Doctrinal Difference Call-in Day (and Should Christians Serve in the Military?)

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Calling all cessationists, Calvinists, dispensationalists, hyper-grace adherents, and others who differ with Dr. Brown doctrinally. This is your day to call in and raise your best argument for any of these doctrinal issues. And on this Veteran’s Day, as we honor those who have served our country, we’ll also discuss the question of whether it’s right for Christians to serve in the military. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As we honor our veterans and debate whether Christians can serve in the military, let’s ask the question, is there ever a just war and is God on the side of justice?

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let us major on the majors and minor on the minors. If we live like that, we will be blessed, our feet will be steady, and our heads will be clear.

 

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Other Resources:

Calvinists Call-in Day

Cessationist Call-In Day

Dr. Brown Talks with David Ravenhill and Then Shares His Insights on Radical Islam and the Boston Marathon Bombings

171 Comments
  1. ‘The Seven spirits of G-d’ (which are named as Seven ‘angels’, of ‘Seven’ Churches, Asia Minor, later scattered as established of earliest of Pentecostal ‘Churches’, continuing from, & less than a decade from Pentecost, 33 A.D., scattered, from that original, ONE only ‘true Pentecostal Church’, AT Jerusalem, having increased in angry persecution from those, having ‘at the first’ continued meeting, ‘IN THE TEMPLE’, ever since SOON after that PROMISED famous soon, like a MIGHTY ‘WIND’, coming, as Torah recorded, ‘day of Pentecost’, manifesting unto us for first time the manifestation FROM HEAVEN’s Holy Spirit “of PROMISE”, “of the F-ther”, WHO came down, as SENT by the F-ther, unto remaining DOWN HERE in this tiny footstool, until these local heavens are on real fire) when ‘THESE SEVEN SPIRITS of G-d’ also accompanying the coming of the promised genuine, REAL, HOLY SPIRIT “OF PROMISE”, these ‘angels’, having only the ‘tongues’, of ‘angels’, not mere men, actually had SAT next to each of the ‘qurom’ of seven men, amongst, & in the center of this upper room, where a Nation of Israel by law had required a ‘quorum’, required of ‘seven’ men of Israel , which as recorded included Peter, ‘in the midst’, of ‘upper room’, of the house, next to, near the Temple, at Jerusalem, & as required within Israel lawful ‘custom’, for any, all, not already officially ‘Priests’, for to call forth any ‘public’ attended & planned for any ‘worship service’, especially as being called for, within Judah’s Jerusalem ‘here below’, also on such a High Holy Day, such as this ‘annual celebration’ of the ‘giving’ of the LAW, by ‘angels’, who also accompanied Moses, unto ‘Israel’, even as ‘most attended’ of all ‘High Holy’ Days, in those very years, of those days, & within 10 days, of the literal, bodily, finale, complete separation of Messiah of Israel, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, from this tiny footstool ‘of HIS’, from His ‘chosen’. remaining ‘Eleven’, as by HIS stepping into at Mt. of Olivet, the extreme literal, ‘brightness’, of ‘angelic cloud’, witnessed by ‘the Eleven’ who having then followed Him, witnessed not only NOT seeing Him ever again, once He had stepped into that ‘brightness’ of ANGELIC ‘cloud’, literally also ‘two’, of those ‘angels’, when staying back saying, IN THIS very “SAME MANNER” of ‘angelic brightness’, the very “SAME” only “MANNER” would be repeated, in any future return, as promised, by Him, of His ‘parousia’, & by sacred ‘feet’ of ANGELS, which only were seen, by the ‘Eleven’, when suddenly, that ANGELIC ‘cloud’ began to rise FROM this Earth, & containing our now totally HIDDEN, even from them, OUR Messiah, totally & completely separated, from them, from us, from any also who had not ‘obeyed His command’, for to ‘tarry in Jerusalem’, instead had ‘followed Him’, only to have ANGELS say afterward to them just “why” are you standing “HERE”, & yet still gazing “HERE”, on Mt. Olivet, & not looking for the coming of the Holy Spirit of Promise UP into Heaven …when you know He specifically commanded for ‘you’, to tarry in Jerusalem, for to wait THERE, not to be looking for Messiah’s return, but instead, for the promised by Him, sure coming of the HOLY SPIRIT ‘of PROMISE’ of the F-ther ? What happened afterwards was ‘miracle’ being ‘in the HEARING’, by those as listed traveling guests who only HEARD verysame ‘high holy language’ as spoken by their ‘local Priest’ on same ‘high holy day’ in past, while all the others unable at all to ‘relate’, other than these ‘men are surely in violation of taking an intoxicated sedative’ on a ‘high holy day’, instead’, on this ‘high holy day’. There certainly was not any display of any sudden ‘miracle’ learning, of any then ‘known language’, of mere men, of that day !

  2. How wonderful it was that men of Galilee (who were not accustomed to speaking the other languages that came out of their mouth that Pentecost day but was understood by many of the people present, people from all over the area) spoke such things as the wonderful works of God.

    And doesn’t our Bibles begin and end with the wonderful works of God?

  3. Ray,

    There were some in the crowd that said that they were drunk. They were wrong…according to Peter.

    The crowd said that they were all Galileans. The Bible reports only what the crowd said to one another. The Bible does not say that they were all Galileans. Just like the Bible reports that some said they were drunk, but the Bible does not say that they were drunk.

    It is a fallacy to take what the crowd said as absolute truth. It is correct to believe that the crowd SAID that they were all Galileans. They may have been absolutely right or generally right or even wrong like when some thought they were drunk.

    To try to use what the crowd said about them all being Galileans to try to prove that it was only the Apostles that spoke in tongues is poor interpretation. This is what Benjamin is doing. I think that the 120 and the apostles all spoke in tongues. The 120 may well have all been Galileans, but they do not have to be, for the Bible only records that that is what the crowd said.

    Shalom

  4. Bo, Peter never corrected anyone as to the matter that the ones who spoke in tongues were Galileans, neither were they mocking, who made the statement.

    It seems unlikely to me that anyone would presume to know where 132 (or so) people were from, and it also would seem out of place if all of them were from Galilee, though not so odd if all of the 12 were.

    We know that the eleven were from Galilee because of the testimony of some in white apparel. (Acts 1:11)

    It seems most likely to me that it was the 12 who spoke in tongues and may have been standing as they did. ( Acts 2:14)

  5. Ray,

    Peter did not necessarily know that the crowd was discussing the fact that they all seemed to be Galileans…even if he did know, there would be no reason to correct such a thing by Him…it would be trivial. But the boisterous mockers would have been obvious and probably jeering loudly…this would need correcting to show that what was happening was of YHWH.

    Once again, the 120 may have all been Galileans or there may have been so many of them that were from Galilee that the crowd generalized them as such. One thing is certain. The scripture does not say that they were all Galileans. It only says that the crowd asked, “Are not all these which speak Galileans?”

    I am doubting that, with 120-132 people speaking in tongues, that this great multitude could have listened in on every single person and determined that they were all Galileans. I am sure that you could not listen to 120+ people speaking in tongues all at once and determine if they were all from New York City…and that accent is quite noticeable. You could maybe hear 10 or 20 clearly and generalize that they were all from NY…but you could not say for sure that all were.

    Peter did not stand up with the 11 until after the crowd was discussing the idea that all the speakers were from Galilee. He did not stand up with the 11 until the jeering about them being drunk got started.

    I think all 120-132+ were speaking in tongues. Do you?

    Shalom

  6. The ‘Eleven’ (and ‘women’, those who remained close to Messiah, those whom Jesus ‘loved’) were attending in an ‘upper room’ of a ‘house’ where 7 ‘men’ called for public worship ‘service’ of the ‘Eleven’ and those ‘close’ to Messiah, in attendance (when ALL had ‘fled’ His being ‘lifted up’ on His own cross between two ‘malefactors’ numbering Him with ‘criminals’ only, while those whom HE had ‘loved’ to the ‘end’, standing ‘afar’ off) seems to make clear those Eleven, whom He loved to the very end, carried with them the ‘list’, as was custom, up to first ‘120’, all who had ‘fled Him’, & all who had not attended this Jerusalem’s Pentecost Annual Feast, or certainly not near the Temple, nor within either this particular private ‘living quarters’, nor even it’s even smaller ‘upper room’, nearest the Main Temple ‘of still angry’ Jews, without their Sceptre).

  7. Bo,
    Here it is from the KJV:

    Acts 2:7
    And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak
    Galilaeans?

    Not all of the people there were Galilaens, however, of them which did the speaking in tongues, they were Galilaeans. It was those that spoke that were the Galilaeans, even though there may have been more Galilaeans in the group, those who were doing the speaking were Galileans.

    Acts 1:11
    …..Ye men of Galilee…

  8. This also might explain why the 12 were found standing, for they were speaking in tongues, and also were standing against the wolves, Peter in particular.

  9. Ray,

    “saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?”

    If we were in a big crowd and saw this and were amazed, when we spoke to one another about what we could see, we might say the same thing as these did. If someone wrote a history about what happened some 30 years later and had you and I as his sources of information, he could not say emphatically that all that spoke were Galileans. But he could truthfully report that the crowd said, “Aren’t these all Galileans.” Just because the crowd said something because of their impression does not mean that it was 100% accurate. Luke’s account is 100% accurate that the crowd thought and said something, but his account does not say that they were all Galileans.

    The apostles were not found standing. The stood up. Here is the literal Greek from Young’s literal translation:

    14 and Peter having stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and declared to them, ‘Men, Jews! and all those dwelling in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and harken to my sayings,

    Here are a few more:

    14 Then Peter stood with the Eleven around him, and raising his voice he addressed them, “Men of Judea and all you residents of Jerusalem, let me explain this to you, and give close attention to my words. (Williams)

    14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. (NIV)

    14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. (NAS)

    14 But Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them: “Men of Judah and all you residents of Jerusalem, let me explain this to you and pay attention to my words. (HCSB)

    14 Then Peter stood up among the eleven apostles and raised his voice to address them: “Men of Judea and everyone living in Jerusalem! You must understand something, so pay close attention to my words. (ISV)

    14 After this, Shimeon Kaypha arose with the eleven Apostles and he lifted up his voice and he said to them, “Men, Jews, and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give attention to my words.” (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

    14 Peter however, together with the Eleven, stood up and addressed them in a loud voice. “Men of Judaea, and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem,” he said, “be in no uncertainty about this matter but pay attention to what I say. (Weymouth New Testament)

    The crowd said what they said before Peter and the 11 stood up.

    You did not answer my question. Do you think that all 120 spoke in tongues?

    Shalom

  10. Delegations of ‘Jews’ swelling the numbers in Jerusalem on this ‘high Holy Day’ were mostly aware of ‘Galileans’ (as yet ‘unlearned’ by any officially trained ‘Priest’, or at best, whom they might have followed previously as officially trained Priest, or Temple Priest, determined hopelessly a ‘wine bibber’, & no longer allowed to carry forth any ‘duties’ in any Judean cities, especially within our City of Jerusalem and Temple ‘here below’) caused the few of those listed delegations amongst the many, then in ‘swelled attendance’, to announce to ‘the many’ of the ‘millions’ swelling attendance that year, that “we actually HEARD” them as ‘speaking’ (even as various Priests in our history, who at rare times had also been ‘HEARD’, ‘praising G-d’, in same rare ‘HIGH Holy language’, not ‘known’ as mere normal tongues of our presiding Priests, especially on final feast day, days of our own celebration, only afterwards our sacrificed lamb’s ‘sprinkled’ blood, upon our sacred place of especially our ‘fall feasts’, that great day of Atonement, of our ‘sin’ as a Nation, this being only ‘blood’, never to be ‘removed’, from where, it was then, ‘applied’ once, having been then once ‘sprinkled’ upon) in which all in attendance knew had never happened, nor ever was reported, as at anytime in Galilean ‘history’

  11. Bo,

    All this about “mostly”…I don’t know how that got in there. Several questions we could ask I suppose.

    1. So did the alegedly “mostly” Galileans, mostly speak in what was mostly tongues, and was this mostly a good Pentecost day or what?

  12. Bo, what does the scripture say about many witnesses? Is it such a strange thing then that I accept what they said, just as they said it, as far as I can plainly read it?

  13. Good morning.

    Hope everyone had a great weekend. I just read Post 95 (haven’t read the rest yet), just wanted to say that the rules of Greek grammar apply in the Bible, and Greek grammar points back to the 12, so it’s not just I who recognizes this, but the grammar of Greek itself. But Bo, was it I straining at ants/gnats? The 12/120 issue doesn’t concern the issue at large (timing of Spirit baptism). But I will address parts of the post regardless.

    You mentioned a lot of things that I agree with in a way that assumed I didn’t. But one section where I think some confusion came in is: “The 120 that were mentioned in Acts one are the ones that were gathered on the day of Pentecost. They were devout Jewish believers in Messiah and they were required to be in Jerusalem for the feast of Shavuot/Pentecost.” -Actually Luke is not referring to Jesus’ disciples when he says in Acts 2:5 – And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. – The devout men (and maybe you were not talking about 2:5) are traditional Jews who are devout to the feast days and hence traveled from every nation to Jerusalem for the feast days, and Luke tells us to emphasize that the population of the city was great at that time of Pentecost and large multitudes came to see what was going on when they heard of the gathering of believers.

    In Acts 1:11 we have the eleven specifically called “men of Galilee”

    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    So we have an angel identifying the eleven one chapter before Acts 2, as Galileans. Which connects the Apostles to Acts 2:7.

    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

    In the end, if it was the 12, awesome, if it was all 120, awesome, but according to the passage it appears to be the 12. If it was all 120, that changes nothing seeing that all the Gentiles spoke in tongues later on, etc. It wouldn’t change the subject matter of the discussion we are having.

    Another statement was: “Are we really to think that the 120 were all scattered or not in Jerusalem on this very special day? Are we to believe that it was only after the Spirit was poured out that they started gathering together in one accord? Are we to assume that these believers in a newly risen Messiah were not concerned with being with the few others that shared their faith?” – Not at all, I see no indication from Scripture that this was the case. What you have stated above is not something I have stated or hold to.

    “Because you have a belief that you are trying to justify instead of accepting what scripture indicates.” – Bo, I welcome correction. And maybe below 95 you do that, but I Haven’t presented anything that is not in Scripture, what belief am I trying to justify? You asked me where in Scripture it says that believers are baptized at salvation, I answered, is that the belief I am trying to justify?

    I will read on and respond as needed. Bo, let’s please talk about these issues with brotherly love without derailing each others intentions and character. Instead of saying I am blinded by some belief system, correct me where I am wrong with teaching. You and I can get stubborn, but that stubbornness intensifies when derailing comments are thrown out there. So all I ask is when I mention antecedents, etc, tell me why that grammatical rule does not apply here instead of just saying I am straining at “ants”.

    Hope you had a great weekend Bo. Time to read on.

  14. Bo, I have answered your above question in post 08 and 04 above, and maybe even other places.

    I suppose it makes me weird because I simply read what the scripture testifies about those who spoke in tongues. Since the scripture testifies that the multitude who heard the men of Galilee speak in tongues,they marveled and said one to another, “Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?..” , then am I so odd when I hear a man say, “Well, it must have been that they were mostly Galileans.”?, and I find it odd that a man would say “mostly” instead of “all”?

    And all the while the scripture instructs us to accept the testimony of many witnesses.

    Now is there a difference between “all” and “most”?

    Am I to be attacked because I believe that there is a difference?

    Yet there are some who are always attacking those who are on the right path. Truth is always being attacked by someone.

    And have you ever noticed that those who first accuse others of “grabbing at straws”, so often falsely do so, and are presently guilty of doing the very thing they accuse others of doing?

    And have you noticed that they fail to answer questions others ask them, and though others have answered their questions, they accuse them of not answering them?

    Their fruits are being made known.

    I see others who have the blessing of Genesis 12:3 on their lives, and I see them get attacked, and I see God honor that blessing, giving the attackers what they deserve….a long walk in darkness and stumbling.

    How I wish they would repent at times, and at other times, I just don’t care, for their ways will be made known unto all, and no one will want anything to do with them, except to expose their ways.

    I believe the 12 are the Galileans who spoke in tongues, and this caused the multitude that came together to marvel. So I believe the place where this all took place was in Jerusalem, very near the temple where the multitude was about. Some say this happened in the temple. Others say it happened near the entrance of the temple. Some others say it happened in an upper room of the temple. I believe it happened very near the temple. I’m not so sure about it happening in the temple, for it says the multitude came together after this was noised abroad, and that those who came were those who were dwelling at Jerusalem.

  15. Bo, as far as anyone else other than the 12 that spoke in tongues that day, I expect many did. Maybe all the thousands of souls that were added to the Church spoke in tongues that day. I just don’t know.

  16. Benjamin,

    Ac 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place. (ASV)

    I was not referring to the crowd gathered in Jerusalem as proof for the disciples being together a the feast of Pentecost. I was referring to the fact that they, being obedient believers, would be there and that they would likely be with those they with whom they fellowshipped and with their new leaders. So the “all together” almost certainly includes the 120 that were mentioned in the dialogue.

    I know the rule of grammar that the antecedent of a pronoun is the nearest previous agreeable noun, but Koine Greek, in which Luke was writing, does not always adhere to that rule. Also the prophecy Peter quoted as fulfilled, seems to require a larger group which must include females and laity…not just male leaders. For Joel’s words to be fulfilled, we have to have sons and daughters prophesying and servants and handmaidens having the Spirit poured out upon them and not just the Apostles.

    Shalom

  17. Benjamin,

    Allow me to add:

    Acts 1
    14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
    15 And in these days Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, and said (and there was a multitude of persons gathered together, about a hundred and twenty), (ASV)

    The apostles were commanded to remain in Jerusalem until they were Baptized with the Holy Spirit. I am sure they were expecting something great and had passed that enthusiasm to the other believers.

    From Acts one, we know that they were all living together with, the women, Mary, and Messiah’s brethren. Then we find out that there were 120 disciples.

    So the apostles, out of obedience, were already all together in one place. So the beginning of Acts 2 seems to be the gathering of all the disciples.

    Moreover, Messiah’s brethren may have simply been his earthly relatives or they may have been the 120 disciples.

    Lu 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

    Shalom

  18. Thanks Bo, I do not argue that the others were not present. Just that the “all” of 2:1 refers to all the Apostles, further evidenced from the Galilean references.

    Regarding Joel, I typically hear folks say that this was a taste of what will ultimately happen around the Great Tribulation. Specially since not everything Peter quotes, happened at Pentecost but is said to happen during the Tribulation.

    Acts 2:18-20

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    Unless the moon went to blood without anyone recording it. Or Israel was nationally regenerated back then. For the prophecy was concerning national Israel, turn to Joel 2 verse 27, this verse comes one verse before Peter’s quotation.

    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

    And then the immediate verse that follows the quotation, 32:

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

    Which ties into Paul’s comments about all Israel being saved, all will call on the name of the Lord. Also the Lord’s words in the Gospels as found in Luke 13:35:

    35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    So in Joel, Israel will never be ashamed when the prophecy is fulfilled, but at the time of Jesus and Pentecost their house was left to them desolate. Pentecost was a taste of that ultimate fulfillment to come when all Israel welcome the Messiah.

  19. Benjamin,

    The obvious dividing line in the Joel prophesy is not right after the word “sons.” The Spirit being poured out on both male and female and both male and female prophesying is the immediate context, with the judgement coming later. So verse 19 is the obvious division between what was happening then and what will happen later.

  20. Benjamin,

    Historically, Biblical commentators saw the 120 as all having the Spirit poured out upon them and them all speaking in tongues. The Spirit was poured out upon the whole body of believers without respect of persons. Not until recently was the antecedent idea brought up to counteract the claims of Pentecostals. And it doesn’t square with the whole context.

    As far as the crowd asking, “Are not these all Galileans?”…I have already answered that pretty fully in many posts above. Them generalizing does not equate to the Bible declaring it to be so.

  21. It seems that Ray and myself just find the answer given to be lacking in substance, and unconvincing. Like I have said, it doesn’t change any doctrine either way if it was 12 or 120. The Holy Spirit was sent, the promise of God to the apostles was fulfilled, a number of people spoke in tongues (12/120), it doesn’t effect the timing of being Spirit baptized.

  22. Benjamin,

    Acts 11
    1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
    2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

    Peter is going to answer the apostles and brethren.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    To the apostles and brethren, not just to the apostles, Peter said “US” to the apostles and brethren. Seems like there were brethren spoken of in Acts 1 and 2.

  23. Ray,

    The crowd was not being a witness in a court trial. They were conversing in a casual and excited manner. Their intent was not to express absolute truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Their words were spontaneous ejaculation of what was surprising to them. Luke relates the event as such. He only relates what the crowd said and not a statement of fact. Some of the crowd said that the apostles were drunken. There were more than one in the crowd that said this. Only Peter said otherwise. By your standard, the crowd was correct and Peter was a false single witness.

  24. Benjamin,

    You wrote:
    “It seems that Ray and myself just find the answer given to be lacking in substance, and unconvincing.”

    Yep, but to many wise and knowledgeable Bible commentaries and to countless thousands, my comments have substance. What do you think Dr. Brown thinks?

  25. Oh I have no doubt Bo. I always enjoyed J Vernon McGee’s saying (paraphrasing), “If you differ with me on this, Oh there are fine, many fine Bible teachers and great men of God who differ with me so you are in good company! But if you want to be right…. you’ll agree with me. ha.” 😉 Or something along those lines.

  26. As for Dr. Brown. I would take a guess and say he most likely would says it was the 120. But I don’t divide with him over this. I often raise questions where I differ with Mike. I consider him a great brother in the Lord, but we do have our differing understandings.

  27. Benjamin,

    A wise man once said, “If Dr. Brown and I agree, it has to be right.” 🙂

    It might take me a couple of days to get back to the real meat of the issue of the difference between being baptized into the body of Messiah by the Holy Spirit and being baptized with the Holy Spirit by Messiah. I have some pressing issues here that I should give some attention to.

    Shalom

  28. Bo, Remember that the scriptures were not written to deceive people. When the scripture testifies that a multitude of people agreed, witnessing among themselves that those who spoke in tongues were Galileans, I think it’s written so that we might know that truth about the matter.

    I find it interesting that the only ones mentioned in Acts prior to the verse in question, (Acts 2:7) who were among the 120 or so, that we know were from Galilee, were all apostles.

    Furthermore, their testimony (plural) was that they heard every one in their own language wherein they were born.

    How many people speaking in tongues do you suppose they heard? I’m thinking 12, for if tongues was spoken by 12, and that by course, it could be plainly heard what they spoke, especially if they happened to be standing as they spoke, which thing is not uncommon in public meetings, so that all may hear.

    The record of scripture on this naturally flows, and we find Peter standing with the eleven, who may have been standing because they were speaking in tongues on this outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and also because they would be the ones, the leadership who would stand against the scoffers who would be about to mislead and destroy the flock.

    When Peter said “these” in Acts 2:15, it seems to me that he was referring to the eleven that were standing with him.

  29. Ray,

    So you think that 12 men spoke at least 18 languages loud enough for thousands to hear and understand? How much more likely that 120 spoke so that thousands could hear and understand. It was not by course, but all at once. It looked like a bunch of drunk people to the mockers. One person standing at a time in order would not look like that.

    Every other time that a group had the Spirit poured out upon them the whole group spoke in tongues and the Spirit fell upon them all. THe women, Mary and Messiah’s brethren, whether physical or spiritual were there. The 120 were there for they were the body of Messiah. He poured out His Spirit on His body, not just a few. I am going on to the more important issue of the difference between the baptism with the Spirit by Messiah and the baptism into the body of Messiah by the Spirit.

  30. Yeah, like you can understand what people are saying when so many all speak at once.

    I wonder if any of the apostles spoke in kinds of tongues that morning.

  31. Ray,

    You are right…YHWH is not a respecter of persons. He pours His Spirit out on those that obey Him…on those that fear Him and work righteousness. You are saying that the 120 didn’t fear and obey YHWH.

    Ac 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

  32. I was in a church where there were times when we all spoke in tongues at once. It only happened at the last session of a foundational class, where the new students were afforded the opportunity to practice what they had been learning, and do it among so many others, at the same time.

    This was a wonderful opportunity to take a step in faith, and in so doing, it would be very difficult for anyone to make out whatever you said, though someone walking by (such as leadership who might be wanting to hear the new people, or help them out a bit) could be able to put their ear close enough to you to make out some sounds you are speaking, and see if it flows and has the sounds of a particular language.

    This also helped it seems to me, because when there is so much commotion of sounds going on at the same time in a room, one tends to find it difficult to concentrate with the mind, for all of the “noise” and distractions, which seems to help provide a good surrounding, a fertile ground for the receiving of the manifestation of speaking in tongues, for it seems the manifestation bypasses the mind. We simply spoke what we had (were given) to say at the time we spoke, and as we kept speaking, more was given, one sound at a time, the Spirit of God feeding our spirit, and our spirit feeding our physical being, in a marvelous connection that is given a Christian.

    So if the 12, or however many that first received on that Pentecost day, all spoke at the same time, I believe it would be noticed that something marvelous was going on, but it would be very difficult to make it out enough to understand the speech, unless there came a time when each spoke by course.

  33. Bo, again you walk in false accusation because you left the cross behind you.

    How does anything I have posted say that the 120 were not fearing God?

    Please repent of your destructive foolishness. It’s a cheap personal attack.

  34. Ray,

    You say that the 120 did not receive the Spirit and speak in tongues, but only the 12. YHWH is not a respecter of persons. He poured His Spirit out on all flesh that was part of His body. The different language groups understood in their own tongue. Your church leaders did not understand the tongues that were being spoken in your group that was speaking all at once. No destructive foolishness here. You might want to examine your own heart. No personal attack here. You might want to examine your posts to me.

  35. Bo, you should not accuse others when it’s you that is doing the accusing. You accused me. I did not accuse any of the 120 or so. From what I can read of the account in Acts 2, it seems the best I can make of it is that it was the 12 apostles (the men of Galilee) who first received speaking in tongues into manifestation that day. Others may have received it right after. That’s what it looks like to me. That in no way says anything evil about the others of the 120 or so.

    Bo, you don’t need to inform me that the church leadership didn’t understand the tongues they heard. I am fully aware of that. What they were listening for is if people were speaking in tongues.

    You should recognize your sin, and take to the Lord in prayer to be forgiven it, or you will continue to do the same in the future.

  36. Ray,

    Sometimes it is the pot that calls the kettle black. You are accusing me of accusing you. You are judging me that I judged you. I remember many times that you accused and spoke/wrote derogatorily of me and others. You just used veiled language or spoke in generalizations in order to deflect your guilt or to seem to not be doing what you were doing. You usually start those comments off with, “I wonder” or “sometimes.” I did not accuse you. Get over it.

  37. Ray,

    Your post # 79 says:
    “I wonder how many Christians walk around today always judging others, thinking they are doing so by the power of God, when really they are just walking as carnal men.”

  38. Bo, You did accuse me. You accused me of saying the 120 were not walking in the fear of God, something I had not done.

    Repent of lying. If you do not, it is another sin you will repeat, for those that commit sin become the servants of it. He came to set the captives free.

  39. Ray,

    O how about post 134 on “Does God require all believers to observe Torah?

    You wrote:
    “I wonder if legalists know that people can not live under the old covenant and the new covenant together?

    I wonder if they know that it’s like rending a garment.

    I wonder if they do this out of hatred for God, or is it ignorance?

    They will be judged for not living according to the light they have been given.

    Sometimes I wonder if they do this to deliberately destroy the work of God.”

    Post 343 “I wonder if this is how legalists read Romans:”

    But why belabor the point. Just stop judging and casting dispersion on others and you will not be judged.

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