Does God Require All Believers to Observe the Torah?

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Dr. Brown dialogues with Tim Hegg on the question of whether God wants both Jewish and Gentile believers to observe the written Torah. The phone lines will be open for discussion and questions! Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I encourage you as a follower of Jesus, Yeshua, to major on the majors, knowing Him, becoming like Him, and making Him known.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Look at the chaos, the craziness of the world, the rise of radical Islam, and let us answer with a radical Jesus movement!

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Other Resources:

Difficult Passages in the Torah and the Believer Today

The Messiah in the Torah and Answers to Jewish Objections

Dr. Brown and Rabbi Shmuley Discuss Myths and Facts about Israel, the Palestinians, and the Peace Process

1,949 Comments
  1. Ray wrote:
    “Paul…wasn’t one who put himself under the law to keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, eat only meats specified by the law as clean to be eaten, set aside all other activities for every Jewish holyday, or keep track of new moons, for these things he made mention of in his letter to the church in Colosse, (Col 2:16) and warned the church in Galatia of the same. (see Gal 4:9,10) and told them to be as he was. (Gal 4:12)”

    Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    What you say of Paul, Paul refutes. He testified in court that He did not break the law. He proved to thousands that he “walkest orderly and keepest the law.” “Walkest” and “keepest” have continuous action endings. I know it is hard for you to accept that Paul was not what you want him to be, but the truth is the truth.

    Concerning Galatians 4:12…

    Ga 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all…
    (As has been proved, Paul continued to keep the law. He had stopped keeping the manmade traditions of Judaism. He wrote earlier in Galatians, “And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”-Ga 1:14

    16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
    17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
    18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
    (The truth is that it is good to be zealous for the law, but not for the traditions of Judaism. Paul proved to the thousands that were zealous for the law that he also continued to keep the law. If it was a bad thing, Paul would not have proved himself to be a law keeper.)

    Ray has become my enemy, and Paul’s, because I tell him the truth. About all he can do is insult and accuse. Ray also referenced Galatians 4:9-10. Let’s look at what is said in context.

    Ga 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
    (So the Galatians were formerly idolaters. They served false deities.)

    9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
    (What were they returning to? It could not have been to the Biblical holy days, for they were not invented by man nor were they worship to false deities. What are weak and beggarly elements, then? Paul wrote, “Beware lest any one make a prey of you through an empty and deceitful philosophy, -according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.”-Col 2:8 The traditions of men are the elements that Paul speaks of. The elements of Messiah are His Father’s law. Paul wrote, “For, when, by this time, you ought to be teachers, you have need of some one to teach you again the first elements of the oracles of God; and have become such as need milk, rather than solid food.”-Heb 5:12 The “oracles of God” is the scripture that existed in Paul’s day…the Law and the Prophets. Paul thought that those that did not know these elements was a baby instead of mature.)

    10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
    (Paul continued to keep the law and we know that he only used YHWH’s feasts as time references. How can he tell the Corinthians to keep the feast of Unleavened Bread and tell them that he would remain in Ephesus until Pentecost, after he told the Galatians that they should not mess with days, months, times, and years? Paul is either telling the Galatians to not go back to practicing their old calendar of paganism with it’s references to false deities or to not go by the commandments of men concerning YHWH’s feast days, or both, because Paul himself still kept YHWH feast days and told the Galatians to be as he is. He rejected the commandments of men that he learned in Judaism, but he still kept the law which tells us when and how to keep YHWH’s holy days.)

    So Ray, once again, does not believe what is written. He referenced one more passage of scripture. Let’s see the context:

    Co 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    (The “principalities” and “powers” here are the Jewish religious leaders. The Greek words are used of synagogue leaders. Messiah showed openly, during His earthly ministry, that their commandments of men had made their worship vain. He said, “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”-Mr 7:7-9)

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
    (The ones that were trying to bring the Colossians into subjection to their teachings was the Jewish religious leaders. Verse 16 says “therefore.” In other words, “because” Messiah had shown the Jewish religious leaders to be teaching commandments of men instead of YHWH’s commandments, we should not let them tell us how to eat and drink out of specially washed cups and with their version of ritual hand washing. We should not let them tell us that we have to incorporated their other manmade traditions concerning YHWH’s Sabbath and holy days. We should not use their corrupt calendar that is not scriptural. Why? Because if we obey men instead of YHWH concerning His appointed times, we are not showing the true representation of Messiah’s redemptive work and we have forsaken Messiah for other masters, namely the rabbis.)

    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
    (The word “angels” above can be translated messengers or ministers. When we obey Judaism, instead of YHWH’s Torah, our worship is actually of those that teach these commandments of men. They do not accept Messiah. They are not allowed to be our judges.)

    20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    (The ordinances that we are not to keep is the ones that man invents. The commandments and doctrines of men are the rudiments/elements of the world. YHWH’s commandments are not worldly beggerly elements. They are higher thoughts and ways than ours. We outsmart ourselves when we think that we can disregard YHWH’s commandments.)

    Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Ray thinks that he is smart to disregard YHWH’s law, but he is really just obeying the fleshly elements of the world in keeping the pagan calendar and refusing YHWH’s calendar. His mind will not accept YHWH’s law.

    Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    I posted this again, so that Ray would not miss it.

  2. “Look at me, world! I am special because I got the 1802nd post! Delight in me as I delight in myself everyone! I am my delight and I ought to be your delight too! I AM SPECIAL DELIGHT IN ME PRAISE ME! FORGET ABOUT GOD! PRAISE ME!”

    Sound like anyone you know?

  3. I am sorry, because I prefer to tell Good News of God’s Grace so people will rejoice (in God) and not to make people sorry with what I say; but I can’t imagine that those who rebel against the Glorious Light of the Good News of God’s Glorious Grace are NOT going to fall under God’s wrath for their hard and impenitent heart of rebellion against God’s righteousness. These people KNOW the Truth they’ve been shown, and are willingly and stubbornly rebellious, “whose mouths must be stopped.”

    False witnesses of God! YOU WILL PAY for your insubordination–your disobedience to the Truth in the Day of Wrath!

  4. Dan1el wrote:
    “Look at me, world! I am special because I got the 1802nd post! Delight in me as I delight in myself everyone! I am my delight and I ought to be your delight too! I AM SPECIAL DELIGHT IN ME PRAISE ME! FORGET ABOUT GOD! PRAISE ME!

    Sound like anyone you know?”

    Sounds like you.

    You obviously do not know a joke when you see it. I am guessing that you do not what this 🙂 means. I guess you and Ray are cut from the same cloth. Insults and accusations but no proof.

  5. Dan1el wrote:
    “…I can’t imagine that those who rebel against the Glorious Light of the Good News of God’s Glorious Grace are NOT going to fall under God’s wrath for their hard and impenitent heart of rebellion against God’s righteousness. These people KNOW the Truth they’ve been shown, and are willingly and stubbornly rebellious, “whose mouths must be stopped.””

    Well let me see…hmmm? What did Paul say about this?

    Titus 1
    11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake….
    (I have never charged or asked for a dime for the proclamation of truth.)

    14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    (I constantly warn against being subject to Judaism and the commandments of Churchianity that has made YHWH’s commandments of none effect.)

    15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
    (The pure do not break YHWH’s commandments. John wrote:
    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    (John also wrote:
    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Paul told us where to be instructed in righteousness and throughly furnished unto good works.

    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    But Dan1el refuses to believe Paul.)

    Whose mouth should be stopped? Not the ones that teach what Paul did. What did Paul teach in strongest of terms?

    1) That the law is not void or abolished:

    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    2) That we know what sin is by what the law says:

    Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…

    3) That we may not continue to break YHWH’s law because of grace:

    Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    4) That the law is holy, just, good and spiritual.

    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid….
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    5) That the carnal minded person will not be able to agree to keep YHWH’s law.

    Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Those that rebel against the above teachings are not really walking in YHWH’s glorious grace. They believe a false gospel. The willfully continue in sin because they ignore YHWH’s law. The do despite to the Spirit of grace. Grace does not allow us to break YHWH’s law.

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Who is YHWH’s wrath revealed from heaven against?

    Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    (Those that know YHWH’s law and refuse to keep it are holding the truth in unrighteousness.)

    Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    (YHWH’s word is truth and man is to live by every word of YHWH…including His law.)

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God…
    (Paul told us to find out what good works are in YHWH’s law. You cannot work good by refusing to keep YHWH’s law.)

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    (Paul and James agree that we must be doers of YHWH’s word.)

    So Dan1el, why are your stubbornly rebellious against YHWH’s law? Why do you preach false grace? Why do you preach another “Jesus” that abolished the law?

  6. Bo,

    Why do you love to make Paul into the hypocrite by constant contradiction of the truth he lays out? That’s crazy.

    He wasn’t the kind of guy that had all kinds of confidence in the law, and then scold the church for doing the same.

    Such an idea is ridiculous.

    So it seems you have a ministry of hypocrisy. You want to make Paul into the hypocrite that he wasn’t, and you want to promote the same hypocrisy whenever you post on this thread.

    Do you think that work of yours somehow justifies your hypocrisy? You paint a dream, a fantasy.

    The Bible is reality, not Disneyworld.

    Imagine a man who withstands Peter to his face for fearing the circumcision who were all about the law, who had confidence in it, as if keeping the jots and tittles of it were the way to live, (see Galatians 2) and then is all about the very life he rebukes others for.

    It’s stupid. Do you think it’s funny making up your version of what the truth is? It’s lies and hypocrisy.

    Did God love hypocrisy when his people were under the law? No he did not. God doesn’t like hypocrisy. The law was clearly against it.

    One of the ways Paul established the law was by standing against hypocrisy when he saw it, and warning people against going back into the bondage of the law which had been abolished by the body of Christ on the cross.

    One thing the law had was respect unto the sacrifices that were offered on account of sins, something that was not the real thing, but spoke of Christ himself, who is the real lamb of God.

    We on this thread, ask the same respect of you.

    Why violate the law in that regard? It is no small matter.

    Just repent of your sins and be healed in the name of Jesus.

  7. Dan1el,

    You wrote:
    “Bo,
    I’m not getting pulled into that trap.
    You can have the last word.”

    It is not a trap. It is the truth and you cannot refute it. You had a chance to apologize for accusing, insulting and misrepresenting me. Do you know what 🙂 means? I will let YHWH have the last word.

    Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

  8. Bo,

    We refer you to all the scriptures you post in the name of hypocrisy. Read those as if they presently apply to you, for they do. Then take the necessary action they require, and repent.

    Get free of your mishandling of the word of life, which was not given by God into this world for your carnal pleasure for you to do with whatever you see fit.

  9. Ray wrote:
    “Why do you love to make Paul into the hypocrite by constant contradiction of the truth he lays out? That’s crazy.”

    I do not. I just quote what he said and what Luke wrote about him. Here it is again:

    Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    Why do you not believe what is written? I think it is that carnal mind thing going on again.

    Ray wrote:
    “He wasn’t the kind of guy that had all kinds of confidence in the law, and then scold the church for doing the same.

    Such an idea is ridiculous.”

    Your are right it is ridiculous. But is what is more ridiculous is that you think that I said anything of the sort about Paul. You just do not understand what I write or what the Bible says. I never said that Paul had any confidence in the law.

    Ray wrote:
    “So it seems you have a ministry of hypocrisy. You want to make Paul into the hypocrite that he wasn’t, and you want to promote the same hypocrisy whenever you post on this thread.

    Do you think that work of yours somehow justifies your hypocrisy? You paint a dream, a fantasy.

    The Bible is reality, not Disneyworld.”

    The above is just accusation, insult, character assassination, and rhetoric. You just cannot refute what I have posted from the Bible, so you resort to the devils tactics.

    Raywrote:
    “Imagine a man who withstands Peter to his face for fearing the circumcision who were all about the law, who had confidence in it, as if keeping the jots and tittles of it were the way to live, (see Galatians 2) and then is all about the very life he rebukes others for.”

    You are imagining things that are not true. The circumcision party was about commandments of men, not keeping YHWH’s torah. There is no law in the Bible that says that Jews cannot eat with gentiles or go into their homes. Peter went back to the Jewish oral law instead of walking uprightly in YHWH’s torah. Paul rebuked Peter for going back under the Jewish oral law that was manmade traditions.

    Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

    Living like a Jew is living by a manmade law of commandments contained in ordinances. YHWH’s word is truth. The truth of the gospel in no way contradicts or abolishes YHWH’s law which is also truth.

    Ray wrote:
    “It’s stupid. Do you think it’s funny making up your version of what the truth is? It’s lies and hypocrisy.

    Did God love hypocrisy when his people were under the law? No he did not. God doesn’t like hypocrisy. The law was clearly against it.”

    I do not think it is funny at all that you misrepresent me and Paul. Who is the liar?

    1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Ray wrote:
    “One of the ways Paul established the law was by standing against hypocrisy when he saw it, and warning people against going back into the bondage of the law which had been abolished by the body of Christ on the cross.”

    Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth

    Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ESV

    Both Messiah and Paul say that the law was not abolished. Keeping the law is not bondage. It is the perfect law of liberty. Paul was against trusting in work, even works of the law for being justified or saved. He was not against keeping the law. He continued to keep the law and told us to follow his example.

    Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    Ray wrote:
    “One thing the law had was respect unto the sacrifices that were offered on account of sins, something that was not the real thing, but spoke of Christ himself, who is the real lamb of God.

    We on this thread, ask the same respect of you.

    Why violate the law in that regard? It is no small matter.”

    I do not violate the law in this regard. You should speak for yourself instead of saying “we on this thread.” You take to much upon you.

    Ray wrote:
    “Just repent of your sins and be healed in the name of Jesus.” I do and am. The problem is that you absolutely refuse to repent of you transgression of YHWH’s law, which is sin. You need to practice what you preach. Who is the hypocrite?

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

  10. Ray wrote:
    “We refer you to all the scriptures you post in the name of hypocrisy. Read those as if they presently apply to you, for they do. Then take the necessary action they require, and repent.

    Get free of your mishandling of the word of life, which was not given by God into this world for your carnal pleasure for you to do with whatever you see fit.”

    Speak for yourself Ray. You are not “we.” I do read them as if they presently apply to me. I have taken action. You have not. Who is mishandling the word? Let’s do a survey.

    What does Ray say? Paul didn’t continue to keep the law.

    What does scripture say?

    Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    What does Ray say? Messiah abolished the law.

    What does scripture say?

    Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth

    Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ESV

    Who does Ray say is mishandling the word? Bo.

    Who is mishandling the word according to the facts? Ray

  11. Bo,
    1. After everything is said and done, I do not wish to see any harm come to you on that Day, but for you to be found in Christ (not having a righteousness of your own from the Law but from God through faith in Christ [Philippians 3:9]). Since God has been so gracious and patient with me, I can’t see why I couldn’t be that way with you.

    2. According to your interpretation of that verse from Revelation, are you teaching the same heresy you were warned not to teach (which you denied teaching)–that men who do not serve God according to the Written Code forfeit their place in God’s Paradise?

    3. You have a right to ask such questions–how such statements comport with what I teach–but don’t you know not to make statements like “men who do not live “under the Law” (even if you may not prefer that phrase, “obligated to serve God by the Law” is the Biblical meaning of the phrase)? Of course, I ask myself the hard questions. There are a number I do not have the answer to. For instance, can salvation be lost? There are verses which seem to teach both views (it can and cannot be) and I don’t know how to reconcile them. Yes, every person who wishes to live by Scripture faces difficulties in reconciling certain verses–and you have a legitimate right to ask about the verse from Revelation.

    Why does God tell men to do one thing, and not another? Certain things are things which comport with His character–in other words, certain things “please” Him, and other things “displease” Him. 1 John 3 tells us that those who “keep His Commandments and do the things which are pleasing to Him” have confidence when they pray; and Philippians 2:12,13 says “it is God Who is at work in us to will and do for His good pleasure.”
    It is very simple: those who are in the Spirit DO fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law, because there is no Law against the fruit of the Spirit; only those who are not abiding in Christ, His abundance of Grace, and the free gift of righteousness [Ro 5:17] (this is “God working in us to will and do for His Good pleasure”) are slaves to the Torah of Sin. We do the things which are pleasing to God (believe in the Name of His Son, and love one another) by the power and Grace of God, as it says, “Grace establishes the Law” but “apart from the Law” which is why the Gentiles who neither know the Law and or are circumcised can be called “doers of the Law justified”: the Spirit of God is writing the Law (the things God is pleased for them to do) on their hearts. They are serving not after the old way of the written code (as you wish for men to do) but the new way of the Spirit.

    I hope this helps.

  12. Bo,

    Many on this thread notice your hypocrisy and mishandling of the scripture. We know that the apostle Paul was all about the gospel, and not one to go about turning others out of the way, and back under law, as you are about doing.

    Repent of your foolishness, in the name of Jesus.
    Get free of legalism.

  13. Bo,
    People who are taken captive and enslaved to the Torah of Sin in the flesh automatically sin no matter what they do or how hard they try not so (one example was Paul’s covetousness [Ro 7]) because Sin is working ITS OWN WORKS in them.

    People who are under the Torah of the Spirit of Life in Christ are “set free” from enslavement to the Torah of Sin [Ro 8:2], and they have God working HIS OWN WORKS in them (as opposed to how Sin was once working its own works in the men) so that they automatically are doers of righteousness (just as they once were automatically sinners).
    Coveting was an INVISIBLE work Sin worked in Paul, but it disqualified Paul from being called a “doer of the Law” (since, “if you offend in one point you are guilty of all”–sort of like how breaking a tablet of stone in one point, you have broken the entire tablet of stone). Beside the fact that we are declared righteous before we do anything (righteousness is imputed apart from any works at all [Ro 4:1-8]) “loving God” is one INVISIBLE work God works in us, and this (along with other things God is working into peoples’ hearts) qualifies them as “doers of the Law” (though God’s righteousness–the righteousness they are exhibiting–is explicitly revealed “apart from the Law” [Ro 3:21]) [Ro 2:13-15].

  14. Ray,

    If you have a point to make, please make it from the scripture. You have been proven wrong by the scripture over and over. If all you can do is assert that I am wrong or that there are some that think that I am wrong, it means nothing if it cannot be done by scripture. If proven you wrong over and over by the scripture. If you are an honest man, explain why the scriptures I quote do not meant what the seem to. You have utterly failed to do so and only offer insult and assertion. It is time to “put up or shut up” as the saying goes.

  15. The reason the apostle Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem, even after people prophesied as to what would happen to him, being bound, and having affliction there, and asking him not to go, was because he thought he could win those who were his kinsmen according to the flesh, to the gospel.

    He didn’t go there because they were not shaving their heads enough, or taking enough vows, it was to persuade them in things pertaining to the kingdom of heaven, to win them over to the gospel instead of living under the old covenant, for the law teaches men to love God first and one’s neighbor as himself.

    Thereby Paul was establishing the law, in persuading men to believe in Jesus and his resurrection, and not to have confidence in the letter of the law as they had been doing.

    It’s what love does.

  16. A stray portion of a sentence occurred while I was speeding along. Please remove: ” If proven you wrong over and over by the scripture.”

  17. Bo, the scripture has been spoken to you time and time again, but you have not been listening to it. God loved this world so much that he sent Jesus his Son, his only begotten Son, who came from him, from the realm of the Spirit, and began a new life in the womb of Mary, so that men might not perish but have everlasting life.

  18. Dan1el,

    There are scores and scores of passages that show that truly righteous people do the righteousness. The same goes for holy people doing holiness. The law spells out what we should expect form those that YHWH has made holy and righteousness. If these things are lacking in abundance and continually, the person is not righteous or holy. Instruction in holiness and righteousness comes from YHWH’s Torah.

    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

    YHWH gave us his scripture so that we could look in the mirror and know where we stand as far as living up to His idea of holiness and righteousness. This is why we have Peter and John and James and Paul reminding us that if our lives are not looking like what the Torah says, something is wrong.

    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law…
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    If we have hope and the promise of being YHWH’s children and seeing Him as He is, we are diligent to hear and do what the Torah says about righteousness and holiness. It doesn’t happen automatically. We are to apply ourselves.

  19. When a legalist types up scripture verses in a way that mishandles the scripture, it’s a counterfeit word, and is not the word of God, whereas when a man who has some understanding of the scripture, he may convey the truth in his own choice of words if he is led by the spirit of God. When he does that the scripture is being told, for the truth of it is being conveyed by the things he says.

  20. Ray wrote:
    “It’s no contradiction to say that Paul established the law by helping others get free of it.”

    It is a stupid contradiction…foolish assertion…an unfounded idea. Paul never said anything of the sort. He wanted them free from sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. If the law is abolished, there is no such thing as sin and grace means nothing. If the law exists, grace means a lot.

  21. Bo,
    Will you please give a direct response to what I’ve said? Be honest with yourself and with us. Stop hurting yourself and others by embracing fantasies.

  22. Ray wrote:
    “Bo, the scripture has been spoken to you time and time again, but you have not been listening to it.”

    I have proved over and over that you are the one that will not listen to scripture. Case in point:

    The scripture says:

    Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    And you say that Paul did not continue to keep the law. Who is not listening?

  23. Living under the letter of the law when God wants men to live by the gospel of his Son, is sin, when they know that is what they should be doing instead. If they have heard enough to believe and to know the difference, it is sin.

  24. Ray wrote:
    “When a legalist types up scripture verses in a way that mishandles the scripture, it’s a counterfeit word, and is not the word of God, whereas when a man who has some understanding of the scripture, he may convey the truth in his own choice of words if he is led by the spirit of God. When he does that the scripture is being told, for the truth of it is being conveyed by the things he says.”

    Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    I accept and believe what these scriptures obviously state. Ray does not. What Spirit is Ray of?

  25. Dan1el wrote:
    “Will you please give a direct response to what I’ve said? Be honest with yourself and with us. Stop hurting yourself and others by embracing fantasies.”

    You have said nothing that I have not responded to either in the past of present. The fantasy is that one can be a hearer only of YHWH’s perfect law without putting it into practice and not be deceived. This is the fantasy that you and Ray uphold to the max.

  26. Bo,
    Sin is NOT transgression of the Law.

    Romans 4:15
    because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Romans 5:14
    Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

    Sin DOES exist without the Law, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Sin is “indulgence of the flesh” [Col 2:23], or “desires of the flesh” [Gal 5:16], or “being a slave to the Torah of Sin in the flesh” [Ro 7:7-24], or “the desire of the eye, the desire of the flesh and the boastful pride of life” [1 J 2:15,16]. These all are perfect definitions of what sin is, and it can and does happen where there is no Law. All sins are not transgressions, but all transgressions are sins: the one (transgression) is a sub-category of the other (sin).

    i. There are times the Law is transgressed and it did not result from sin (Jesus used the example of David eating the shewbread unlawful for him to eat), so NOT all transgression of the Law is sin.
    ii. The vast majority of the time men sin it is not “transgression” since they are not even under the Law and there is no transgression where there is no Law (e.g., “the Gentiles who do not have the Law”).
    iii. Only when those who are under the Law sin is their sin converted into a “transgression”, because they were given prior knowledge of right vs. wrong.

    Sin happens in a place wholly “apart from the Law”, and so must righteousness happen in that same place “apart from the Law” [Ro 3:21].

  27. Paul continued to keep the righteousness of the law, even as he became as a Jew that he might win the Jews to the gospel. He didn’t take a vow, and have his head shaved in order to live in full confidence of the law as if it had the power to save the souls of men, for that power is reserved to the gospel itself, and that was what he was about and not the keeping of every letter of the law.

    His work of God which Jesus called him to was to bring men out from under the law which was abolished, and into the new covenant of God, which is the gospel of Christ, for only by it will men have salvation. That is the work he was about doing on his way to Jerusalem.

  28. Bo,
    Will you pretty please do us a favor and answer them again? Please do not give links. I want everyone to see the answers you claim suffice.

  29. Dan1el,

    Everything that you call indulgence of the flesh, there is a law against and thus it is sin and transgression of the law.

  30. Transgressing the law is sin even if a man is not under the law, (but might not be accounted to the man as such because of the grace of God) but to know what the law really is about, one must be led by the spirit of God and not by the letter of it. Living by the letter of the law contrary to the spirit of God is also sin, and is transgressing the law.

  31. Bo,
    1. I think you missed the point: sin happens even where there is no Torah, only sin done under Torah is transgression, and not all transgression of Torah is sin. Because of these reasons, sin is not transgression of the Law. It’s just not a good definition. You gotta get to a more elemental level to find a proper definition.

    2. And the only way to stop the indulgence of the flesh is by destroying the Body of Sin [Ro 6:6] with the Law of Sin [Ro 7]; the Law can’t do it. After we are set free from Sin’s Torah, and we are under the Torah of the Spirit of Life in Christ we have God working His own works in us which makes us doers of the Law. We are therefore “serving after the newness of the Spirit” and “establishing the Law” “apart from the Law” [Ro 3:21].
    What did you think about the fact that the righteousness of God is revealed “apart from the Law”? Feel free to answer.

  32. Bo,
    “Everything you call indulgence of the flesh there is a Law against it”
    Yeah, but do you remember how it says “there is no Law against the fruit of the Spirit”? Love is the fulfillment of the Law.

  33. What Bo calls righteousness, is often legalism, a way of violating the law, which is also a form of lawlessness.

  34. Ray,
    Bo wants to live by Scripture so I personally understand that he has the right to ask such questions as he does–even if he transgresses the line of decency when he starts making declarative statements.

  35. Legalism often results in a wild contradiction of living which is contrary to everything in the law that is right and good.

  36. Ray,
    People (pastors and other authority figures included) used to get angry with me when I would ask questions, instead of just help me, so I understand a little bit about where Bo is. I consider it a joy to share anything that will edify others.

  37. The ones who were the most interested in keeping everything of the law were the ones who with the help of the betrayer, went out to arrest Jesus and have him unjustly tried, and put to death on the cross. Inside they were ravenous wolves, and they went right for the Shepherd when their opportunity came.

  38. Bo,
    Because God’s love is in me I love you and I want to see good things for you not bad. I hope for that day when you are (as I see it) submitted to Grace and enjoying God’s salvation.

  39. Bo,
    No, they are egregious and they hurt me when I read them, and they have no place here in the quantity he dishes them out.

  40. If the Pharisees who were about seeking to kill Jesus would have been walking in a manner that would be the establishing of the law, they would not have been seeking to kill Jesus. Rather, they chose to violate it.

    There was one who was about interceding for Christ, and his name was Nicodemus. (see John 7:51)

    But in the following verse we see that they were about respecting persons rather than pleading the cause of the just, and doing judgment and justice as the law taught.

    John 7:52
    They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of
    Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

    So we see that they were about respecting persons, and judging others, Nicodemus in this case, of doing what they themselves were guilty of and not Nicodemus, as they were in their hypocrisy.

  41. Bo,
    It is for the very reason that I know righteousness is REQUIRED for salvation from wrath on sin that I seek to be established in Grace: I know from experience that I have no other hope of averting evil and doing good. When I am abiding in the Good News, I am dead to sin and alive to God and I bear the fruit of the Spirit (against which there is no Law).

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