Israel in Turmoil; More Thoughts on the Muhammad Cartoon Contest; and Your Calls

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Dr. Brown talks about the latest, nation-shaking events in Israel, responds to some comments to his article on the Muhammad Cartoon Contest, and takes your Jewish-related calls and questions. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I will absolutely defend people’s rights to speak freely and be offensive, but I will not unnecessarily offend.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God is at work among the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but it’s critical that we have more laborers, that we have more funding, and that we have more wineskins to make disciples.

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Other Resources:

Dr. James White Is Guest Host!

Some Errors in Hyper-Grace Theology

Would You Go to a Gay “Wedding”? And Other Cultural Questions

50 Comments
  1. Isn’t it something how the Obama administration is out to make a nuclear deal with Iran?

    If the public were to be asked if they thought that the US should be entering into nuclear deals with any nation that has repeatedly talked about wiping one of it’s neighbors off the map, I should think the overwhelming answer to that question would be a firm, solid, and simple “NO.”

    Are we not called of God to love our neighbor as ourselves?, and since we live in this one world together with Israel, who has made it clear to us that any deal with Iran about nuclear power would not be in their best interest because of the repeated threats made, what would walking in love toward our neighbor be like in this kind of situation?

    It should be so simple to simply say, “No deals on nuclear with any government who repeatedly threatens it’s neighbors, verbally or otherwise.”

    I believe that would be something that should come out of walking in love in this world.

    There are many in the US government that need to return to God and the simple goodness of his word.

    It really is time for change.

  2. Yehuda,

    As you know, I’m unable to debate issues here online, but the evidence is overwhelming and clear in terms of the Messianic imagery put forth in the Tanakh: If the Messiah is not a priestly King, he cannot be the Messiah. Traditional Judaism has sadly missed this; Yeshua fulfills it.

  3. Yehuda,

    You wrote:
    “There is no mention of a Melchizedek priesthood accounting for both the kingship of David and the priesthood of Levi! Those are all fabrications in the NT that are not found in Tanach!”

    According to the Tanach, only the Levitical priesthood can offer sacrifices and only at the tabernacle/temple. But we find men like Gideon, Manoah, Samuel, David, and Elijah offering sacrifices unto YHWH while not at the door of the tabernacle and the sacrifice was accepted by YHWH. None of these were Levites, but they acted as priests.

    Psalm 109
    1 «A Psalm of David.» The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
    3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
    4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

    David speaks of himself and prophetically of Messiah. A different priesthood was in effect at the same time as the Levitcal one. It predated the Levitical and continues to this day while the levitical is in hibernation. It will return and the sons of Zadok will perform sacrifices…and Messiah will still be Melchizedek, sitting on the throne of David.

    The book of Hebrews is correct and the book of Isaiah is explicit that Messiah is YHWH in human flesh. So YHWH in the flesh is the ultimate king and priest and also the sacrifice and thus our Savior.

    Shalom

  4. Bo,I am confused why you come to the conclusion that the Melchizedek priesthood relates exclusively to jesus…I am not convinced that it refers to jesus at all…But I have no problem with it having a Messianic connotation to it as well.

    You will find in the Talmud that Abraham, King David, and even the Messiah are called as being fulfillments of this Psalm. (You said Psalms 109 but you meant Psalms 110.) One of the most striking commonalities between King David and Abraham is that they both “crushed kings” with the help of Hashem. This directly correlates with Psalms 110:5, which explicitly states this:

    Psalms 110:5. The Lord, on your right hand, **has crushed kings** on the day of His wrath.

    Now Bo, during jesus’s lifetime, did jesus “crush kings”? Was he successful in defeating his enemies? Were his enemies “made a footstool at his feet”? Clearly not! Your jesus was killed and failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies outlined in the Tanach. As it stands, jesus has fulfilled none of Psalms 110 in any tangible sense. You can argue that he will fulfill it in his supposed “second coming,” but to claim that jesus has fulfilled any of this Psalm would be completely baseless as it stands…

    Another oddity about your understanding about this “Melchizedek priesthood” is that you believe that jesus’s bloodshed “atoned for the sins of the world.” Where in the Tanach does it state that the Melchizedek priesthood achieves atonement via the blood sacrifice? The only priesthood that was given this divine instruction that I know of was the Levitical priesthood…If you could find a passage in the Tanach which states that the “Melchizedek priesthood” achieves atonement via “blood sacrifice,” then maybe your position would make a little more sense. But as it stands, you appear to be baselessly asserting that this Melchizedek priesthood has “superior atoning power” in comparison to the Levitical priesthood, when there is nothing in the Tanach that indicates that the Melchizedek priesthood deals with blood atonement at all! I hope you will consider these concerns.

    Shalom!

  5. Yehuda,

    Oops. Psalm 110 it is.

    Someone is a “priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” David is dead. So is Abraham. If Y’shua is not that priest, then no one can be or will be. He is the only candidate that came during the timing of Daniel’s prophesy being fulfilled. There is precedent in the Tanach for a dual coming if Messiah just like there is a dual appearance of Elijah.

    A Messiah that comes the first time to establish everlasting righteousness and as the suffering servant and as the one that poured out His soul unto death in payment for our sins as Messiah ben Joseph…and the same Messiah that comes the second time to execute judgment upon YHWH’s enemies and to rule on the throne as Messiah ben David is attested to in the Prophets…and in the Apostolic writings.

    If you have read my comments on this blog for any length of time, you will see that I have posted very many times concerning Y’shua being a Messiah that upheld YHWH’s Torah and not a “jesus,” as you call Him, that abrogated Torah. These things I have proven from the Apostolic writings and the Tanach. If you have a prejudice against the one that is written about in the Gospels because you think that He came and subverted Moses, you have not been told the truth about Him. He is the only one that came according to the timing of Daniel. If He is not Messiah, there is no Messiah.

    And if there is no blood atonement via Y’shua Messiah being that He is both the Melchizedek high priest and the sinless sacrifice, then your sins go unatoned for via the Levitical system that has not operated since 40 years after Y’shua’s atoning death. And isn’t it interesting that the Talmud indicates that miraculous signs happened from the time of Y’shua’s death till the destruction of the Temple 40 (symbolic of judgment) years later.

    “We read in the Jerusalem Talmud:

    “Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open” (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]

    A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:

    “Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

    What are these passages talking about? Since both Talmuds recount the same information, this indicates the knowledge of these events was accepted by the widespread Jewish community.”- http://www3.telus.net/public/kstam/en/temple/details/evidence.htm

    Shalom

  6. Hello Yehuda,

    I think you have great questions when you call Mike and enjoy your dialogues with him. But I wanted to make one request, and feel free to let me know if you cannot grant me this request and your reasoning.

    The request is that you capitalize His name when using it (Jesus / Yeshua). If you have reasons for not doing so, I can understand that. I just want to personally ask you to capitalize His name if you feel that to be something you can afford me, and Him.

    Thank you Yehuda,

  7. Dear reader,

    Around 1:29:00 the discussion turns to unbelievers divorcing their believing spouses. It is put forth that, in such a case, a believer can be remarried without sinning. There are many reasons why this cannot be the case. Let’s look into this a little.

    1 Corinthians 7
    12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
    13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.
    14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
    15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
    16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

    First, Paul is not telling us what YHWH or Messiah are allowing. He is speaking his opinion.

    Second, He says that the believer is not a slave, not that they may be remarried. And Paul does finalize his discussion with this:

    39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

    So it would seem that Paul allows for the separation if it is unavoidable and suggests that we live peacefully with what the unbeliever wants instead of fighting them or trying to force them to stay with us. But he in no way says that we may remarry in this instance.

    Third, Messiah and YHWH through Moses say very specifically that there is only one reason that there can be a divorce and a subsequent remarriage that is not actually adultery. The unbeliever leaving is not that reason. Paul cannot be contradicting this, or he would be disqualifying himself as an apostle.

    Fourth, Paul tells us:

    10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
    11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

    Just because a person is married to an unbeliever does not undo what “the Lord” commands. It does not allow us to put asunder what YHWH has joined. So the wife is not to leave and the Husband is not to divorce his wife. The wife must remain single or be reconciled to her husband. Verses 12 -16 are not negating what YHWH commands. They are explaining that we cannot expect unbelievers to adhere to YHWH’s commands and that we are not supposed to try to force them to do so. Just because an unbeliever refuses to keep YHWH’s commandments does not allow a believer to break them.

    Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Paul, in the chapter before he teaches about marriage, says that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He equates remarriage while the first husband is living to adultery in Romans. There is good reason, given the context, to believe that Paul is trying to keep us from becoming adulterers and adulteresses and not trying to excuse us from obeying YHWH.

    Shalom

  8. I listened in around 1:29:00 and didn’t hear any discussion of marriage. Seemed to be a discussion on “if you bless Israel, you will be blessed”.

    Due to the content of the post, I think you may have meant to post this over on the other topic about adultery, fornication, etc. Unless i missed it in this broadcast.

  9. Isis in Virginia and Maryland… Hmm… not anywhere near Langley, I suppose, though, right?

  10. Bo wrote: “According to the Tanach, only the Levitical priesthood can offer sacrifices and only at the tabernacle/temple. But we find men like Gideon, Manoah, Samuel, David, and Elijah offering sacrifices unto YHWH”

    The first three are pre-temple and as mentioned in 1 King 3, a common occurrence.

    Elijah was clearly a special condition allowed by G-d for a specific reason, dealing with a false god.

    David, was first anointed King, before performing any priestly functions on behalf of the people. Same for Hezekiah, who’s blood free prayers atoned for the people.

    Jesus on the other hand, was not only not from a priestly tribe, he was never anointed as King and did not sit on the throne of David. Therefore he could not serve any priestly function. One must become King FIRST prior to performing such a function.

    So he failed to perform as priest because he was not King. And one who does serve as a legitimate priest first, cannot be a King later due to not being of the tribe of Judah, in the line of David and Solomon.

    Jesus is not messiah. Was not a priest. Was never King, therefore, not priestly either.

  11. Blasatar,

    It matters not if that the Temple was not in place. The rules are the same for the tabernacle.

    Leviticus 17
    3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
    4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people…
    8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
    9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

    Samuel was after the Levitical priesthood and offered offerings not at the door of the tabernacle. He was not anointed king. He was not of the tribe of Levi. We can say the same of the other people that I mentioned.

    1 Samuel 13
    8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.
    9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.
    10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.
    11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
    12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
    13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

    Saul was king and got in trouble for offering a sacrifice. Elijah was no more a special case than David, Samuel and the others. And Messiah is absolutely a special case just as the Tanach teaches.

    2 Chronicles 30
    18 For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one
    19 That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.
    20 And the LORD hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people.

    Hezekiah did not offer a bloodless offering. He prayed and the people were healed. Nothing is said about it atoning for sin. We find Abraham also praying for healing.

    You have no scripture that says that someone must be king before he offers an offering. Many did such and were not kings. Manoah does not even seem to have been anointed like the others that I listed.

    Daniel 9
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    According to Daniel the Messiah’s being anointed and bringing in everlasting righteousness comes before the temple is destroyed. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

    Who do you offer as a candidate for Messiah since the prophesied time of his coming had to be at the time of Y’shua of Nazareth? There can be no Messiah if He did not come at the timing of Daniel’s prophecy.

    Shalom

  12. Bo Wrote: “It matters not if that the Temple was not in place. The rules are the same for the tabernacle.”

    Not so. During the time of the Judges, certain sacrifices on the High Places were permitted. And not just by the Priests.

    Samuel was in fact a Levite.

    Saul did not wait for Samuel to return and he was not asked to Sacrifice. Samuel was to perform those sacrifices.

    Certainly after the establishment of the Davidic Kingship, Priests were Priests and King were Kings. The Kings did perform certain priestly functions when they were required. David was told to sacrifice. It was not an ongoing function of his office.

    Hezekiah’s priestly function involved praying for the PARDON of the transgressions of the people. So, yes, it was an atonement. And G-d pardoned their sin through healing.

    Fact is, Torah post Sinai and Tanakh’s entire structure of leadership is based upon having NO Priest-Kings. Just Kings by virtue of their office and anointing would occasionally perform a priestly type task.

    Moses did not chose Aaron the priest to lead the people as a prototype priest-king, he chose Joshua a non-priest.

    Later in the era of Kings, we see that is still the case. Judah and the line of David are to be Kings. Not the Priests.

    And in the Messianic era to come. A Davidic King and Ezekiel tells us of the restored priesthood (44). The purified Levites will offer sacrifices (Mal 3) “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.”

    Did Jesus purify the Levites? No he did not. Yet the NT calls Jesus a “High Priest”. High Priests are not Kings! And no, the Davidic line does not revert back to a pre-torah condition such as Melchizedek..who was a king-priest.

    So no, Jesus could not be a Priest who later becomes King. And since he was never anointed King, he was not capable of priestly type functions either, not being a Levite.

    Dan 9:24 has nothing to do with Jesus. It is not messianic. The 6 tasks are for who to do?

    “have been decreed for your PEOPLE and your holy city”

    The Jewish people. Not messiah.

    The previous cases of Gideon, Manoah were requests by G-d, via the angel of the LORD.

    Elijah was certainly a one-off request by G-d to show the Baalists who was really G-d.

  13. Blasatar,

    All you are saying when you say that YHWH allowed sacrifices by those other than Levites and in places other than the door of YHWH’s house is that there is another priesthood that exists along side the Levitical. It is the Melchizedek order.

    No, pardon does not require atonement. Hezekiah offered no atonement. Prayer is not an atonement. It pays for nothing. An entreaty for forgiveness/healing is not an atonement.

    Any offering to YHWH had to be at the door of the temple/tabernacle according to Torah. Samuel was going against this statute. Though he was a Levite, he was also a prophet and a judge and of the order of Melchizedek else he cannot offer for the people other than according to the Levitical instructions.

    You conveniently did not quote this:

    “26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself”

    What everlasting righteousness did the people bring in? Who, other than Messiah, is the most holy?

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Messiah was anointed by YHWH and was cut off (killed) for the people. It was He who brought in everlasting righteousness. It was He who paid the price for iniquity. The prophecy has been sealed. No one can be Messiah after the 7 and 62 weeks have expired. They have been expired for almost 2000 years. Y’shua of Nazareth is the only one that was born at the right time in the right place and died at the right time and place.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary…

    Messiah has to come before the 2nd temple was destroyed…and He did.

    Shabbat Shalom

  14. Blasatar,

    You wrote:
    “Dan 9:24 has nothing to do with Jesus. It is not messianic. The 6 tasks are for who to do?

    “have been decreed for your PEOPLE and your holy city””

    It was not for the people to do. It is what was going to happen to the people and the holy city. These are the things that were going to happen by the end of the prophecy. And Messiah was to come at a precise time…at the culmination of the 62 weeks. We all know that this works out to the time of Y’shua.

    Daniel 9
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    The city and sanctuary were destroyed after Messiah was cut off/killed. There is no other reasonable way to understand Verse 26.

    Shalom

  15. Bo Wrote “All you are saying when you say that YHWH allowed sacrifices by those other than Levites and in places other than the door of YHWH’s house is that there is another priesthood that exists along side the Levitical. It is the Melchizedek order.”

    No that is not what I’m saying..there is no such thing as “another” priesthood. Melchizedek was merely a forerunner to the Levital and ended.

    Bo Wrote: “No, pardon does not require atonement. Hezekiah offered no atonement.

    ? They sinned. Hezekiah prayed. G-d heard. Their sins were forgiven (pardoned) and they were healed. End of story.

    Again. Was Jesus a Levite? A Cohen? No…The NT claims he was of Judah. So any priestly function by Jesus was of no use because he did not take the throne of David and rule the people. David and the other Kings ONLY did priestly functions AFTER sitting on the throne…NOT before.

    Bo Wrote: “24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,”….It was not for the people to do.

    Of course it was for the people to do! It is plainly in the text. And if Jesus had accomplished those tasks (he clearly didnt) the Temple would not have been destroyed. Think about it. But sacrifices continued on a spiritually declining basis for 40 some-odd more years because Jesus didnt purify the Levites. He didnt end the sins of the people. He didnt anoint the holy place.

    The cut-off messiah has nothing to do with Jesus. That is old worn out ground. You need to deal with the fact the text says plainly FOR YOUR PEOPLE. It is not messianic at all. So forget about verse 26 and the counting of weeks. Jesus doesnt pass the verse 24 test, so there is zero reason to procede to verse 26.

    If Jesus was a cut-off anything it was for being a false prophet.

    shalom

  16. Blasatar,

    Not “old worn out ground,’ but the only possible Messiah. No one else was cut off at the end of the 62 weeks. Y’shua is the only candidate.

    “Determined upon a people and a city” does not mean that the people or the city do anything.

    You wrote:
    “Of course it was for the people to do! It is plainly in the text. And if Jesus had accomplished those tasks (he clearly didnt) the Temple would not have been destroyed. Think about it. But sacrifices continued on a spiritually declining basis for 40 some-odd more years because Jesus didnt purify the Levites. He didnt end the sins of the people. He didnt anoint the holy place.”

    Not plainly in the text at all. There is nothing in the text about Messiah having to accomplish those tasks to keep the temple from being destroyed. The temple was going to be destroyed no matter what…after Messiah dies. Y’shua Messiah is the most holy that was anointed by YHWH for the task of dying for the people…and taking away their sins. The sacrifices continued on a spiritually declining basis because, at least in part, the Jewish leaders refused to recognize Messiah when He came. Messiah Y’shua was not supposed to purify the Levites.

    You have very obviously been not answering the question. Messiah had to come exactly at the end of the 62 weeks and before the destruction of the temple. Who is the Messiah if it is not Y’shua? You have no answer…unless you recognize the only one that it can possibly be.

    It comes down to this. If the people were supposed to accomplish those tasks in order for Messiah to come, then they will get no Messiah for they did not accomplish the tasks in the given amount of time and Messiah has to come before the temple is destroyed. It is now too late for Him to come. The prophecy is not an if then prophecy. It is matter of fact timing. You just refuse to deal with it.

    Shalom

  17. BO- You need to read the text more carefully. Here is how Rabbi Shulman views Brown (and your) position.

    Dr Brown states clearly what is his (and the Christian) view of this verse (emphasis mine). He states: “Daniel 9:24 sums, up the main events to be accomplished during the period of the seventy weeks of years.” [2] On the same page in his summary he makes his main point: “Since Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of events that must be fulfilled before the destruction of the Second Temple (which took place in 70 CE), the question that must be asked is this: If Jesus did not fulfill Daniel 9:24, who did?”

    He (Brown) is making here two claims:
    These six things must be accomplished by an individual.
    They must occur before the end of the 490 year period.

    However the Jewish view is different. The majority view, as I discuss in part 2 of my article, is that this period was a test, either they will accomplish these 6 points or the temple will be destroyed. This is similar to the first entrance to the land of Israel. At that time G-d tells the Jewish people to keep his laws, and if not they will go into exile. Here they are told to do these 6 things or else the temple will be destroyed and they will go into exile. The proof that these 6 were not fulfilled is that the temple was destroyed. It also applies exclusively to the People of Israel, and not to the world, or an individual[3]. The people were to accomplish the 6 things.

    Dr Brown’s contention that it refers to an individual is clearly NOT there in the text. As the KJV says: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city.” This is something regarding the people of Israel and the city of Jerusalem exclusively. In fact, interestingly, if it were an individual he/she would have done this ONLY for the people of Israel, as this applies only to them. So we must conclude that these 6 things need to be accomplished by the people of Israel and not something one individual does. One of his key points has been show false.

    Brown writes: ““Since the prophesied events had to take place before the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, and since the most natural interpretation of these events points to Yeshua’s atoning death, it is only logical to begin with him and ask to what extent he fulfilled each of the six divine promises in Daniel 9:24.”

    But that is entirely circular reasoning. Asserting what you are trying to prove.

    The above statement by Dr. Brown shows that either he has not fully understood the objection, or he has no answer to it. Here is one of the many examples in his books, of his use of an argument by assertion. He accepts it as a given premise that these two points are to be ignored, asserting their opposite as being the truth without proof. In fact, he has IGNORED the depth of the problem and the real objection and only addressed the issue he wants to, leaving the objection in place. Were it not to apply it an individual, or were these things not required to be fulfilled before 70 CE, he would not be able to point to Jesus in Daniel 9:24. It is as simple as that.

    Now back to my personal view. 70 weeks, 490 years were given to the JEWISH PEOPLE as it says in the text…to do what? to finish the 6 tasks. And since they didnt, the temple was destoyed and they were again forced into exile.

    Jesus, he had actually were THE messiah, would had lead the Jewish people into torah observance. As per Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31. And he would have purifed the Levites, even Brown says that Malachi 3:1-4 was somehow done when Jesus lived.

    So no, Dan 9 has nothing to do with Jesus. Dan 9:24 is a the deal killer.

    If your assertion if not him, no one, is absurd. If true, then the church would have been granted Jersusalem from that moment on. The church would have not have ruled and reigned from the Vatican but Jerusalem. But the church has NEVER been granted Jerusalem or Israel. And there certainly would have been no need for the Jews to return and rebuild Israel. Why would they? Jesus performed the 6 tasks and completed G-ds salvation program right?

    No…Dan 9:24 isnt Jesus, it was a test for the Jewish people, which they failed, resulting in the destruction of the temple.

  18. Bo wrote: “It comes down to this. If the people were supposed to accomplish those tasks in order for Messiah to come, then they will get no Messiah ”

    Says who? where in Tanakh? Clearly that is a false statement because the messianic events have not even happened yet. This is just a hollow assertion of the church. G-d’s whole paradigm is about redeeming the Jewish people. And then…what is left of the gentile nations.

    Bo wrote: ” Messiah has to come before the temple is destroyed. It is now too late for Him to come.”

    Says who? where in Tanakh? There is zero basis for this assertion. Again, since no Davidic messianic events have even occurred yet, that is clearly false.

    The Jewish people are shown doing and obeying the mosaic law in the messianic era. Of course there will be a messiah and it cant be the Nazarene, who died as a false prophet, false messiah.

  19. Blasater,

    Says who? Says Daniel!

    What makes Y’shua of Nazareth a false prophet? Nothing! He upheld Torah and taught us to keep it.

    Shalom

  20. Blasater,

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Daniel makes a direct statement. It happened. It was fulfilled. Messiah died not for Himself and then the temple was destroyed. History…what do they teach children in school these days?

    Shalom

  21. Lets quickly review what we have covered so far.

    Brown’s assertion that Jesus was a Davidic Priest-King has been shown false, since David first had to be anointed to the throne before any priestly duties could be performed on behalf of klal Yisrael. Jesus was never anointed to the throne of David, therefore, not being a Levite, was not capable of any priestly duties whatsoever.

    Bo’s response? Nothing.

    Brown’s assertion that Dan 9:24 was for an individual to perform has been shown to be false. The pshat of the text is plainly a task-test for the Jewish people to perform. The 6 tasks were not accomplished by the Jewish people and the temple was destroyed.

    Bo’s response? Nothing.

    Now Bo asserts that Daniel said that if the Jewish people did not accept Jesus, they would be denied any messiah whatsoever.

    Bo’s proof? Nothing. Just the assertion that Daniel said it. What verse please?

    Bo wrote: ” Messiah be cut off, but not for himself….but it doesnt say that in the text…

    Actually the NASB has it better.”after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,”

    It has nothing to do with Jesus, it has to do with the high priest being cutoff before the 2nd temple was destroyed. There are good messiahs throughout history and bad messiahs.

    Jesus never qualified to be a messiah by virtue of not being anointed by the temple oil, by a prophet or priest, to any office whatsoever. On the contrary, he spent a lot of his time at the temple running for cover and a place to hide. Imagine that for a moment, “god” in the flesh, running and hiding out in his own temple. I can think of no narrative more offensive. G-d forbid.

    I mentioned he was a false prophet. He said: “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

    Now Brown and the church say that this is the transfiguration. But that is not possible.

    A) The transfiguration was only 6 days later. Hardly a significant passage of time that would involve some of them dying,
    B) Who died during those 6 days? None of the disciples died during those 6 days,
    C) No “kingdom” had come with power. Just a vision of Elijah, Moses and Jesus standing there. No Kingdom at all. No “power” either. In fact, Peter equates the three with equal status. He wants to build 3 tabernacles, one for each.

    That is one example of false prophecy. There are others.

    Bo wrote:” He upheld Torah and taught us to keep it.”

    He did? Then why does the church not keep it? Dr Brown does not keep it. He thinks it is voluntary.

    Shalom

  22. Blasater,

    Only three of the disciples were on the mount of transfiguration…thus only some of the disciples saw the kingdom come in power before they died. Y’shua did not say some of them would die before any of them saw the kingdom come in power. The prophecy was true…and fulfilled. You impose an absurd stipulation upon the obvious meaning.

    Messiah’s teaching is this:

    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    It makes no difference if those that call themselves “Christians” believe something different…because it is obvious what Y’shua taught.

    You have shown nothing that invalidates Y’shua as Messiah or that would indicate that He is a false prophet. He is still the only candidate that was at the right place at the prophesied time according to Daniel. No one else died, but not for himself, before the temple was destroyed.

    Daniel 9
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    You wrote:
    “Jesus never qualified to be a messiah by virtue of not being anointed by the temple oil, by a prophet or priest, to any office whatsoever. On the contrary, he spent a lot of his time at the temple running for cover and a place to hide. Imagine that for a moment, “god” in the flesh, running and hiding out in his own temple. I can think of no narrative more offensive. G-d forbid.”

    You use unjust weights and measures. Who anointed Elijah, Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or Daniel? Where is the oil?

    YHWH anointed Y’shua.

    Luke 4
    16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.
    17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

    The Gospels do not show Y’shua “running for cover and a place to hide.” They show the Jewish leaders afraid to confront Him publicly or to have a fair trial during the day.

    Lu 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
    46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
    47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,
    48 And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

    Lu 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
    20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.

    Lu 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people…
    52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
    53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

    Messiah ben Joseph according to your rabbis:

    Rabbi Abraham ben Ezra (12th century): “All the heathen shall look to me to see what I shall do to those who pierced Messiah, the son of Joseph.”

    Rabbi Moshe el Sheikh, chief rabbi of Safed: “I will do yet a third thing, and that is, that ‘they shall look unto me,’ for they shall lift up their eyes unto me in perfect repentance, when they see Him whom they pierced, that is Messiah, the Son of Joseph; for our Rabbis, of blessed memory, have said that He will take upon Himself all the guilt of Israel, and shall then be slain in the war to make an atonement in such manner that it shall be accounted as if Israel had pierced Him, for on account of their sin He has died; and, therefore, in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement, they will repent and look to the blessed One, saying, that there is none beside Him to forgive those that mourn on account of Him who died for their sin: this is the meaning of ‘They shall look upon me.'”

    Shalom

  23. Blasater, Remember most if not all of us are not replacement theologist. The vatican is not our church, the pope is not NOT!! our pappa. Our roots are in the Jewish faith, and we look towards the day that all is restored. I personally think that salvation is given to the Jewish people, that is unpopular view on this board.. I do not have it puzzled out completely yet, but could put a good arguement together for that view.

  24. Hey folks,

    Just a quick note to let you know we’ve had to block Brian Lasater elsewhere. He’s a counter-missionary who, at this point, has demonstrated that he is not here to seek the truth but rather to argue his points (as is self-evident when you read his posts). Let’s pray for him, that the Lord would grant him repentance and salvation, and for now, we’ll continue to allow him to post as long as he doesn’t violate our guidelines. Thank God for Yeshua, our Priestly Messiah!

  25. I will pray for him tonight, and would invite him to ask the G_d of Israel some of his questions. Sincerely pray Mr. Alasater the way you pray to the one true G_d. You will not fail in getting a clear answer. What is the risk in asking this question, if it is untrue you will clearly understand that, call in with your result.

  26. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “Actually the NASB has it better.”after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,”

    It has nothing to do with Jesus, it has to do with the high priest being cutoff before the 2nd temple was destroyed. There are good messiahs throughout history and bad messiahs.”

    What silliness. Do you expect us to believe such a notion? What high priest died exactly at the end of the 62 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy? How did He die for the people…not for himself? Who, during his time, thought that he was messiah? Where are his followers today? How did he bring in everlasting righteousness? Are you sure that he was a “good messiah”…if he was a messiah at all?

    Shalom

  27. I appreciate that Lasater is here, I suscribe to root-source.com which is about Root Source enables and encourages dialogue and relationships between Christians and Jews, and empowers Christians to learn like Jews have been learning for centuries. Our Israeli Jewish teachers know you are a Christian, and respect your identity and your faith. Root Source gives you access to world-class Jewish biblical teaching online, helping you learn deeper and reach higher in your Christian faith, with the opportunity to ask any question openly.

    Blasater, if Yeshua is not the messiah I need to know that, you need to pull all of out of this adulterous religion. Why would you let us worship something that is false? If he is the Messiah you need to know that as well, why would we not share the greatest thing G_d has ever done for man? This is the most important question we could put to G_d. We ask G-d to guide us for a marriage partner don’t we? Certainly this question is PARAMOUNT.

  28. Bo Wrote: “Only three of the disciples were on the mount of transfiguration…thus only some of the disciples saw the kingdom come in power before they died”

    The prohetic claim in the NT is before the transfiguration, not at the transfiguration. Dr Brown and most apologists claim the transfiguration was the proof. I have shown you why it was not a proof. Furthermore, the reason why they cite the transfiguration is because there is no other event in the NT where it could even be close to a fulfillment. Jesus simply did not arrive with a kingdom and power…ever.

    Bo wrote: “The Gospels do not show Y’shua “running for cover and a place to hide.” ”

    Sure they do. ” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.”

    Imagine that….G-d forbid…

    Bo wrote” Messiah, the son of Joseph”

    Not sure why you brought that up. But messiah ben Yosef is prophesied to be killed in battle. Zech 12 and that will make the Jewish people mourn for this beloved military commander and return (tshuva) just as they did when Josiah was pierced through. 2 Chronicles 35:20-24.

    Jesus was never a military commander as is alluded to in Zech 12 nor is Jesus ever called ben Yosef…just ben David. And ben David is never prophesied to be killed.

    Bo wrote: “What silliness. Do you expect us to believe such a notion? (regarding the cutoff messiah being the high priest)

    Bo, you are looking at this through the eyes of the NT. Remember, there have been hundreds of messiahs…anointed ones. You are assuming that Daniels messiah is a special, NT type messiah. And that is not the case. The first messiah of Daniel is Cyrus, a good messiah…not even a Jew! The second messiah is believed to be the High Priest or King Agrippa, who were bad messiahs.

    Being cutoff does not automatically mean killed. It often times is a reference to being removed from the people or exiled. Do a word study on cutoff.

    And remember Saul was initially a good messiah and ended up a bad messiah. Daniel however is merely speaking of anointed ones, one good, one bad, not “The Messiah” as in ben David.

  29. Jon wrote “The vatican is not our church, the pope is not NOT!! our pappa”

    Hi Jon, yes I realize that messianic Christians hold that view. But fact is, the Vatican was the only church for the vast majority of Christian history. And still today, the RCC is a huge percentage of Christendom. Point being, G-d did not allow the church possession of Jerusalem or Israel for more than a moment. He allowed the sons of Ishmael, who are monotheists and practice circumcision to hold the land during the exile of the Jewish people.

    Jon wrote: “Blasater, if Yeshua is not the messiah I need to know that, you need to pull all of out of this adulterous religion. Why would you let us worship something that is false?”

    Jon, I am not a Christian, I am Jewish. And yes the church should return to a pure worship of Hashem and Him only. One point I like to make with my Christian friends is this.

    Deut 30 says:”11 “For this commandment (to keep Torah) which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’

    No think about that for a moment. The church teaches that Jesus was in heaven the entire time. Yet G-d says there was nothing in heaven to bring down to earth to facilitate the observance of the commandments. Nothing.

    So how can it be, that Jesus was withheld for 1500 years after G-d said there was nothing more we needed? The NT assertion we needed Jesus to do Torah for us is a direct contradiction to Dt 30.

    Seek Hashem.

    Shalom

  30. Yes, but have you sincerely prayed for an answer to this? I actually prayed for over an hour directly for your heart to recieve what truth do you have the faith to pray this also?

  31. Jon– Thank you. Yes, I have. Getting to know Hashem, Master and Creator, on a personal level has been the greatest experience of my life. I can not even fathom devoting prayer and worship to a fellow created personage. The Holy One blessed be He has made it clear and nothing brings greater joy and fulfillment than having a connection to Him. Seek Hashem.

  32. Thank you also, know that I do hear you and take seriously your view. We are closer to the same view than you think- and we do both worship the G_d of Israel. The G_d of Israel is my G_d, and my people are your people. I have nothing but love for you.

  33. Re Bkasater comment —No think about that for a moment. The church teaches that Jesus was in heaven the entire time. Yet G-d says there was nothing in heaven to bring down to earth to facilitate the observance of the commandments. Nothing.

    What about EXODUS 24:10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

    Ok, The G_d of Israel is a him- Israel visibly sees G_d- and he raises his hand. Hand and fingers, and feet?? Chapter 34 God forgiving the Israelite Moses asks to see Gods glory. Gods reply you can not see my face- (and live) does he have a face? Is there an image of God that we can see on our level? Or is he unknowable? Read the real Kosher Jesus Michael Brown and answer this question for yourself. Explore the depths of God which is innate in you.

  34. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “One point I like to make with my Christian friends is this.

    Deut 30 says:”11 “For this commandment (to keep Torah) which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’

    No think about that for a moment. The church teaches that Jesus was in heaven the entire time. Yet G-d says there was nothing in heaven to bring down to earth to facilitate the observance of the commandments. Nothing.

    So how can it be, that Jesus was withheld for 1500 years after G-d said there was nothing more we needed? The NT assertion we needed Jesus to do Torah for us is a direct contradiction to Dt 30.”

    Actually you did not read Deuteronomy 30 closely. It says that the commandments are not in heaven and that we do not need to say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us?” The point of the passage is that YHWH’s commandments have been revealed and they are not too hard for us to understand or too hard for us to know what they are. And the passage goes on:

    De. 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

    The point being that if we have YHWH’s commandments in our mouths (meaning that we know them and can recite them) and in our hearts (Meaning that we love them), then we will not find them too hard to do.

    The New Covenant is supposed to accomplish this. The new heart that wants to obey YHWH and YHWH’s law being written upon our hearts are the same thing. The desire to do YHWH’s commandments must produce in us a desire to know what those commandments are.

    Y’shua’s blood was shed to put the New Covenant in force. Those that are under the New Covenant do not need anyone to teach them to obey YHWH’s commandments for they are motivated to learn them and keep them from the inside.

    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    So those that have been made partakers of the New Covenant have been anointed by YWHW’s Spirit and they desire to not transgress YHWH’s law. They have the hope of seeing Y’shua as He is at the resurrection and because of this hope they purify themselves via learning and then keeping YHWH’s commandments. They have real love for YHWH, His word, and their neighbors.

    1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    The new heart of love for YHWH and our neighbor is evident in our lives only when we want to do whatever YHWH has spoken.

    So Blasater, you misrepresent Deuteronomy and try to make it say something against the real followers of Y’shua, when in actuality it confirms the real followers of Y’shua and that they have become partakers of the New Covenant. I am also guessing that you did not know that Y’shua’s apostles wrote such things as I quoted above. And those things that they wrote prove that Y’shua did not teach against YHWH’s law and that He is not a false prophet.

    Shalom

  35. Blasater,

    De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

    You wrote:
    “So how can it be, that Jesus was withheld for 1500 years after G-d said there was nothing more we needed? The NT assertion we needed Jesus to do Torah for us is a direct contradiction to Dt 30.”

    You would have to take that up with Moses and Jeremiah.

    Deuteronomy does not say that there is nothing else needed. (See my post above.) It says that YHWH’s commandments are revealed and close at hand…if we have the heart to accept them and keep them.

    De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    De 9:24 Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you.

    YHWH’s law is perfect…we are not.

    Evidently, though YHWH’s commandments were right there in front of us, we still needed to be cured of rebellion. Evidently we needed a New Covenant that produces a new heart. And evidently it did come 150o years later.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    And Y’shua Messiah inaugurated the New Covenant with His shed blood. It is time for you to enter it.

    Shalom

  36. Blaster,

    Let me add one more thing about the passage in Deuteronomy 30 which you quote. It is an indictment against Judaism. For there are thousands of rules that are not in Torah that the rabbis and sages have added. In effect Judaism needs someone to “go to heaven” so to speak for you and to find out for you what supposedly YHWH’s commandments mean. Judaism needs someone to tell them all kinds of things like how to wash their hands with a special 2 handled cup else they be as unclean as if they had slept with a harlot. YHWH’s law says nothing of the sort.

    “Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sotah
    Folio 4a

    R. ‘Awira expounded sometimes in the name of R. Ammi and at other times in the name of R. Assi: Whoever eats bread without previously washing the hands is as though he had intercourse with a harlot; as it is said, For on account of a harlot, to a loaf of bread.”

    YHWH’s law says nothing of putting up a string around a town so that it all counts as one place so that burdens may be carried on Shabbat. YHWH’s law says nothing about a burden being anything more than half of an olive. All these, and a thousand more, doctrines have come from man and not Torah. The truth is that you need someone to tell you how, when, and where to keep Torah and Moses said that you shouldn’t need such.

    By adhering to man-made doctrines that are not in Torah, that add to Torah, that build a fence for Torah and that contradict Torah, you do not have the Torah in your heart, but the doctrines of men in your heart. You need to come into the New Covenant.

    And lest you think I only speak of Judaism, I would say much the same of institutional Christianity.

    Shalom

  37. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “Bo wrote: “The Gospels do not show Y’shua “running for cover and a place to hide.” ”

    Sure they do. ” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.””

    You are obviously grasping at straws. Someone walking away from an angry mob bent on killing you is not running and hiding.

    Shalom

  38. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “Bo wrote” Messiah, the son of Joseph”

    Not sure why you brought that up. But messiah ben Yosef is prophesied to be killed in battle. Zech 12 and that will make the Jewish people mourn for this beloved military commander and return (tshuva) just as they did when Josiah was pierced through. 2 Chronicles 35:20-24.

    Jesus was never a military commander as is alluded to in Zech 12 nor is Jesus ever called ben Yosef…just ben David. And ben David is never prophesied to be killed.”

    Zechariah does not say that Messiah is killed in battle. It says that the inhabitants of Jerusalem will recognize the Messiah that they pierced. It is quite informative that they will look upon “Me” (YHWH is speaking here) “whom they have pierced.” Messiah is YHWH in the Flesh.

    Ze. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Messiah ben Joseph dies for the people. Then he returns as Messiah ben David and delivers Israel and begins His 1000 year reign.

    Shalom

  39. Oops, in Post 38 I wrote: “YHWH’s law says nothing about a burden being anything more than half of an olive.”

    I was remembering incorrectly. It is actually an item that weighs more than a fig that is considered a burden by rabbis. And the Torah does not say this.

    Shalom

  40. Blasater, One arguement that you could use to put christians is a Jewish belief. There is a teaching that there will be 2000 years of choas, then 2000 years of Torah!! and 2000 years of the messianic period, finally 1000 years of the millennium. If someone holds to the belief that the Messiah came 2000 years ago ( on time and on place specific) to the finest detail, then one has to hold that we are due to the return. We are at the window of the 2000 yr period to end very soon. It will be again be specific and on time and place. We will all be wrong soon if he does not return. You will have won the arguement for there has to be a second coming on time and on Zion. I would say that you have your position mapped out and we are in check, it will be check mate if not completed in the next few years. This is the arguement that you could put forward.

  41. Jon, actually, the 6,000 year argument works for our position entirely, as I demonstrated in vol. 1 of my series (and elsewhere). The Messiah was supposed to come 2,000 years ago, and he did. If not, everything is woefully off schedule. (The 2,000 years of Torah are dated from Abraham, whom the rabbis say obeyed the whole Torah and who lived roughly 2,000 BCE, to the Messiah.)

  42. Bo Wrote :” And Y’shua Messiah inaugurated the New Covenant with His shed blood.”

    Where does Jeremiah say such a thing? He doesnt. In fact, Jeremiah 31 is for the Jews only.

    “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” The gentiles are not added until later…much later. And we are not even close to that today.

    In fact Jeremiah says just the opposite of what you just wrote…step up a few verses..

    30 But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

    No vicarious atonement.

    Consider this. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel were Kohanim. What does that mean? Think about that for a moment. They are responsible for temple sacrifices. They were priests!

    The ramifications of having no temple had huge implications to them.

    Yet in the book of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Lamentations (the other prophets too) Neither Ezekiel nor Jeremiah…priests….mention even one word about the tragedy of the loss of the temple, with respect to personal blood sacrifice. Not one word. Those two priests should have been going on and on, crying about the lack of blood atonement.

    Do we see, ” Oh Hashem! What will my people do without blood sacrifice! We are condemned men! Without the sheding of blood there is no forgiveness! Exile without blood! We are doomed!

    Do we see that? No we do not. We see a lot of condemnation of a people who are wicked, corrupt and not obeying G-d and His Torah. We see an Ezekiel who is heart-broken that the Shekinah has gone away.

    But what are the words of comfort? Jesus and his blood? No…

    A restored Jewish people. A restored Temple. Restored Priesthood. Restored sacrifices and most of all, a restored Shekinah. And the Jewish people who are shown obeying the laws, statutes.

  43. Bo wrote :”Actually you did not read Deuteronomy 30 closely. It says that the commandments are not in heaven and that we do not need to say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us?” The point of the passage is that YHWH’s commandments have been revealed and they are not too hard for us to understand or too hard for us to know what they are. ”

    I am short on time but let me point out…..that was exactly my point. You just made it for me.

    We had everything we needed (Both Torahs) at the closing of Sinai. There was nothing additional in heaven to go get.

    Yet Jesus was in heaven.

    That is totally contradictory to what G-d told us. And because Jesus was in heaven and we did not have the whole story…obviously….because no Jew even knew about Jesus for 1500 years after Torah, the church had to change the salvation program, to something entirely different from Sinai and Dt 30. For example: (I dont expect a response, this is something I wrote for Facebook)

    A) Where in Tanakh (OT) does it say that messiah will end the law?

    B ) Where in Tanakh does it say that messiah will be granted the ability to forgive sin?

    C) Where in Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf?

    D) Where in TORAH does G-d reveal to Moses that messiah will be a god-man hybrid?

    E) Where in Tanakh does it say that a dying and resurrecting personage is enough to crown him King Messiah? (And does not fulfill the Davidic requirements)

    F) Where in Tanakh does it say that you must believe in someone to have atonement for sin?

    G) Where in Tanakh does it say that messiah will be the only “gate” to G-d?

    H) Where in Tanakh does it say that after messiah is killed, we are to pretend to eat his body and drink his blood?

    I) Where in Tanakh does it say that “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven”?

    J) Where in Torah does it say that there will be a change in the Priesthood that requires a change in the Law?

    There are no verses that directly claim such things. They can only be derived from eisegesis and Christian midrash. Thats it.

  44. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “In fact, Jeremiah 31 is for the Jews only.

    “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” The gentiles are not added until later…much later. And we are not even close to that today.

    In fact Jeremiah says just the opposite of what you just wrote…step up a few verses..

    30 But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

    No vicarious atonement.”

    It is very interesting that you say “Jews only,” for the passage says for Israel and Judah…not just Judah. Ezekiel makes a very clear case that Ephraim and Judah will be brought back together. Where is Ephraim/Israel? Scattered to nations/gentiles and indistinguishable from them.

    Isaiah 11
    10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    So the root of Jesse has come and the gentiles seek Him and have found His glorious rest. And the outcasts of Israel are beginning to be assembled from those gentile nations by Him along with the Jews. They are gathered under the New Covenant. That root of Jesse is none other than the Messiah Y’shua that was the only one to come at the timing that Daniel specified. The gentiles are added in starting at the very beginning of the New Covenant.

    Jeremiah 31
    27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
    29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    The context of the passage is not that somehow YHWH has changed and will suddenly start to only hold sins over the head of the one that committed them instead of over their children. The context is how He has dealt with Israel in judging them corporately for the sins of the nation in the past and that He will now be restoring them. In those days the proverb will change. It is a proverb. Proverbs are truisms, so to speak. So, instead of judgment coming upon Israel generations after the father’s sins, judgment will come to those that commit the iniquity.

    YHWH has always visited the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation to those that hate Him. He also has always blessed the following 1000 generations of those that love Him and keep His commandments.

    The proverb above in Jeremiah is not saying that there used to be vicarious atonement and now there is not. The subject is not atonement at all. The subject is YHWH’s mercy that is going to culminate in a New Covenant where YHWH writes His Torah upon our hearts instead of it being outwardly imposed from stone tablets and a priesthood needing to teach and judge. It will now be that we have an anointing from YHWH and can hear directly from Him and there should be no need of being taught to know Him…for all those in the New Covenant will know Him from the least to the greatest and He will forgive our iniquity.

    So in verse 30 we all die for our own iniquity, but in verse 34 He forgives our iniquity. Both cannot be true at the same time if they are talking about the same thing. The ramifications of the “sour grapes” of the father’s in the previous covenant will not effect the children’s “teeth” in the New Covenant. Verses 29 and 30 do not say that no one can die for another. It says that the children will not be executed for their fathers sins. Nothing at all about atonement is in this passage.

    And there has always been vicarious atonement. Animal sacrifices atoned/covered our sins and we were not put to death for them.

    Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    It is obvious that Isaiah spoke of Messiah Y’shua suffering for us and bearing our sin and iniquity and taking our chastisement, etc. And this is a place where “vicarious atonement,” if you want to call it that, is being spoken of.

    Shalom

  45. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “Bo wrote :”Actually you did not read Deuteronomy 30 closely. It says that the commandments are not in heaven and that we do not need to say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us?” The point of the passage is that YHWH’s commandments have been revealed and they are not too hard for us to understand or too hard for us to know what they are. ”

    I am short on time but let me point out…..that was exactly my point. You just made it for me.

    We had everything we needed (Both Torahs) at the closing of Sinai. There was nothing additional in heaven to go get.

    Yet Jesus was in heaven.

    That is totally contradictory to what G-d told us.”

    I did not make your point. You have still missed the point. The point is that the passage in De. 30 says that YHWH’s commandments have been revealed and we need no one to go to YHWH for us. There are not “two torahs.” That is just a fallacy from those that Judaism sent to heaven. The oral torah is a lie. It may have some good ideas and even some truth in it, but no matter how much truth you mix with doctrines invented by men, it is still a lie. The Torah that is spoken of in De. 30 is the written Torah.

    I am just going to re-post from above for further clarification. Please read it closely this time.

    You wrote:
    “One point I like to make with my Christian friends is this.

    Deut 30 says:”11 “For this commandment (to keep Torah) which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’

    No think about that for a moment. The church teaches that Jesus was in heaven the entire time. Yet G-d says there was nothing in heaven to bring down to earth to facilitate the observance of the commandments. Nothing.

    So how can it be, that Jesus was withheld for 1500 years after G-d said there was nothing more we needed? The NT assertion we needed Jesus to do Torah for us is a direct contradiction to Dt 30.”

    Actually you did not read Deuteronomy 30 closely. It says that the commandments are not in heaven and that we do not need to say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us?” The point of the passage is that YHWH’s commandments have been revealed and they are not too hard for us to understand or too hard for us to know what they are. And the passage goes on:

    De. 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

    The point being that if we have YHWH’s commandments in our mouths (meaning that we know them and can recite them) and in our hearts (Meaning that we love them), then we will not find them too hard to do.

    The New Covenant is supposed to accomplish this. The new heart that wants to obey YHWH and YHWH’s law being written upon our hearts are the same thing. The desire to do YHWH’s commandments must produce in us a desire to know what those commandments are.

    Y’shua’s blood was shed to put the New Covenant in force. Those that are under the New Covenant do not need anyone to teach them to obey YHWH’s commandments for they are motivated to learn them and keep them from the inside.

    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    So those that have been made partakers of the New Covenant have been anointed by YWHW’s Spirit and they desire to not transgress YHWH’s law. They have the hope of seeing Y’shua as He is at the resurrection and because of this hope they purify themselves via learning and then keeping YHWH’s commandments. They have real love for YHWH, His word, and their neighbors.

    1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    The new heart of love for YHWH and our neighbor is evident in our lives only when we want to do whatever YHWH has spoken.

    So Blasater, you misrepresent Deuteronomy and try to make it say something against the real followers of Y’shua, when in actuality it confirms the real followers of Y’shua and that they have become partakers of the New Covenant. I am also guessing that you did not know that Y’shua’s apostles wrote such things as I quoted above. And those things that they wrote prove that Y’shua did not teach against YHWH’s law and that He is not a false prophet.

    De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

    You wrote:
    “So how can it be, that Jesus was withheld for 1500 years after G-d said there was nothing more we needed? The NT assertion we needed Jesus to do Torah for us is a direct contradiction to Dt 30.”

    You would have to take that up with Moses and Jeremiah.

    Deuteronomy does not say that there is nothing else needed. (See my post above.) It says that YHWH’s commandments are revealed and close at hand…if we have the heart to accept them and keep them.

    De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    De 9:24 Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you.

    YHWH’s law is perfect…we are not.

    Evidently, though YHWH’s commandments were right there in front of us, we still needed to be cured of rebellion. Evidently we needed a New Covenant that produces a new heart. And evidently it did come 150o years later.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    And Y’shua Messiah inaugurated the New Covenant with His shed blood. It is time for you to enter it.

    Let me add one more thing about the passage in Deuteronomy 30 which you quote. It is an indictment against Judaism. For there are thousands of rules that are not in Torah that the rabbis and sages have added. In effect Judaism needs someone to “go to heaven” so to speak for you and to find out for you what supposedly YHWH’s commandments mean. Judaism needs someone to tell them all kinds of things like how to wash their hands with a special 2 handled cup else they be as unclean as if they had slept with a harlot. YHWH’s law says nothing of the sort.

    “Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sotah
    Folio 4a

    R. ‘Awira expounded sometimes in the name of R. Ammi and at other times in the name of R. Assi: Whoever eats bread without previously washing the hands is as though he had intercourse with a harlot; as it is said, For on account of a harlot, to a loaf of bread.”

    YHWH’s law says nothing of putting up a string around a town so that it all counts as one place so that burdens may be carried on Shabbat. YHWH’s law says nothing about a burden being anything more than the weight of a fig. All these, and a thousand more, doctrines have come from man and not Torah. The truth is that you need someone to tell you how, when, and where to keep Torah and Moses said that you shouldn’t need such.

    By adhering to man-made doctrines that are not in Torah, that add to Torah, that build a fence for Torah and that contradict Torah, you do not have the Torah in your heart, but the doctrines of men in your heart. You need to come into the New Covenant.

    And lest you think I only speak of Judaism, I would say much the same of institutional Christianity.

    Shalom

  46. Blasater,

    You wrote:
    “Where in Tanakh (OT) does it say that messiah will end the law?”

    Nowhere, but the New Testament does not say He will end it either.

    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    You wrote:
    “Where in Tanakh does it say that messiah will be granted the ability to forgive sin?”

    Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    You wrote:
    “Where in Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf?”

    Nowhere, but neither does is say so in the New Testament.

    Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    You wrote:
    “Where in Tanakh does it say that a dying and resurrecting personage is enough to crown him King Messiah? (And does not fulfill the Davidic requirements)”

    Nowhere, but it does not say that in the New Testament either. Y’shua fulfilled many, many of the requirements and will fulfill the rest upon His return.

    You wrote:
    “Where in Tanakh does it say that after messiah is killed, we are to pretend to eat his body and drink his blood?”

    Nowhere, but neither does it say so in the New Testament. Messiah uses the symbolism of the 3rd cup at Passover and the Afikoman to teach who He is. You just do not get symbolism, do you?

    You wrote:
    “There are no verses that directly claim such things. They can only be derived from eisegesis and Christian midrash. Thats it.”

    Well I guess you do not know your Tanakh or the New Testament very well, huh?

    Shalom

  47. I just happened by and saw one of the questions in the last post and I’m reminded of the commandment on the night of the first Passover, when the children of Israel were commanded to eat all the sacrifice and to leave none over till the morning and later for the priests to consume the sacrifice after it was offered. Isn’t that the allegory being drawn that Blasater asks about?

    “Where in Tanakh does it say that after messiah is killed, we are to pretend to eat his body and drink his blood?”

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