You’ve Got Questions, We’ve Got Answers – and a Special Interview with Jason and David Benham

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Dr. Brown speaks with Jason and David Benham in the aftermath of their show being dropped by HGTV because of their Christian values and then takes your calls and answers your e-questions. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: When the dust settles and the lies have been exposed, it is truth that will be standing.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The word of God is a tree of life. Let us put our roots down deep into that tree of life, and we will grow and thrive.

SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY! 
This week, we’re offering two important resources from Dr. Brown, his brand new book, Can You Be Gay and Christian?, and his DVD debate with gay activist (and professing born-again Christian) Harry Knox. You can get both of these key resources for the super low price of just $25! Postage Paid! That’s a $15 savings!
Order Online!

Other Resources:

In and Out of Calvinism

Dr. Brown Interviews One of the “Preachers from L.A.” and a Gay Activist from Charlotte

A Christian Musician Fired By a Christian Friend for His Moral Stand and Christian Families Fight Back in Philly

76 Comments
  1. Re: Benham’s statistics…

    America is split down the middle on abortion. While slightly over half oppose it, slightly over half don’t want Roe v Wade overturned.

    So I think there must be a significant segment of churchgoers who identify as Christian that don’t want to see abortion become illegal again. They may individually oppose it but don’t want to legislate their morality.

    There’s a strong libertarian “live and let live” spirit in this nation that’s taking it down. It’s rampant in the denominational churches too. If 78% of Americans really are disciples of Jesus then our moral landscape would look much different.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/160058/majority-americans-support-roe-wade-decision.aspx

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx#1

  2. >> If 78% of Americans really are disciples of Jesus then our moral landscape would look much different.

    Or….

    Since Jesus never preached against abortion, I’ll guess that a certain percentage of Christians read their bibles more carefully than others, not confusing discipleship with partisan politics.

  3. I have a question for Dr. Brown and whoever wants to answer, besides Bo and Adam. What do you think about Russell Moore’s comments, something to the effect that if all he knew about Christianity was what he heard on Christian talk radio, he would hate Christianity? What he is talking about is the stark difference between the average nice Christian you meet all the time as opposed to the Christians who host shows on Christian radio and the mostly mean-spirited people who call these shows.

  4. VaIn,

    Too bad you never have any facts or solid logic to defend your rhetoric against Sheila, Adam and I. That is the real reason that you do not want Adam or I to answer. Why don’t you answer Sheila’s posts? You bragged about how easy it would be to show your case, but your silence declares your bankrupt evidence.

    VaIn wrote:
    “I’m right here and I will continue to destroy every argument that comes my way. So bring ‘em on if you dare.”

    VaIn wrote:
    ““…but there’s a clip with Ravi Zacarias in it where he expounds on the reality of moral absolutes…”

    Oh, I absolutely LOVE knocking down this stupid argument. Name something that is always wrong.”

    Sheila responded:
    “Let’s just start with rape, Van. It’s always wrong!”

    And you VaIn, did not show her how rape is not always wrong. You loose once again.

    Who lied? Who is the real quote miner? The following has been posted time after time and Van will still not either back up his assertion and rhetoric or admit his lie.

    Van,

    When are you going to stop dodging and man up and answer the charge that you lied and misrepresented Schweitzer? In case you and others have almost forgotten, here is a gentle reminder of the challenge:

    Why should anyone listen to you when you have been proven wrong and won’t admit it? Why should we listen to a troll?

    “troll
    One who posts a deliberately provocative message…with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    When are you going to answer the charge that you took Scweitzer out of context? Did you do it intentionally or were you duped by someone and then just regurgitate the lie? At least admit that you were wrong, even if you won’t tell us your motive. Don’t dodge or ignore this if you are an honest man. To refresh you memory, here is the challenge:

    Below is one of many examples of Van’s deception technique. He has been asked repeatedly to either admit that he has posted false testimony or to produce verification of his assertion. After being called on the carpet, he conveniently ignores all rebuttals and continues to regurgitate deception mixed with a huge amount of rhetoric, vitriol and insult. He is not to be taken seriously as scholar or a commentator. He is a troll, and nothing more.

    Van wrote:
    “’There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus. The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.’ – Albert Scweitzer (1875-1965)

    You just accused Albert Schweitzer of being classless, unqualified, and simple minded. Par for the course for people who have no respect for intelligence and education.

    Many scholars have tried to find evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus really existed. They came up with nothing, absolutely nothing as Dr. Schweitzer said.

    You people have bought into all the lies of religion and then you repeat these lies without any hint of a conscience. Calling me a liar when all I do is speak the truth just shows how backward your evil religion really is.”

    Sheila responded:
    “Well, it’s a classic move by you to rip a quotation out of context. Who is it you’re listening to? It makes no sense for you to drop what you think is a bombshell when all you’ve done now is make yourself look more foolish because you never considered that Google just might have Schweitzer’s book on line.

    Anyone who cares to can read further down the chapter and see that Schweitzer was referring to the historic Jesus as He was portrayed by the modern theological historians of his own time. His thought was that “That” Jesus never existed… His point was that we end up molding Him according to our modern way of thinking categorically. We essentially risk minimizing the astonishing profundity of His teachings.

    This link begins with the quote you gave us and then explains exactly what Schweitzer was getting at. The man made the cross he wanted on his own grave, for Pete’s sake.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=uzRXxvPsylkC&pg=PA478#v=onepage&q&f=false

    To date, Van still ignores the proof of his irrelevancy. He continues to persecute in the only way he as power to do. That power, in this instance, being the grace of Dr. Brown. Be sure to thank YHWH that Van is not in any governmental position where his bigotry and prejudice can do more harm.

    2 Timothy 3
    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  5. Greg wrote:
    “Since Jesus never preached against abortion, I’ll guess that a certain percentage of Christians read their bibles more carefully than others, not confusing discipleship with partisan politics.”

    How about answering some simple questions about what the Bible does state instead producing more rhetoric Greg? Here you go Greg…another chance to prove that you are intellectually honest.

    Luke 1
    38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
    39 ¶ And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
    40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
    41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
    42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
    43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
    44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

    I wrote:
    “…How close to conception was Mary when she was prophesied over by Elisabeth who called her a mother and the child in her womb master?…Do you think that the Bible says that Elisabeth knew by revelation from the Holy Spirit that Mary was pregnant with Y’shua?…Was it by the Holy Spirit that he was filled with while in the womb that John the Baptist knew?

    You wrote:
    “…I can’t answer engage in your “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” questions.”

    The reason you did not answer was not because my questions were frivolous, but because you did not want to admit that the Bible is against your pro-choice agenda. Your argumentation style is not to find out the truth, but to ignore it. But now you have another chance to answer honestly. What great deal for you Greg. You can show everyone that you actually can read the Bible and understand the implications instead of holding to the liberal political agenda. Here is your chance.

  6. VaIn,

    You ought to be ashamed to ever post on this site again. Here are a few of your shameful statements in the past couple of months:

    Van wrote:
    “By the way, all of these comments about me not knowing this or that are false. I know a lot more about the Bible than any believer does.”

    Van Wrote:
    “We atheists are sick of having to explain the difference between right and wrong and lies and truth to you believers.”

    Van wrote:
    “I am a better person with higher moral and ethical standards than any Christian alive or who has ever lived.”

    Van wrote:
    “I don’t have a god and I never said I had no higher concern than myself.”

    Van wrote:
    “My ways are much higher than God’s. I am not a murderer. Christians worship a murderer and do it only because they are afraid of this murderer. Well I’m not afraid.”

    Van wrote:
    “We have reached the point where no rational person believes Jesus really existed.”

    Van wrote:
    “Here’s truth about same sex attraction you won’t hear Dr. Brown talk about. There are millions of American Christian men cheating on their wives with other men. Probably many who frequent this blog, perhaps even some working with this ministry. Right Fellas? You know who you are and we don’t but we know you’re out there, on the down low.”

    Van wrote:
    “I would just like to say that the gospel itself is the biggest lie ever told on this planet. When you repeat lies that makes you a liar.”

    And you mix all this hogwash with insults and adolescent boasting. And you do not answer what you say you will. Why should anyone answer your foolish leading questions? You deserve only ridicule.

  7. Bo,

    The fact that you have to cut-and-paste that many tangential verses proves my point.

  8. Were the Benham’s fired for helping orphans and feeding the poor?

    If so, then, yes, they were fired for being good Christians.

    More likely, they were fired because their right wing politics was alienating the audience.

  9. Unless you gusy can find a verse where Jesus says, “abortion is murder,” “fetuses are unborn babies,” or “life begins at conception,” then this is an issue where Christians can differ in good conscience.

  10. Greg,

    If they are tangential, why can you not bring yourself to answer those simple questions? Very telling, I would say.

    They are directly related to when life begins. Was the Holy Spirit wrong to inspire Elisabeth to call Mary a mother at just a few days gestation? If she was already a mother then Messiah was already a baby, and to abort Him would be murder. You just do not want to admit it. We all see right through your political agenda, for it is not a Christian agenda or in line with scripture.

    Now come on! Be a sweetie and answer those simple questions.

  11. Greg,

    You wrote:
    “Unless you gusy can find a verse where Jesus says, “abortion is murder,” “fetuses are unborn babies,” or “life begins at conception,” then this is an issue where Christians can differ in good conscience.”

    If there was a direct verse that said this, you would do the same thing that you do with direct verses about homosexuality. You would redefine the words or say that they had a different kind of abortion back then that was not the same as our kind. That is exactly what you would do. You have done it over and over with the verses that condemn homosex. Answer the simple questions about Luke 1 if you have any intellectually honest bone in your body.

  12. That should have said: Answer the simple questions about Luke 1 if you have any intellectually honest bones in your body.

  13. Next, Greg will either stop posting because he does not have time or because he wants to only post on the newest threads starting next week. Or he will respond with rhetoric. What he will not do is answer the simple questions about scripture. But if he does answer at all, it will be quite vague or he will have all kinds of meaningless reasons why the people of those days didn’t know about sperm and eggs and conception. He will never admit that the scripture was verbally inspired by YHWH or that YHWH could reveal the truth about when life begins to those Iron or Bronze age people.

  14. Bo,

    It’s late and I’m tired and I can’t think of the law in Torah that states something like, if a woman is struck so that she loses her child, isn’t it considered murder? Admittedly I’m not clear on it right now and I can’t recall how it’s worded so I can look it up. Do you know what I’m referring to?

    You know, that’s a problem for the courts, because how can you say it’s not a child in the case of abortion but yet if someone kills a mother who is carrying a child in the womb they’re charged with double murder. Either the fetus is a person or it’s not.

  15. Ex 21: 22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

    God is saying there is “life” in the womb and it is therefore a murder charge.

  16. Van comment-
    I have a question for Dr. Brown and whoever wants to answer, besides Bo and Adam. What do you think about Russell Moore’s comments, something to the effect that if all he knew about Christianity was what he heard on Christian talk radio, he would hate Christianity? What he is talking about is the stark difference between the average nice Christian you meet all the time as opposed to the Christians who host shows on Christian radio and the mostly mean-spirited people who call these shows.

    Vain you decide what to take into your heart. You decide what you experience and who controls your thoughts. You decide who you magnify, who you praise, who you bless, who you exalt, who you glorify and laud. Vain you are here for a reason…I decide to pray for you, I decide to learn and bless and praise my creator. Bo and Adam will take time to give you very detailed answers to your questions, they will be patient and challenge you like you have never been challenged. You will decide to turn your heart either for or against… It’s on you my friend . It is destroying you.. We need to take the I out of ourselves, VaIn will you take out the I? Will you answer the tough questions and exalt the almighty, and lower the VaIn to the dust and worship him? You are the only one who has this chance reading this. You are the only one who can hang on to the hate inside you, the lies that reveal you. Not us, we can only challenge and make you a man of God comes from asking him! I pray that you become Van and a man of God- But if you do not then it is in vain.

  17. Those who go against the truth are but little men who seek to build their own kingdom, and it’s nothing. Let’s seek to build God’s kingdom which is true and enduring.

  18. Jon,
    People have been praying I would believe in God and it hasn’t happened and it isn’t going to. More proof nothing fails like prayer. See, I don’t believe in omniscience, ESP or mind-reading. I don’t think it’s possible. I don’t believe in omnipresence or omnipotence either. I don’t believe in immortality. I think all those are human concepts and they are imaginary. I see no evidence that they exist or that they even could exist. Therefore I don’t see how God could exist. Also I do not believe that there was ever a point in the past when there was just nothing. Like the scientists I believe something, some form of matter and energy has always existed. So God isn’t necessary to explain where the universe came from.
    I need evidence, not arguments, if I’m going to believe something. Apparently you do not.

  19. Van, why do you think water takes as long as it does to heat up? If it heated up real quick, wouldn’t coffee also get cold real fast?

    Do you think people simply evolved into drinking coffee at a certain speed, or that water just happened to “know” how fast it would take people to enjoy a cup of coffee without rushing?

    Seems to me you like to complain or find fault with anything, even prayer. Have you fervently tried it? Did you do it through faith in God?

    Yet, you seem to know everything.

    Why should you seek heaven anyway, seeing how you want to complain about everything, as if nothing is good enough for you? Would you complain if you were in heaven?

    Will you be happier in hell?

  20. Faith is a Christian’s evidence and God supplies all they need, according to all that he reveals.

  21. Bo,

    You are demanding that I use the bible in a way that I feel is disrespectful to scripture.

    You have an agenda which you are inserting into the bible in passages I can’t imagine any legitimate bible scholar would agree is the intended message. Either the human writers or the Holy Spirits.

    Your technique is nothing new… It’s called “proof texting” and has led to some of the church’s worst theology. (Using the curse of Ham to defend slavery, for example.)

    I love the bible too much to do that.

    Find me a passage where the intended meaning is to ban abortion — then we can continue this debate. (or says that life begins at conception or any of your other claims.)

    Without clarity of scripture, I will continue to insist that abortion is an issue where Christians of good conscience can differ.

    – – – – –

    TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR:

    I believe the bible is the inspired “breath” of God, as 2 Timothy says.

    I’m not sure what you mean by _verbally_ inspired. Is this another personal agenda you force into scripture?

    If you are referring the bible’s origins in verbal (aka oral) tradition, then I might agree with you. (wouldn’t that be refreshing!)

  22. Sheila

    >>Ex 21: 22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    If this is your only verse to prove that abortion is “murder” than you need to find another. Verses like this are why I say that the bible is ambiguous on abortion.

    Nobody can seem to agree if “come out” means miscarriage or premature birth. Bibles translate it both ways.

    Obviously, if it means “miscarriage” then the penalty is a fine, not the penalty for murder. It’s viewed as a property fine.

    If the meaning is “premature birth” with no harm to mother or baby, one has to wonder why there is a fine at all. It’s hard to imagine that a smallish, healthy baby could merit a fine but I suppose it’s possible.

    I respect your right to an opinion on this passage, especially if you are a Hebrew scholar, but I would oppose you using the power of government to enforce your opinion on women and their doctors who disagree with you.

  23. Bo,

    >> What he will not do is answer the simple questions about scripture.

    Bo, you need to search in your heart and ask yourself if you are being an honest person when you make such claims.

    I have responded to you more than almost anyone else here. I have directly addressed scripture.

    If you said, “We both love the bible but Greg has a different hermeneutic than I do” — that would be a truthful claim.

  24. Van said,

    >> I need evidence, not arguments, if I’m going to believe something.

    There is different types of evidence — scientific, historical and testimony. (to name three common ones)

    Will you take all kinds of evidence?

    Or are you so fundamentalist in your thinking, you will take only one?

  25. I want to take a moment and explain (again) my view on abortion.

    I am not pro-abortion or part of the “pro-abortion agenda” as people accuse me here.

    I have never had any personal role in this issue. I have only one sex partner, my wife, and we were careful and successful in family planning.

    As responsible couples do, we talked about this — if we did have an unintentional pregnancy, we would have carried it to term. This was, in part, because of our personal position on the “pro-life” issue.

    As an evangelical, bible believing Christian I carefully studied the bible and found the same verses you guys do.

    Clearly, the bible assumes that life starts before birth? But when? At conception? Before conception? At the first breath?

    The bible is not clear on this point — AND IT IS THE LINCHPIN OF THE ABORTION DEBATE.

    And science is not much clearer. Doctors debate abortion as much as we Christians do.

    So, my wife and I made our moral decision — no abortion.

    But, I refuse to support using the brutal power of government to enforce our moral decision on all couples.

    Instead, I trust the Holy Spirit, women and doctors to decide this very hard choice for themselves.

  26. Argument from a Queer thing happened to America –
    Quote ” What is remarkable is that when similar research on the possible biological causes of homosexuality has indicated that there could be in utero developments that contributed to one’s homosexual orientation,24 that is not viewed as a potential solution to a problem, since homosexuality is something to be celebrated and nurtured, not pitied or rejected. As for speaking of a cure for homosexuality, that is absolutely forbidden, even if it could be traced back to developmental abnormalities in the womb. After all, since homosexuality is deemed to be positive, nothing in utero went wrong.”

    Does not this make a case using this argument that we should not be aborting something in utero for it is a creation of God. Since the queer lobby treats homosexuality as a creation- why then destroy what is created? Isn’t this lobby beholden to a double standard of promoting queer, and promoting choice (abortion.) Again we let the left have both sides of the argument every time. While we argue for what is truth, they take both directions and make society into living with this both ways. Again the secular wins every time. ( I do not believe that they will ultimately win>) but they are running circles around us now.

  27. Greg,

    I don’t know what’s not clear about it as it states:

    “But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life”

    Obviously they’re talking about the death of the child she’s carrying. “If” the child is born whole, you’re fined according to the judges decree. “If” the child dies, you die. It seems clear to me. If the child is born deformed, you pay the monetary fine the judges deem reasonable. That’s what’s meant by an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, etc., etc.. You’re paying retribution either way; it just so happens one way may be with your life.

    You can’t stretch the meaning of “come out” and use it to cover life or death. Come out means just that. It all hinges on whether they “come out” dead or alive!

  28. Question – Is the left consistent by promoting choice ? or is there an inconsistency here by protecting what is in utero as a “creation” and should be protected and the homosexual is born that way?

  29. Van—“Also I do not believe that there was ever a point in the past when there was just nothing. Like the scientists I believe something, some form of matter and energy has always existed. So God isn’t necessary to explain where the universe came from.
    “I need evidence, not arguments, if I’m going to believe something.”

    In believing there was never a time when there was nothing, you go against Stephen Hawkings who believes the universe “can and will create itself from ‘nothing.'” Another thing I don’t understand is that some atheists have no problem believing in the eternal existence of matter and energy but they have a real problem believing in an eternal creator. Are you saying that matter and energy created everything? Matter and energy as a creative force in the universe must have created flowers and trees and mammals and reptiles and, let’s not forget, the initial primordial slime that you believe we evolved from. How did those two elements do all that creating? Where did the first matter come from? How did the trees evolve and from what? How did a plant know to produce seed–why is there reproduction at all? That makes no sense to me. Each organism should be self sufficient if your theory is true. And if matter is eternal, that matter is known as God. If energy is eternal, that energy is the spoken word of God. Matter is. Energy is. God is. No problem. 🙂

  30. Sheila,
    Watch the Sean Carroll – William Craig debate. The cosmologist completely annihilated every theistic argument Craig made which is why Craig’s followers didn’t want anybody to see the debate and took it down. But Sean Carroll has put it back up for all to see, including you. Craig kept whining, “The universe just must have had a beginning.” Carroll just asked him how he knew that. Of course Craig had no answer because we know matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed and has always existed in some form.

    When Hawking ans other scientists talk about nothing they are talking to lay people about what’s inside a shoe box. There are still vacuum fluctuations where there is nothing else.

    Science is fascinating and religion is boring, stupid and absolutely false. As son as you begin to learn about reality, the way things really are, your religion will make no sense to you and you’ll clearly see through all the lies of Christianity just like I can and just about EVERYBODY under the age of 21 can. You can always join the good guys and I promise you’ll be a lot happier.

  31. Did you know for example that time, like mathematics is a human invention? Time is not linear as most believe and in fact it doesn’t exist at all. Wrap your mind around that for a while. Pick up a science book, put down the fairy tales and expand your mind. Let it out of that prison and free it to go wherever it will.

  32. VaIn, Again your choice, you sit there and throw things that you can not lift over your head.

    VaIn, Who would I join if I wanted to join the good guys?

    How do you know anything about my happiness and how to have more?

    Does your religion make any sense?

    You can sit and say that the sun does not exist, that starts are an illusion. It does not matter what a silly boy says, it only matters what you can do to make a solid point. I have not seen a solid point ever offered by you, you just throw it all out.

  33. Everything I say is true. Everything you believe is untrue. I have science to support what I believe and you have nothing but your own fear based superstitions to support what you have been trained by other people to believe. I’d say you lose buddy.

  34. “VaIn, Who would I join if I wanted to join the good guys?”

    > Why atheists of course. There’s nothing to fear man. There is no God and no afterlife. That’s fact Jack.

  35. Van you sit there on the hottest day of the year in late July and think it is hot because of hydro carbons. I would say Van you think you are right, and I would say I know the true source of the heat!
    Look outside it is the SUN! But your a science guy, and have a degree in VaIn.

  36. Van, in response to your last post, Ha! Ha! Ha!, HA! HA! HA!….Will you say to me that though I laugh now, one day …..?

    Oh, for this…One day I’m really going to get it huh?, I mean really, really, going to get it huh?

    Ha! Ha!….

  37. Greg,

    As predicted, you did not answer those simple questions. It is not difficult to just read the verses and to make obvious conclusions about what happened in a certain time-frame and what was said. What can be gleaned from what was said shows us part of the Biblical worldview…or at least a Holy view. Words have meanings. The author used words given by the Holy Spirit to tell us something. If we ignore the details in those sentences, we will not get the real big picture either. We may get a picture that is clouded with human reasoning and ambitions, but the whole picture is contained in the details of the words penned and their definitions.

    You also did not respond to what would happen if there was a few verses that said abortion is murder. I made the case that you would treat such verses as you do the ones that say that homosex is sin. You would just invent definitions or find a liberal scholar to do it for you. You would just justify abortion on the grounds that people didn’t do the kind of abortion that we do so ours is not a sin. That is what you do with the straight forward verses about homosexuality. What would keep you for doing the same with abortion verses?

    You actually half did that with Sheila’s comment. You think that the passage could be translated either way. So if it is possible that the passage could be translated to mean that the fruit in the woman’s womb was a child, shouldn’t you think that we should ere on the side of protection of life instead of erring on the side of choice?

    If there is a possibility that human life exists from conception, then how can it be a righteous or responsible option to terminate that life. Is it responsible behavior to just start shooting at an old cabin in the woods if we have not checked to see if there are any children hiding or playing inside? No! When we do not know for sure that there is no life inside, we should not start shooting or suctioning. It is criminal negligence at best. Manslaughter or premeditated murder more likely.

    Here are some things that we can know for sure from the Biblical view:

    It is a child when it is near to be delivered.(8 1/2-9 months)

    1Sa 4:19 And his daughter in law, Phinehas’ wife, was with child, near to be delivered: and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her.

    Lu 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

    It is a child before it can cry.(7 months)

    Isa 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.

    It is a child by six months.

    Lu 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
    25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.
    26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth…
    44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

    It is a child by the time that the mother feels movement.(4-5 months)

    Ge 25: 21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
    22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
    23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Ro 9: 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    It is a child when it is 6-8 inches long. (4 months)

    La 2:20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord?

    It is a child by three months.

    Ge 38:24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

    Once there are bones growing, it is a child. (Two months)

    Ec 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

    When it didn’t have any members. (One month)

    Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

    It is a child when the woman realizes she has missed her period. (2 weeks)

    2 Sa 11:5 And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child.

    Ge 16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes…
    11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

    It is a child when by the time it is a week old.

    Lu 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
    39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda…
    42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
    43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    It is a child when it is conceived.

    Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

    Ju 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    When did Messiah take on the seed of Abraham? At conception…that is when seed is conceived:

    Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived

    Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    In the following passage, at birth, in the womb and from conception are all in reference to the existence of Ephraim.

    Ho 9:11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

    Conclusion. The people of the Bible, the prophets that spoke for YHWH and YHWH veiw us to be alive humans from conception on.

    More tomorrow:

  38. Van your right!

    I hate religion where we live some dogmatic life and give up our freedom for some pie in the sky. It should be a search for wholeness, a path to holiness. the most holy day of the week is sh abbot. You need to be whole physically and spiritually and both need each other. Get rid of God – It is about Hashem that will empower your experience and not the fanaticism that you are used to. If you do not want to be religious – Great! I hate religion, some dogmatic thinking to not be the total van- A torah life in messiah will unleash you to be the total you, you can fall in Love with God today. The modern thought of religion is offensive, your freedom is being compromised to not be your essential self. The spirit of God must fill you to take your sack of dust to be what you have been created for.

    What is your baggage against your concept of God? you hate your concept, your concept is a fairy tale. You should hate that concept. Look carefully at that baggage and contemplate that. I think personally what you hate is the message here is that your homosexual lifestyle is being condemned. Van, it is not. God loves you! You have to come to terms with the craving that you have and take that to Hashem. You can hate hearing or talking about your baggage- sometimes it is hard for me too. We all want to find wholeness and think that we know how to fill that with money, relationships, but it is not going to make us whole. We need to take the spiritual and the physical and bring them in one, under messiah. You can cover your eyes, your ears, your mouth can spew vile back to me. Van you must look at the baggage that you have it is not going to go on the boat, the boat will sink with you and your bags will go to the bottom.

  39. Greg,

    It is tomorrow.

    I know this probably won’t help because you are committed to your position no matter what the Bible says, but for the sake of those that might want to know…

    Ge 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
    5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
    6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    Le 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

    By three weeks after conception the child has blood and a heart to pump it. The only question would be, “Is there life in the blood at this point?” We know that YHWH breathed the breath of life into Adam. There is no record that He did that to anyone else. It would seem that the breath of life is passed down to succeeding generations in the womb. The sperm carry this life as they swim toward the egg cell and immediately upon fertilization we see that that life is transmitted.

    Ac 17: 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation…
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    He made of one blood all nations. (No, not all creatures as evolution teaches.) He gives life and breath…two separate things. The term “breath of life” is not simply breath. We are alive and that is why we breathe. We live for a short while after we stop breathing. Our breath maintains our life. The life that resides in our blood is destroyed if we stop breathing long enough. All humans have come from one blood…Adam’s. Life was inserted at that point and continues unbroken till now through Adam’s blood line.

    To be fair, shouldn’t it be that we are presumed alive until proven dead. Would you want someone to find you in a pool of blood or motionless on the floor and presume you were dead? Or would you rather they check for a pulse or even try CPR? Would you rather they call the emergency room or the mortuary? In the womb, since whatever is in there is growing, shouldn’t we also presume it to be a human life until proven dead?

    So Greg, in your attempt to help women take charge of their lives, you want to give them the right to shed innocent blood for the sake of convenience. You care in a way that causes murder. You would rather a woman be temporarily relieved of responsibility instead of helping her for eternity. You think that YHWH does not give us any guidelines in His word that show us when life begins. You are woefully ignorant…maybe willfully ignorant. I proclaim that you worship ignorantly and that you are causing stumbling blocks to be cast before the blind and that you are offending little ones. Maybe YHWH has winked at your ignorance for a while, but it is time to repent. The Bible is clear. From conception on, it is a child. It is not just the view of Iron and Bronze age people, it is YHWH’s view. It is time that you wake up…before it is too late.

    Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    Lu 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

    Mat 13: 40 Just as the wild wheat plants are gathered and burned up, so it will be at the close of the age.
    41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all those who cause wrongdoing, and the wrongdoers,
    42 and will throw them into the furnace of torturing punishment; there they will wail and grind their teeth.
    43 Then the upright will shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him who has ears listen! (Williams)

    Mat 13:40 Therefore just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
    41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.
    42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen! (HSCB)

    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
    42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear. (ERV)

    Maybe you can show that different translators have different opinions about Exodus 21:22, but they all say the same thing concerning Matthew 13.

    It is time to open your ears and wake up and repent.

  40. Greg, I do not think Bo can be labeled as just an evangelical. So when you look to comment back to Bo do not use that as a defense. Bo’s perspective can not be that easily labeled. Sincerely you do really need to come to terms with several issues if you are seriously thinking about walking in the ways of Yhwh. I do think you are here to grow, your serious, misinformed on a few issues but Bo will assist.

  41. Jon,

    Thanks for the good press. But please be a YHWH fan and not fan of me.

    You wrote:
    ” Bo’s perspective can not be that easily labeled.”

    Somebody finally noticed 🙂

    I am sort of a cross between John the Baptist, Ishmael and Paul. Lots of words and long arguments like Paul. Same old message like John. (A voice crying on a website make your paths straight.) And everybody’s hand against me and mine against everybody’s. (Hopefully not too much of a wild ass.) I just want to be a man that takes every word of scripture to heart and attempts to put it all into practice…not to gain salvation, but out of gratitude for being saved. Hopefully I am one that keeps YHWH’s commandments and the faith of Y’shua instead of only having one or the other and am walking on the age old path to the tree of life.

    Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

    Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Shalom

  42. Bo, I’m just curious.

    Do you ever try to empathize with the particular situation at hand and the difficulties (moral or otherwise) that might arise from it, or do you simply take a black and white view on matters based on Bible passages? In the same vein, do you think that certain situations affect the morality or ethics of a certain act (ie. situational ethics)?

    For example, concerning abortion, would the fact that a pregnancy resulting from rape change the ethics of having an abortion or is the act still the same in your eyes regardless; the act being considered murder, comparable to any other murderous act (like the murder of a young child on the way home from school).

    I would be interested in your view on the matter. You quote a lot of scripture (which I’m not saying is a bad thing) which tends to give off the impression that you only consider these moral issues from a purely legalistic, scriptural manner rather than also considering them in light of the complex, real world experiences they often represent.

    Shalom

  43. James,

    I am about ready for bed. Are you the same James with which I have discussed homosexuality in the past? Whether or not, do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of YHWH?

    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Shalom and lila tov

  44. Hi Bo,

    Yes, I’m the James (the gay one) who had prior conversations with you on homosexuality.

    On Biblical inspiration, I do accept it, but to a limited degree. I’m not of the view that every word of the Bible is inerrant, if that answers your question.

    If you have to go to bed right now, that’s quite all right. I’ll happily await your response later whenever you’re ready. I have to go to work soon anyways.

    Have a good night.

    Shalom

  45. James, if you are practicing homosexuality, recognize it as sin before God, repent, and claim the blood of Christ as your covering, and forgiveness by him as part of your deliverance.

    Get out like Lot got out of Sodom, and don’t look back. Get yourself free.

    And if by chance you suffer any results of your past sins, and don’t feel whole, healed or delivered, remember how Moses himself was not allowed into the promised land, but died on the other side.

    Then trust, as we all do, that Moses entered heaven, and he is there with all the saints of God.

    Remember what the book of Hebrews says about him.

    Live the rest of your days new in Christ. Be saved in Jesus’ name.

  46. jon,

    I couldn’t quite tell if your post was a backhanded complicment or insult!

    I don’t know what Bo self-identifies as but I have encountered man people who are a lot like him. You could argue that he is not the typical Evangelical or conservative Christian but his type are not rare.

    You wrote:

    >> Sincerely you do really need to come to terms with several issues if you are seriously thinking about walking in the ways of Yhwh.

    And maybe you need to accept that there can be honest diversity of opinion in the body of Christ and that it honors the Lord to not be so judgmental of those who disagree with you!

  47. Greg said “Unless you gusy can find a verse where Jesus says, “abortion is murder,” “fetuses are unborn babies,” or “life begins at conception,” then this is an issue where Christians can differ in good conscience.”

    That is total nonsense. You are the one who has the burden to prove that unborn children are not worthy of the same rights as others. This is not something that Christians can disagree about anymore that we can disagree about killing some other group of people.

  48. James,

    Bo asked you if the bible was the “inspired word” of God and you answered “I’m not of the view that every word of the Bible is inerrant.”

    Those are distinctly different claims of bible.

    “Inspired” is the bible’s own claim for itself while “inerrant” comes more from Chicago than Jerusalem.

    I can’t think of a single verse that claims inerrancy the bible. (although I expect Bo will start furiously cut-and-pasting semi-random bible verses on the subject.)

    I, myself, tend to use the words “inspired,” “authoritative” or just simply “true” to describe how I use he bible in my life.

    As soon as one starts demanding that the bible is absolutely inerrant, it triggers arguments that don’t honor Jesus, IMHO. For example, is the mustard seed really the smallest? Do bunnies really have cuds? or bickering over the gestation time-lines of biblical characters to prove a point that the bible never intended.

    By the way, you are brave to come here as a gay man! I get condemned to hell for just taking communion with guys like you!

    Dr. Brown once called me “anti-Jesus” because I differed with his opinion on so-called “reparative therapy”!

    Anyway, I’d love to hear your spiritual story.

    But only share it, if you are willing to cast pearls before swine. Some people will mock you if you claim the grace of God in your life.

  49. Doug,

    >> That is total nonsense. You are the one who has the burden to prove that unborn children are not worthy of the same rights as others.

    Since the bible is unclear on the issue, the Church is divided, science can’t come to a consensus and the Supreme court ruled it legal — it takes the burden off me, at least a little, don’t you think?

    BTW — have you heard that the term “unborn children” is a deliberate political twisting of language? When the accurate and accepted word “fetus” didn’t do well in focus groups, activists issued memos to use the term “unborn baby.” (at least as I’ve heard the story)

    Anyway, before you can use all the verses in the bible about murder to apply to a fetus, you have to make a scientific or biblical case for when life begins. And if you are going to use the brutal power of government to enforce your opinion, your case needs to be air-tight.

    So far, nobody has done that… which is why this issue has our society, churches and families divided.

    If you have a bible verse teaching (clearly! Without twisting scripture!) that life begins at conception, feel free to post it.

    Verses on murders or animated fetuses don’t meed the burdon of proof — at least not enough to send women to jail for murder.

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