Dr. Brown dialogues with Tim Hegg on the question of whether God wants both Jewish and Gentile believers to observe the written Torah. The phone lines will be open for discussion and questions! Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
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I just want to clarify something:
Post 543: “but there were just as many Jews in Europe prior to 1948”
I meant, prior to the founding of Israel in a general sense. I am in no way discounting the fact that 6 million Jews were exterminated before 1945.
Legalists always seem to be destitute of that which is agreeable to good Christians.
Ray wrote:
“Legalists always seem to be destitute of that which is agreeable to good Christians.”
People that always are calling other people names and insulting them are probably not the Biblical scholars or spiritual giants that they think they are.
How about trying to answer some simple questions instead of just trash talking?
Ray wrote:
“I believe the law was abolished as the scripture says, but that it’s not been destroyed in the sense that we may still read it and learn from it, something God preserved for us by his love and grace to us in Christ Jesus.”
You are playing semantic games. It is ludicrous to say it not being destroyed means that is is physically still here or that it exists for us to look at or that we can learn from it though it is abolished. Messiah and Paul both say that it is not abolished.
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. RSV
Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth
You still refuse to answer some very simple points. Why is that? What are you hiding? Why do you have not direct answer? Here is your chance to disprove me.
Ray wrote:
“No one can understand you. What you offer here is indigestible.”
You’re the only one that has said that Ray. Is it that no one can understand me, or is it that you refuse to try to understand the passages of scripture I quote? Is it because you only glance at my posts, instead of actually reading them? Shall we try one concept at a time? Ray see if you can understand this:
Point #1
In English, “abolish” and “destroy” and “make void” are basically synonyms as proven by these three translations of the very same Greek word.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish (Strong’s #2647) the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish (Strong’s #2647) them but to fulfil them. RSV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void (Strong’s #2647) the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. Darby
Point #2
Messiah did not come to destroy/abolish/make void the law. Paul destroyed something. Whatever Paul destroyed/abolished/maid void, it was not the law, because if Messiah didn’t destroy it, Paul would not and could not either.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Strong’s #2647), I make myself a transgressor.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil.
Point #3
Paul stopped keeping the traditions of Judiasm, He did not stop keeping YHWH’s law. Paul destroyed the religion of manmade commandments and salvation by works. He did not destroy or stop keeping YHWH’s law…he proved that he did not.
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Point #4
The law is not made void/abolished/destroyed/done away with by our faith. Paul says this very emphatically. Whatever has been done away with/made void/abolished/destroyed in Messiah, it is not YHWH’s law. The vail of manmade traditions and ordinances is what is done away with. These ordinances of man have blinded the Jews to Messiah. They keep them from doing YHWH’s commandments.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away (Strong’s #2673) in Christ.
Point #5
The law is established by our faith. “Established” is the same word as “continued” as is proven by the two passages below that use the same Greek word. Our faith does not destroy/make void/destroy the law…it causes YHWH’s law to continue.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Strong’s #2476) the law.
Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue (Strong’s #2476) unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Ray, these are 5 easy things for you to answer directly. Take them one at a time and label them and try to show my error from the scripture. If you cannot do this, your stance is false. If you will not do this, you are refuted.
Have you ever heard of a Strong’s Concordance? Do you know how to look up words that are the same in Greek? Do you understand that my above posts show that according to the Greek you are making ridiculous statements?
The commandments contained in ordinances are manmade ordinances. That is what the word dogma “ordinances” means.
Destroying the law is the same as abolishing it or making it void.
Just take the points 1 through 5 and address each in logical and scriptural manner so that we can all see if you are correct. If you won’t, you have conceded the debate.
How long will you shirk?
You still have only shirked.
Sheila, Ben and Ray,
Bo has the general meaning correct and the ESV brings out the meaning well:
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Greek Katargeo(overthrow) has a general meaning of “to render inoperative”. Other terms used is “to invalidate”,”nullify” or “put an end to”.
Greek histemi(uphold) has a general meaning of “to make to stand”. Other terms used “to set in place””establish””maintain”.
Just like the ESV says the Law is not overthrown or rendered inoperative by faith but faith upholds the Law. It causes the Law to stand or be maintained.
The scriptures even make this plain:
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
and
Matt 5.17-19 which Bo quotes all the time.
Bo and myself are reading the text straight forwardly. You guys are letting your theology determine the meaning here.
We can see the meaning by taking “overthrow” and “uphold”. Paul is setting these in contrast to one another. The various meanings of “to render inoperative”(make void, abolish,) is contrasting the other word. “Fulfill”(and thus abolish or do away) is not the contrast of this. Fulfill in the sense of “upholding” or “maintaining” the Law is the sense here.
You must let the text speak on it’s own. You cannot bring other verses that contradict the normal or plain meaning of the text itself. It’s bad Bible study and committing eisogesis(reading into) of the text and not “exegesis”(drawing from)of the text.
The meanings of the two words I’ve given is not “Strongs concordance” meanings. It’s fine if you have nothing else but Strong’s is the most basic of Bible study tools.
A few works I’ve consulted and used:
-Louw Nida Greek English Lexicon based on Semantic Domains
-Liddel Scott’s Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon
-Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
-Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
The top three are Greek dictionaries that are used in Seminaries and Vines is a step up from the Strong’s in the areas Vine’s addresses. I highly recommend it for the layman.
Why do I say this? I say this to show that I’m not just making something up nor am I using some weird book or teacher but I’m using standard CHRISTIAN works.(Liddel Scott might not be, but the book is a respected Secular Greek Lexicon.)
You guys can disagree but you cannot say that we have no warrant at all in how we are reading this verse based on the text itself. If you let the text speak for itself, it supports our overall view of the Law.
I’ll probably throw “another 2 cents” into the Eph 2.15 debate but the gist of it will have to be another time.
Needless to say Sheila, Bo is at worst, not reading into the passage anymore than you are, but the difference is, at least he is bringing textual support to his conclusions.
Sheila said:
…for the believer—-it’s all torn down. We are not living under the first covenant which was inaugurated with the nation of Israel when they came out of Egypt—even the ten commandments….yes, even those. Call me crazy but it’s the only thing that makes absolute and complete sense in light of the teaching of the New Testament.”
Is the ten commandments torn down and does it make to most sense to you in light of NT teaching? Let’s let Paul speak on this:
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
How the heck does your view “make the most sense” in light of this verse? Paul four chapters later refers to one the 10 commandments as the authority for him saying that children should obey their parents in the Lord. Paul, within Ephesians, contradicts what “makes the most sense” to you and whats “torn down…even the 10 commandments”.
You’ve read your own view into the passage but it’s shown to be in error by this one verse.
At the very least, as is demonstrated by this passage alone, some of the Law still remains and has not been “torn down” if the meaning is anything like you propose.
That’s all I can say for now. I will have to elaborate further another time.
Bo doesn’t get it at all.
Establishing the law by faith, doesn’t mean the Church is required to keep Sabbath days, keep track of new moons, eat only certain meats according to the law, keep Jewish holydays, and there are other things, I’m sure that could be added to that.
We simply are not under law.
The law has been done away with, though we may still read it and learn from it.
correction: should read “there are other things that could be added to that.”
All this about not being under law but under grace is so plainly make clear in Romans, Colossians, Galatians, Acts, and other places.
Ray,
You wrote:
“All this about not being under law but under grace is so plainly make clear in Romans, Colossians, Galatians, Acts, and other places.”
It is made very clear, but you do not want to believe what is written. You cannot accept it.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I in no way am saying that we are under the law. I am just saying what Messiah said and what the apostles wrote.
Messiah did not destroy the law.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Our faith in Messiah does not make the law void.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law tells us what sin is.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Transgression of the law is still sin.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We are not allowed to sin now that we are under grace:
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
If we transgress the law it is sin and we are in bondage to sin.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
The law instructs us in righteousness.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
We are to do that righteousness now that we have been freed from sin. But many people can’t understand this because of the weakness of their flesh.
Ro 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
We are not made justified by works.
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We are not saved by works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But we are expected to do the good works that were written before in YHWH’s law once we are saved.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We find the good works that were before ordained in YHWH’s law.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If we do not have works, our faith is dead.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
If we know what the law says and do not put into practice, we deceive ourselves.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Everyman will be judged and rewarded according to his works.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Those that keep YHWH’s law and teach others to keep it will be rewarded greatly.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
But some that call Messiah Lord will not be allowed into the kingdom. This is based upon their not doing the Fathers will and disregarding His law.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Only those that do YHWH’s commandments will get to eat from the tree of life.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Only those that keep YHWH’s commandments and want to keep them are really loving YHWH. Only those that love YHWH and keep His commandments are really loving their brothers.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
The new covenant is supposed to cause us to love YHWH’s law and want to do it…not just parts of it. That is what having it written on our hearts means
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Messiah came to redeem unto himself a people…a people that are zealous for good works.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And the Bible says that those good works are taught in YHWH’s law.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
But some twist Paul’s writings to say that we need not keep YHWH’s law. They think that we can break YHWH’s law (sin) that grace may abound.
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
2Pe 3:15 and account the long suffering of the lord to be redemption; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom conferred on him, wrote to you;
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which there is something difficult to be understood; and which they who are ignorant and unstable, pervert, as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction.—
17 ye therefore, my beloved, as ye know these things beforehand, guard yourselves, lest, by going after the error of the lawless, ye fall from your steadfastness.
Ray, why do you not accept the above scripture? It is obvious what they mean.
Dennis,
While I haven’t addressed your other points yet, let me quickly answer a couple things.
You have a very narrow view of what the New Testament is declaring and what Messiah came to do. If you are forgiven your sins according to the First Covenant, why are you now accountable to it when Messiah died for the judgment you incurred when you trespassed against Him?
Are you forgiven the sin of covetousness?
Of lying?
Of pride?
Yes, you are. Do you know it’s wrong to do those things? Yes, you do. Can you keep yourself from doing them again? No, you can’t.
Why not? Because while you walk in the spirit, you are still carrying around a body of flesh. This is what Paul talked about when he discussed the war that’s raging between the two. Without saying it’s okay to sin, he pointed out our need for Messiah because of this constant battle we wage. That’s not to say we give up fighting it, it’s to say He conquered the stronghold of satan, our accuser who could rightly condemn us for our sins. We have an advocate with the Father who is making intercession for us until such time that we are given our spiritual bodies that we might live in His presence. You can no more claim that you have already been perfected than anyone else can. If you truly believe you are then you are deluding yourself. If we ask for forgiveness, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There’s a war going on! You haven’t conquered it—Messiah has!
If it wasn’t “all” paid for on the Cross, then none of it was.
Thanks.
Sheila wrote:
“If we ask for forgiveness, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
The man that wrote your quote said that sin is the transgression of the law. Do you confess not keeping the 7th day Sabbath? If not, you are not forgiven. Being cleansed from all unrighteousness is predicated upon realizing that breaking YHWH’s law is unrighteousness and our confessing it as sin. Being cleansed from all unrighteousness is not the same as being forgiven. Being forgiven is for our past sin that we have repented of and confessed. Being cleansed from unrighteousness means that we stop doing unrighteousness. We stop participating in transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin…
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Forgiveness means that it is no longer on our record. Cleansing from unrighteousness means that we stop doing it…lest we prove ourselves to be of the devil.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Shalom
Good morning Dennis,
“You guys are letting your theology determine the meaning here.” We are letting scripture determine the meaning. I will show with an example where you are taking passages out of context:
You posit that Ezekiel 11:19-20 are a present reality. But that is not so. Here is the passage in context:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
-The same God that scattered Israel (v. 14-16) has every intention of regathering them back into their own land (v.17) so that regenerate Israel can cleanse the Land of all pollution (v.18). Ezekiel picks this up again in chapter 36:24. Jesus Himself also speaks of this regathering as being future in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27:
Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Other prophets spoke of this future regathering and regeneration:
Isaiah 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Jeremiah 24:7
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Jeremiah 50:19-20
19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.
20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
Which brings us to Ezekiel 11:19-20
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
So using Ezekiel in connection with Romans 3:31 is exegetically contextually incorrect.
Regarding Matthew 5:17-19 and the meaning of the word fulfil, the Greek term is consistently used by Matthew in reference to fulfilling prophecy and so bringing it to an end. Matthew 1:22-23 states that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled, that this brought the prophecy to an end and so nothing in the future will fulfill it. To “fulfill” meant to accomplish what prophecy demanded while to “abolish” meant to fail to accomplish it.
How do we establish the Law of Moses when elsewhere the Scriptures tell us that we utterly fail at obeying the Law? Romans 7 displays this fact. Also Acts 15:10,24
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
So no, we do not establish the Law by works but by our position in Messiah.
“The sanctity of the law is never preserved by those who attempt to keep it. The holy will of God is ever wrought by any person other than Christ. The effort of humanity has universally failed. The supposition that God will be pleased and honored by any fleshly attempt to do His will is a delusion as old as the race. Those who try to keep the law, or try by their own effort to do the whole will of God, outrage the law at every step by their absolute failure. On the other hand, those who, in recognition of the righteous character of the law, bow before those holy demands, acknowledging their utter failure and inability to fulfill them, and who flee to Christ that they may stand in His redemption, and partake of the very righteousness of God in Him, and be sheltered under the Cross whereon He met every demand of the law for them, are the ones who really uphold the law, or keep it. “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Rom. 3:31).
We may conclude, then, that every aspect of the reign of the law has ceased with the death of Christ and the introduction of the reign of grace. There is no longer any obligation to do the things which are written in the law, only as they have been transferred and restated under the teachings of grace; there is no longer any obligation to secure favor with God by human merit; and there is no longer any yoke of bondage, or impossible burden to do what no flesh has ever been able to do. There is perfect liberty and victory in the priceless provisions of grace; “For ye are not under the law but under grace.”
How did I get suckered back into this very old and tired thread? argh!
Sheila,
I intend on commenting on your last post but I will first address Benjamin.
Benjamin,
You wrote:
“So no, we do not establish the Law by works but by our position in Messiah.”
You are right and wrong. We do not establish the law by works. Amen!
We establish it by faith, not by our position.
How does faith establish the law? By giving us a new heart and writing YHWH’s law upon our hearts so that we want to do it. If we want to do it, we do it. Real faith produces works. So our faith makes YHWH’s law to continue or hold firm because it produces what the law written on stone could not do. It produces a people zealous for good works. It produces a people that search the scriptures and are not forgetful hearers but doers of the word.
Not a jot of tittle passes from the law until “All” is fulfilled. Many things are yet to be fulfilled. It is true that Messiah fulfilled being called a Nazarene and that he bare our diseases and that he rode on a foal of an ass and that his garments would be parted. No one can fulfill what He fulfilled concerning prophecy. Nothing is ever said about Him fulfilling not committing adultery and now we do not have to fulfill that commandment. Nothing is said any where that what is in force is only what is restated in the writings that we compiled and called the “New Testament.” You are taking Messiah’s words against what they obviously mean for he went on to say:
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And we know which commandments He was speaking of…the ones in the law.
Shalom
Ok Bo, I see you just don’t comprehend the Law of Christ. By no means have we ever said that we can commit adultery because the Law of Moses has passed. In the life of Grace we are called to an even higher, heavenly life which can only be lived out by the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling us and when we are properly adjusted to the Spirit as to walk by the Spirit (which conforms to the law of Christ, the law written on our hearts).
Faith and our position are synonymous. When we have faith, we obtain our position.
Benjamin,
The law of Messiah does not eliminate YHWH’s law. If I do not lust after a woman, I will not commit adultery. If I do not lust to do things my own way or to please men, I will keep YHWH’s Sabbath. If I do not lust after flavors that YHWH forbids, I will not eat what He has called unclean. I think that it is you who do not understand the law of Messiah, for His law does not abolish YHWH’s law. Deal with what He said.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Messiah goes on to teach us that only doing these things on the outside is not good enough. He goes on to say that real righteousness goes deeper than outward obedience. He never says that we have inward righteousness if we do not keep YHWH’s commandments. He never says that inward righteousness lets us ignore YHWH’s Torah.
Shalom
Benjamin,
You wrote:
“Faith and our position are synonymous. When we have faith, we obtain our position.”
This is only true if our faith causes us to keep YHWH’s law. The law is not established by us not keeping it, no matter how much faith we say we have.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Dead faith does not establish YHWH’s law. Faith establishes YHWH’s law beacuse it produces obedience to YHWH’s law.
Shalom
Benjamin,
You wrote:
“Ok Bo, I see you just don’t comprehend the Law of Christ. By no means have we ever said that we can commit adultery because the Law of Moses has passed. In the life of Grace we are called to an even higher, heavenly life which can only be lived out by the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling us and when we are properly adjusted to the Spirit as to walk by the Spirit (which conforms to the law of Christ, the law written on our hearts).”
The above is only and accusation and an assertion and in no way a refutation of what I posted. Do you intend to become another Ray? I expect better of you Benjamin.
You doctrine does say that we may break YHWH’s Sabbath. Messiah doctrine does not. The Law of Messiah cannot contradict His doctrine. We do not love our neighbors or YHWH, if we continue to disregard YHWH’s commandments. How can one say they are keeping the law of Messiah and not care that they are failing continuously and on purpose, or at least with disregard, as to keeping YHWH’s commandments.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If the law of Messiah is a higher spiritual calling to righteousness and holiness, it ought to at least accomplish the lesser calling of physical righteousness and holiness.
Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
The law written on our hearts is supposed to be YHWH’s law. If your “law of Christ” contradicts or makes YHWH’s law void, it is the false Messiah’s law. It is anti-Messiah.
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Shalom
Benjamin,
Perhaps I was not clear in the point I was trying to make. My point was that God changes Israels heart so that they will walk after his Torah just like Rom 3.31 says. The Law is not made inoperative or uneffectual on a believers life through faith but is upheld through faith. You can argue the present reality but the new covenant in jeremiah 31 applies to my verse and what your saying as well. The full realization of the new covenant has not come about yet but in both passages specifically Israel will walk in gods torah of which covenant you partake of.
I’ll comment on matt 5.17-19 later but needless to say you are not interpreting it within it’s direct context just like Rom 3.31.
I have essentially interpreted Rom 3.31 in context. You again are in fact interpreting it thru your own theology and using verses to impose your meaning and not letting paul do it in context.
You are rendering the law ineffective or “overthrowing” it by basically saying the reign of the law has ceased. This something faith does not do. Faith “upholds” the law. How? By trusting in Yeshua and the holy spirit to give you the power to obey or has paul says “the will to do his will”.
You are going against the direct context and words of this passage. Other verses outside the context do not change the meaning. Also, did you read my comment on eph 6.1-3? Paul certainly does not have the view you are proposing as he appeals to the authority of thw law to say children obey your parents.
thats all i can say for now. Pardon my words here as i am texting.
Bo,
What James and John wrote are true, however, I feel absolutely certain that if you were there and pressed them—-they would have to rightly admit that none of us is without sin!!!—-which it says in Scripture! You’re the one that always stops short of “the rest of the story…”
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Bo and Dennis—
Until the two of you admit that there were different audiences being addressed in Scripture. you’re going to keep coming up against seemingly contradictory Scriptures. Not that saying “sin is the transgression of the law” part is contradictory. God gave the moral laws—He is perfect and righteous—we are not. He gave us the yardstick by which He would show us our need for a Savior—the same Savior promised in the Garden of Eden when we had only 1 commandment to keep and we blew it!
When you take those disciples that grew up with the law, lived the law, had their being and upbringing in the law, their message is slightly different when writing to the Jews—-and they did—-write to the Jews. When they mention law, though, it’s in light of the New Testament and you just refuse to acknowledge that. They were disciples to the circumcision and Paul was the disciple to the Gentiles. As I said before, nine out of ten times, when the law is mentioned in the NT, it’s referring to the moral laws not the 613 given to the Israelites.
Even Peter, who the Catholic church claims as their first pope, decided to witness to the Jews and leave the Gentiles to Paul.
That’s why, too, that when Paul went to the Gentiles his message was “not” about the law but was all about the Gospel—the Gospel—the Gospel. Of course he taught on righteousness—some of these converts came out of paganism and idolatry. Sometimes he used analogies and teachings from the First Testament as there were also Jews and proselytes in the congregations. However, he never taught the gentiles that they needed to keep the law of Moses. He railed against such thoughts time and time again….and suffered persecution for teaching the truth of the Gospel apart from the law.
Concerning Paul taking James advice when he went to the temple, please notice that Paul is silent after the request is made, he doesn’t speak again until the crowd gathers to throw him out and later when they would have killed him, they remained silent until the part about “going to the gentiles with the message.” Now why was that??? Have you asked yourselves that question because I think it’s important to understanding “why” the Gospel message wasn’t better received.
I see that it was because they didn’t understand their Scriptures that related the truth that was given to, first, Peter (who didn’t really understand it either until Paul called him out on it and later backed him up during the Council of Jerusalem), then to Paul who was “called according to the will of God” and by Messiah Himself to take His Name to the ends of the earth—something the Jews had not yet done.
So, it seems to me, that you either have to negate the whole kit and kaboodle or accept it for what it is—“that salvation has come to the Gentiles apart from the law of Moses.” You’re trying to have it both ways and that is not God’s plan of salvation.
And because you “know” that you can’t tack it on “before” we’re saved—your only alternative is to tack it on “after.” Neither one is Scriptural and you’re outside of the will of God to teach contrary to anything other than Christ crucified—yes, and risen for our sanctification, our justification and our SALVATION.
Bo,
When Jesus came to Saul on the road to Damascus, and called him to be an apostle of his, do you think it was to destroy the law and the prophets, or that his ministry might be about establishing all that, by obedience to the gospel of Christ which he was about to teach him?
One of the things the Lord taught Paul was about how the law was abolished. (See II Cor 3:13, Eph 2:15 KJV)
It seems to me that some people’s work on this blog here is to destroy the law and the prophets, as well as the gospel….no matter what they might say, or what their opinion might be about that.
Sheila,
Regarding post 708 I say a hearty AMEN to most of what you said. I’m not sure why you felt you had to say all that as you and I do agree on most of it. However, I will comment on these points:
You said:
“You have a very narrow view of what the New Testament is declaring and what Messiah came to do. If you are forgiven your sins according to the First Covenant, why are you now accountable to it when Messiah died for the judgment you incurred when you trespassed against Him?”
I’m not sure if I’m quite understanding what you are meaning by “narrow view” but I will comment. If my comment doesn’t apply that please clarify what you mean.
If you mean by “narrow view” that I don’t agree with “Jesus fulfilled the Law so you don’t have to” type of understanding then you can say I am. Why? It’s not Biblical. More on that later perhaps.
What I am essentially trying to do is two things. Regarding the verses and Biblical interpretation I seek to understand the way the original readers would have understood the meaning of passages as best as I can.
Does that mean there are “narrow interpretations”-Yes.
Can there be multiple applications? Yes. But those applications cannot violate or go against the meaning of a passage.
I’m simply showing or demonstrating the “boundries” that Scriptural texts have when I see that “your” side seems to want to not recognize them at times. It seems that some verses get “over spiritualized” or even “spiritualized” when a verse was intended to be straight forward. Or, a passage may be overload with theological presuppositions while failing to recognize the plain or simple meaning that is intended.
Regarding this comment specifically:
“If you are forgiven your sins according to the First Covenant, why are you now accountable to it when Messiah died for the judgment you incurred when you trespassed against Him?”
Based on this comment it’s not me that has the “narrow view” but you. The purpose of the Torah was not to just “show sin”. I’ve mentioned this more than once and you fail to really engage with me on this and at the same time you keep arguing the point above. This seems to be the point you and many Christians get hung up and stuck on. This is at least one of your blind spots here and you fail to recognize it.
Let me speak plainly on this. While one function of the Torah is to point out sin and while Messiah paid for the penalties of breaking the Torah that does not mean we then still disobey it. But that’s not all, the Torah is God’s instructions for right living or to put it another way, instructions to maximize your life in this world. The Torah is not just about “eternal” things but also “temporal” things.
Paul put it this way:
Rom 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
If the Torah’s intention was not to, nor could ever bring about “Salvation” what does Paul mean here by saying it “promised life”?
Deu 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
You should understand this as you know that failing to obey even “the moral law” has earthly consequences. If you cheat with the wrong someone’s spouse that spouse could come and kill you.(That’s aside from any consequences that may or may not be applicable from the Torah) You clearly understand what I’m saying.
Though Yeshua has removed the eternal consequences of not following His Torah you still may suffer the earthly consequences of not doing this.(You also still suffer the “relationship” hinderances/consequences sin brings both with God and man) So your point of why are you still accountable is answered by that previous statement. This is not something hard to understand and I know you agree with the principle.
Your focus is too narrow. The main thing the New Covenant does is exactly what it said it does: give you a new heart to obey His commands, which is what I’ve argued and is essentially what you say also. We just differ on what commands. Like you said I don’t have the power to obey in my own strength but the Spirit does. Your point however does not negate what I’ve been saying.
When you break the Law of the land and the fine is paid the Law is not taken away but your “debt to it”. You still are accountable to the Law and are expected to continue to “live within its’ boundries”. This is not a hard thing to grasp yet some want to act like it is.
Another big issue is the perception of the Law being negative. Please don’t say you don’t see it that way as your arguments and the way you argue says otherwise. David said that His Law is to be more desired than Gold and is sweeter than honey. Jews of the Bible did not perceive God’s Law negatively but honored it and loved it(if they were righteous). Why do we see it that way? If God’s Law is Good why is it that we seek to live outside it and not to live by that which is good?
That’s all I can say for now.
Sheila,
You wrote:
“What James and John wrote are true, however, I feel absolutely certain that if you were there and pressed them—-they would have to rightly admit that none of us is without sin!!!—-which it says in Scripture! You’re the one that always stops short of “the rest of the story…”
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Yes and Amen. But that is not the rest of the story… They would have also said that we may not continue to break YHWH’s law that grace may abound.
Shalom
A Christian can not be eased of his burden of sin by strict adherence to the law. He must come to the cross of Christ for that deliverance.
If one who calls himself a Christian has the message that in order to legally establish the law by Romans 3:31, one must strictly adhere to keeping Sabbath days, the Jewish holydays, new moons, and not eat “forbidden” meats, then he is not a true Christian, for true Christians know that strict adherence to a form of doctrine of the law, can not release them from their guilt of sin.
We must beware of legality, lawyerly manipulations of scripture, and legalism.
Romans 3:28-31
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
II Cor 3 speaks of what was put away by God in order for the new to take effect.
II Cor 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Galations also warns us of legalism, and other scriptures also. Romans gives us a good foundation in the gospel of Christ.
Eph 2:15,16
Having abolished in this flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The enmity between us and God, and between Jew and Gentile was two fold. Sin and the law both divided us, and separated us from God.
The cross of Christ answered both of those things which were the enmity.
There are some who wish to avoid the cross through legalism, even calling themselves born again Christians, even claiming the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which may be, and they may have, in which case it happened to them according to the true proverb of a dog returning to his own vomit, and the sow to wallowing in the mire, for they have gone back into Egypt, back into the city of destruction, (the flesh) having turned back from going to the heavenly city.
The gospel of Christ calls us to be led of the Holy Spirit, and let that be our guide.
A legalist will often want to disciples others with many scriptures, saying they have no sin, denying the truth that was given them.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin. (Psalm 32:1,2)
If there are no sins we know of, why worry about it? God doesn’t want us stressing ourselves or worrying about sin all the time.
But what about the glaring sins, the things we should know of? Are we in denial? Do we deny the truth and say that we have no sin?
Ray Wrote:
“Eph 2:15,16
Having abolished in this flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The enmity between us and God, and between Jew and Gentile was two fold. Sin and the law both divided us, and separated us from God.”
Anyone can see that you do not understand me or the scripture. Read the following instead of glancing at it. Look at the scriptures and see the Greek words that are used. None are so blind as those that close their eyes.
Ray you have struck out this time. Here are the 3 strikes against you.
How about some context?
Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Strike one, the enmity, that Paul speaks of here, was between the Jews and the Gentiles and not between YHWH and man. Messiah broke down the middle wall of partition between the Jews and the Gentiles. Yes, He abolished something. He abolished the enmity.
Strike 1! Ray’s statement is not backed up by the scripture.
Strike two, the word “abolished” in the verse that you quoted is the same Greek word as “make void” in Romans 3:31.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished (Strong’s #2673) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
“Abolish” and “make void” are the same word and mean the same thing. We know for sure that YHWH’s law is not abolished/made void…because Paul says so in no uncertain terms and in the strongest of language…”God forbid.” So whatever was abolished/made void in Ephesians 2:15 was not YHWH’s law.
Strike 2! Ray’s idea about what was abolished is not backed up by scripture either.
Strike three, the Greek word in Ephesians 2:15 that is translated “ordinances” is never used of YHWH’s ordinances. It is used of manmade ordinances/decrees.
For example:
Lu 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree (Strong’s #1378) from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Ac 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees (Strong’s #1378) of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (Strong’s #1378); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
We have a word in English that comes from this Greek word. As a matter of fact, it is pronounced the same and means the same thing. The word is “dogma.”
Dogma: a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted
: a belief or set of beliefs that is taught by a religious organization–http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogma
What was the wall between Jews and Gentiles? It certainly was not YHWH’s Torah. There is no law in YHWH’s word that separates the two. There are thousands of manmade dogmas/ordinances that the Rabbis came up with that do keep the Jews and Gentiles from being joined together.
Strike 3! Ray’s idea about what divided the Jew from the Gentile is not backed up by scripture.
Three strikes…your out, Ray!
Hi Bo and Dennis,
Dennis, just to clarify, I wasn’t answering anything in particular above, I was just summarizing my position.
Also, if you will go to Dr. Brown’s show with the interview of James Robison, in the second hour beginning about the 50:00 minute mark to the 58 minute mark, he answers a caller’s question about the Torah and the dietary laws! Yeap—in eight minutes he manages to neatly sum it up!
You should take a listen.
Still working on my tutorials.
Thanks.
Thanks for the responses Bo,
“You doctrine does say that we may break YHWH’s Sabbath. Messiah doctrine does not.”
No the Bible does not say that Israel may break YHWH’s Sabbath. It says that the Sabbath is no longer a law. If it is no longer a law, Israel cannot break it (seeing it was only given to national Israel). [see referent: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2014/06/10/tackling-the-theological-controversies-including-the-place-of-the-law-in-the-life-of-the-believer/ ]
“The above is only and accusation and an assertion and in no way a refutation of what I posted. Do you intend to become another Ray? I expect better of you Benjamin.”
This is why people typically get frustrated chatting with you Bo, because when they respond to a baseless accusation you have railed at them, you then take issue with the response and take a “I am holier than thou” stance. This was in response to your accusation of “Nothing is ever said about Him fulfilling not committing adultery and now we do not have to fulfill that commandment. “ which was a strawman, hence a baseless accusation that I or those who have embraced the law of Christ now believe that we are free to commit adultery. We have repeated told you that we do not since that would be contrary to the Law of Christ. So I will post a bit of information about the New Covenant and the Law of Christ.
———————-
THE NEW COVENANT
A. Scripture
A number of passages speak of or relate to the New Covenant and many of these will be referenced below. But the foundational passage is Jeremiah 31:31-34:
Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says Jehovah. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
B. The Participants in the Covenant
This covenant is made between God and Israel, and it receives further confirmation in other passages including: Isaiah 55:3; 59:21; 61:8-9; Jeremiah 32:40; Ezekiel 16:60; 34:25-31; 37:26-28; and Romans 11:26-27.
C. The Provisions of the Covenant
From the original covenant, its various confirmations, and its inauguration in the New Testament, a total of nine provisions can be listed.
First: it is an unconditional covenant involving God and both Houses of Israel (Jer. 31:31). It is not made merely between Judah and God or between Israel and God, but included both Houses of Israel; hence, it includes the entire Jewish nation: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It should be noted that it is not made with the Church.
Second: it is clearly distinct from the Mosaic Covenant (Jer. 31:32). It is not merely a further elaboration of the Mosaic Covenant, but it is distinct from it. It is ultimately to replace the Mosaic Covenant that was now considered broken.
Third: it promises the regeneration of Israel (Jer. 31:33; Is. 59:21). The key aspect of this entire covenant is the blessing of salvation, which included Israel’s national regeneration.
Fourth: the regeneration of Israel is to be universal among all Jews (Jer. 31:34a; Is. 61:9). The national salvation is to extend to every individual Jewish person, and it is to be true through succeeding generations from the time that the initial regeneration of Israel occurs. Thus, during the Kingdom, the unregenerate people will all be Gentiles; in the entire period of the Kingdom, there will be no unsaved Jews. That is the reason there will be no need for one Jew to say to another know the Lord, for they shall all know Him.
Fifth: there is provision for the forgiveness of sin (Jer. 31:34b). The New Covenant will do the very thing that the Mosaic Covenant was unable to do. The Mosaic Covenant was able only to cover the sins of Israel, but the New Covenant will take them away. This is a corollary blessing to the blessing of salvation.
Sixth: there is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Jer. 31:33; Ezek. 36:27). The reason Israel failed to keep the Law under the Mosaic Covenant was that the people lacked the power to comply with the righteous standards of God. The Mosaic Law did not provide the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; that was not its purpose. But the New Covenant will do just that, and every Jew will be enabled to do the righteous work of God. This is a blessing resulting from the blessing of salvation.
Seventh: Israel will be showered with material blessings (Is. 61:8; Jer. 32:41; Ezek. 34:25-27). The Mosaic Law did provide material blessings for obedience, but for the most part, Israel was in disobedience because of her failure to keep the Law. However, such failure will not exist under the New Covenant. Along with Israel’s regeneration and empowerment to keep the Law, material blessings will be given by the Lord.
Eighth: The Sanctuary will be rebuilt (Ezek. 37:26-28). The Mosaic Covenant provided for the building of the Tabernacle. The Davidic Covenant provided for the building of the First Temple by Solomon. The New Covenant will provide for the building of the Messianic or Millennial Temple. This Temple will be a continual reminder to Israel of all that God has done.
Ninth: Just as the Mosaic Covenant contained the Law of Moses, the New Covenant contains the Law of the Messiah (Rom. 8:2; Gal. 6:2). Like the Law of Moses, the Law of the Messiah contains many individual commandments that are applicable to the New Testament believer. These commandments were given either by Yeshua directly or by the apostles. A simple comparison of the details will show that it is not and cannot be the same as the Law of Moses. Four observations are worth noting. First, many commandments are the same as those of the Law of Moses. For example, nine of the Ten Commandments are also in the Law of the Messiah. But, second, many are different from the Law of Moses. For example, there is no Sabbath law now (Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:16) and no dietary code (Mk. 7:19; Rom. 14:20). Third, some commandments in the Law of Moses are intensified by the Law of the Messiah. For example, the Law of Moses said: love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18); this made man the standard. The Law of the Messiah said: love one another, even as I have loved you (Jn. 15:12); this makes the Messiah the standard and He loved man enough to die for him. Fourth, the Law of the Messiah provides a new motivation. For example, the Law of Moses was based on the conditional Mosaic Covenant and so the motivation was: Do, in order to be blessed. The Law of the Messiah is based on the unconditional New Covenant and so the motivation is: You have been and are blessed, therefore, do. The reason there is so much confusion over the relationship of the Law of Moses and the Law of the Messiah is that many commandments are similar to those found in the Mosaic Law, and many have concluded that certain sections of the Law have therefore been retained. It has already been shown that this cannot be the case, and the explanation for the sameness of the commandments is to be found elsewhere.
This explanation can best be understood if it is realized that there are a number of codes in the Bible, such as the Edenic Code, Adamic Code, Noahic Code, Mosaic Code, New Code, and Kingdom Code. A new code may contain some of the same commandments of the previous code, but this does not mean that the previous code is still in effect. While certain of the commandments of the Adamic Code were also found in the Edenic Code, it did not mean that the Edenic Code was still partially in force; it ceased to function with the Fall of Man. The same is true when we compare the Law of the Messiah with the Law of Moses. There are many similar commandments. For example, nine of the Ten Commandments are to be found in the Law of the Messiah, but this does not mean that the Law of Moses is still in force. The Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative and we are now under the Law of the Messiah. There are many different commandments. For example, under the Law of Moses, we would not be permitted to eat pork, but under the Law of the Messiah, we may (I love it when Bo says we hold to this doctrine because we ‘lust’ after the flavor). There are many similar commandments, but they are nonetheless in two separate systems. If we do not kill or steal today, it is not because of the Law of Moses but because of the Law of the Messiah. On the other hand, if someone steals, he is not guilty of breaking the Law of Moses, but of breaking the Law of the Messiah. The present obligation to obey the Law of the Messiah is due to the present outworking of the New Covenant.
http://www.messianicassociation.org/
———————–
And if need be I can address the Churches relationship to the New Covenant.
And this next comment is what your theology forces you to believe, “If your “law of Christ” contradicts or makes YHWH’s law void, it is the false Messiah’s law. It is anti-Messiah.” -Which taken to its natural conclusion is a declaration that those who adhere to the Law of Christ are unsaved and following an anti-Christ. But I follow the foundations laid down by the Apostles and Messiah.
Bo, let’s seek that blessing together.
Dennis, I know you have responded to me so I will read that soon and give what hopefully will be my final post since after nearly 2000 posts, neither side has moved an inch and as Dr. Brown said on Air yesterday “After a point you have to stop since it becomes a waste of time”. And I don’t mean chatting with anyone, just chatting about a particular topic that is going nowhere.
Grace and peace brothers, and dear sister Sheila.
Oh Sheila,
I forgot to give you the name of the book I quoted from a few posts back. It is ‘Grace’ by Lewis Sperry Chafer.
Thank you, Benjamin, for the blessing and for your kindness over the years.
Thanks for the title, I’m always seeking something new to read.
Wishing you peace as well and every good blessing in Messiah, Jesus!
Bo,
I feel it urgent to warn you that you are dangerously close to uttering blasphemy of the worst kind when you make remarks like this:
““If your “law of Christ” contradicts or makes YHWH’s law void, it is the false Messiah’s law. It is anti-Messiah.”
Do you not remember what the Lord said to the Pharisees when they accused Him of casting out demons with the power of satan? What was His response?
Mat 12:32 “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 3:29 “but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
Luk 12:10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.
Job 15:12 Why does your heart carry you away,
And what do your eyes wink at,
13 That you turn your spirit against God,
And let such words go out of your mouth?
You sometimes get way too carried away with yourself. Be careful, Bo.
Thanks.
Dennis,
I appreciate the manner in which you engage on this topic, I feel your heart.
“The full realization of the new covenant has not come about yet but in both passages specifically Israel will walk in gods torah of which covenant you partake of.” -True, and scripture tells us that the Mosaic covenant is not the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). It is a different covenant. And the Mosaic covenant is said to have faded away already (Hebrews 8:13 (7-13)).
For the rest of the post I would pretty much say Amen. But as I stated in the post above this one. We know that the Mosaic Law has been rendered inoperative. So if children dishonor or disobey their parents they are not breaking the Law of Moses, but the Law of the Messiah. So the only real difference here is that we see this rule coming from two distinct law systems.
Sheila and Benjamin,
What exactly is the “law of Christ” as far as your concerned. Please back up your ideas from scripture.
Shalom
Sheila,
You wrote:
“I feel it urgent to warn you that you are dangerously close to uttering blasphemy of the worst kind when you make remarks like this:
‘If your “law of Christ” contradicts or makes YHWH’s law void, it is the false Messiah’s law. It is anti-Messiah.’
Do you not remember what the Lord said to the Pharisees when they accused Him of casting out demons with the power of satan? What was His response?…
You sometimes get way too carried away with yourself. Be careful, Bo.”
And you don’t get too carried away with yourself sometimes?
I stand behind my statement. If any supposed law of Messiah contradicts or makes void the Father’s law, it is against Messiah’s and YHWH’s doctrine.
Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him…
There is big difference between attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the Devil and saying what I have said. As a matter of fact, Messiah said that words spoken against Him would be forgiven. You have not paid attention to half of each of the passages that you quote. This is what I think you do with most of the passages you base your ideas on concerning the topic of keeping YHWH’s Torah.
And still I do not take what I said lightly, and neither should you. If you cannot prove me completely wrong by the scripture, you are in danger of missing out on being great in the kingdom and maybe of not getting in.
The beginning and the end of the “sermon on the mount” say it quite succinctly:
Mt 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ESV
Mt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ ESV
Shalom
Bo’s law contradicts the law of God, for as the apostle Paul said to those who desired to be under the law, “Do ye not hear the law?” Then he went on to explain how Abraham having two sons was an allegory, one son being free, and the other the son of a bondwoman, and the son of the bondwoman would not be heir of the promise, but only the one who was born of promise.
This was an allegory of the two covenants, the one from Mt Sinai, which is concerning bondage, and answers to a worldly Jerusalem, while the other covenant concerns the Jerusalem which is from above, and is free and is the mother of us all who believe the gospel.
So it seems that those who seek to keep every Sabbath, eat only meats that were acceptable to eat under the law, and keep Jewish holydays, as well as whatever else they believe they must do to “establish” the law, really are in contradiction to the law, in violation of it, and not only but they who go about teaching others to contradict the law through their form of legalism, are sinning against the law, living in disobedience to God, and going about another way to fulfill righteousness, rather than living free according to the city which is from above and has given them a new birth, if in fact they have been born again.
So, Bo, are you ready for the day of judgment when by one’s own words, one will be justified or fall into condemnation?
Are you sure you are ready? According to your rule above, since your “law of Christ” contradicts the law of God, or makes the law void….what then?
Will you come to the cross and repent? I suggest you save yourself from the day of wrath to come which will come upon all the ungodly, and that, without them being prepared or even seeing it coming.
Bo, Galatians, especially notice chapter 4.
The law prophesied it’s own ending, and being inadequate to save the lost, and how no man would be saved except by the gospel of Christ which it told of in mysterious ways.
Ray Wrote:
“Eph 2:15,16
Having abolished in this flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The enmity between us and God, and between Jew and Gentile was two fold. Sin and the law both divided us, and separated us from God.”
Anyone can see that you do not understand me or the scripture. Read the following instead of glancing at it. Look at the scriptures and see the Greek words that are used. None are so blind as those that close their eyes.
Ray you have struck out this time. Here are the 3 strikes against you.
How about some context?
Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Strike one, the enmity, that Paul speaks of here, was between the Jews and the Gentiles and not between YHWH and man. Messiah broke down the middle wall of partition between the Jews and the Gentiles. Yes, He abolished something. He abolished the enmity.
Strike 1! Ray’s statement is not backed up by the scripture.
Strike two, the word “abolished” in the verse that you quoted is the same Greek word as “make void” in Romans 3:31.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished (Strong’s #2673) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
“Abolish” and “make void” are the same word and mean the same thing. We know for sure that YHWH’s law is not abolished/made void…because Paul says so in no uncertain terms and in the strongest of language…”God forbid.” So whatever was abolished/made void in Ephesians 2:15 was not YHWH’s law.
Strike 2! Ray’s idea about what was abolished is not backed up by scripture either.
Strike three, the Greek word in Ephesians 2:15 that is translated “ordinances” is never used of YHWH’s ordinances. It is used of manmade ordinances/decrees.
For example:
Lu 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree (Strong’s #1378) from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Ac 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees (Strong’s #1378) of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (Strong’s #1378); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
We have a word in English that comes from this Greek word. As a matter of fact, it is pronounced the same and means the same thing. The word is “dogma.”
Dogma: a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted
: a belief or set of beliefs that is taught by a religious organization–http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogma
What was the wall between Jews and Gentiles? It certainly was not YHWH’s Torah. There is no law in YHWH’s word that separates the two. There are thousands of manmade dogmas/ordinances that the Rabbis came up with that do keep the Jews and Gentiles from being joined together.
Strike 3! Ray’s idea about what divided the Jew from the Gentile is not backed up by scripture.
Three strikes…your out, Ray!
Will you ever answer?
Ray,
You wrote:
“All this about not being under law but under grace is so plainly make clear in Romans, Colossians, Galatians, Acts, and other places.”
It is made very clear, but you do not want to believe what is written. You cannot accept it.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I in no way am saying that we are under the law. I am just saying what Messiah said and what the apostles wrote.
Messiah did not destroy the law.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Our faith in Messiah does not make the law void.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law tells us what sin is.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Transgression of the law is still sin.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We are not allowed to sin now that we are under grace:
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
If we transgress the law it is sin and we are in bondage to sin.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
The law instructs us in righteousness.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
We are to do that righteousness now that we have been freed from sin. But many people can’t understand this because of the weakness of their flesh.
Ro 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
We are not made justified by works.
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We are not saved by works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But we are expected to do the good works that were written before in YHWH’s law once we are saved.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We find the good works that were before ordained in YHWH’s law.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If we do not have works, our faith is dead.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
If we know what the law says and do not put into practice, we deceive ourselves.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Everyman will be judged and rewarded according to his works.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Those that keep YHWH’s law and teach others to keep it will be rewarded greatly.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
But some that call Messiah Lord will not be allowed into the kingdom. This is based upon their not doing the Fathers will and disregarding His law.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Only those that do YHWH’s commandments will get to eat from the tree of life.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Only those that keep YHWH’s commandments and want to keep them are really loving YHWH. Only those that love YHWH and keep His commandments are really loving their brothers.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
The new covenant is supposed to cause us to love YHWH’s law and want to do it…not just parts of it. That is what having it written on our hearts means
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Messiah came to redeem unto himself a people…a people that are zealous for good works.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And the Bible says that those good works are taught in YHWH’s law.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
But some twist Paul’s writings to say that we need not keep YHWH’s law. They think that we can break YHWH’s law (sin) that grace may abound.
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
2Pe 3:15 and account the long suffering of the lord to be redemption; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom conferred on him, wrote to you;
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which there is something difficult to be understood; and which they who are ignorant and unstable, pervert, as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction.—
17 ye therefore, my beloved, as ye know these things beforehand, guard yourselves, lest, by going after the error of the lawless, ye fall from your steadfastness.
Ray, why do you not accept the above scripture? It is obvious what they mean.
Why do you not deal with it?
Ray wrote:
“Legalists always seem to be destitute of that which is agreeable to good Christians.”
People that always are calling other people names and insulting them are probably not the Biblical scholars or spiritual giants that they think they are.
How about trying to answer some simple questions instead of just trash talking?
Ray wrote:
“I believe the law was abolished as the scripture says, but that it’s not been destroyed in the sense that we may still read it and learn from it, something God preserved for us by his love and grace to us in Christ Jesus.”
You are playing semantic games. It is ludicrous to say it not being destroyed means that is is physically still here or that it exists for us to look at or that we can learn from it though it is abolished. Messiah and Paul both say that it is not abolished.
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. RSV
Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth
You still refuse to answer some very simple points. Why is that? What are you hiding? Why do you have not direct answer? Here is your chance to disprove me.
Ray wrote:
“No one can understand you. What you offer here is indigestible.”
You’re the only one that has said that Ray. Is it that no one can understand me, or is it that you refuse to try to understand the passages of scripture I quote? Is it because you only glance at my posts, instead of actually reading them? Shall we try one concept at a time? Ray see if you can understand this:
Point #1
In English, “abolish” and “destroy” and “make void” are basically synonyms as proven by these three translations of the very same Greek word.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish (Strong’s #2647) the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish (Strong’s #2647) them but to fulfil them. RSV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void (Strong’s #2647) the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. Darby
Point #2
Messiah did not come to destroy/abolish/make void the law. Paul destroyed something. Whatever Paul destroyed/abolished/maid void, it was not the law, because if Messiah didn’t destroy it, Paul would not and could not either.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Strong’s #2647), I make myself a transgressor.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil.
Point #3
Paul stopped keeping the traditions of Judiasm, He did not stop keeping YHWH’s law. Paul destroyed the religion of manmade commandments and salvation by works. He did not destroy or stop keeping YHWH’s law…he proved that he did not.
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Point #4
The law is not made void/abolished/destroyed/done away with by our faith. Paul says this very emphatically. Whatever has been done away with/made void/abolished/destroyed in Messiah, it is not YHWH’s law. The vail of manmade traditions and ordinances is what is done away with. These ordinances of man have blinded the Jews to Messiah. They keep them from doing YHWH’s commandments.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away (Strong’s #2673) in Christ.
Point #5
The law is established by our faith. “Established” is the same word as “continued” as is proven by the two passages below that use the same Greek word. Our faith does not destroy/make void/destroy the law…it causes YHWH’s law to continue.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Strong’s #2476) the law.
Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue (Strong’s #2476) unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Ray, these are 5 easy things for you to answer directly. Take them one at a time and label them and try to show my error from the scripture. If you cannot do this, your stance is false. If you will not do this, you are refuted.
Have you ever heard of a Strong’s Concordance? Do you know how to look up words that are the same in Greek? Do you understand that my above posts show that according to the Greek you are making ridiculous statements?
The commandments contained in ordinances are manmade ordinances. That is what the word dogma “ordinances” means.
Destroying the law is the same as abolishing it or making it void.
Just take the points 1 through 5 and address each in logical and scriptural manner so that we can all see if you are correct. If you won’t, you have conceded the debate.
How long will you shirk?
You still have only shirked.
Only shirked…
Ray,
In your above posts, you accuse, insult and assert, but you do not prove anything. This is your normal way of doing things. I have shown by the scriptures what holiness is and what kind of holiness Peter was speaking of. You just refuse to accept it. You say that the is done away with and void. Paul says the opposite. Here you go again.
Ray you are ignoring the scriptures about holiness as it is written. Peter talked about holiness as it was written. What was written?
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
What is Peter referring to? Where is it written? Here is one place where it is written:
Le 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ray simply does not want to do what is written. Why?
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
You want the law to be void. Paul explicitly says that is not.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ray wrote:
“God completely did away with the law by the sacrifice of Christ. This means that the law no longer is the established order of God through which he enforces his rule upon this earth.
This is what the scripture teaches.”
If the scripture teaches it, then why can’t you produce any passage of scripture that says so?
Messiah and Paul said otherwise…and their words are scripture. It must not be what the scripture teaches.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished (Strong’s #2673)
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away (Strong’s #2673) in Christ.
The same word is used in the above passages. “Make void” is the same word as “abolished” which is the same word as “done away.” Certainly, the thing that was abolished/done away with/made void is not the law. Something was abolished/made void/done away with, but it was not the law. What was abolished? The vail…not the law.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Strong’s #2647), I make myself a transgressor.
Whatever it was that Paul destroyed it was not the law, for Messiah says that He did not come to destroy it. If Messiah did not destroy it, Paul certainly could not.
The law is established by our faith, not destroyed/abolished. If Paul destroyed/abolished the law, his faith did not establish it. “Abolish”, “make void”, and “do away with” are synonyms. Neither Paul, Messiah or our faith dose these things to the law.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Strong’s #2476) the law.
Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue (Strong’s #2476) unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
The word “establish” and “continue” are the same word in the Greek in the above two passages. The law is made to continue by our faith. It is not voided or stopped. When something is continued it is not voided. When something is continued it is not voided.
Ray wrote:
“…It seems they simply have decided to ignore scripture and set up their own golden calf of religion of man, using and misusing scripture to do it.
They don’t seem to understand that the entire law was done away with, abolished by God, for the sake of the new, something that happened at the cross of Christ. It was put to an end in his body on the cross. (see Eph 2:15 KJV)”
Ray, I have just shown above the scriptures that you ignore. Is there a golden calf of religion somewhere in your heart? Let’s look at the passage you reference.
Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(We are created to walk in the works that YHWH laid out in previously in scripture. That scripture is what was called the law and the prophets. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim. 3:16-17)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(We used to be gentiles, aliens and strangers. If we have not been grafted into Israel, we still do not partake of the covenants, or commonwealth and are still without Messiah. The new covenant is only to Israel. Only be being joined to Israel do we have access to this covenant for the covenants belong to them. “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”-Ro 9:4 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”-Jer. 31:31 “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;”-Ro 11:17)
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(The word in the Greek that is translated “ordinances” is the term for a manmade law. It is not used to denote YHWH’s laws or statutes or ordinances. The Septuagint almost exclusively uses it to translate words that are in connection with writings and ordinances of men. There used to be a division between Jews and Gentiles. The commandments of YHWH did not produce this. The commandments of men did. There is nothing in YHWH’s law that sets up a wall of division between these two groups.
A gentile/stranger was always allowed to join with YHWH’s people according to the law and the prophets. Jewish oral law erected a wall of separation. Peter refers to it. “And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”-Ac 10:28 The law that Peter speaks of is not found anywhere in Torah. It was Jewish manmade law that prevented Jews from associating with Gentiles.
The “law contained in ordinances” is speaking of manmade laws. Messiah overruled the laws that caused the division. He stripped the Scribes and Pharisees of their authority, but He did not cause on jot of tittle to pass from His Father’s law. That cannot happen until heaven and earth pass away. “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”-Mt 5:18″
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(We are now fellowcitizens with Israel. Saints is used here and many other places to denote those that are holy to YHWH in keeping His commandments. It denotes Israel. Please note that the household of YHWH is built upon, not the apostles, but the “apostles and prophets.” The writings of both the law and the prophets and the apostles are the rules of the house. Messiah being the word of YHWH made flesh said, “…It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”-Lu 4:4 He did not say that we could ignore the previous words of YHWH.)
Do you have any answers to why the scriptures are apposed to your view yet?
I think that Ray thinks that he can eat anything…but not humble pie. He just cannot admit when he is wrong.
Sheila,
Only 33 more posts till 777…be ready 🙂
Legalists often condemn themselves in the very way they feel justified by their doctrine and practices.
Are you ever going to answer Ray? Or just continue to insult and accuse?
It is really easy Ray to just answer honestly instead of being coy and evasive. The problem is that you do not like the obvious answers that are damning to your beliefs. Just try these 5 easy things:
Ray wrote:
“Legalists always seem to be destitute of that which is agreeable to good Christians.”
People that always are calling other people names and insulting them are probably not the Biblical scholars or spiritual giants that they think they are.
How about trying to answer some simple questions instead of just trash talking?
Ray wrote:
“I believe the law was abolished as the scripture says, but that it’s not been destroyed in the sense that we may still read it and learn from it, something God preserved for us by his love and grace to us in Christ Jesus.”
You are playing semantic games. It is ludicrous to say it not being destroyed means that is is physically still here or that it exists for us to look at or that we can learn from it though it is abolished. Messiah and Paul both say that it is not abolished.
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. RSV
Ro 3:31 do we then by means of this faith abolish the law? no, indeed; we give the law a firmer footing. Weymouth
You still refuse to answer some very simple points. Why is that? What are you hiding? Why do you have not direct answer? Here is your chance to disprove me.
Ray wrote:
“No one can understand you. What you offer here is indigestible.”
You’re the only one that has said that Ray. Is it that no one can understand me, or is it that you refuse to try to understand the passages of scripture I quote? Is it because you only glance at my posts, instead of actually reading them? Shall we try one concept at a time? Ray see if you can understand this:
Point #1
In English, “abolish” and “destroy” and “make void” are basically synonyms as proven by these three translations of the very same Greek word.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish (Strong’s #2647) the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish (Strong’s #2647) them but to fulfil them. RSV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void (Strong’s #2647) the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. Darby
Point #2
Messiah did not come to destroy/abolish/make void the law. Paul destroyed something. Whatever Paul destroyed/abolished/maid void, it was not the law, because if Messiah didn’t destroy it, Paul would not and could not either.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Strong’s #2647), I make myself a transgressor.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil.
Point #3
Paul stopped keeping the traditions of Judiasm, He did not stop keeping YHWH’s law. Paul destroyed the religion of manmade commandments and salvation by works. He did not destroy or stop keeping YHWH’s law…he proved that he did not.
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Point #4
The law is not made void/abolished/destroyed/done away with by our faith. Paul says this very emphatically. Whatever has been done away with/made void/abolished/destroyed in Messiah, it is not YHWH’s law. The vail of manmade traditions and ordinances is what is done away with. These ordinances of man have blinded the Jews to Messiah. They keep them from doing YHWH’s commandments.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void (Strong’s #2673) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away (Strong’s #2673) in Christ.
Point #5
The law is established by our faith. “Established” is the same word as “continued” as is proven by the two passages below that use the same Greek word. Our faith does not destroy/make void/destroy the law…it causes YHWH’s law to continue.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Strong’s #2476) the law.
Ac 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue (Strong’s #2476) unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Ray, these are 5 easy things for you to answer directly. Take them one at a time and label them and try to show my error from the scripture. If you cannot do this, your stance is false. If you will not do this, you are refuted.
Have you ever heard of a Strong’s Concordance? Do you know how to look up words that are the same in Greek? Do you understand that my above posts show that according to the Greek you are making ridiculous statements?
The commandments contained in ordinances are manmade ordinances. That is what the word dogma “ordinances” means.
Destroying the law is the same as abolishing it or making it void.
Just take the points 1 through 5 and address each in logical and scriptural manner so that we can all see if you are correct. If you won’t, you have conceded the debate.
How long will you shirk?
Ray,
How about one at a time.
Just show how this is not true:
Point #1
In English, “abolish” and “destroy” and “make void” are basically synonyms as proven by these three translations of the very same Greek word.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Strong’s #2647) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. KJV
Mt 5:17 “think not that I have come to abolish (Strong’s #2647) the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish (Strong’s #2647) them but to fulfil them. RSV
Mt 5:17 think not that I am come to make void (Strong’s #2647) the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void (Strong’s #2647), but to fulfil. Darby
Why do you THINK that Messiah abolished the law when He said to never THINK such a thing?
Ray,
It is not a hard question to answer. It is only hard for you to answer because it proves you wrong.
Ray,
Can you refrain from insult and just answer?