The Annual Christmas Debate

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Should believers celebrate Christmas? Hanukkah? Both? Neither? And why? Dr. Brown will take your calls for this annual Christmas debate. Is this a God-glorifying holiday or a pagan celebration? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As we come to the end of our annual Christmas debate, whatever you do, do it with all of your heart to God, honoring Jesus above all.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Whatever the world does or doesn’t do, it is a glorious truth to know that Jesus came to the world.

Other Resources:

The Annual Christmas Debate

Are We Mixing Politics with Religion? And Thoughts on Last Night’s Creation-Evolution Debate

Some Honest Questions for Pastor Andy Stanley, and Updates on Campus Morality and on Broadcasting Freedom

208 Comments
  1. Ray,

    Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    I guess you are saying that only Jews are supposed to live by every word of YHWH instead of “man.” Well, Messiah didn’t say that.

    Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    I guess that you are saying that this verse doesn’t apply to Christians…well then you are saying that unsaved Jews are the only ones that will be greatest in the kingdom.

  2. So what about the man who says that since Christmas isn’t one of the festival days mentioned specifically in the Old Testament Law, it therefore is wrong for any Christian to participate in it, even though it’s about the birth of Christ?

    Where does it say that in the Bible? Did God ever say such a thing?

    He’s like the man who took his inheritance and left to spend it all on riotous living.

    He’s a long way from being a Christian.

  3. Even though there is much in the Bible that isn’t written to us to practice, we may still believe it and learn from it. Not everything God commanded anyone to do is for us to do today. The Bible doesn’t work that way. I know this because that’s what the Bible plainly teaches.

  4. Bo,
    When I read about your life, I’m amazed you’ve had it so good. God is wonderful. Your problem is a sin problem. If you can not learn from people here on this blog, you should get some Christian counseling about what the gospel is, and how not everything written in the law is for everyone to practice today, yet we still believe it.

  5. Ray,

    See…you cannot answer straight forward questions. To answer would prove that you do not believe what Messiah actually said is true.

  6. Should Christians celebrate Hanukkah as Jesus being the ‘light of the World’ ? or Torah (teachings) as translated in KJV (‘Law’ approximately over 220 times) as ‘light of the World’ ? Should Christians celebrate Christ Mass as the birth of the ‘light of the World’ ? or Torah (teachings), according to King James of England, his hired translators, also remaining within the ‘catholic Universal system of modern ‘Nicolaitanism’ attempts to ‘conquer over the laity’, as ‘reformers’ (from within) while politically attempting reform of Rome, using Torah (law given to unique ISRAEL as a unique Nation contained within Torah TEACHINGS) as the birth of the ‘light of the World’ INSTEAD of simply obeying the commandments of Messiah Yeshua WHICH CAME FROM HIS F-THER IN HEAVEN TO HIS SON by the PERSON SENT, of THE RUACH ELOHIM (making Messiah Yeshua the ‘ANOINTED’ BY THE RUACH ELOHIM sent by the F-THER OF THE SON Who was born into this world COMPLETELY EMPTIED, relying upon HIS F-THER’S SENT RUACH ELOHIM ‘of Conviction’, in order to make possible HIS completion of the work He had come into Mary (100% woman) at her salutation given unto Elizabeth (100% woman) who also by the SENT RUACH ELOHIM from the F-THER OF THE SON confirmed in her return greeting an angel truly sent from heaven without guile claiming to be named Gabriel has spoken FAITH into her cousin as a Rhema Word FROM THE LIVING G-D, and together both women (100% each as separate women) brought forth an ‘overshadowing’ of RUACH ELOHIM as planned before the foundations of this tiny world and ‘footstool’ of Messiah Yeshua ‘doings’ AND A 100% Man came forth by the speaking forth of two 100% women OVERSHADOWED in ANOINTING by the HOLY SPIRIT OF ‘CONVICTION’ (100% G-d) sent to this tiny ‘footstool’ by the F-THER (100% G-d) of the Son who had also been begotten FROM the F-THER and SOURCE of the RUACH ELOHIM voluntary at first overshadowing of the 100% emptying of the eternal Son from the very bosom of the eternal F-THER of the Son ETERNALLY unto the planned eventual 100% BRAND NEW MAN as ‘ONE NEW MAN’ who was to reign ETERNALLY as a NEVER BEFORE EXISTED 100% MAN with ETERNAL BONES, ETERNAL FLESH, ETERNAL BLOOD, which ONLY would cleanse from sin BOTH the ‘leaderships’ in both Rome and England and their ‘laity’ of politically connected Christian efforts attempting to buildup worldwide the ‘nicolaitanism’ over the laity worldwide of the Harlot Church promised buildup which culminates in what Paul the Apostle AFTER HIS OWN CONVERSION over to Jesus Christ ONLY (not Law, not Temple, not Synagogue as the ‘light of the world’) being taught by the TEACHINGS (thru Torah) to say to the ‘laity’ CONCERNING TRUE ‘WORD OF FAITH’ message FIRST AND FOREMOST “SAY NOT”, in “heart” or by mouth from the “heart” of man “who shall ascend” ? THAT IS FOR TO “BRING CHRIST” (now BRAND NEW, NEVER BEFORE REVEALED IN NOW ETERNAL ‘FORM’ AS 100% brand new MAN seated at F-THER’S RIGHT HAND on the now ETERNAL MERCY SEATING (which all kings and priests and Papa’s EVERYWHERE must come to HIS F-THER for salvation eternally provided for by the 100% BRAND NEW MAN “fully perfected” from those days of HIS OWN VERY SAME LIKENESS OF VERY OWN SAME SINFUL FLESH OF FALLEN FIRST ADAM, AS IN ALL OFFSPRING FROM FALLEN ‘FIRST ADAM’, 100% man, AS was ‘LAST ADAM’, AND IS NOW eternally ‘THE SAME’ YESTERDAY FROM HIS OWN ‘PERFECTION’ FROM HIS ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM THIS TINY FOOTSTOOL OF HIS, TODAY AND forevermore 100% BRAND NEW MAN, WHO HAD COME FORTH FROM 100% woman with 100% human FROM ADAM, VIA ADAM’S ‘EVE’ also 100% woman’s womb, AND IF ANY TEACHINGS which must come from TORAH in which Law contained WITHIN Torah it SHOULD BE WARNING not to ‘say with the mouth’ nor from the ‘heart’ ANYTHING as to bringing ONE NEW MAN at the now ETERNAL MERCY SEATING at F-THER’S RIGHT HAND back down here again FROM ABOVE, either unto Jerusalem HERE BELOW, or London ‘here’ BELOW, or Rome ‘here’ BELOW nor ‘anywhere’ here BELOW). This Word is ‘Nye thee’ that if one confesses with the mouth WHILE believing in the heart of man that G-D RAISED MESSIAH YESHUA THE ANOINTED ONE by the SENT RUACH ELOHIM OF THE SOURCE OF ALL SPIRITS AND LIGHTS, FROM HEAVEN BACK INTO HEAVEN, is now seated at HIS F-THER’S RIGHT HAND hereafter, and forevermore as SAME ‘ONE NEW MAN’, fully and only ONE perfected UNTO THE ONLY LORD OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, never ending, ever expanding TO REIGN FROM THE NOW ETERNAL MERCY SEATING just below HIS F-THER’S SEAT OF ‘ALL’ POWER, who will stand and give HIS F-THER’S JUDGMENT also to the ‘kings’ and priests of this fallen world of first Adam AS TO BOTH THEIR AND THEIR ‘LAITY’ eternal destiny in this never ending ENTIRE Universe and eternal experiment NEVER ENDING of eternally given ‘free will’ to 100% men, and to 100% angels in which 100% man is created in their image WHICH CAME BEFORE in eternally given ‘free-will’ of which MESSIAH YESHUA’s BIRTH also was unto HIS BECOMING EVEN LOWER ALSO THAN THESE ETERNAL FREE-WILL CREATURES as all 100% man from 100% fallen Adam)

  7. Amy,

    Deuteronomy 7
    9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

    The above passage is YHWH’s heart on mutual familial/covenantal loyalty. To a thousand generations means that this will never not be so. He keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep His commandments. And I have never met anyone that returned to YHWH in true repentance that did not want to obey whatever YHWH said. The heart of a new believer cries out with gratitude, “Whatsoever YHWH says, that I will do.” before it even knows much at all about what YHWH says.

    Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
    7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
    8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

    The promise of being YHWH’s special treasure and holy nation and priests and kings is predicated on our loving obedience. He won’t force us to be these things. We have to want it…we have to choose it and order our lives accordingly. We have to do nothing to be chosen. We have to be faithful once we are chosen to be molded into YHWH’s royal priesthood. Peter gives us the same sentiment that is spelled out in Exodus 19.

    1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
    4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    Note that Peter also excludes those that are disobedient from this group of priestly rulers. They stumble at the word of YHWH. They cannot bring themselves to agree wholeheartedly to be loyal to YHWH and His instructions. They do not want the simple milk of the word. YHWH’s straight forward commandments are the milk. They require little or no guessing or chewing on to determine their meaning. Thou shalt not steal and remember the Sabbath to keep it holy mean what they say. When we simply do what YHWH’s word says, we grow. When we are hearers only, we deceive ourselves.

    Peter says that we have obtained mercy. He says that we are now YHWH’s covenant people. We knew way back in Exodus that YHWH keeps covenant and mercy with those that love Him and keep His commandments. It is just as true today as it was in the days of Moses and Peter. The “word” and the “scripture” that Peter refers to is the Law and the Prophets.

    Mt 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

    Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    The gospel of the kingdom has not changed. It was preached to Abraham. The same gospel that was spoken to those that came out of Egypt was spoken by Messiah and His apostles and is supposed to go to all nations. It was preached unto us as well as unto them. It is everlasting and has been so since the foundation of the world.

    Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    The gospel of the kingdom is that YHWH wants us to be His special treasure, peculiar people, holy priesthood, and rule with Him as kings. He wants us to join His family. He will provide the way and means for us to enter and pay our debt and take us out of slavery to sin. He will redeem us and save us and if we are faithful to Him, He will be faithful to us and transform us and remember us when he comes into His kingdom.

    Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Ac 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
    20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    But the first word of the Gospel is “Repent.” What are we to repent from? Our sins. What is sin? The transgression of YHWH’s law. Are we really walking in repentance if we continue to break YHWH’s law? We were dead in our trespasses and sins. Now that we have believed in Messiah, are we allowed to sin or trespass? Did Messiah really void the law or parts of it? What did He say?

    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    We are never to think that Messiah came to change even the smallest thing in the law. As a matter of fact, our place in His kingdom will be determined on how loyal we were right down to the smallest commandment in the law. He rewards loyalty. We are never to think that the Son was sent to break or teach men to break His Father’s law…but now we not only think it, we base our whole religion on this rebellious thinking.

    When did Messiah say that it would be possible for something in His Father’s law would change? When everything in the law comes to pass and heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth are still here. They have not melted with a fervent heat. The new heavens and earth are still not here. Hundreds, if not thousands, of things are yet to be fulfilled. We are still in the time frame in which we are not to ever think that anything has passed from YHWH’s law. Paul says the same thing in harsher words than “think not.”

    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    If we find ourselves breaking the law but we do not want to, we agree with Paul that the law is good. If we continue to break the law because we think that it doesn’t apply to us, we disagree with Paul and are sinning because we under grace and that grace may abound. If we continue to break the law, we sin purposefully or we think that the law is sin. If we continue to break the law, we think that our faith in Messiah has voided the law.

    We have the choice to continue to break the law unto death, or to be obedient unto righteousness. If we continue to break the law, we are slaves to sin. If we think that Paul taught anything against YHWH’s law, we make him out to be least in the kingdom at best or a false apostle. If we think that Messiah taught of sent His Spirit or His apostles to teach us that we are allowed to break YHWH’s law in the smallest of points, He cannot be our savior…for He would be a sinner.

    The gospel of the kingdom is that we have an opportunity to be redeemed from sin and death via the blood of Messiah and to rule with Him as kings and priests if we will be loyal to YHWH via love and keeping His commandments. YHWH will keep covenant and mercy with us to a thousand generations if we love Him enough to learn His word and put it into practice. If we just want to know it and not do it, we will be found to have deceived ourselves.

    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
    8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
    10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
    11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
    12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
    13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
    14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

    There is great reward in knowing and doing YHWH’s word. Starting with the sincere milk then on to applying all of it. We do not understand our errors and we need cleansing from secret faults. We need YHWH’s help to not sin presumptuously. Sinning presumptuously is knowing His law and breaking it on purpose. If we really pray the last verse in the context of the verses that come before, renewing our minds so that we believe that YHWH’s law is righteous, just and good, and present our bodies as living sacrifices to do whatever YHWH says, we will be greatly rewarded. The Gospel of the kingdom promises us that.

    Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    Our endurance to the end is more than simply believing in Messiah. It is not real faith unless we obey YHWH’s commandments.

    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    I will deal directly with the passages you quoted next.

    Shalom

  8. Amy,

    You wrote:
    “I don’t celebrate Xmas. I don’t keep the Jewish feast days either; I never have because I’m a Gentile.

    Do you believe the Scriptures teach I must become a Jew to be saved?

    This is what I believe…

    “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood….For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.” (Acts 15:19-20, 28-29)”

    No, the scriptures do not teach that you must become a Jew to be saved. Let’s look at the context of your quote from Acts 15.

    Acts 15
    1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
    2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question…
    5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    What matter did they come together to consider? If gentiles must enter Judaism before they can be saved. Judaism has added thousands of things to the the commandments of YHWH in scripture. When they speak of, “circumcised after the manner of Moses” it does not mean on the eighth day of life as the scripture commands. When they say “keep the law of Moses” it does not mean what is written in the Torah. Case in point:

    Ac 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    There is no law or commandment in scripture that says what Peter says is unlawful. But for the Jew of his day, there were added man-made laws in Judaism that said this and expounded on it. Peter’s vision jolted him to the core of his Judaic belief. He was to learn that the gospel of the kingdom was to be preached in all nations…and not just to the Israelites that had been scattered to the corners of the earth.

    “Circumcised after the manner of Moses” and “circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses” mean much the same thing…if not the same thing. The oral law of Judaism insisted that one must learn the torah and then be circumcised before you could enter Judaism. It even pronounced the death penalty upon proselytes that kept the Sabbath before they were fully Jews. The “manner of Moses” to them was all their man-made traditions and commandments. It was against their law to spit on Sabbath, because it might land on a seed and germinate it and thus they would be guilty of working on Sabbath. It was against their law to wear a garment with a pocket, lest something bigger than half an olive be in it and they go from one place to another and thus be carrying burden on Sabbath. Quite a heavy yoke to bear, don’t you think.

    Mt 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
    2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
    3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
    4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

    Those that sat in “Moses seat” were the ones that read from the law. Messiah said that His disciples should do whatever was read from Moses seat, but not to do the things that the scribes and Pharisees placed on them. He said that they were hypocrites that didn’t even do what they commanded nor what Moses commanded. But what Moses did write was to be obeyed.

    Back to Acts 15 context:

    Acts 15
    7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
    8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
    9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Peter reminded everyone that he learned a hard lesson about man’s laws compared to YHWH’s word. YHWH gave His Spirit to gentiles that believe in Him and work righteousness. Salvation is not predicated upon circumcision or Judaism, but on repentance and belief. What yoke is Peter speaking of? Is it YHWH’s Torah? Or is it what the Pharisees called “the manner of Moses”? What did Messiah call a heavy burden? What was it that neither the apostles not their father’s were able to bear? What was it that was too difficult for them? Was it YHWH’s Torah? Let’s see.

    De 30:10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

    YHWH’s torah is not too hard or too hard to learn or too hard to find. We can do it…if it is in our mouths and our hearts. What does that mean? It is Hebrew idiom for being able to recite it(in our mouths) and desiring to do it(in our hearts). So if we read it or hear it often or memorize it, it is in our mouths. If we love YHWH and want to obey His word, it is in our heart. This is what the New Covenant is supposed to do…put YHWH’s law upon our hearts. It is not done magically with some kind of tattoo on our heart. It means that He gives us the desire to know it and do it. So what is the heavy yoke? It is man’s commandments and the idea that one must save himself by works. But we all know that we are saved by grace, not works. YHWH’s law is not a yoke that is hard to bear. Back to Acts 15:

    Acts 15
    19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day…
    28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

    So the gentiles were not commanded to “circumcised after the manner of Moses” before they could be saved. They were not told to “be circumcised and keep the law of Moses” to be saved. They were told that they must do the 4 things to be saved. They were told that the 4 things were necessary. Necessary for what? Not to be saved that is for sure. Necessary to not offend the synagogue and bring uncleanness into the congregation. Necessary to not be looked upon as an idol worshiper.

    Certainly there were, and are, many more things that all of us would agree that a believer, even a new believer, should not do. Most of them are commanded in Torah. The apostles were not saying that only these 4 things out of torah are necessary. The most necessary thing for new believers is to know what scripture says. It will never be in their mouths if they cannot hear it or read it for themselves. Even if they have a heart that wants to obey YHWH, they will fail miserably if they do not know what His word says. It is not too hard if we know it and want to do it. It is not a heavy burden nor a yoke that is hard to bear.

    The “no greater burden than these necessary things” is an interesting choice of words. It is interesting because they did not quote the scripture and say these are the only 4 things out of scripture that you need to do. They were giving their own commandments. They were based on the scripture for the most part, but they were nonetheless man’s commandments. Apostle’s commandments, yes, but they were men. The heavy burden or yoke of Judaism is thousands of commandments of men. The light burden that the apostles laid on the disciples was just 4 things.

    There is no commandment in Torah that says not to eat things offered to idols. There is no commandment that says not to eat things that are strangled. The other 2 things are summations of many commandments.

    So the 4 necessary things allowed the new believer of that day and age to hear the word of YHWH…the scripture. This would allow them to fulfill their desire to drink of the sincere milk of the word and grow. They would be able to hear the word and do it. They would be able to look into the perfect law of liberty and be changed from glory to glory into the image of their Messiah that was perfectly obedient to His Father’s law. They would be able to walk a Messiah walked.

    Or they could also choose to hear the word and not do it. And we already know that this is not a good thing.

    Shalom

  9. “whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN”, “FAITH cometh only thru HEARING, and HEARING only from a utterance by VOICE (unto an individual by G-d)” THE F-THER OF THE SON HIMSELF had reserved this right to SPEAK from HEAVEN itself, & UNTO that individual’s ‘graced’ unto the actual HEARING of that “VOICE” SPOKEN BY YHWH HIMSELF, be any a twice born man, or angel (messenger) also any of ‘eternal free-will’ still capable of HEARING
    A ‘SPOKEN WORD’, COMING BY ACTUAL ‘VOICE’, in a ACTUAL vocal SPEECH in ‘UTTERANCE’ into the very ‘heart’ of an individual human, or any other creature of HIS creation CREATED unto being capable of HEARING HIS ACTUAL “VOICE” (whether under law of Israel, or not, whether having left first estate, or not !)

  10. Amy,

    Don’t listen to Bo try to put you into law keeping. Remember also how Jesus told us to beware of leaven.

    There are some people today who are full of hypocrisy and only use the scripture to lead foolish people captive. They do it through hypocrisy.

    There are commandments of the law that are not written to Christians today as if they were to do those things, yet we still believe them. Those things that were commanded were a part of history, and there is much to learn from them, even though we are not under any obligation to practice them.

    Among those things are keeping feasts, respecting days, and what to eat or not eat.

    Hypocrisy can show itself as the antithesis of truth, such as one saying Joe is doing this or that when in fact Joe is doing the opposite, while the one saying Joe is doing something, is doing himself what he says Joe is doing.

  11. Amy,

    You wrote:
    ‘”For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6)

    For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.” (Galatians 6:15)’

    You left out one.

    1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    All are true. So what matters has nothing to do with our ethnicity. And circumcision or uncircumcision does not get us saved or prevent us from being saved. Paul had Timothy circumcised. He did not loose his salvation. Faith in Messiah’s atoning blood is what saves us. Becoming new creatures happens when we are saved. The desire to keep YHWH’s commandments is the natural, or should I say supernatural, thing that the New Covenant produces in us. We do not have to adhere to Judaism or be circumcised to be saved, but the new creature desires to keep YHWH’s commandments. Circumcision of 8 day old males is a commandment. Being circumcised before partaking of Passover is a commandment.

    You wrote:
    ‘”And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” (Galatians 5:11-12)’

    Paul did not preach circumcision, but he had Timothy circumcised. There is a difference between being circumcised and preaching circumcision. If I preach the grace of YHWH through the atoning death of Messiah, I am telling you how to get saved. If I preach that one must be circumcised to be saved, it is different than saying that circumcision is a commandment. Those that preach the grace of YHWH also tell us that it is a commandment to not commit adultery. So do those that preach circumcision and keeping the law for salvation.

    Let’s look at some context in Galatians.

    Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Paul speaks of the same yoke of bondage that Messiah spoke of and that Peter spoke of. Judaism is a false religion of works based salvation. Torah is the instructions of a loving Creator on how to live a righteous, holy and responsible life of blessing. But Torah still cannot save us, it just gives us the information we need to live correctly. Paul does not say that keeping torah damns us or is the yoke of bondage. He continued to keep torah his whole life. He says that we fall from grace if we seek to be justified/saved by works. Even if those works are the works of the law.

    Was Timothy a debtor to keep the whole law? Paul had him circumcised. No, because he was not trusting in circumcision or any other work to save him. Did Messiah profit Timothy nothing? No, because his circumcision was not done to gain salvation. If Timothy can be circumcised without loosing his salvation, so can we. We just are not allowed to preach circumcision or torah keeping for salvation.

    You wrote:
    ‘“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.” (Philippians 3:3)’

    Since you do not steal and do not commit adultery, are you putting confidence in the flesh? If you are not doing these things to be saved, you are putting confidence in the flesh. If you are not doing these things because it is the way that believers are supposed to live, you are acting righteously, but you are not making yourself righteous. Circumcision of the heart, according to Deuteronomy causes us to want to keep YHWH’s commandments. It does not convince us that need not keep them.

    To be continued below

  12. Continued from above

    You wrote:
    ‘“In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:11-17)”‘

    Neat verse. Very hard to understand in English. It is translated so many different ways by different translations and argued about by Greek linguists profusely. I have done a bit of homework on this one. Let’s add some context and break it down.

    Colossians 2
    4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
    5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
    6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

    Paul is going to warn these guys over and over…about the doctrines, traditions and ideas of men. Let no man beguile you with enticing words…so walk in Him (Messiah)…as ye have been taught. They were not to be fooled by those that had their own ideas. The scripture is the inspired and infallible word of YHWH. This is where Paul told Timothy to go for instruction and to know how to walk righteously. I am doubting that he would have the Colossians learn anything different.

    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    The only scripture that Timothy could have known from his youth is the Law and the Prophets. He was told to teach and rebuke and exhort his congregation in the verses that come after this. He was at Ephesus at the time…not too far away from Colosse. Would it be anything but the then recognized scripture that Timothy would have used for doctrine, reproof and instructions in righteousness?

    Colossians 2
    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world” these are the exact same things that Messiah said about Judaism and its teachers. He said that these teachers had made YHWH’s commandments void and their worship vain via their teachings and laws. So the opposite side of this is that we must continue keeping YHWH’s commandments so as not to be deceived and robbed of our reward. That is what spoiled means-robbed.

    This spiritual circumcision, as I stated before causes us to want to keep YHWH’s commandments. And now we are risen as new creatures with the desire to obey.

    Colossians 2
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Trespasses are violations of YHWH’s law. We are forgiven when we repent. If we are truly repentant, do we then think that transgressing YHWH’s law is no longer sin?

    Colossians 2
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Here are a couple of better better translations that take into consideration how the Greek words were used:

    14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. HCSB

    14 canceled the note that stood against us, with its requirements, and has put it out of our way by nailing it to the cross. Williams

    14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. RSV

    It is not YHWH’s law that stood against us. It was the record of our wrongs that we had done. The “handwriting of ordinances” properly translated in accordance with the then current usage is something like an IOU or a legal document that proves our debt. So the record of what we did wrong was nailed to tree with Messiah. Our sin debt was cancelled. He paid the price for us. He redeemed us. He did not come to do away with YHWH’s law. He came to satisfy justice, not eliminate the very thing that described what is just and righteous and good.

    to be continued below

  13. continued from above

    Colossians 2
    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    Who are these principalities and powers? The Greek words are used to denote religious leaders or civil authorities. Here are few examples of the exact same words used in scripture:

    Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

    Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    We all know who Messiah was constantly making an open show of. It was the Scribes and Pharisees. He made them look like idiots. He proved that their authority was misused and even proclaimed that they would loose their positions and that others would be put in their place. And it happened. The apostles were authorized after all power and authority was given to Messiah.

    Mt 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

    Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    So he spoiled the leaders of Judaism and took away their power and authority and gave it to the apostles. The apostles were to be the new teachers and leaders. What did Messiah command and teach the disciples? To do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments and to repent because the kingdom of heaven is near and available to those loyal to the king.

    Colossians 2
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    We need to always ask what the therefore is there for. Since Messiah has taken the authority away form the Jewish religious leaders therefore let them not judge how we keep YHWH’s holy days. We are not supposed to keep YHWH’s days according to the ruling of men but we are to live by every word of YHWH. The scripture is our rule of faith and practice. We do not need to wash our hands a certain way before we eat and drink. We are not supposed to go by the Jewish calender that is corrupt with man’s rulings. We are to use the Biblical calender to determine YHWH’s feasts. By all accounts in the apostolic writings, the believers were keeping the feasts. All the time references in Acts and the Epistles are in relation to YHWH’s holy days. Not one references the Roman or any other calender. Why would gentile believers be spoken to in this manner if they were not quite aware of this calendar and were keeping YHWH’s holy days?

    Verse 17 has many Greek anomalies. Too many to go into in this venue. But the literal Greek does not say “but the body is of Christ.” It just says “but the body of Messiah.” This phrase is a dependent clause that goes with independent clause at the beginning of verse 16. The simple version goes something like this “Let no man judge you…but the body of Messiah. The words in between do not change the meaning. The perfectly literal translation goes something like this: “Let no man judge you (in respect of all these things) but let every man discern the body of Messiah (in respect of all these things).”

    It wasn’t that these believers were not keeping YHWH’s food laws and holy days and were being judged for not doing them. It was that Judaism was trying to force their man made views and rules upon the Messianic congregation Biblically pure observances. The details follow from verse 18-22

    Colossians 2
    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

    Let no man beguile you of your reward. What reward? Maybe the reward for keeping all of YHWH’s commandments and teaching men so. Bowing to the preaching of “angels” (which literally means messengers) that do not accept Y’shua as Messiah will rob us. Judaism ends up causing men to obey the commandments of men instead of YHWH’s commandments. Messiah said so in Mark 7. If we obey these men’s ideas, we are putting them ahead of YHWH and His word and are thus worshiping them. They do not hold the Head. They are in opposition to Him.

    Colossians 2
    20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

    The ordinances that we are to keep are the ones in scripture. The worldly ideas of religious men are not to be kept. They turn us from the truth. They rob us of our reward. Colossians is a damning expose on men’s doctrines, commandments, philosophies, traditions and judgements. It declares our freedom and responsibility to worship and serve YHWH according to His pure word.

    Shalom

  14. Ray and Amy,

    The leaven that Messiah warned about was the false teaching of the scribes and Pharisees. Leaven is sin. Sin is transgression of the law. Keeping the law and teaching others to do the same is what those that want to be great in the kingdom of heaven do. It is a commandment and doctrine of men to believe that we are exempt from the law. It is that teaching that is leaven. It is that teaching that causes people to stumble.

  15. Amy,

    I have answered you thoroughly…too thoroughly 🙂 in posts 119, 124, 157, 158, 162, 163, and 164. You might also like to read 147 to get a better picture of who I am. Let me know what you think.

    Shalom

  16. Ray,
    “Even though there is much in the Bible that isn’t written to us to practice… .”

    Yep, like Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans… .”

    We don’t practice that Commandment Jesus gave (which was the Word of God), because we understand everything that is said has a particular context, and we have to believe and follow a (“contradictory”) ruling Jesus later issued in a different context–Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles… .”

  17. Ray,
    “cannot be under the old Covenant and the new Covenant at the same time”

    Totally correct. Galatians 4 tells us that Hagar (representing the present Jerusalem and the Law at Sinai) will be thrown out; and that her son, Ishmael (representing those who are “of the Law”), will not inherit together with Isaac.

    Galatians 4
    21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
    27For it is written,
    “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
    BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
    FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
    THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
    28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
    30But what does the Scripture say?
    “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
    FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR
    WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
    31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

    Romans 2:13-15 tells us that the Gentiles who don’t even know the Law fulfill it (if Bo was correct, this would be impossible); and Romans 3:21 teaches that the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith in the Gospel is revealed “apart from the Law”.

  18. Dan1el,

    I fully expect that you will not be a hypocrite and waste your time answering me.

    Yes, rightness is revealed from faith to faith apart from the law. It was that way from the very beginning. Pharisaic Judaism and other religions, in failing to believe what scripture says, try to earn salvation by works. BUT Messiah and Paul and John and Peter and James absolutely declare that we are not allowed to break the law. Not because keeping the law saves us, but because the law of YHWH is the revelation of what is the righteous and holy way to live.

  19. And the New Covenant gives us the desire to keep YHWH’s law. YHWH’s law has not changed and will have not parts missing until heaven an earth pass away.

  20. Bo, Do you believe the Israelites were under the old covenant and the new at the same time? Do you think the Abrahamic covenant is the fulfillment of the new testament?

    Israel was under the old covenant as they themselves were evidence of God doing his fulfilling work as he promised Abraham, yet there was much that had not yet come as far as the Abrahamic covenant was concerned.

    When Israel spoke the things God did to their children, being so saturated in types and shadows of things of the new testament, they heard things of the gospel of Christ.

    Those that received those things by faith as Abraham did, (for he saw in his heart the day Jesus would come in the flesh) knew of a time of the great grace of God that would become known to all the world.

    Yet, some of them did not believe, but sought only to please God by their own works, something that always failed, and they did not enter into God’s rest.

  21. The gospel gives us the confidence in Christ so that we may please God without the works of the law, which comes by faith.

  22. Ray,

    As usual you do not actually answer questions. Your obfuscation is very telling. I’ll ask again…were the Israelites under the Abrahamic and what you call the “old covenant” at the same time? Try answering this time.

  23. If your answer is yes, they were under both at the same time, I have no further questions. If it is no, I wonder if you have read the Bible. And by the way, we are not under covenants, we are in covenants. So I guess I should ask were they in covenant with YHWH via Abraham being their father and in covenant via mount Sinai at the same time? And I already know that you will not answer directly.

  24. Amy,

    Things are speeding up so I will post this again for your benefit.

    Amy,

    I have answered you thoroughly…too thoroughly 🙂 in posts 119, 124, 157, 158, 162, 163, and 164. You might also like to read 147 to get a better picture of who I am. Let me know what you think.

    Shalom

  25. I was thinking about King David after reading a little from the Psalms.

    So, I wonder if he would celebrate Christmas if he was living today, and if so, how so?

    Would he be living differently in a new covenant with God, and if so, how much so?

    Certainly a man living in a different time would live somewhat differently, for he couldn’t find the same clothing at the shopping mall would he?

    I wonder if he would drive a car, but I wonder the most about how his life would be different spiritually.

    Would he ever eat a Yumbo from Burger King?

  26. Ray,

    If you read Psalm 119, you will find a good many answers to what David would be about no matter when he lived. A man after YHWH’s heart has a heart for His law also.

  27. But Bo, you miss the most important thing. He would not have been living under the law but under grace as a believer in Christ. As a believer in Jesus, there would be so many things of the law that would no longer apply to him, such as what he may eat, and even how he esteems any given day.

    A man living out of the time to which he belongs, doesn’t work very well.

  28. The ‘annual Christmas debate’ obviously has taken a back seat to ‘should Christians observe the Torah’, but prefer spilling out of their heart as mainly KJV students (some of whom still believe the Hebrew word ‘torah’ was properly translated all 220+ times in KJV as ‘law’ ? ). Nothing could be further FROM the truth ! INCLUDED IN ‘TORAH’ (teachings) certainly is the Birth of the ‘man’ from ‘heaven’ from a ‘virgin young woman’s womb’, whose name was to be called ‘Savior’ (in heaven his name Emmanuel ‘G-d sent’ unto us from heaven to earth) but not to stay down here, in which we celebrate his ‘birth’ from a 100% woman, and coming to us as a 100% man. TEACHINGS within Sola Scriptura can be argued as to whether there has ever been a 200% of anything, especially that of the nature of a man (but as to the argument that Torah means ‘law’ ? this does not require this many ‘hits’ on the ‘Christmas Controversy’ thread, for there should be absolutely no argument that King James was a ‘lawgiver’ over the ‘laity’ he was out to conquer as always a member of the great Harlot Church promised world-wide BUILDUP unto these heavens totally on ‘real’ fire, but was a rival in Rome’s ‘harlotry’ major contributor to ‘nicolaitanism’ Universal whose ‘deeds’ G-d HATES with a passion, no need to mention the ‘doctrine’ for ‘doctrine alone’ does not produce ‘deeds’ OF especially HARLOTRY WICKENESS in this initial only INTRO to eternal existence somewhere in our Creator’s never ending, ever expanding ETERNAL experiment of eternal free-will creatures of HIS creation in an eternal, ever expanding MATERIAL Universe of boundaries called time, space

  29. I’m thinking that if the Old Testament believers that we read about, were living today, that many if not all of them would celebrate Christmas, for it’s so much about the birth of Christ, even today, and I believe they would enjoy their liberty in Jesus Christ to do so.

    I trust they would honor, cherish, and protect that liberty that Jesus paid for with all that he had.

  30. as to the continuing misquote that ‘sin is the transgression of the LAW’ ? RATHER THAN TRANSGRESSION by the ‘lawless’ bent (iniquity of those never under law, never born again unto the Nation of Israel, nor desiring to be under any of G-d’s commandments to this unique Nation which is forever, just not down here forever, even not surviving their special ‘threshing floor’ given them BUT AS FORERUNNERS to the coming REAL FIRE and world wide separation of wheat from tares AS TO THIS ‘TINY’ IN COMPARISON TO THOSE EXISTING HEAVENLY ‘PATTERNS ABOVE’, entire heavens of this WHOLE WIDE WORLD suddenly, no human soul life whatsoever remaining on this tiny dirt to dust footstool only, and ‘threshing floor’ existence for all from first Adam, ‘Eve’ and mother of all natural living soul BODIES hidden within all such are to be ‘taken’ from this ‘dust’ to await their own ‘order’ of resurrection IN THE FLESH from here, WHILE THIS FOOTSTOOL was chosen for a ‘lake of fire’ maximum confinement for a future tossing from heaven of most ancient of dragons, also the angels which followed from most ancient Lucifer’s rebellion as first ‘liar’ from “beginning” soon to come to an ending result of his choosing to rival his SOURCE’S KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, ‘of G-d’, in his grace given ‘eternal’ free-will). Transgression of the TEACHINGS of our SOURCE UNTO A BENTNESS (INIQUITY) ON PURPOSE even unto joining with ‘past rebellion’ (as many will ‘take the mark of the Beast’ after ending of first resurrection FROM HERE, without realizing they have lived out their brief ‘initial only’ life AND again in the Next life IN THE FLESH as according to the pull of their own same ‘dna’ unique from fallen first Adam, also thinking as recently we heard from John MacArthur ‘taking of the Mark’ CANNOT cause loss of salvation of those eternally secure by the teachings of his attempted ‘reform’ from within of the modern last days promised ‘world-wide buildup’ in utter ‘harlotry’ as seen from heaven where only THE F-THER OF THE SON chooses the true BRIDE AS REWARD FOR HIS SON and obedience even death, then unto ‘perfection’, from those day’s of HIS OWN TEMPORAL SAME LIKENESS IN SINFUL FLESH of the fallen ‘first Adam’)

  31. ‘hyper’ Grace takes on many ‘forms’, not the least of which is displayed by some on this ‘thread’ as students under the once English ‘King’ when ‘hiring’ translators also favorable to KJ in rivalry with then especially the ‘Papa’ of Rome ALSO IN GREAT HARLOTRY according to HEAVEN, according to TEACHINGS (Torah) both Old and New Covenants COMPLETED approximately 1500 yrs. before KJV circulation unto the ‘laity’ being ‘conquered’ by other than the REAL Holy Spirit ‘of Promise’ AND ‘GENUINE CONVICTION’ sent from HIS ‘SOURCE’, OUR HEAVENLY ‘F-THER’ OF THE NOW ‘HEAVENLY ONCE AGAIN’ brand new creature MAN, AND ‘SON’ eternal.

  32. Ray wrote:
    “But Bo, you miss the most important thing. He would not have been living under the law but under grace as a believer in Christ.”

    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Ray misses the most important thing in saying this. He misses the fact that the New Covenant makes us love YHWH’s law…just like David the man after YHWH’s did. The law does not change…our hearts do. He is woefully ignorant of the everlasting gospel that people like David and Abraham believed in. He thinks that the gospel is something only 2000 years old when it was here from the beginning. He thinks that the law started at Sinai when it actually started from the beginning. He thinks that the savior wasn’t such from the beginning.

    The freedom that Ray preaches is freedom to sin instead of freedom from sin. But he does not ever deal with any passage of scripture that would convict him of transgression. And sin is the transgression of YHWH’s law.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    He fails to realize that Abraham 430 years before Sinai kept YHWH’s laws and statutes and commandments.

    Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    If the law is not operative, there is no such thing as grace for there is no need of grace when there is no sin. And there is no sin where there is no law.

    If Ray wants to be taken seriously, he needs to actually show how the passages that I quote are on his side. If he cannot, he is just ignoring the word of YHWH instead of believing it.

  33. Ray wrote:
    “I’m thinking that if the Old Testament believers that we read about, were living today, that many if not all of them would celebrate Christmas…”

    So much for actually believing what is written about them. Ray instead just likes to imagine that those devout believers would apostatize like modern churchianity. It makes him feel better about himself. It makes him not deal with what is written. It helps him be a hearer only.

    Ray is right about a few people that we read about in scripture. Jezebel, Jeroboam, Ahab, King Saul, Cain, Herod…they would very likely celebrate xmas. Elijah, David, Moses, Abraham, and Daniel would not. But Ray is free to imagine and think and wonder all he wants. If he wants truth though, he will have to stop all the wondering and just accept what is written.

  34. Tree of Life Version I John 3:4 “sin is lawlessness” (“anyone PRACTICING sin also PRACTICES lawlessness”). KJV quoted way to many times already, simply DOES NOT DEFINE SIN of the practicing lawless ! SIN is clearly defined as “whatsoever is not of FAITH” ! (“missing the mark” happens by committing anything that is not of FAITH). Faith cometh ONLY by HEARING, and hearing by a ‘Rhema’ Word from G-d ! So much on this ‘thread’ supposedly about Christmas, it’s many continued controversies, should major on the subject of FAITH, and not insisting the subject of what is ‘sin’ ? is known by the ‘sinners’ of this, and another ‘thread’ entitled ‘CHRISTIANS’, SHOULD THEY OBEY THE TORAH (which turned into LAW ONLY, also instead of ENTIRE OLD AND NEW COVENANT TEACHINGS, NOT WHAT IS SIN, or defining from KJV errors over, over again, as consistent in error, being ‘transgression’ against the LAW ? (not even transgression against clear TEACHINGS, OF BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS in total, what is given as necessary unto man, COMPLETE in “HIS TEACHINGS”

  35. So who here thinks a man is absolutely transgressing the law if he runs a string of colored lights on his house during the Christmas season?

    What does the law say about making up one’s own rules to follow, and telling others that’s what they should do, and that they should go that way?

    What might have happened to a man who would do that back in the days of Moses?

    I’m thinking that he might be brought before the elders, maybe some who were appointed as judges, and they might want to know from the man where in the law does it say people have to do whatever the man says is contrary to the law, while the law says no such thing?

    They might have to decide if the man is leading the people astray, away from the law or not.

  36. And what about a family that decides it will exchange a few gifts at Christmas? Are they transgressing the law just because they wrap
    up some presents in brightly colored paper to exchange at Christmas?

    What does the law say about loving one’s neighbor as himself?

    Would any of us want our neighbor to come into our house and start making up their own rules about what we may have or do, and tell us that since the law doesn’t have such things in it, (for it is silent about such things) then they are not to have those things and if they do they are transgressing the law?

    Would that be loving God?

  37. Some miss something very important. They don’t understand that a man who lived under law in the Old Testament, and did not live contrary to it, if he would live today in the new covenant, with that kind of character, he would believe in Jesus, and would honor, cherish, and protect the liberty he has been given in Christ, and would not go about condemning any an all people for such things as having a Christmas tree, for doing that would be completely contrary to a righteous character.

  38. lets get real ‘practical’ for a minute, how many who participated on this ‘thread’ or read any of this ‘thread’, or wrote on this ‘thread’ this last Dec.25th,2014 who ‘heard’ first a Rhema Word from G-d before doing ANYTHING that day ? Most of us have rarely even ‘heard’ a Rhema Word from G-d our F-ther IN HEAVEN (as Messiah Yeshua did NOTHING since He said “I must be about my F-ther’s business”, age 12, except what He had ‘heard’ first from His HEAVENLY F-ther). So much for those who believe they have not sinned this past Christmas, or who also have any claim to have remained ‘sinless’ either celebrating or not celebrating the ‘birth’ of our Lord Yeshua Messiah 2014 ! Yeshua Messiah Himself only remained ‘sinless’ because by FAITH He came to know He was given the HEAVENLY Priesthood after the HEAVENLY order of ‘Melchesedek’, having ‘earned’ such by ‘whatsover’ He did, was by FAITH from ‘hearing’ and ‘hearing by a up to date, daily, hourly, Rhema Word from G-d’ (not simply seeing Himself in Torah (TEACHINGS) for He also being an ISRAELITE came under the Law contained within TEACHINGS sacred ‘to the Jew first’, also to the ‘Gentile’ (Jew), also to the Greek (speaking) Gentile world, also now to the entire world of ‘Jew’, ‘Greek’, ‘Barbarian’ world steeped in last days ‘Harlotry’. None of us are ‘sinless’, AND none of us are here under the HEAVENLY PRIESTHOOD of Melchesekek (regardless of joining the Harlotry of Joseph Smith, the Mormon led ‘prophets’, or the ‘Papa’ of Rome, or whatever INCLUDING the ‘Reformers’ attempting to ‘Reform’ any of these Harlotries now worldwide while retaining so-called ‘Orthodox Catholic Faith false Doctrine Universal’ of today CLAIMANTS (none of which have TRUELY ‘taken up’ THEIR OWN cross and followed Messiah Yeshua unto drinking of that same ‘cup’ of ENTIRE sanctification ‘setting apart’ FROM THIS TINY FOOSTOOL of our ‘initial only’ INTRO to eternal existence as ‘free-will’ ETERNAL created creature made in the image of ‘angels’ AND NOT as the first ‘man’ (without woman) made in the image of ‘gods’ created before even ‘Lucifer’ the man without a woman, as just one of the someday to be manifested ‘sons of G-d’ made in HIS image. The Christmas ‘CONTROVERSY’ is all about JUST WHAT IS FAITH (not at all about the already settled Law WITHIN ‘TEACHINGS’ AS GIVEN TO THE UNIQUE NATION CALLED OUT OF EGYPTIAN BONDAGE of Jacob, & not his brother whose ancestry said to Yeshua some nearly 2,000 yrs. ago, their Messiah to the ‘Jew FIRST’ – unlike you, “we have never” from our own derived ancestry, ever “been in bondage”, as you have from your ancestry of Jacob aka: ISRAEL was called uniquely out of Egyptian bondage AND GIVEN THE LAW within the TEACHINGS sacred ! )

  39. Shouldn’t we expect that a good man who honored the Passover lamb under the old covenant, who lived at the time of Moses, that such a one would honor the work of Christ, who delivered people out from the law and it’s strict requirements?

  40. TEACHINGS (COMPLETED entire ‘TORAH’) make clear ‘just believing’ in Yeshua Messiah may bring an individual into ‘new birth’ (a second birth) but without taking up ONE’S OWN CROSS unto ‘entire’ sanctification of drinking of that ‘same cup’ of entire dedication, entire dedication unto (as Yeshua Messiah as last Adam, in an entire breaking away FROM first what TEACHINGS sacred has taught us about first Adam’s “earthiness” we all were born under his ‘fall from Grace’, including Jesus Christ our Messiah ben Joseph AND ben David ?) UNTO THE ONLY NEW BIRTH FROM ABOVE and the only baptism ‘which now is saving us’ (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, in very same likeness of our very same sinful flesh from fallen first Adam) INSTEAD OF MAINTAINING AN EXCELLENT CONSCIENCE not with Messiah Yeshua, nor the sent RUACH ELOHIM FROM HIS, OUR SAME ‘SOURCE’, but WITH the F-ther of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who sits on the ‘seat of ALL power’ above the now eternal ‘mercy seating’ IN HEAVEN of Yeshua NOW fully perfected, BRAND NEW ‘ONE NEW MAN’ with now ETERNAL flesh, bones, blood NEVER TO BE REMOVED FROM THAT NOW eternal ‘MERCY’ seating IN HEAVEN)

  41. Yeshua Messiah ‘fulfilled’ the TEACHINGS, including all the ‘law’, contained within the sacred TEACHINGS, as given to the unique ‘called out’ Nation of ISRAEL, of which He was of their ancestry, that of this unique NATION given ‘law’ (BUT even HE, was only able to fulfill it, & ONLY BY HIS EARNED DECLARATION from HEAVEN, & which came TO HIM directly in ‘Rhema’ Word FROM HIS ONE and only F-THER, who ‘art IN HEAVEN’- “THOU ART A PRIEST FOREVER, AFTER THE ‘ORDER’, THAT ONLY OF ‘MELCHESEDEK’)

  42. So what of the man who says to his family, “I’m the head of this household because I’m the father, and I hold a position of being something like a priest to this household, and I want to tell you something about a certain Christmas. It was a little bit into World War 1, and it was Christmas eve day. The German soldiers began singing Silent Night in German, and the next thing that happened was that there was a line of Christmas trees all along the German line, and they were light up with candles and lights, and because of this Christmas celebration, it became one of the closest things I can think of as a Jesus revolution. Because of Christmas, the shooting stopped, men came out of their trenches and even began exchanging gifts, so as the head of this household, I’ve decided that I will get a Christmas tree and read the Christmas story from the Bible, about the birth of Jesus Christ.”?

    So what about a man like that? …Idolater? Unsanctified idiot?…clown, or fool because he gone the way of the world in getting a Christmas tree?

  43. And what if a man says, “Yes we have a tree, Christmas isn’t about the tree, or the presents, or the lights, it’s about the birth of Christ.”?

    Idolater?, Hater of God?, World lover?

    Not necessarily.

  44. Here’s some statistics about World War 1:

    8.5 million soldiers killed
    21 million soldiers wounded
    7.7 million POW

    And I can’t help but wish it would have ended with that first Christmas, that first revolution from the trenches of 1914.

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