An Interview with Apologist Greg Koukl and a Conversation about Racism and the NBA

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Dr. Brown interviews well-known apologist Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason and then takes your calls on the NBA’s treatment of Clippers owner Donald Sterling, banned for life and fined $2.5 million for his racist comments. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Yes, there are many mysteries in the Faith, but without a doubt our Faith is reasonable, upright, and sound!

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As we discuss issues of racism in the NBA, let us be determined to have more light than heat and let us be constructive in our interaction!

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Other Resources:

Will EPSN Reporter Become a Media Martyr for Sharing His Christian Beliefs?

Dr. Brown Interviews Dr. William Lane Craig and Takes Your Apologetics Questions

Forgiveness and Restitution (and the Korean rapper Psy); and Who Says the World is Supposed to Like Us?

82 Comments
  1. This should make everyone wonder what happened to the concept of free speech. What kind of a country do we live in where a man can lose his business just for saying something stupid? The NBA commissioner Adam Silver obviously hasn’t read the U.S Constitution or even the NBA Constitution which states that the only way an owner can be ousted is for financial difficulties. Silver has overstepped his authority and this will be shown in a court of law. Donald Sterling absolutely loves lawsuits and he’s going to have a good one here. If this tape is the only evidence the NBA has they are going to lose because it won’t be admissible as evidence in court. And Sterling will counter with charges against the NBA that his right to free speech has been violated and this will likely bring the entire league to its knees. I know Silver is new on the job and wants to make a big splash and a name for himself. He’s going to get those things by the end of this story but it won’t be the ones he wants.

    Sterling might be a despicable person but I happen to be involved in the sports world and know that he isn’t any worse than his players and looks like a paragon of virtue compared to most of them. I am not defending this guy. He is more than capable of doing that all by himself.

    Unlike Dr. Brown, Greg Koukl does not let critics who make solid arguments post on his blog.
    He knows very well that none of his arguments stand up to scrutiny. Dr. Brown on the other hand, is blissfully unaware of this fact

  2. Van,

    This post is not to agree with or disagree with your post above. It is to help new readers understand who your are and why you post. It is time for you to prove any shred of intellectual honesty that you might happen to possess.

    Why should anyone listen to you when you have been proven wrong and won’t admit it? You discredit yourself over and over with insulting, arrogant, and bigoted language. You just can’t resist starting a fight and you refuse to answer valid challenges to your unfounded and deceitful assertions. Why should we listen to a troll?

    “troll
    One who posts a deliberately provocative message…with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    You have been confronted with this over and over:

    When are you going to answer the charge that you took Scweitzer out of context? Did you do it intentionally or were you duped by someone and then just regurgitate the lie? At least admit that you were wrong, even if you won’t tell us your motive. Don’t dodge or ignore this if you are an honest man. To refresh you memory, here is the challenge:

    Below is one of many examples of Van’s deception technique. He has been asked repeatedly to either admit that he has posted false testimony or to produce verification of his assertion. After being called on the carpet, he conveniently ignores all rebuttals and continues to regurgitate deception mixed with a huge amount of rhetoric, vitriol and insult. He is not to be taken seriously as scholar or a commentator. He is a troll, and nothing more.

    Van wrote:
    “’There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus. The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.’ – Albert Scweitzer (1875-1965)

    You just accused Albert Schweitzer of being classless, unqualified, and simple minded. Par for the course for people who have no respect for intelligence and education.

    Many scholars have tried to find evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus really existed. They came up with nothing, absolutely nothing as Dr. Schweitzer said.

    You people have bought into all the lies of religion and then you repeat these lies without any hint of a conscience. Calling me a liar when all I do is speak the truth just shows how backward your evil religion really is.”

    Sheila responded:
    “Well, it’s a classic move by you to rip a quotation out of context. Who is it you’re listening to? It makes no sense for you to drop what you think is a bombshell when all you’ve done now is make yourself look more foolish because you never considered that Google just might have Schweitzer’s book on line.

    Anyone who cares to can read further down the chapter and see that Schweitzer was referring to the historic Jesus as He was portrayed by the modern theological historians of his own time. His thought was that “That” Jesus never existed… His point was that we end up molding Him according to our modern way of thinking categorically. We essentially risk minimizing the astonishing profundity of His teachings.

    This link begins with the quote you gave us and then explains exactly what Schweitzer was getting at. The man made the cross he wanted on his own grave, for Pete’s sake.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=uzRXxvPsylkC&pg=PA478#v=onepage&q&f=false

    To date, Van still ignores the proof of his irrelevancy. He continues to persecute in the only way he as power to do. That power, in this instance, being the grace of Dr. Brown. Be sure to thank YHWH that Van is not in any governmental position where his bigotry and prejudice can do more harm.

    2 Timothy 3
    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  3. Bo, you should think about who you are and why you post. I’m not going to respond to your or Adam’s posts.

    Dr. Brown,
    You make whatever argument you want to support whatever you want and I’ll refute it which disqualifies your previous statement absolutely. Or you can excuse yourself from a real debate by claiming you don’t have the time. I don’t care.

  4. Van,

    You’ve had more than ample opportunity to engage any one of us in a debate or even a conversation but that’s not what you’re interested in or we would have seen evidence of it by now. You post highly inflammatory remarks, as if you’re tossing in a grenade, and then you retreat until the next time. You’ve given absolutely nothing other than uninformed, prepackaged, one liners that you believe must really sting us; well they don’t. Anyone of us would gladly converse with you if that was your intention, obviously it’s not. Your sole purpose in posting is to mock us. The thing is we’re gracious enough to let you do it. You haven’t tried to reason with us, which is what most opponents would do. Then again, most would bring at least some verifiable “facts” to the conversation. Just bring something, anything to the table, preferably something substantive, and we’ll debate till the cows come home!

    You have nothing, you’re faith in atheistic humanism is all in vain.

    Just Google Dr. Brown’s debates and take a listen before you challenge him. That’s funny!

  5. Van,

    Well, I guess that just shows that you are doing what you condemn Dr. Brown for. I think that hypocrisy is your middle name. We all know that you won’t answer because you have no answer that serves your purpose. This is par for the course for you. You have done this over and over…projecting your own dishonesty upon others. Maybe Benjamin or Sheila will also call you on the carpet for being dishonest and self-serving also. Maybe Dr. Brown will do us all a favor and either moderate your posts or ban you from posting.

  6. You don’t care. I suggest that you posted because you do care. You should listen to these guys. They talk sense.
    Not to mention Truth.

  7. Van,

    >> lose his business just for saying something stupid?

    It wasn’t “just something stupid” — it was racist speech.

    It is up to the NBA, not me, if this is worth banning him for — but let’s not soft-sell racism.

    By the way — in most jobs I’ve had, I could get fired for saying stupid stuff — to my boss, to co-workers, to co-2workers, etc.

    Stuff far less “stupid” than we heard on that tape!

    It’s not a free-speech issue. It’s about running a decent business. Free speech rarely exists in places of work.

  8. Van is just upset because we actually challenge whar he says, rather than being intimidated as some Christans are when they come across his rhetoric. For the record, Van has also holdx to this idea that Jesus came from mythical sources like Horus and Boulder. Aside from the fact that even hard leftists like Bart Ehrman are scandalized by such a view, this video is excellent in showjng how silly those views reallyare:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0-EgjUhRqA

  9. There once was a man that proclaimed,
    That all faith was proven defamed.
    But all he did post
    Proved that he believed most
    And he only knew not he was shamed.

    Well Van is the name of this dude
    Whose worship is easily viewed.
    Only his self-crafted god
    Is fatally flawed,
    His view of himself being skewed.

    His worship, he does, in the mirror.
    And it could never be clearer
    That for him what is “true”
    Can’t come from you
    For he is the only inventor.

    So he never answers The call
    To prove now once and for all
    That his deceit proffered quotes
    Which he shamelessly promotes
    Are more than just bigoted gall*.

    Now he is left with the knowing
    That his words are nothing but blowing
    For all substance is lost
    When he won’t pay the cost
    Of an answer to which he is owing.

    Added to this we all witness
    That he has boasted his fitness
    To answer any conclusion
    But it is just an allusion
    When challenged he fails to confess.

    This man of whom I make rhyme
    Has proven time after time
    That his lies and deceit
    And outrageous conceit
    Make his assertions are not worth a dime.

    *Gall: n. the trait of being rude and impertinent; inclined to take liberties

  10. The one thing I would want to post on Mr. Sterling is that he is an older man who has made the mistake of bringing to his table a young woman who is likely a Deliala. I do not necessarily think he is racist, I think what he is trying to say is that he does not want at his table/ or his sports box a certain class of people. This is not his crowd, and for that he should consider selling out of the NBA. He is looking more for a orchestra crowd type. Get rid of the young woman who is selling you out in your own home. Your should be more mature than to have a gold digging woman lie and stabbing you in the back.

    I give the Jewish people much credit for not maligning people for the role certain types of people played in the holocaust. I find this to be the highest degree of credibility that a human can have. I commend these people for not blaming a race when that was and is the easist answer. I will give Sterling the same consideration and not jump to the easiest conclusion that he is a racist which he is most likely not. I would even go as far to say that I have not meet a racist Jewish person.

  11. Bo, you are actually quite talented when it comes to poetry. I enjoyed your post as Van most likely is over come with amazment that poetry is posted to this now famous Van! Wow

  12. Jon,

    You said, “I do not necessarily think he is racist, I think what he is trying to say is that he does not want at his table/ or his sports box a certain class of people.”

    What is your definition of a racist, and have you listened to the tape?

    If he said the same things about Jewish people, I’d venture to say that you would have a different opinion. Sterling has had suits against him for not selling property to minorities as well. I find myself amazed at how people, such as yourself, can draw such a convoluted conclusion as demonstrated with your above statement… smh

  13. Jon,

    Thanks for the kind words. Maybe Van can catch on if something akin to nursery rhymes or Dr. Suess is presented to him…maybe not. At least that is what Isaiah says.

    Isaiah 28 (The Message)
    9 “Is that so? And who do you think you are to teach us? Who are you to lord it over us? We’re not babies in diapers to be talked down to by such as you—
    10 ‘Da, da, da, da, blah, blah, blah, blah. That’s a good little girl, that’s a good little boy.’”
    11 But that’s exactly how you will be addressed. God will speak to this people In baby talk, one syllable at a time—
    12 and he’ll do it through foreign oppressors. He said before, “This is the time and place to rest, to give rest to the weary. This is the place to lay down your burden.” But they won’t listen.
    13 So GOD will start over with the simple basics and address them in baby talk, one syllable at a time—”Da, da, da, da, blah, blah, blah, blah. That’s a good little girl, that’s a good little boy.” And like toddlers, they will get up and fall down, get bruised and confused and lost.
    14 Now listen to GOD’s Message, you scoffers, you who rule this people in Jerusalem.
    15 You say, “We’ve taken out good life insurance. We’ve hedged all our bets, covered all our bases. No disaster can touch us. We’ve thought of everything. We’re advised by the experts. We’re set.”
    16 But the Master, GOD, has something to say to this: “Watch closely. I’m laying a foundation in Zion, a solid granite foundation, squared and true. And this is the meaning of the stone: A TRUSTING LIFE WON’T TOPPLE.

    Van the mocker, whose middle name is hypocrisy, is toppling, and is falling backwards and being snared even as we speak…he just does not know it…because he doesn’t want to be confused with the facts or with mature arguments. Van has digressed so far that nothing but ridicule can possibly get through to him…or maybe some huge catastrophic judgment…but that is YHWH’s decision. Van may be too far gone. It is very sad indeed…but Van’s deity (himself) will not be left standing…he will bow to Y’shua some day, whether by choice or by shear, trembling, begging, pitiful fear.

    Shalom

  14. Regarding the Sterling case, I have not heard any conservatives make this point — this is not about free speech, it’s about free association.

    Do the other NBA owners ave the right to disassociate with someone who is an expensive, embarrassing pain-in-the-neck?

    The answer is — conservative Christians better hope so.

    This NBA’s right to disassociate with Sterling is the same right your church uses to disassociate with gays or whoever else you don’t like.

    As often as I argue with you guys about homosexuality, I strongly defend to rebuke and expel gays from your “association” (aka your church.)

    I think that is un-Christ-like of you, but I do think it is your civil right.

    This is the same civil right that the NBA owners are exercising when they rebuked and expelled Sterling.

  15. Mike asked the question if it was right for the President to weigh in on the Sterling case. I would say two things on this. First of all, President Obama was asked this question so that was why he spoke on it; and second, his comments were sound and accurate are are to be commended.

    Regarding the NBA’s ruling. I believe it to be just indeed. The question of privacy is not the issue. The FBI was invading MLK’s privacy 50 years ago, and that was never a collective issue raised, so this is nothing new.

    The fact is, if we are going to stand as followers of Christ first, then we should not compromise with racist who have been exposed. If the Church won’t judge with righteous judgement, then we are a people to be pitied. So let’s stop putting the players on trial with “what if” seneros, while attempting to soften the ugliness of this sin. The ruling was just as a clear message has been sent.

  16. Greg, I think you misunderstand. Conservative Christians welcome homosexuals into the Church, as it’s only there that they can find healing and be saved.

    1 Corintians 6:9-11 (NRSV)

    9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    Verse 11 is especially important. “… this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed…” They are no longer those things. The doors are open for all to come and be washed.

    ————–
    (KJV)
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

  17. I left a comment on Youtube under a video about the flood and in it I’d said that all the water didn’t come from just rain, as someone had calculated (or seemed to) the amount of rain that would have fallen in an hour. He thought it was beyond belief. Recently we had really bad floods with an astronomical amount of rainfall in one hour! Anyway, I thought nothing of it but then I get an email with a new comment. Anyone care to take a stab at it. I haven’t determined how I’ll answer it yet but it might be a good exercise for us. This is it:

    lennyhipp
    “Sheila C it really doesn’t matter if all the water came from rain or not until you reconcile the following: 1)if the water came from “the deep”, WHERE are these huge underground empty caverns that once contained water? 2)WHERE did all the water go? 3)there’s ZERO evidence for a global flood 4) there’s a boat load (pun intended) of evidence that a global flood COULD NOT have happened in the last 150MY.”

    Anyone?

  18. Brian, What I was saying is that he deserves a hearing to explain himself. Maybe he feels threatened with this younger woman of not being stealthy enough some younger horned up basketball players. Do we throw the racist card down and take everything away from him. Brian if the German’s had put your people through the holocaust would you be able to separate the people from the cause? It takes a special people to get to the truth of a matter, without the actual truth say in science you do not have something that works. Brian think it through this is an important concept. Brian I do not know you possibly you are a German what would you think if you had put a different people through such a tragedy.. you would not be able to live without someone trying to wipe you off the earth. I am overcome with the amount of fortitude that the Jewish people have had to get to the truth of the matter- it is more difficult than words to describe reasons for such atrocities in yet reason’s do exist. I will still be slow to persecute this owner of the NBA- He

  19. Benjamin,

    >> Greg, I think you misunderstand. Conservative Christians welcome homosexuals into the Church, as it’s only there that they can find healing and be saved.

    Oh, I understand. Conservative Christians welome gays as long as they stop being gay.

    It’s a very convoluted definition of “welcome” that makes conservative Christians feel better about themselves but doesn’t fool anybody else.

    >>sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God

    Just curious… does your church treat the greedy the same way they treat the gays? Has your church every endorsed laws denying greedy people their civil rights, for example?

  20. … and I’m waiting for Dr. Brown to go on Piers Morgan’s show to school him about the bible and greedy, so-called “Christians.”

  21. Shiela,

    >> I left a comment on Youtube under a video about the flood and in it I’d said that all the water didn’t come from just rain, as someone had calculated (or seemed to) the amount of rain that would have fallen in an hour. He thought it was beyond belief.

    The Flood makes sense once you get your mind around the cosmology of that day. The earth was viewed as in a “vault” that sat above and below a cosmic sea.

    It’s perfectly clear in Genesis 1 but a lot of people miss it, since it is so radically different from what we know from science.

    “And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.”

  22. I didn’t state the obvious: since the earth sits on water and under water, there is more than enough water to cover the entire Earth in 15 cubits of it.

  23. “You’ve had more than ample opportunity to engage any one of us in a debate or even a conversation but that’s not what you’re interested in or we would have seen evidence of it by now”

    > Hilarious! I asked you to present me with some real evidence that Jesus Christ actually existed. Do I have to point out AGAIN that you and everybody else has completely failed to do this? You told me how MUCH other believers BELIEVE they really really do! That just doesn’t cut it. So debate away. Let’s see you verify the existence of Jesus Christ using sources independent of the Bible. I’m waiting… and waiting… and waiting… and I’ve BEEN waiting… and I’ll wait forever because no such evidence exists and you KNOW it.

  24. Dr Brown.
    Is that one of Greg Kounkl’s tactics?
    I must get that book.

    Here’s a question.
    Who would you choose as the most ’rounded’ apologists currently, rather than science weighted or scholarly or philosophical.

  25. Here’s your Evidence Van

    Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius Africanus,
    Origen, Pliny the Younger, Thallus.

  26. Van, I’ve encouraged you to find absolute infallible proof that Jesus exists, and I don’t believe you did what was asked.

    The proof you pretend to seek that Jesus is true, alive, and real, is all over the world.

    Or, do you believe that some people have simply evolved into having the ability to speak in tongues, and they…..they….just happened to be believers in Jesus?

    Did you go to those who speak in tongues for real, and hear what it is they say? Did you listen to see if each one has his own language (tongue)? Did you notice the different sounds?
    Did you notice how it flows, like Jesus said it would? (like rivers of living water)

    If it’s just natural ability, why don’t you do it?

    Or, is it simply that some people have not yet evolved into having the ability to speak in tongues and you just happen to be one of them because you do not believe in Jesus?

    Van, why is it that you will not come under the authority of any, but instead, as you say, “give orders, not take them.”?

    Do you really believe yourself to be unbiased, true, truthful, honest, and just, more than any, and therefore you deserve the seat you have placed yourself in?

    There is one that is higher than the heavens and he is watching over you.

  27. How many of us when you choose a place to live, or a school for our children look for the poorest neighborhood to live in? Is not that a form of what Sterling who is in his 80’s is doing? When we have guests over do we look for the poorest people to invite into our homes? It’s not that we are against poor people we are just choosing when and where to have them over. But, what about if I tithe and even hire some poor people which helps them out tremendously.

    Now you come into my home and catch me complaining to my young mistress who wants to invite her associates to come in and have a back yard party in my home. What would you be caught saying in a secret I phone recording?

    Jesus did go to the homes of the poor/tax collector’s/ did not have a mistress / I think the millennium period will be a different world.

  28. I do not defend Sterling’s having a mistress/his ego/his likely not giving 10 percent of his wealth to a church or synagogue/any part of his life in being a mature human with limited time he is acting foolishly.

    I do defend him in he is categorically not a racist. His pants are down and he has been burned but his whole life he did not get where he is by being a racist. This is just not accurate.

  29. Jon,

    >>When we have guests over do we look for the poorest people to invite into our homes? It’s not that we are against poor people we are just choosing when and where to have them over. But, what about if I tithe and even hire some poor people which helps them out tremendously.

    On first blush, this is highly offensive.

    Being white is not like being rich and being black is not like being poor!

    This fact that this analogy makes sense to you makes me wonder how you view race.

    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.. surely you don’t view it this way. Where you trying to explain how a racist views black people (but not necessarily you)?

  30. “Here’s your Evidence Van
    Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius Africanus,
    Origen, Pliny the Younger, Thallus.”

    > Even the most conservative scholars say that Eusibius forged the golden paragraphs in the works of Josephus. If they were there before then why didn’t Origen mention them? He was very familiar with Jospehus’ book. None of the rest of these men were alive when Jesus supposedly was. So you have second century writers giving hearsay accounts of stories from the first half of the first century. Hearsay is not evidence. Your argument is one gigantic fail. You are guilty of promoting an obvious hoax. Your punishment is in the fact that you have been totally discredited. Don’t waste my time with anymore ridiculous arguments that any fith grader could easily see through.

  31. I, personally, like having Van here.

    It means I get a whole lot less vitriol for disagreeing with you guys.

  32. Jon,

    >> I do defend him in he is categorically not a racist.

    Seriously? You didn’t detect any racist attitudes in those tapes?

    The worst, for me, was his “I give them houses” part of the rant.

    This attitude seemed straight out of the plantation where black people didn’t “earn” their living. It was “given” to them by the largess of the plantation owner.

    How is that “categorically” not racist?

  33. Jon,

    Here is the exact quote:

    Sterling: “You just, do I know? I support them and give them food, and clothes, and cars, and houses. Who gives it to them? Does someone else give it to them? Do I know that I have—Who makes the game? Do I make the game, or do they make the game? Is there 30 owners, that created the league?”

    This strikes me as a profoundly racist attitude. It seems, in his mind, it’s all about the white owners giving stuff to the black players.

    It’s like the plantation attitude where the South was not built by the hard work of black people — it was built only by the plantation owners.

  34. Greg he makes the mistake of saying that ” HE GIVES ” God gives- only God Gives- God gives me breath and life- Only God can give and that is what this man of age 80 needs to find out.

    Only God can give say a miniVan the life in him and allow him to poke back and deny everything! We are given opportunities to think through things to have opinions. This is a place to figure it out and then to worship the God of the universe. The miniVan can be a little cranky crab and say that he is smarter than everyone else. Remember the number 1 866 34 TRUTH.
    Truth is always available a phone call away. But, if you want to be a crabby paddy you can be you have the freedom to do so.

  35. Greg,

    “Oh, I understand. Conservative Christians welome gays as long as they stop being gay.

    It’s a very convoluted definition of “welcome” that makes conservative Christians feel better about themselves but doesn’t fool anybody else.”

    Then I will just ask you to exegete 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NRSV)

    9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    You don’t want them to be washed? Or inherit the kingdom of God?

  36. And we do not welcome them as long as they stop being gays. We welcome them so that they can have the opportunity to hear the Word, which if thats the case, will produce real change and fruit i their lives.

  37. Robert Marks and DB,

    You see now why there’d never be a debate with Van. He rejects all the scholars in favor of his mantra. “Jesus never existed.” I pointed him to Bart Erhman’s book but I can’t imagine him actually reading it as the conclusion is not what he wants to believe. Ignorance is bliss, don’t you know?

    It’s one thing to say you don’t believe you need His salvation, it’s another to say He never existed. Let alone still exists! Has always existed is way too much to believe!!

  38. Thanks for your thoughts on the flood, Greg.

    Bo, that was a cool rendition of Isaiah’s words!

    We do need to pray for Van. We never know but that God has plans for him such as he had for Saul/Paul.

  39. Jon,

    You said, ” I do defend him in he is categorically not a racist. His pants are down and he has been burned but his whole life he did not get where he is by being a racist. This is just not accurate.

    Your statement is as bit illogical. Are you concluding that no successful people are racists? His real-estate practices have a racial history as well. I previously asked you fair questions, but you didn’t answer either one. Because you believe that Mr. Sterling is not a racist, I asked you:

    What is your definition of a racist?
    Did you listen to the recording in its entirety?

    I only ask this because it is baffling to believe that you would take such a stance in light of what has been said. Dr. Brown was clear in stating that something would be wrong with and individual who didn’t recognize that, of which I totally agree. So, I’m giving you the benefit of doubt that you may not have actually heard it. Some of the statements he said to his girlfriend were as follows:

    “Why are you taking pictures with minorities?”
    “It bothers me a lot that you are associating with black people”
    He did not want her to be seen walking in public with black people…

    The NBA needed to take swift action, because it was the right thing to do. Mr. Silver performed his due diligence in the matter and made an educated judgment, of which he is to be commended.

    As to your comments regarding the Holocaust and positing a different scenario, you lost me, and I really couldn’t follow where you were going and didn’t know the point that you were trying to convey. Simply put, racism is hatred, and hate is as murder in the eyes of G-d (1 Jn 3:15). He turned Miriam into a leper because of similar sentiments, so I don’t know what your defense is all about. He admitted that he made these comments, and because they are public, swift action had to be taken.

  40. Brian I will answer your question if you can answer mine.

    What is your definition of a homophobe? If you can answer my question I will answer your question fully.

    Where I lost you is actually quite simple and let me be very direct with this. Have you ever visited a holocaust museum. I have and I have German ancestory. I felt such condemnation could easily be piled on me for being born into my family. I am overwealmed with the accuracy of getting to the truth of the eveil that happened. I am impressed as a people that had the fortitude to not only sort this out, but to build a country stronger and more technological than almost every other country. The only way that they could do this is to assign accurately the events of the past and build upon those truths. (AND of course the GOD OF ISRAEL>) So, you see Brian to not quickly label with a bumbper sticker racist/homophobe/anti meat/ polluter/ ect ect ect makes actually a lot of sense when we can see God’s own people accuately sorting out events in history that would be quite simple to lable all Germans and murder’s – beast- animals! I appreciate being able to come to God to be judged on my merits.

    I will be slow to judge this 80 year old man, he deserves that from me, Brian you can slap your own bumber sticker on your car.

  41. Kobe Bryant, the washed up, past his prime, moody star of the Lakers needs to banned from the NBA for life immediately. He hurled a homophobic slur at an NBA official and hundreds of fans and all the players, coaches and officials heard it. This was no private conversation, it was a public comment. If Kobe doesn’t get a life time ban for this then the NBA needs to leave Mr. Sterling alone.

    Ray there is so much good in the world because people are basically good, more proof that the Bible is just plain wrong, about EVERYTHING.

  42. Jon, why the games with you answer my question first? Also, Your comments about me putting a bumper sticker on my car is unwarranted and out of touch.

    You said, “What is your definition of a homophobe? If you can answer my question I will answer your question fully.”

    My definition of a homophobe would be one who is afraid of homosexuals.

    You asked me if I’ve ever visited the Holocaust museum, well, the answer to that is, yes. Very telling indeed! The difficulty with your analogy was found in your poor sentence structure, so it wasn’t quite as simple as you implied. Please re-read and then you will see what I mean.

    Again, Jon, he’s been judged him by what he “said,” for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Hence,this is what has been taken into account. Also, just to clarify, I asked you two questions.

  43. Brian the answer to your two questions

    1. My definition of racism is someone who assumes they are racially superior to other groups.
    2. I have seen and heard nonstop this story on the news on every media available, so yes I have heard the tape in its entirety.
    3. Why the games? The question is to see where you answer what you have been taught in society how to label a group of people. Your answer is actually a correct one and is followed up by do you actually know someone who is truly homophobic? I have never meet someone is traumatized by meeting a homosexual and reject the labels that our society names other people. The democrats are experts at naming things like pro choice for murder, out of touch for the other views in government when they are actually much out of touch with God.

    I know that you have heard the tapes and have already labeled someone with a label that has been conditioned to stick on someone who has uttered something at his personal home in a personal environment. It is deeper than this quick knee jerk reaction, there is much more to this story and needs caution before you pull out a label and stick it on someone.

    That does not mean I agree with his life style, or defend him unconditionally. I only say that he deserves the right to defend himself in the public court of TMZ.

    Brian you should see my texting it is even worse.

  44. Sheila,

    Paul had a clear conscience and was trying to serve YHWH. Van is quite the opposite. There are some things and people that YHWH says not to pray for. Sometimes it is time to move on. The Message version gets a few things right now and then, esp. as to the feel of what is being said. The complete Jewish Bible actually does a better job actually, but I wanted to be as simple as possible for Van.

    1Sa 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.

    1 Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
    13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    Ac 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

    1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    2 Ti 4
    14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
    15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

    Acts 13
    8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
    9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
    10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
    11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
    12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

    Shalom

  45. Van wrote:
    “> Hilarious! I asked you to present me with some real evidence that Jesus Christ actually existed. Do I have to point out AGAIN that you and everybody else has completely failed to do this? You told me how MUCH other believers BELIEVE they really really do! That just doesn’t cut it. So debate away. Let’s see you verify the existence of Jesus Christ using sources independent of the Bible.”

    There has been real evidence presented over and over. Van just refuses to accept it. He cannot prove the universe came into being except by sources that were not just hearsay form a hundred years after, but he relies on speculation that supposedly came billions of years after the fact. None of it can be replicated in a scientific experiment. He can show no documentation to back his claims and foolishly denies history and it’s writers. He does not accept the eyewitness testimony of the Bible, but blindly has faith in scientific speculation that he nor the writers of it have ever witnessed.

    He tries to draw people into an argument that must conform to his rules instead of being judged by the merits of case. All he does is say, “That is ridiculous.” He never shows why…except from unreliable pseudo-scholars that would do better writing for the National Inquirer. He quote mines people like Schweitzer and will not admit it even when the proof is presented (see post #3 above.) He deceives and lies and insults, but he never proves anything. You will not change his mind, because he will do anything to cover his lies and deceit and cannot admit when he has been shown to be wrong. It is a heart issue.

    When someone presses him for an answer, as Adam and I have, he then declares that he will not answer our posts. He does this, but condemns Dr. Brown for not answering his posts and throws insults at everyone else to intimidate them. He allows himself to play by a different set of rules than he will allow to us. According to the scripture he is a fool. Read the list below and see for yourself if there is any category that he fails to fulfill.

    Pr 27:22 Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him.

    Pr 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

    Pr 17:16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

    Pr 18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

    Pr 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

    Ps 14:1 A Psalm of David.» The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Pr 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

    Pr 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

    Pr 12:16 A fool’s wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.

    Pr 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

    Pr 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

    Pr 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back.
    4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
    5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

    Pr 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.

    So do not give him any honor, whatever you do. He deserves only ridicule.

    Shalom

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