Rev. Sizer Is Disciplined; and An Interview with Joel Richardson

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Dr. Brown speaks with Messianic Pastor about significant developments with Rev. Stephen Sizer, often accused of anti-Semitism, and then speaks with author Joel Richardson about his latest Mideast-Islam release. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I’m please to see the steps taken by the church of England to discipline Rev. Stephen Sizer. I pray that he will experience true repentance.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There will be a day when a Jew rules the world, when Jesus the Messiah returns and sets up His kingdom. Let us pray that that day will be hastened.

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Other Resources:

Joel Richardson Interview; and Sorting Out End-Time Theologies

Refuting Erroneous Teaching about Israel and the Salvation of the Jewish People

Insights on the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Question of an Islamic Antichrist

38 Comments
  1. Stephen Sizer seems to be a sincere man and gentle person. But I have been following his actions and stances on Israel and the conflict in the middle-east for a number of years and have thus far been grieved by his position. I am looking forward to hearing Mikes news and comments on this later this afternoon.

  2. It was inevitable that the immediate response to Sizer’s discipline from some quarters would be that his freedom of speech and opinion was being violated. But he is a representative of the Anglican Church and holds a prestigious position in it, therefore it is only proper that his superiors reprimand him for what they believe are very improper comments. However, I do not think they are concerned too much about the theological views that he holds and teaches at such places as Christ at the Checkpoint. I wonder what he will do after the ban on social media ends. I do not think that the Anglicans have done anything to stop this dangerous man.

  3. Dr. Brown, I believe that my criticism is fair this time. Mr. Richardson’s title is quite pregnant with meaning. By the same token, the author could use “When a Man Will Rule the World.” This would be accurate, in a certain sense, because Christ is a man, but it leaves out something, does it not? We cannot divorce Godhead from the God-Man. Christ’s humanity is in a hypostatic union with his divinity.

    Simply, I think that the problem is this: Because modern Evangelical Millennialism anticipates a temporal Israel, one in this age, as opposed to in the age to come, (Mr. Richardson mentioned his expectation of a “Jewish Kingdom,” but not the “Kingdom of God and of His Christ”), proponents of this theology run the risk of creating a temporal Messiah. Christ said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” Mr. Richardson calls us to recognize the “Jew who will rule the world,” but are we sure that this is the Son of God?

  4. Nicholas, of course that Jew is the Son of God. I think your problem is with the Word of God, not with Joel Richardson.

    Yeshua is returning to set up His millennial kingdom. There will be a future earthly kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, where He rules and reigns for one thousand years. Believers have been looking forward to it for centuries.

    Summary of the Millennial Kingdom…
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/summary-of-the-millennial-kingdom.html

    Millennial Reign of Messiah…
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/millennial-reign-of-messiah.html

    The Millennial Kingdom by John F. Walvoord
    http://www.amazon.com/Millennial-Kingdom-Basic-Premillennial-Theology/dp/0310340918/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

  5. Christ did not come to set up the carnal kingdom for which the Pharisees longed. He was not to be that kind of Messiah. The Lord came to vanquish sin and death. Unfortunately, the theology which we find among those in the Millennial camp reverts back to the fundamental misunderstanding of the Jews who rejected their King. We are not to expect what Mr. Richardson calls a “Jewish Kingdom,” because the King of the Jews is not the leader of a worldly Jewish power, but rather God himself, the King of Kings. The Kingdom over which Christ will reign will be the Kingdom of Heaven, not one “of this world.” Christ will return and the boundary separating the heavenly realm from the physical world will be pierced. The Son of Man comes with the clouds of Heaven, and “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.”

  6. God the Son entered creation through the covenant people, the Jews. According to the flesh, Christ is a Jew. It had to be this way, because the Jews were the chosen race, chosen by God for this purpose: to bring the Messiah into the world, who would redeem all humanity. The Jews therefore interceded for the human race, ultimately and in the most perfect way though the Virgin Mary, who bore the Son of God.

    But Christ, when he comes, will not reign as Jesus the Jew. He will reign as the God-Man. To be the King of the Jews is to be the God of the Jews, and, thus, the God of all flesh, not an earthly potentate with a carnal kingdom, not the leader of a nation in this world.

    That kingdom of worldliness God denied the Jews. In the Old Covenant, they were to be a nation of priests. God granted them a king, but this king stood in the place of the coming Lord, the Son of David, the Messiah. The kingdom of the Jews, for which ethnic naturalism pined, this is the kingdom that Christ rejected, because this was never God’s plan for Israel, that they should possess a temporal, as opposed to a spiritual, power. Israel was God’s footstool, not merely a prestige for its citizens. When Christ comes, his Kingdom in the New Heaven and the New Earth will be the Kingdom of our Lord, not the boast of a people.

    I take serious issue as a Christian with the attempt to help to bring about the Kingdom which Christ specifically condemned. That Kingdom is not of God.

  7. Here’s something the apostle Paul wrote: (from I Cor 9:22)

    To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    I was watching TV once and there was something I thought might have been a gospel story. It was around Easter. I turned up the volume and it was in Spanish. I thought the one man was likely Jesus. He was calling another one “Pedro”. “Who is Pedro?” I was thinking. Is that Peter?

    Paul said that unto the Jews he became as a Jew that he might gain the Jews. Some might want to remind me that Paul was a Jew. I know. So was Jesus. And I suppose some will want to remind me that Paul is still a Jew. Maybe so, but what’s the point?

  8. We do not want to deny the Jewishness of Jesus, but rather seek to clarify the significance of that Jewishness. To believe that God became incarnate through a people in order to grant this people prestige, this is an error, a view which Christ condemned. The Jewish people’s pride was their God, not their Kingdom.

  9. Nicholas,

    Do you think that the Catholic Church is less prideful? With the vast wealth and lavish buildings and pomp, do you think that your worldly kingdom is better than the one that will come with Messiah as head?

    Just wondering where in the world you are coming from?

    You cast disdain on the idea of an earthly 1000 year kingdom of Messiah, when your church has imposed an earthly kingdom from its inception in 313 C.E.

  10. I Cor 9:22 really is so much like Jesus. People have seen him in visions and in so many different ways. One of the most interesting Christian radio program I ever listened to was on one afternoon when the question was asked, “What does Jesus really look like?” People started calling in telling about their visions of him. He appeared to different people in so many different ways, though we don’t actually know what his real appearance looked like, which is something difficult to describe. People saw him in different ways, doing different things. I have seen him as the King, also embracing the cross, looking like the proverbial Greek God, with his cheek to the wood, and I saw him in the heavens watching the wind on a windy day.

  11. I suppose I should have said “proverbial Greek god” with a small “g”, even though it was Jesus.
    Because it was him, I suppose it naturally came out big G, as I thought about what I saw, as he was showing me what heaven’s perspective of the cross is about, a thing of glory. The vision changed, and instead of seeing him, I began to see myself. So he was telling me something important and what I needed to do and remember.

  12. Bo,

    No kingdom is exempt from the tendency towards pridefulness, not the Church in its human element, not any other worldly realm, because this is the consequence of our fallen nature, but I totally reject the idea that the Messiah, when he returns, will reign over a fallen humanity; no, when he comes, Christ will give us our glorified bodies, and the whole universe will be his, and his alone. It will not belong to bishops in palaces, and it will not belong to the Jews. We who are righteous and believing will live in the eternal age, in the Resurrection, both those of us who were Jews and those of us who were gentiles.

    The Church has a right to receive wealth, because it is for the glory of God, just as the wealth of Israel went first and foremost to the treasury of the Temple. Christ said, “The poor you have with you always,” as he accepted his anointing with precious oils. But this is the passing glory of this world. It is for this world only, not for the world to come. As the master of ceremonies says to the pope at his coronation, “Sancte Pater, sic transit gloria mundi.” “And so passes the glory of the world.” In other words, the glory is fleeting. The material things of the time being have value until Christ comes. But he will change everything. He will not need a state, and he will not demand wealth. His Kingdom will not be of this world.

  13. Nicholas,

    The vast wealth of the RCC is outrageous. An expensive ointment poured upon the Savior’s feet was a personal gift and show of love. Once poured it could not be used to help the poor. The extensive wealth of the RCC can easily be changed into helping the poor. Gold and money can be used after it is given…or demanded. I say the same thing for the televangelists and mega church leaders that live in luxury off of the donations of those poorer than they are.

    Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
    4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
    5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
    6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

    The more I know of the RCC it is obviously the great mother of harlots and the more I know of protestantism it looks to be her daughters.

    Re 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
    2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    It is obvious form Revelation that there will be a 1000 year reign of Messiah on earth between the first resurrection of the just and the second resurrection of the unjust. Then, and not until then, will the new heavens and earth be created wherein dwelleth righteousness. Those that are Messiah’s faithful will rule with Him over the nations for the 1000 years. Nessiah will restore the kingdom to Israel…for it is prophesied and must come to pass.

    Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison…
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Shalom

  14. Bo,

    As to the identity of the Whore, let me point out that there are many candidates. There are nations and peoples far more powerful and wealthy than the Church could ever be, which exert far more influence over the world economically and socially. One in particular comes to mind.

  15. Nicholas,

    The whore is a religious power that rides a conglomerate multi-head political power.

    Concerning the Vatican’s wealth, let’s start with just this:

    “The Vatican’s treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.” source – Avro Manhattan

    http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=15076

  16. Nicholas,

    I will not believe you without proof. And it doesn’t matter how extremely wealthy some entity is as long as it it not playing the part of the whore of Revelation.

    “Some idea of the real estate and other forms of wealth controlled by the Catholic church may be gathered by the remark of a member of the New York Catholic Conference, namely ‘that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.’ Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. ‘The Catholic church,’ he said, ‘must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.”- http://thirdlensmedia.com/candidconservatives/the-vatican-billions-now-trillions/

  17. And Nicholas,

    You have not dealt with the scripture that tells of a physical 1000 year reign of Messiah with His faithful ones followed by the resurrection of the unjust followed by the new heavens and new earth. This is against the Catholic idea of the Pope ruling now in Messiah’s stead followed directly by the new heavens and earth where Messiah reigns for Himself.

    Shalom

  18. It’s simply the Millennial perspective, which you hold to, versus the Amillennial perspective, which the Church teaches. Even historical Protestantism taught that Christ reigns now through his church, and that we live in the age of that thousand years now, until he comes. It’s not only a Catholic thing.

  19. Nicholas,

    I have researched Freemasonry. I wouldn’t touch it with a 1000 foot pole.

    You are just not believing what is written nor what history teaches us about the 1000 year reign of Messiah. Historical protestantism held onto a lot of false doctrine when it exited its Roman Catholic mother harlot. They are her daughters. There is nothing that shows that Messiah is ruling through His assembly as of now.

    These passages speak for themselves:

    Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison…
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Shalom

  20. Nicholas,

    You are disagreeing what is straightforwardly stated in Revelation. How does the passage I quoted support your view?

    Shalom

  21. Nicholas,

    Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison…

    If what you believe is true, the first resurrection has already past. Paul does not like that idea.

    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    Your doctrine is at odds with John and Paul.

    Shalom

  22. Bo,

    St. Paul is not talking about what St. John calls “The First Resurrection.” That term occurs only in Revelation, so St. Paul would have not made a reference to it. It is a symbol. The one and only Resurrection of the dead will take place at the Last Judgment. St. John had a vision, which must be understood as allegorical. You interpret Revelation hyper-literally. This is dangerous, because you claim that Christ will preside as a king over a temporal, earthly kingdom, and Christmas denounced such a kingdom. He said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” The Kingdom of this world is the false kingdom for which the Jews longed, when they turned away from spiritual things and sought after the riches of the world. But the Kingdom of Heaven, this is what he offered them.

  23. Nicholas,

    I do not interpret Revelation hyper-literally. I take it literally where it speaking literally and symbolically where it is symbolic. What is dangerous is to take the word of a man or a church over what is obviously spoken and meant in the scripture.

    John says that there is a first resurrection of those that will rule with Messiah for a thousand years followed by the final resurrection and judgement. It just says what it says. The rest of the dead live not until the the thousand years are finished. So some of those that have died are living and ruling while some are not living for a thousand years. How can it be taken any other way?

    Messiah’s kingdom was not of this world at the time He spoke. It still isn’t and so the Pope cannot be ruling in His stead. Even when Messiah returns, His kingdom will not be of this world, per se. It will be the kingdom of heaven come to earth. According to the prophets, we will be keeping all the Biblical feasts in Jerusalem and those kingdoms that are of this world will be cursed if they fail to come up to the feasts.

    You offer no interpretation or explanation of the passages I have quoted. You just assert that it does not mean what it says and offer no proof of the veracity of your statements. You accuse me of hyper-literal interpretation and call it dangerous without ever proving my error or explaining from scripture your interpretation.

    Shalom

  24. Nicholas,

    And lest you forget, Paul did teach the first resurrection.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    Ch 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    When Messiah returns with His resurrected saints He then destroys the living that have come against Jerusalem. Now since the believers have been resurrected and YHWH’s enemies have just been killed, they must of necessity be resurrected to be judged at a later date because they have just died and the believers are already resurrected. The resurrections does not happen all at once. John says that there is a 1000 year gap. For all the things that the prophets to come to pass, there must be a literal time of Messiah ruling an reigning. Why do you not just believe the scripture instead of the doctrines of men?

    Shalom

  25. Bo,

    It is not for me or for you to decide what is the doctrine of the Scriptures and what is the doctrine of men.

    Paul never speaks of two resurrections taking place. In the passage you cite, he is referring to the Resurrection of the dead. Period. Of course, when the Lord comes, some will not be dead, and these will be caught up in the air, and Christ will deal with them accordingly. I see no proof in these verses of your position.

    The fact of the matter is that Millennialist theology, as it has returned in our present time, is merely an effort by some to promote Zionism and to usher in an era of world peace, ostensibly under the Messiah, which will be, in reality, under someone else entirely. God help us.

    As for me, I will leave it there.

    Thanks.

  26. Nicholas,

    You showed no logic nor an explanation of what John’s words might mean of symbolize. It stands as literal if there is no explanation. Paul says nothing of a general one time resurrection. He only speaks of believers being resurrected. Then he speaks of unbelievers being killed…not resurrected.

    You will leave it where you have only asserted things and proven nothing.

    Shalom

  27. ​thats bcuz all of u are living in
    ” MYSTERY ” babylon
    ….its Sodom & GAmerica the pitiful
    just read REVELATION 18 carefully the greatest most powerful nation economically & militarily thats ever existed in history is america which also claims to be Christian and God makes no mention of it in the bible anywhere ???
    in many ways america is an amalgamation of all the kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzars dream in the book of Daniel just look @ all our national buildings right out of Egyptian Greek & Roman architecture and our laws,courts,creeds and Senate are based mostly on the Greek & Roman model
    And we are the world largest nations of ” peoples, multitudes and tongues ”
    Then think about this New York is not only the melting pot of the world socially but the financial capital of the world globally where the UN BEASTs headquarters is.
    If wallstreet sneezes the whole world feels it immediatley.
    Not to mention the completely ungodly monetary system that feeds endlessly on debt, credit, exploitation & usury that weve exported around the world….. JAMES 5 ring a bell ???
    And then theres all the sick & perverted entertainment and idolatry that originated in NY and then later came west to LA / Hollyweird that we export around the world all in the name of cultural exchange and free trade while we slowly destroy other peoples cultures in the name
    ” DEMOCRACY & FREEDOM “……..what a hypocritical joke ! ! !
    And as far as the term ” WHORE ” goes God called Israel a whore for turning away from Him and he only calls someone a whore if they had a relationship with Him and then turned away
    america is proud haughty & arrogant and has turned away from God
    ” Pride cometh before the fall ”
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18&version=KJV
    notice verse 23
    REVELATION 18
    23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
    ” THE LIGHT ” is the Holy Spirit
    ” THE BRIDEGROOM ” is Christ
    ” THE BRIDE ” is the church
    ” COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE ”

    And last but not least if Joel Richarson thinks the AC is from Turkey or somewhere in the middle east and thinks is going to take control of the worlds economy, resources & monetary system the WTO, IMF, WHO rise up and become THE WORLDS BIGGEST economic superpower and make everyone get the mark then hes been smokin something.
    Thats like these prophetic teachers who taech Iraq is REVELATION 18s Mystery babylon bcuz the original Babylon was in Iraq when its nothing but a flee bitten old sand trap …
    what complete and utter nonsense ! ! !
    now the fact that america controls Iraq and the old city of Babylon might have some teeth to it.
    all the resources and military & economic power are in the west and Asia to stay Turkey may form some kind of Arab confederacy maybe even with Russia and go against Israel but they are not the Beast, Beast nation or Mystery Babylon……… my 3 cents

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