jews, seven day a week, three times a day public worship of YHWH. The Christians think there must be one day only. They equate going to a meeting or service as keeping Shabbat. But the Torah writes nothing about this.
Is it bad to do what they do. Yes. They judge others for not listening to the Torah and they don’t listen to it either.
At least have good reasoning.
If you want to cook or burn fire on Shabbat at least have a good reasoning on why you can. But instead, they demand the Torah Law on others while giving themselvess leniencies.
Everyone wants to be Jewish now a days. So many want to convert. Why? They use logic and reason and consistency.
Messianics are good people but vary in observance degrees. All I ask is that people use good reasoning and not act like they are following the Torah law themselves when they are not.
Messianics and Seven Day Advantist remember the Shabbat, but it is rare that they keep Shabbat.
Messianics and Seven Day Advantist worship YHWH one day a week on Saturday morning. But Jews worhsip YHWH every day, three times a day in group worship.
Jews also keep Shabbat not just remember it. Torah says no fire on Shabbat, stay in your dwelling place and rest, that’s it. It says nothing about being social or going somewhere, it says nothing about worshipping YHWH because that is everyday, all day. What makes Shabbat Shabbat is remembering and keeping it.
I wish the whole world kept Shabbat and not just remembered it.
Sunday will never be Shabbat. But you certainly can rest on Sunday. You certainly can go somewhere on Sunday, you can worship YHWH on Sunday, or Monday etc. just like the Jews do so everyday.
Humility is important. Not being a hypocrite is the path of YHWH. Thinking with consistency is good.
I conclude with this. Ignorance of YHWH’s Bible has confused and made prideful alot of people in Christianity.
To Eliyahu,
Small correction to your post above. The SDA actually keeps the sabbath sundown to sundown. They start the sabbath on Friday sundown. Even the bulletins print the change in time to keep the observance exact. I grew up SDA and could not wait until Sat nt!
I don’t understand why do people think that keeping the Sabbath is legalistic. Sabbath is sign between God and his people. (Exo 31:13; Eze 20:12; Eze 20:20) In what sense? Sign is something visible and in this case keeping the Sabbath was to signify that people TRUST their God. Before it was given on Sinai as one of the Ten Commandments Sabbath was introduced to the people of Israel connected to the manna. They were supposed to trust God that He will give them twice as much on the sixth day of the week and that food won’t be spoiled on the seventh day Sabbath. After repeating that 40 years in the wilderness and understanding that God is the one who provides for them they were to trust Him even more and keep the Sabbatical year once they possessed the land. In that sense practicing faith in God every weekly Sabbath was to enable them to trust Him enough to keep yearly Sabbath. Even though there is a spiritual side of Sabbath there is also this tangible aspect when you have to CEASE (that is the meaning of the word shabbath H7673) from your works and depend on God to take care of you. You need to show that you TRUST God completely and that is a sign.
Also, if you compare all the commandments in the Decalogue, you will see that Fourth Commandments differs from others in a sense that there is nothing logical about it to a natural man. Even non believers can understand importance of not stealing, killing or desiring the property of someone else. Even not bowing to idols or respecting the name of God you claim to worship seems logical to most people. But taking the one day out of seven that has nothing visibly different about it and not working on it has no moral value in itself. That is why obeying the Fourth Commandment is very good test whether you really serve God with all your heart. It is actually very similar to the first commandment given to Adam and Eve in the garden. God has commanded the first couple to eat from all the trees in the garden (just like He has commanded man to work six days), and to abstain from eating from only one tree (just like man is to stop working on the seventh day). This tree was not poisoned, or drastically different from any other. It was good and desirable, but it was there to remind them that God is the Creator and one who has given them everything. Revelation is clear that we are moving again towards the Eden and that before we get to the Tree of Life we will have to come again before the Tree of Knowledge Good and Evil Rev 13:17. If you are not going to be able to buy or sell, you will have to TRUST God for your life. (Buying and selling is connected to Sabbath in Neh 10:31). We better start practicing now.
Eliyahu Moshiach,
Be careful that you are not just as prideful as the Christians and Messianics that you accuse. The Torah certainly calls Shabbat a holy convocation day. You might want to look those words up.
Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
A Kadosh Mikrah certainly is a meeting day for reading the scripture in a group setting.
Not cooking is not the only thing that Sabbath keeping is. Not starting a fire is not the only thing that it is either. Just be careful.
And for the record, those that do not accept Y’shua as their Messiah are not actually worshiping YHWH though they may be attempting to do so. Those that do not come to YHWH in Y’shua’s name are not worshiping in Spirit and truth. He is the only way to the Father. Being religiously or ethnically Jewish is not the criteria for worshiping correctly. Also, claiming faith in “Jesus” or even “Y’shua” is not worth much if we are not attempting to live by every word of YHWH. The ones that endure till the end are those that keep the commandments of YHWH and have faith in Y’shua.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Shalom
Bo,
A lot of people agree with you on the term
מִקְרָאֵי קֹדֶשׁ Mikrei Kodesh –
that it means a meeting day. I am not convinced yet. To me it means the naming or calling of Shabbat and the Festivals as separated days – which is what holy means – separated.
I see no where in the Torah a commandment to read the Torah in a year’s time or three year’s time at a sinagog or church service.
It is cool to do so but nowhere commanded.
The term mikra kodesh or mikrei kodesh מִקְרָאֵי קֹדֶשׁ is the closest argument to that or for that.
I thank you for your kind rebuke, I welcome it anytime.
By the way the rabbis agree with you and disagree with me on this one – that the reading of the Torah every year was initiated by Moses.
Eliyahu Moshiach,
I do not think that Moses commanded reading the Torah through in a year or three. I have done both with my family and we have benefited greatly.
04744 מקרא miqra’ mik-raw’
from 07121; n m;
AV-convocation 19, assemblies 2, calling 1, reading 1; 23
1) convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together
1a) convocation, sacred assembly
1b) convoking
1c) reading
It just seems that the word mikra has to do with gathering to read scripture or to hear it read. The holy part of “holy convocation” does indeed mean to be set apart and one way that it is set apart is to gather purposely to hear scripture. Not that we cannot do that every day, but it does seem to be a requirement for Shabbat and the moedim.
Shalom
Bo,
To me “Mikra Kodesh” does not mean what Strong’s dictionary is saying.
I am just trying to be honest.
Especially in the context. Mikra Kodesh to me means “the naming or rememberance of separating the day”.
If it means as you imply than that would be a requirement or law to assemble together to read the Torah and Tanach on those days. This would be every Shabat, the first and last day of Pesach, the day of Shavuot, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, the first day of Succot and the eighth day. And that is it.
That means it is law to meet and read.
I just do not see it with that interpretation. I see “Mikra Kodesh” as announcing or remembering or calling this day Holy with action and deed.
The Rosh Chodesh is like this too, you declare the new month by the signs in the sky, after declaring it, then it is.
I guess I just see things differently and I have no agenda to see it different than Strong’s but I just do.
Ask Dr Brown if it is anywhere in the Torah or Tanach that we are ordered to meet on the moedim and Shabats of YHWH. I do not know of any such verse.
And every time it uses the term “mikra kodesh” is says after words to not do any work on this day. But it never says to have meetings nor Bible readings. It just says do not work.
שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן מִקְרָא קֹדֶשׁ כָּל מְלָאכָה לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ
Bo,
מוֹעֲדֵי יְהֹוָה אֲשֶׁר תִּקְרְאוּ אֹתָם מִקְרָאֵי קֹדֶשׁ אֵלֶּה הֵם מוֹעֲדָי
So it says, “Moedei YHWH asher tikru otam mikra kodesh. Ele hem moedai.
tikru and mikra are from the same root. Tikru means you will name or call.
tikru otam mikra kodesh, to me means you will call, name or designate them – Mikrei kodesh – holy designations.
Meaning, the pronouncement in lips and actions at the holiness of this day. Then it says not to do work on this day.
כָּל מְלָאכָה לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ
Eliyahu Moshiach,
I will have to do some investigation about mikra then. My son teaches Hebrew and he has a lot of Hebrew dictionaries and such. Maybe Strong’s is off on this word…it is on a few others. I’ll get back to you.
Shalom
I have fellowship with many brands of believers in Jesus Christ, including many Seventh day Adventists. Among these are legalists and those others who follow their theology with conviction of personal conviction or meaning. I find many brands too of those Messianics and others who insist that the commandment to observe on the seventh day sabbath was not revoked or cancelled…the Apostle Paul’s views seem to uphold observance “unto the Lord”, rather than for the approval of anyone insisting on this or that to win the approval of God. I enjoy practicing worship on Shabatt, or on the Lord’s Day, or every day for that matter.
Does Zondervan publish other 7th Day Adventists besides Ben Carson? Reading his books, there is not a dietary or sabbath day affirmation, but an affirmation of all Christ related faith and its importance in US History, as to God blessing the Nation.
When it comes down to it, there will be two sides at the end of time. Those who worship God, and those who align with Satan and reject God. It will all come down to who you choose to worship. For every truth of God Satan has a counterfeit. The Sabbath is the Day God wants us to come worship and commune with him. God made the Sabbath, Jesus kept it and it will be kept for eternity. God bless everyone.