Dr. Brown dialogues with Tim Hegg on the question of whether God wants both Jewish and Gentile believers to observe the written Torah. The phone lines will be open for discussion and questions! Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
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Well, thanks for bringing that to my attention…now I can stay up all night just so I can be the one to post to that number!!! 🙂
Benjamin, while you did just post a number of good things you are still making some assumptions as well as ignoring some other things.
As far as covenants go you are assuming one replaces another but it’s not true as gal 3? says. We’ve already talked about it, paul mentions a principle and applies it. He doesn’t arbitrarily make that statement he appeals to a commonly understood principal.
Also eph 2.12 says we used to be strangers to the covenants (plural) of the promise (singular). You partake of multiple covenants. Also, you are a partaker of the new covenant because of the abrahamic. Multiple places indicate the enduring nature of the various covenants but you bring either vague passages or passages that at the very least have a viable alternate interpretation that shows the continuity and cooperative nature.
I don’t have much more time but about jer 31 the new covenant-
It may say unlike the prior covenant, but it indicates in the passage whats different. Writing gods torah on their heart. Anything else is assumption.
It says “not like…but this… I will put my torah within. This is what god says is not like the prior one.
What would writing gods torah on ones heart mean to a jew?
more later.
Benjamin and Sheila,
I’m still waiting for your explanation of the what the “law of Christ” is. Since you have not answered, I went looking 🙂
“”The law of Christ” (ὁ νόμος τοῦ Χριστοῦ) is a New Testament phrase of uncertain meaning, found only in the Pauline Epistles at Galatians 6:2[2] and parenthetically (ἔννομος Χριστῷ “being under the law to Christ”) at 1 Corinthians 9:21.”-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Christ
I expect that since the “simplicity that is in Christ” is simple by it’s very nature, that it will not take much explaining. It should be quite straight forward and definitely stated in scripture. I just cannot believe that Wikipedia listed the only two passages that tell us of the “law of Christ’ because there really isn’t much in those two passages as far as definition.
Shalom
I also found this:
“Question: “What is the law of Christ?”
Answer: Galatians 6:2 states, “Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” (emphasis added). What exactly is the law of Christ, and how is it fulfilled by carrying each other’s burdens? While the law of Christ is also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:21, the Bible nowhere specifically defines what precisely is the law of Christ. However, most Bible teachers understand the law of Christ to be what Christ stated were the greatest commandments in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’””-http://www.gotquestions.org/law-of-Christ.html
The best I can tell, it is “of uncertain meaning” and “the Bible nowhere specifically defines what precisely is the law of Christ.”
Shalom
Bo,
I feel certain I can do better than that but it will have to wait until I’ve got the photography tutorials finished. Should be in the next day or so.
Patience, Grasshopper…
🙂
Bo,
Establishing the law by faith, isn’t keeping Sabbath days, eating only certain meats, by law, and doing other things, for those things are works concerning carnal things.
The law of Christ, is the perfect law of liberty, which is all the word of God which applies to those under the grace of God and are not under law. It’s the will of God, which is the will of Christ.
Putting one’s self under the law to keep Sabbath days from sundown to sundown, eating only meats which were acceptable to eat under the law, keeping Jewish holydays as if it is always a requirement of God, these are examples of what is not included in the law of Christ.
Bo,
Don’t you think that if Jesus would have told people to remember that he came to destroy the law and the prophets, that it would have been the wrong thing for him to say, for he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, which he did, all the way through the cross, and when he did, God abolished the law, and all that was written against us, and began something new, a new and better way.
Now that the law is abolished, we still learn from it, find the will of God by it, and are comforted and educated in spiritual matters from it, but we are not under it as being our schoolmaster, for we are not under law, but under grace.
It has been done away, and the new covenant is in effect. It was abolished so the new could take effect. God did this legally, completely fulfilling it by his Son Jesus Christ, the lamb of God.
If an exhaustive concordance causes you to stumble, I suggest you leave it alone, until you learn how to use it properly.
There’s are exhaustive reasons the translators chose the English words they did. They did their translation work with much prayerful thought, discernment, and discipline, and these are the same things you need Bo.
All the reasons why the English translators choose to use the word “abolish” where they did, and also used the word “destroy” as they did, have been given you on this thread, all that you need for now, more than you need to come to repentance.
The two words are not the same. Look them up in a dictionary and see the difference if you like, an English dictionary, something that I strongly suggest for your Bible study.
Then get free of your legalism, and the horrible things you suggest by mishandling the word of God, for you keep weaving the spider’s beam to fill the minds of men with cob webs that they have to continually clear out, and hatch cockatrice eggs, and these things are so unclean, devilish, and blasphemous, that I do not want to deal with them here on a public blog.
Get educated, repent, and get free, in Jesus’ name.
A man that will go his own way contrary to so many chapters, verses, and books of the Bible, because he thinks he has understanding of a few Greek words, and will not listen to those who did the translation into English, flatters himself far too much, and is deserving of many stripes, especially when he goes out to trouble others as a result of his own misconduct.
If we want a good example of how to fulfil the law, we can always look to Jesus, who went about preaching repentance, teaching, and healing.
Did he ever preach on keeping the Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, or to keep track of new moons, or to not eat certain meats, or the importance of setting aside all over activities on all Jewish holydays? No. It’s simply something he didn’t do.
But look what happens on this thread.
So why didn’t he speak against people doing all those things by law, or as a requirement of obedience to God?
I suppose because they were under the law.
But what should we think he might do today if some people are zealous for the law and law keeping when we are not under law but under grace?
What sort of work might he be about?
If a man loves Christ, I think he will honor the work he is about, if he does indeed know Christ.
When Jesus ministered in the days of his flesh, people were under the law as their schoolmaster, even as a greater master arrived to teach them.
Bo,
Do you believe people should go back under law instead of living under the grace of Christ, and if so, why?
Should a man want to live under the law, or in the kingdom of heaven? He can not do both.
Ray wrote:
“The law of Christ, is the perfect law of liberty, which is all the word of God which applies to those under the grace of God and are not under law. It’s the will of God, which is the will of Christ.”
The above is an assertion without proof. Nowhere in the Bible is the perfect law or law of liberty or perfect law of liberty equated with “the law of Christ” if “the law of Christ” is something different than His Father’s law. Grace does not allow us to sin. Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s law.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Ps 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
The perfect law of liberty is what was written from the time of Timothy’s youth. It makes us wise to salvation and is where we are supposed to get our doctrine, instruction in righteousness, and be throughly furnished unto ALL good works.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Those that will not meekly accept YHWH’s law into their hearts, are not doing what James said to do. YHWH’s law and prophets make us wise unto salvation and by receiving YHWH’s words into our hearts, our souls are saved. The new covenant is supposed to write YHHW’s law upon our hearts.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The perfect law of liberty that James speaks of is the same one that David spoke of. Where do we suspect that he got the terminology? James explains himself further:
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James quotes from YHWH’s law and tells us not to break it. He calls it the law of liberty. John also tells us that to transgress YHWH’s law is sin. If the the law of liberty is “the law of Christ,” then the “law of Christ” is YHWH’s law. How could it be different since the Father and the Son are one?
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
We are to be made holy by subjecting ourselves to the Truth. YHWH’s law is truth. The carnal mind will not be subject to YHWH’s law.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
(YHWH’s law is part of His word and it is truth. We are to be sanctified/made holy/be set apart by keeping YHHW’s law.)
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
(Messiah kept all of YHWH’s law. He sanctified Himself this way so that we would also be sanctified by the YHWH’s law.)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
(He wants this for all of his disciples, not just the original Jewish ones.)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(We will never be one with the Father and the Son or each other until we agree to live by the truth. YHWH’s law is truth. Both the Father and the Son agree on this.)
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(The world does not see “Christians” being one either with each other or with the Father. They see them breaking YHWH’s law. Because of “Christian” false doctrine that teaches that Messiah voided YHWH’s law, they will never be one in the truth.)
Those that have read or heard YHWH’s law and do not put it into practice are deceiving themselves…according to James.
Ray wrote:
“Should a man want to live under the law, or in the kingdom of heaven? He can not do both.”
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Messiah disagrees with Ray’s false dichotomy. Ray thinks that those that obey YHWH’s law are “under the law.” Ray cannot be subject to YHWH’s law because his thinking is carnal.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It is obvious from the above statements by Messiah that the only way we will be great in the kingdom of heaven is to keep and teach others to keep all of YHWH’s law. If disobey the least of the commandments and teach men so, we will be least in the kingdom of heaven. But if we refuse to keep YHWH’s law, we will not enter the kingdom of heaven, even though we think that “Jesus” is our lord.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Ray wrote:
“Establishing the law by faith, isn’t keeping Sabbath days, eating only certain meats, by law, and doing other things, for those things are works concerning carnal things.”
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ray just cannot be subject to YHWH’s law. He rebels against it. Carnal things matter. Works matter. It holiness in spirit and in the flesh that matter…if we want to have perfect hearts before YHWH.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
It is our job to subject ourselves to YHWH’s rulings on holiness and being clean. The carnal minded man will never be able to agree to such. Those that have the hope of seem Messiah as He is purify themselves as He is pure and stop transgressing YHWH’s law.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
If we continue transgressing YHWH’s law, we not righteous and we are of the devil. Messiah shed His blood to take away our sins. We do despite to the Spirit of grace when we continue to sin willfully after we know what YHWH’s law says.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Ray wrote:
“God abolished the law, and all that was written against us, and began something new, a new and better way…
It has been done away, and the new covenant is in effect. It was abolished so the new could take effect…
There’s are exhaustive reasons the translators chose the English words they did. They did their translation work with much prayerful thought, discernment, and discipline, and these are the same things you need Bo.”
Ray could not be more wrong. The new covenant writes YHWH’s law upon our hearts. It does not abolish YHWH’s law. If it is on our hearts, it is established instead of abolished.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. KJV
Ro 3:31 Do we then destroy the law throwe faith? God forbid. We rather maintain the law. Tyndale
Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth
Ro 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law. ERV
Ro 3:31 Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law. HCSB
It is pretty obvious that the law is not abolished, made void, canceled, or cancelled. Messiah did not come to do such a thing.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil. Darby
Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ESV
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to undo the law or the prophets; I am not come to undo, but to fulfil. JB2000
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to subvert the law or the prophets. I am come not to subvert, but to ratify. LO
Mt 5:17 Do not think, that I came to pull down the law, or the prophets,–I came not to pull down, but to fulfill. Rotherham
Mt 5:17 “do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the law or the prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion. Weymouth
Mt 5:17 Ye shall not think, that I am come to disannul the law, other the prophets: no I am not come to disannul them, but to fulfil them. Tyndale
YHWH’s law was not written against us.
De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Ray wrote:
“A man that will go his own way contrary to so many chapters, verses, and books of the Bible, because he thinks he has understanding of a few Greek words, and will not listen to those who did the translation into English, flatters himself far too much, and is deserving of many stripes, especially when he goes out to trouble others as a result of his own misconduct.”
Me thinks that Ray accuses himself. Who is it that ignores the scriptures that are quoted here and will not answer direct questions about them?
Sheila,
Only 7 more 🙂
Thanks Dennis,
“As far as covenants go you are assuming one replaces another but it’s not true” –No I do not assume this at all. But when Scripture tells us that one particular covenant has been replaced then I have scriptural grounds for believing that.
“Also eph 2.12 says we used to be strangers to the covenants (plural) of the promise (singular). You partake of multiple covenants. Also, you are a partaker of the new covenant because of the abrahamic.” – Yes, Amen, the Abrahamic, but what about the Mosaic? Where does it fit in? We can dig into Ephesians 2:12 then.
Ephesians 2:11-16:
Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
A second passages is Ephesians 3:5 6:
which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it has now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
In regard to Gentiles this could be called the “partaker view.” The point of these passages is that God made four unconditional covenants with Israel: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. All of God’s blessings, both physical and spiritual, are mediated by means of these four covenants. However, there is also a fifth covenant, the conditional Mosaic Covenant. This was the middle wall of partition. Essentially, it kept the Gentiles from enjoying the spiritual blessings of the four unconditional covenants. For a Gentile to begin receiving the blessings of the unconditional covenants, he had to totally submit to the Mosaic Law, undergo circumcision, take upon himself the obligations of the Law, and, for all practical purposes, live as a son of Abraham. Gentiles, as Gentiles, were not able to enjoy the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants; hence, they were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel. They did not receive any of the spiritual benefits contained in the covenants. However, when the Messiah died, the Mosaic Law, the middle wall of partition, was broken down. Now by faith Gentiles, as Gentiles, can enjoy the spiritual blessings of the four unconditional covenants. That is why Gentiles today are partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings, not “takers over.”
The concept of partaking is also found in Romans 11:17:
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and did become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;
The Olive Tree represents the place of spiritual blessings of the Jewish Covenants. The types of branches partaking of the blessings: natural branches, which are the Jewish believers; wild olive branches, which are the Gentile believers.
However, the Olive Tree itself still belongs to Israel according to verse 24: For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
The relationship of the Church to the New Covenant is the same as the Church’s relationship to the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant. The physical promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, as amplified by the Land and Davidic Covenants, were promised exclusively to Israel. However, the Blessing aspect, as amplified by the New Covenant, was to include the Gentiles. The Church is enjoying the spiritual blessings of these covenants, not the material and physical benefits. The physical promises still belong to Israel and will be fulfilled exclusively with Israel, especially those involving the Land. However, all spiritual benefits are now being shared by the Church. This is the Church’s relationship to these four unconditional covenants between God and Israel.
Grace and peace,
Benjamin,
Did you have a chance to finish your commentary on John 6? I’ve completed an exhaustive exegesis on 6:44 and would be glad to share it with you. Send me a note with your e-mail address, and I’d be happy to send it to you.
Shalom
briandr22@hotmail.com
The apostle Paul uses the word circumcision to describe much more than just physical circumcision which was a part of the law. He uses it in Galatians as a way of referring to requirements of the law that involved carnal things, and by that I mean things that pertain to this world, such as things that can be tasted or touched, and a few other things as well.
Here’s what Paul said about righteousness:
“…if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (see Gal 2:21)
Can the law give life? Here’s Paul’s answer to that question: “…if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (see Gal 3:21)
I believe Paul refers to the “weak and beggarly elements of the law”, as circumcision. This can be determined by the context of Galatians as well as by spiritual discernment, for when he speaks of circumcision in Galatians, it is certainly more than just an act of circumcision of the flesh which was a part of the law. (see Gal 4:9)
Certainly, loving our neighbor as ourselves would not well qualify as a “weak and beggarly element of the law”, but many other things do qualify as that, simply by their nature.
Certainly Paul was not about “keeping every jot and tittle of the law” as we can see here. He was about the gospel of Christ, as the Lord revealed it to him, doing the work God called him to do by Jesus Christ.
Gal 5:10
I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
There is coming a time when legalists will either have to fish or cut bait, and if neither, then they will have to leave the ship.
Gal 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
The freewoman is the city of the Spirit which is from above, the new Jerusalem, the city reserved in heaven for the faithful, and those that are true.
So who is the bondwoman? Not only did scripture say to cast out the son of the bondwoman, it also said to cast her out as well.
Ray,
The only persecution that has been coming to anyone on this website comes from you. Your insults and judgmentalism is over the top. Can you answer questions that are asked of you, or are you scared to show that you have no answers? Here is your 10th chance to show your cards.
Ray wrote:
“Legalists always seem to be destitute of that which is agreeable to good Christians.”
People that always are calling other people names and insulting them are probably not the Biblical scholars or spiritual giants that they think they are.
How about trying to answer some simple questions instead of just trash talking?
Ray wrote:
“I believe the law was abolished as the scripture says, but that it’s not been destroyed in the sense that we may still read it and learn from it, something God preserved for us by his love and grace to us in Christ Jesus.”
You are playing semantic games. It is ludicrous to say it not being destroyed means that is is physically still here or that it exists for us to look at or that we can learn from it though it is abolished. Messiah and Paul both say that it is not abolished.
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. RSV
Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth
You still refuse to answer some very simple points. Why is that? What are you hiding? Why do you have not direct answer? Here is your chance to disprove me.
Ray wrote:
“No one can understand you. What you offer here is indigestible.”
You’re the only one that has said that Ray. Is it that no one can understand me, or is it that you refuse to try to understand the passages of scripture I quote? Is it because you only glance at my posts, instead of actually reading them? Shall we try one concept at a time? Ray see if you can understand this:
Point #1
In English, “abolish” and “destroy” and “make void” are basically synonyms as proven by these three translations of the very same Greek word.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish (Strong’s #2647) the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish (Strong’s #2647) them but to fulfil them. RSV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void (Strong’s #2647) the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. Darby
Point #2
Messiah did not come to destroy/abolish/make void the law. Paul destroyed something. Whatever Paul destroyed/abolished/maid void, it was not the law, because if Messiah didn’t destroy it, Paul would not and could not either.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Strong’s #2647), I make myself a transgressor.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil.
Point #3
Paul stopped keeping the traditions of Judiasm, He did not stop keeping YHWH’s law. Paul destroyed the religion of manmade commandments and salvation by works. He did not destroy or stop keeping YHWH’s law…he proved that he did not.
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Point #4
The law is not made void/abolished/destroyed/done away with by our faith. Paul says this very emphatically. Whatever has been done away with/made void/abolished/destroyed in Messiah, it is not YHWH’s law. The vail of manmade traditions and ordinances is what is done away with. These ordinances of man have blinded the Jews to Messiah. They keep them from doing YHWH’s commandments.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away (Strong’s #2673) in Christ.
Point #5
The law is established by our faith. “Established” is the same word as “continued” as is proven by the two passages below that use the same Greek word. Our faith does not destroy/make void/destroy the law…it causes YHWH’s law to continue.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Strong’s #2476) the law.
Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue (Strong’s #2476) unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Ray, these are 5 easy things for you to answer directly. Take them one at a time and label them and try to show my error from the scripture. If you cannot do this, your stance is false. If you will not do this, you are refuted.
Have you ever heard of a Strong’s Concordance? Do you know how to look up words that are the same in Greek? Do you understand that my above posts show that according to the Greek you are making ridiculous statements?
The commandments contained in ordinances are manmade ordinances. That is what the word dogma “ordinances” means.
Destroying the law is the same as abolishing it or making it void.
Just take the points 1 through 5 and address each in logical and scriptural manner so that we can all see if you are correct. If you won’t, you have conceded the debate.
How long will you shirk?
You still have only shirked.
Only shirked…
Sheila,
You are going to miss it 🙂
I got it again!
Here’s something Paul talked about concerning something he would not come under the power of:
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats:
What do you suppose he was talking about?
(see I Cor 6:12,13)
Here again in Romans 7, Paul shows the analogy of a woman being bound under law by the law until the death of her husband, but once her husband is dead, she becomes free from “the law of her husband”.
So who died, to make men free? Jesus.
Who is the “husband” Paul is talking about? Jesus.
(see Romans 7:2)
In similar manner, as with a woman who is bound by law to her husband, and is under his authority, men were bound by the law, but when Christ died, they became free from that law, that they might be married to the risen Saviour, and be under a new and better way than the law they previously were under and had them bound to.
We became dead to the law by the body of Christ.
Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
I take it that God has no interest in people that would present their works of the law unto him, don’t you? We become dead to the works of the law, and alive unto God by the gospel of Christ.
So what about those who insist that they (and others also) must keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, eat only meats the law said was lawful to eat, and set aside all other activities for every Jewish holyday?
They should have died with Christ at the cross.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Living by the oldness of the letter of the law instead of by the newness of life in Christ is sin to him who has heard the good news of their salvation in Christ.
God expects from us the fruit of the gospel, not some old things of the letter of the law that we are to be dead to.
Yet, what are some men offering people all the time, as if they see that as their “work” for God?
Ray,
You wrote:
“So what about those who insist that they (and others also) must keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, eat only meats the law said was lawful to eat, and set aside all other activities for every Jewish holyday?”
What about those? The apostles were some of those that continued in all of these things. And they are not “Jewish” holy days. They are YHWH’s Sabbaths and appointed times. The Jews do have feasts, and about one third of the time they happen to fall on YHWH’s appointed times.
Le 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Le 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
All the apostles continued to keep YHWH’s law after the resurrection of Messiah. Did they do it to obtain righteousness? NO! The did it because righteous people do what they know is right to do. And they were not about to turn to the Roman Idolatrous calendar that reverenced every false god imaginable. They and the other early believers used YHWH’s holy calendar instead…because they took it seriously to be holy as YHWH is holy.
Paul continued to keep the law and proved this to thousands of believers in Messiah that were zealous for the law. It is never even hinted at that these that were zealous for the law were doing anything wrong. Paul would not have proved that he kept the law to these if he didn’t continue to keep the law. He would have never done it if it was wrong for them to be zealous for the law.
All the references in the “New Testament” to time are to YHWH’s calendar and not the Roman calendar. In order to know what day the “New Testament” writers were speaking of, the original readers would have had to know how to start their months according to the new moon as scripture states. If the Gentile believers were not keeping YHWH’s calendar they would not understand what was being written to them. It would have no certain meaning to them. If it didn’t matter which calendar they were keeping, why isn’t there one reference to the Roman empires way of keeping time? Surely the Gentiles would be more accustomed to the Roman calendar than the Biblical one if they were not keeping the Biblical one.
Surely Paul and Luke would have written things like, “in the month dedicated to Mars, when the sun is in Aries, on the first Sunday after the full moon, be sure to celebrate Ishtar’s day.” if the early gentile churches were anything like the gentile churches of today. But Paul and Luke did not write this way to gentiles, because the gentiles had learned form scripture how to keep Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. So Paul and Luke, to the gentiles, write this:
Ac 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Ac 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
1Co 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.
Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
If Sabbath did not matter to the early believers, why did Paul not just have a meeting on the next day for the Gentiles…on Sunday the supposed “Lord’s day”? Why wait a week and have the next meeting for the gentiles on Sabbath? If Paul was going to wait a week, why not make it 8 days and have the gentiles come on the supposed day that Messiah rose from the dead? The gentiles knew which day Paul and the believers kept as holy to YHWH…and it was not Sunday.
Bo,
So I did! Well, drats. Guess I’ll just wait until the next 666 comes around then. 🙂
Those who insist on everyone keeping Sabbath days, from sundown to sundown, and eating only meats that were considered clean under the law, and circumcision, are living contrary to the gospel and need deliverance out of their religious sins.
Those who say that the apostle Paul keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, and made sure that he stayed away from certain meats because he believed them to be unclean, as the law also says, is a liar, for Paul warned the church time and again not to become entangled with such things from the law which God abolished.
Ray wrote:
“Those who say that the apostle Paul keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, and made sure that he stayed away from certain meats because he believed them to be unclean, as the law also says, is a liar, for Paul warned the church time and again not to become entangled with such things from the law which God abolished.”
I guess you are calling Paul and Luke liars.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Paul warned against trusting works for salvation. He did not ever say that the law was an entanglement. He said that those that speak as you do are carnal minded.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Sheila,
You can try for 999 which is 666 upside down. I do not know if that is good or bad. If I get it, it is good. If you get it… 🙂
I am waiting one what the Bible says about the “Law of Christ.”
Shalom
Ray wrote:
“Those who say that the apostle Paul…made sure that he stayed away from certain meats because he believed them to be unclean, as the law also says…is a liar”
Who is the liar?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
You refuse to keep YHWH’s commandments. You are in danger of not getting to eat from the tree of life. You are in danger of not getting to enter the holy city. Only those that keep YHWH’s commandments get to do these things. Liars do not get in. Whoever says that he knows YHWH but does not keep His commandments is a liar.
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
At some point all those that refuse to walk in YHWH’s clean laws will remain in their filthiness and there uncleanness. These be judged according to their works.
Yeah right like Paul was always zealous about the law while rebuking the church for getting that way, or Peter also. See Galatians.
I guess some people want to come on this thread to make a laughingstock of themselves.
Amazing how some who seem to have a ministry of hypocritism can try to make a hypocrite out of anybody.
Notice how Ray resorts to insults and tries to distract from the scripture that was quoted that he just will not believe are true. These passages prove my point and make you look foolish.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Paul did not offend against the law. He proved that he continued to keep the law. The “est” ending on walk and keep means that it is continuous action. Ray just cannot believe the scripture and makes Paul and Luke to be liars.
Ray,
It is time for you concede or start showing how the scripture I quote does not mean what it says. If you could answer questions instead of just being insulting, you might be taken seriously. But I am guessing that it will never happen.
Shabbat Shalom everyone.
Bo,
Acts 21:24 is so simple to understand. It’s something Paul took the liberty to do as an opportunity to witness to religious Jews who were zealous of the law, many of whom were slandering him and his manner of life. Paul being a Jew long before his calling of the Lord to preach the gospel and it’s liberty to the Gentiles and Jews, knew of the manners, customs, and how people lived unto God.
Though he had no confidence in some of these things, he had the liberty to participate in these things in order that there might be an opportunity to win some to the gospel, which is why he said that “to the Jew he became a Jew that he might gain the Jew.”
Paul never said that to the Christian, he became a Christian in order that he might gain a Christian, which is what some legalistic hypocrites might be doing today.
I believe some would like to submit for our examination, that if a man did not have bacon on his breakfast plate and was seen not eating bacon when at breakfast among Jews, that it is proof that he never eats bacon, and also lives that way every day, as a religious rule.
Such would make lousy lawyers. They know how to lie more than most, as they have practiced it a long time.
I Cor 9:20
And unto the Jews, I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, that I might gain them that are under the
law;..
So was Paul’s ministry to rob the Lord Jesus of his flock, or to bring others into the fold?
To bring them into the fold no doubt.
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy…
Bo, Why do you prefer to destroy, kill, or steal, rather than win the lost to the gospel?
Isn’t stealing contrary to the law you seem to try so hard to establish? And shouldn’t you teach yourself before you try to teach others?
It seem you like to come on this tread to show us your ignorance, sin, deceit, and corruption, as well as your counter missionary work.
Ray says:
“Those who say that the apostle Paul keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, and made sure that he stayed away from certain meats because he believed them to be unclean, as the law also says, is a liar…”
The Bible says:
“Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.”
Who will you believe?
I say:
“Paul did not offend against the law. He proved that he continued to keep the law. The “est” ending on walk and keep means that it is continuous action. Ray just cannot believe the scripture and makes Paul and Luke to be liars.”
Ray wrote:
“It seem you like to come on this tread to show us your ignorance, sin, deceit, and corruption, as well as your counter missionary work.”
If Ray would actually read what I write, he would not seek to accuse and insult me. But he doesn’t read what I write and thus continues to insult and accuse. I as about as far away from a counter missionary as they come. I have been the one that exhorts, rebukes and proves false every counter missionary that comes across my path.
Counter missionaries teach that Y’shua is not Messiah, that He is not Elohim, and that His death was only for Himself and not for us. I absolutely am against counter missionaries.
Ray just seeks to accuse me falsely because he cannot answer the scriptures that I bring up.
Ray quoted:
“I Cor 9:20
And unto the Jews, I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, that I might gain them that are under the
law;..”
Context is crucial to understanding any passage of scripture. The most used word in 1 Corinthians chapter 9 is…”preach(ed).” He is explaining what he does to get the gospel message across to varied audiences. He didn’t get drunk with the drunkards or bow before idols with the idol worshipers. He didn’t eat clam chowder with the Bostonians or calamari with the Italians. He didn’t pretend to be weak with the weak.
Paul is speaking about how he preaches in order to communicate to the different categories that He mentions.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
He says emphatically that he had not offended the law. He proved that he continued to keep the law. He was not a fence riding, middle of the road, chameleon that changed his lifestyle to please whoever he was with.
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
In this very chapter, Paul appeals to the law for the veracity of his teaching, so he surely does not believe that it is obsolete.
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
Paul is not making things up or teaching his own ideas. He points out that the law of YHWH backs him up.
So how did Paul preach? He disputed in the synagogues with the Jews and devout and in the market with others. He appealed to the philosophers from their own writings and by logic.
Acts 17
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection…
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you…
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
There are many other instances where we can see Paul adjusting his message to the audience…but he proved beyond doubt that he continued to keep the law.
Paul preached that in Christ being a Jew or a Gentile was of little significance. He himself who was raised a Jew and learned the Jewish ways, being a Pharisee himself of one of the highest orders, counted all that as nothing of value that he might gain Christ, actually comparing all that to dung.
He wasn’t one who put himself under the law to keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, eat only meats specified by the law as clean to be eaten, set aside all other activities for every Jewish holyday, or keep track of new moons, for these things he made mention of in his letter to the church in Colosse, (Col 2:16) and warned the church in Galatia of the same. (see Gal 4:9,10) and told them to be as he was. (Gal 4:12)
So the religious hypocrite of today will do their work (as long as it’s not a Sabbath apparently) of misrepresenting the apostle Paul, trying to make him appear as being a hypocrite, (in withstanding Peter to his face) as they suggest that Paul himself still had confidence in the law, (in order to make the gospel of no effect) and yet would not allow the same in others, even as they represent him as not wanting others to have confidence in the law (as the hypocrite would want us to think that he had) while it was OK for him to have the same. (as the hypocrite represents him)
So the religious hypocrite of today will work 6 days a week to spread their leaven in the church and trouble it, as it happened in the days of Paul.
They who do that will bear their judgment.
They could avoid all that if they would only come to repentance through the knowledge of God.
Religious hypocrites are confused, and sow confusion, being the servants of corruption.
They will bear their judgment.
They seem to want people to become free talking of liberty, but they themselves are a prisoner of sin.
Ray wrote:
“They could avoid all that if they would only come to repentance through the knowledge of God.
Religious hypocrites are confused, and sow confusion, being the servants of corruption.
They will bear their judgment.
They seem to want people to become free talking of liberty, but they themselves are a prisoner of sin.”
Sin is the transgression of the law. Ray refuses to keep YHWH’s law. He does not accept YHWH’s holiness commandments. He really just accuses himself.
2 Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
See, a false teacher of the gospel might portray Paul the apostle as a devout letter of the law keeping Jew who always would be concerned about himself keeping every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, be certain that he never ate certain meats because of what the law said about them, keep track of new moons and especially every Jewish holyday, in order to abstain religiously from any other activity, and perhaps other such things, like circumcision which was a part of the law, as this being what the true gospel is about, but then preach to the Gentiles something quite the contrary, about the law being all done with and over for them, and that they shouldn’t be concerned with what meats to eat, Jewish holydays, Sabbaths, circumcision, and perhaps some other things, and by telling this to the Gentiles, not only would he be a hypocrite, living one way himself, but then another way, being as the Gentiles when among the Gentiles, even so much in hypocrisy, that he would rebuke Peter to his face, while Paul’s manner of life was exactly the same, and all the while preaching a false gospel to the Gentiles….or some crazy kind of stuff like this….and it’s because hypocrites are nuts…just plain nuts!
The just need to repent of whatever sins or practicing of error they can see in their own life, and get free in the name of Jesus Christ, receive the remission of their sins and walk in newness of life, free from their previous hypocrisy, and help others who are caught up in legalism as they had once been, and show them the light and how to get free as they did.
Then the whole church would be better off.
Ray wrote:
“Paul…wasn’t one who put himself under the law to keep every Sabbath day from sundown to sundown, eat only meats specified by the law as clean to be eaten, set aside all other activities for every Jewish holyday, or keep track of new moons, for these things he made mention of in his letter to the church in Colosse, (Col 2:16) and warned the church in Galatia of the same. (see Gal 4:9,10) and told them to be as he was. (Gal 4:12)”
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
What you say of Paul, Paul refutes. He testified in court that He did not break the law. He proved to thousands that he “walkest orderly and keepest the law.” “Walkest” and “keepest” have continuous action endings. I know it is hard for you to accept that Paul was not what you want him to be, but the truth is the truth.
Concerning Galatians 4:12…
Ga 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all…
(As has been proved, Paul continued to keep the law. He had stopped keeping the manmade traditions of Judaism. He wrote earlier in Galatians, “And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”-Ga 1:14
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
(The truth is that it is good to be zealous for the law, but not for the traditions of Judaism. Paul proved to the thousands that were zealous for the law that he also continued to keep the law. If it was a bad thing, Paul would not have proved himself to be a law keeper.)
Ray has become my enemy, and Paul’s, because I tell him the truth. About all he can do is insult and accuse. Ray also referenced Galatians 4:9-10. Let’s look at what is said in context.
Ga 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
(So the Galatians were formerly idolaters. They served false deities.)
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(What were they returning to? It could not have been to the Biblical holy days, for they were not invented by man nor were they worship to false deities. What are weak and beggarly elements, then? Paul wrote, “Beware lest any one make a prey of you through an empty and deceitful philosophy, -according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.”-Col 2:8 The traditions of men are the elements that Paul speaks of. The elements of Messiah are His Father’s law. Paul wrote, “For, when, by this time, you ought to be teachers, you have need of some one to teach you again the first elements of the oracles of God; and have become such as need milk, rather than solid food.”-Heb 5:12 The “oracles of God” is the scripture that existed in Paul’s day…the Law and the Prophets. Paul thought that those that did not know these elements was a baby instead of mature.)
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(Paul continued to keep the law and we know that he only used YHWH’s feasts as time references. How can he tell the Corinthians to keep the feast of Unleavened Bread and tell them that he would remain in Ephesus until Pentecost, after he told the Galatians that they should not mess with days, months, times, and years? Paul is either telling the Galatians to not go back to practicing their old calendar of paganism with it’s references to false deities or to not go by the commandments of men concerning YHWH’s feast days, or both, because Paul himself still kept YHWH feast days and told the Galatians to be as he is. He rejected the commandments of men that he learned in Judaism, but he still kept the law which tells us when and how to keep YHWH’s holy days.)
So Ray, once again, does not believe what is written. He referenced one more passage of scripture. Let’s see the context:
Co 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(The “principalities” and “powers” here are the Jewish religious leaders. The Greek words are used of synagogue leaders. Messiah showed openly, during His earthly ministry, that their commandments of men had made their worship vain. He said, “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”-Mr 7:7-9)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(The ones that were trying to bring the Colossians into subjection to their teachings was the Jewish religious leaders. Verse 16 says “therefore.” In other words, “because” Messiah had shown the Jewish religious leaders to be teaching commandments of men instead of YHWH’s commandments, we should not let them tell us how to eat and drink out of specially washed cups and with their version of ritual hand washing. We should not let them tell us that we have to incorporated their other manmade traditions concerning YHWH’s Sabbath and holy days. We should not use their corrupt calendar that is not scriptural. Why? Because if we obey men instead of YHWH concerning His appointed times, we are not showing the true representation of Messiah’s redemptive work and we have forsaken Messiah for other masters, namely the rabbis.)
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
(The word “angels” above can be translated messengers or ministers. When we obey Judaism, instead of YHWH’s Torah, our worship is actually of those that teach these commandments of men. They do not accept Messiah. They are not allowed to be our judges.)
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(The ordinances that we are not to keep is the ones that man invents. The commandments and doctrines of men are the rudiments/elements of the world. YHWH’s commandments are not worldly beggerly elements. They are higher thoughts and ways than ours. We outsmart ourselves when we think that we can disregard YHWH’s commandments.)
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Ray thinks that he is smart to disregard YHWH’s law, but he is really just obeying the fleshly elements of the world in keeping the pagan calendar and refusing YHWH’s calendar. His mind will not accept YHWH’s law.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Ray wrote:
“See, a false teacher of the gospel might portray Paul the apostle as a devout…law keep[er]…but then preach to the Gentiles something quite the contrary, about the law being all done with and over for them, and that they shouldn’t be concerned with what meats to eat, Jewish holydays, Sabbaths, circumcision, and perhaps some other things, and by telling this to the Gentiles, not only would he be a hypocrite, living one way himself, but then another way…”
Ray just will not accept that Paul testified and proved that he continued to keep the law. Paul did not tell the gentiles that they were exempt form YHWH’s law. Ray has it exactly backwards about who is the false teacher.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Ray wrote:
“…it’s because hypocrites are nuts…just plain nuts!”
Ray, when you realize that your are only accusing yourself because you will not accept what the scripture says.
This topic again.
To ask the whole Christian world to not light a fire on Shabat will be tough. Like fire on a stove.
or to ask them to never drive on Shabat. or never turn off the lights on shabat.
it would be interesting to see Christians living like this but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
Sripture is used as ammunition in both sides of the debate.
What if it is true that Christians need to live like Jews, then the New Testament was misleading in its silence towards these things, such as fire on Shabbat and inconsistent with the rabbis perspective as well.
It would be interesting though, churches would need to be walking distance from the homes. It could be offensive slightly to the Jewish community since Jews are supposed to be separate from the rest of humaniBty not the same.