You’ve Got Questions, We’ve Got Answers!

1. Regarding the question by Elliana from Maryland regarding the bodily resurrection of the believers. (including, soul sleep)

   My question is — what about the “unborn babies”?

   If you believe that life begins at conception, then this means that many people in heaven will be a microscopic clusters of cells What will they be like in heaven?

   I know this seems like a zany question but it really isn’t — when you think about it. (and, sadly, few people think through what they believe.)

   So, think about this for a minute:

   15 to 20% of all pregnancies end in natural miscarriage. (not to mention intentional abortions). There have been/are about 15 billion people.

   Simple math shows that a couple of billion people in heaven will never have accepted Jesus, never have walked the earth or even had consciousness.

   In other words, many (most?) people in heaven will have just woke-up there, completely unaware that they ever were on earth.

   So, what are they like?

2. Greg, I imagine they will be a lot like Jesus, in heaven.

3. Regarding: gay rights as a civil right. (aka “gay is not the new black”)

   In this show, Dr. Brown argues that homosexual “behavior” is not an innate trait, like skin color, and thus is not a civil right.

   Since when can’t chosen behaviors be a civil right?

   Religion is a choice! Is freedom of religion not still a civil right?

   Association is a choice! Is not freedom of association still a civil right?

   Political speech is a choice! Is not free speech a civil right?

   Publishing a newspaper is choice! Is there not freedom of the press?

   Heck… owning a gun is a choice. Is there not a right to bear arms?

   Clearly, “innate traits” aren’t the only thing protected by civil rights. Not even close.

   Considering that Dr. Brown has written a couple of books and goodness-knows-how-many articles on this subject, one would have expected him to thought more carefully about this. I guess that’s his choice. 😉

4. Ray,

   >>Greg, I imagine they will be a lot like Jesus, in heaven.

   Nice pious dodge of the issue. But, still a dodge.

   In today’s show, Dr. Brown said people in heaven will long to be “clothed” by their resurrected body.

   For a couple of billion people in heaven, (perhaps the majority) will this be a cluster of cells or a semi-formed fetal body?

   … and don’t dismiss this as some esoteric question. It goes to exactly what Dr. Brown spoke of in this show.

5. I imagine that those in heaven who have not yet had their earthly bodies changed into a glorious one yet through the bodily resurrection of the dead, are yet with Jesus in heaven being much like he is, with eyes that see, ears that hear, feet that can walk, etc. , for I trust that in the Spirit, they are not unclothed, but clothed upon, even as they wait for the resurrection of the dead, for I trust that in the Spirit they can move, in the Spirit, they can see, in the Spirit they can worship, for in the Spirit, they are alive.

   Greg, since when should something that is neither civil, nor right, be accepted as a civil right in the Church of God, or even by any people?

   Have you been a Christian very long?

6. Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

   I would think the same God that called the universe into being could certainly bring an unborn child into full existence.

7. I believe God is able to make us all complete in Jesus.

8. Greg, I am still reading on my Kindle ” a Queer thing happened to America.”

   I am convinced more than ever that if you spend time reading this book, you would not make the argument that you made on your post.

   I do not want to blog argue if you read the book or not- only to say, that these arguments are clearly
   reasoned out in the book. Your post is broken to bits in the book! I would need an exhaustive post to show that.

   I paid for a book for you- just email askdrbrown.org use the coupon free queer thing for Greg. Please do not blog back how much you studied the book- It is taking me months to read this book.

9. Hi Greg,

   I think i understand your question but to me its the same as one who is cremated or dies in a nuclear bomb or something. We get new bodies once we are in heaven. It is our souls and spirits that are eternal not our physical earthly bodies.

10. Greg,

    I guess you are telling us that YHWH, who spoke the universe into existence, and watches ever sparrow that falls to the ground, and decorates every mountain meadow with the smallest of flowers, and kept every crumb of bread from miraculously feeding 5000 people so that none would be lost, doesn’t care about the smallest of humans that are made in His image or that He is not powerful enough to complete and transform their little frames into adult resurrected bodies. What you think is absurd just might be wisdom and love.

    1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

11. Greg,

    You wrote:
    “Simple math shows that a couple of billion people in heaven will never have accepted Jesus, never have walked the earth or even had consciousness.

    In other words, many (most?) people in heaven will have just woke-up there, completely unaware that they ever were on earth.

    So, what are they like?”

    I’d say…maybe about like Adam or Eve when they first woke up…if, and this could be a big if, they actually wake up in heaven instead of on earth for the millennial reign of Messiah.

12. When I read Revelation and other prophetic books, it looks like the earth is going to need some people to populate it after the tribulation. Why not those people that never got the chance to live?

13. Greg,

    Your question reminds me of another question that was asked of Messiah:

    Matthew 22
    23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
    24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
    26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
    27 And last of all the woman died also.
    28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    What will the barely begun human be like in the resurrection? Just like the man that had both legs blown off in a war or like the believers that were torn to shreds by lions and devoured. YHWH seems to be one that finishes what he starts. The world is not out of His control. He does not start a tower without have the funds to complete it.

    Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

14. Greg Allen, (Ref #3)

    I didn’t hear the program that you were referring to, but I would like to address your comments regarding: gay rights as a civil right: At the onset I like to posit that we are both followers of Christ and hold to the teachings of Scripture, of which I trust that you affirm. From this basis we must then formulate what freedoms that we would espouse and hold to as a standard for life and godliness. In this vein, I ask you the following question to ponder:

    When Moses stood before Pharaoh on multiple occasions, he did so with an appeal (and without searching the Scripture), can you finish the rest of the following statement? “Thus says the LORD G-d of Israel: ‘Let My people go….'”

    The whole idea of liberty hinges on last part of this statement, and it is quite interesting that most Christians do not know what comes next. If we miss this fundamental concept then we will misconstrue what true liberty really is.

    I asked the following question on my FB page, “Do you think the gay rights agenda should be included with the March on Washington, Civil Rights Anniversary, that was recently celebrated?” Several professing Christians responded: a few declaring absolutely not; while many stating that it should be included because they have the right to celebrate their sexuality just as a black person. Quite a wide range of views coming from those who would declare that “Jesus is Lord.”

    But, back to the previous statement, “Thus says the LORD G-d of Israel: ‘Let My people go….'” followed with…. “that they may serve Me” (Ex. 8:1, 20; 9:13; 10:3).

    We see the foundation to freedom laid for G-d’s people, in that the liberties that are granted to us must come back to serving Him in Spirit and Truth; hence, the freedom to engage in the homosexual lifestyle cannot be supported by G-d’s children in any such manner at all – anymore than one can justify racism, abortion, drugs or the exploitation of the poor – and remain faithful to the Lordship of Christ and worship to YHVH.

    Sure, one may argue for freedom as an American citizen because the concept sounds right, but if you are a follower of Christ first, then your moral obligation will be to G-d and His truth. This nation was founded on the freedom of religion, as written in our First Amendment Right. Notwithstanding, immediately after the Civil War one of the first things freed black men did was to build churches in order to worship the Lord. Israel was not granted freedom after 430 years without a purpose. The focus of the Promised Land was that once they came into the land, Israel was instructed to set up a memorial as a reminder that they were to worship G-d and Him alone.

    Again, reason for liberty has always come about so that G-d’s people can serve Him, and this must be the standard that has to be utilized in all things. Now professing Christians are fighting for the freedom for the license to sin, and this cannot be so if we are to remain true to our G-d.

    Something to consider…

    Shalom

15. I’ve heard it said that homosexuality hurts no one, but I do wonder if there were others besides Lot and his family in Sodom who did not practice such things, and if they escaped.

    Why should be plead for something that has caused others to leave everything behind or be killed?

    As Christians how can we rightly plead for such a cause?

    If we did, wouldn’t we be false Christians? If we teach, and we teach things contrary to the will of God, wouldn’t we be false teachers?

16. Greg,

    The early protestant confessions of faith (such as the Westminster Confession of Faith) do not state that all children are saved. But regardless of your view on the salvation of children (unless you believe no children are saved) there will be a large number of people in heaven who died before having much experience in this world. I don’t see how your view solves the problem you created (but I don’t see it as a problem either) unless you don’t think you become human until after a year old or more. Do you think a child who died at one month can long for a resurrected body but a baby who died in his mother’s womb can’t?

    I have a question for you. Why do you love sexual immorality so much that you are willing to defend cutting apart children while they are still alive?

    Doug

17. Jon,

    >> I am convinced more than ever that if you spend time reading this book, you would not make the argument that you made on your post.

    Jon,

    Would you please show me enough respect to not accuse me of lying when I say that I not only read the book, I studied it. I also researched more than a few of Dr. Brown’s sources.

    The book is not convincing at all. The sourcing is horrible — many of his sources are not authoritative or even fact-checked. Some are no more than internet rumors or from dubious web sites like Breitbart. Not exactly scholarly!

    Best I can tell, Dr. Brown did no interviews, attended nothing he reports on, no original research or contributed any new material to this debate.

    It’s harder for me to understand why you would expect this book to be persuasive? It’s basically a very long exercise in confirmation bias.

18. Dave,

    >> It is our souls and spirits that are eternal not our physical earthly bodies.

    I believe that Dr. Brown said something different on his show. Doesn’t he believe in a resurrection of our earthly bodies? (consistent with a literalistic reading of the bible.)

    I’m more like you — I think a more spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is less problematic.

    Our souls are with God. I’m good with that. I don’t needs to be walking on streets make of gold so pure that it is transparent like glass.

19. Ray,

    >> Greg, since when should something that is neither civil, nor right, be accepted as a civil right in the Church of God, or even by any people?

    You seem to have a foggy notion of what a civil right is. It’s not “right” in the sense of right vs. wrong. Often, civil rights protect people who are, indeed, very wrong.

    Civil rights allow you freedom or your religion — right or wrong.

    Strong civil rights mean that your church can be anti-gay while other churches, will accept love the gays as they believe Jesus would.

    Trust me on this one — you do not want to go wobbly on civil rights.

    You have more to lose, than gain, when you inevitably find yourself in the minority on the gay issue.

    >> Have you been a Christian very long?

    For decades — I accepted the Lord as a child. How about you?

20. Bo said,

    >> What you think is absurd just might be wisdom and love.

    I didn’t use the word absurd or even insinuate it.

    I am asking a legitimate question for those who believe in a literalism bodily resurrection.

    In an odd way, I am giving the literalistic interpretation credibility in a way you aren’t, when you dodge the question.

    Some people here had the courage of their convictions to speculate on an answer — that God retroactively give blastocysts and fetuses a body. (I’m not sure where one would get that from the bible.) Fair enough. Its this true for small children as well? Or are they eternally babies?

    But nobody seems to be given pause, as I am, by the possibility that most people in heaven will never have walked the earth or accepted Jesus. They will have just “woke up” there.

    If your position is correct, heaven will be populated by billions of fetuses who never read a bible, never had a faith, never spoke the name of Jesus — never knew that any of this happened.

    Jews and Christians will be almost incidental.

    After all these endless hours of debate around abortion, have you never thought this point through? Nobody mentions it, anyway.

21. Brian,

    First of all — thank you for recognizing that I am a Christian. Lots of people have replaced John 3:16 with Leviticus 20:13.

    As I read your post, you are basically arguing for a theocracy.

    But, this is hugely problematic in a modern, pluralistic society. Even within Christianity — that would be a mess. Which interpretation of the Bible would we enforce?

    My church? (accept the gays, as I believe Jesus would)

    or Dan1el’s? (You wouldn’t believe what he wanted done to the gays — in the name of the bible! Even Dr. Brown rebuked him.)

    A secular society with civil, not theocratic, rights is a “win win” for the church and the state.

    And, as you find yourself in a minority on this issue, you will be glad that America protects the “civil right to be wrong” (as the majority defines it.)

    … and this is nothing new. From the time of Judges to Paul in the Roman Empire to the church in the Middle Ages to now… believers have always struggle with the balance of being citizens of the Kingdom of God and citizens of earthy Kingdoms.

    …and, thanks again, for acknowledging that we can disagree on this issue and still be brothers in the Lord who both love and respect the Word of God.

22. Greg,

    In addressing your questions about resurrection bodies and unborn children, etc. 1 Corinthians 15 sheds light on this topic.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-53

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Key words I guess would be corruption/incorruption, changed, mortal/immortality.

    We know from a literalistic interpretation that we will be given glorified bodies. They will not be identical to the ones we have now. Notice that those alive at the time will also receive ‘changed’ bodies so it’s not just the dead that receive bodies. These bodies are mortal (corruption) and we will at that time be clothed with immortal bodies (incorruption, implying a necessary change).

    This also teaches us that an elderly person with arthritis or any other hindering ailment will not be resurrected into that state but that they will be rejuvenated to their prime (as God determines since these bodies are from Him). Which also plays into unborn children or small children. They will receive bodies fashioned to their prime (as God determines and knows). So a male “cluster of cells” will receive a mature body as evidenced from Scripture.

    After all, our spirits are our eternal selves, these fleshly bodies are temporary while we sojourn here.

    The Bibles also teaches that children who die go to be with the Lord:

    2 Samuel 12:21-23

    21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

    22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

    23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

    -King David knows that he will one day see his son (go to him). It’s the same with people with mental disabilities who are incapable of understanding the Gospel. God takes them home. In Heaven, all have faith in Jesus.

    Sometimes I think about how my Mother had one or two miscarriages between my older brother and myself, and I think about how one day I will meet one or two brother/sisters I have never known.

23. Psalm 139:13 also speaks to God knowing us in the womb, or “cluster of cells”.

    13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

24. Let’s remember that there is a dispensation between ‘the great and the terrible day of The Lord’ (Joel 2:31) and the ‘new heaven and a new earth'(Rev. 21:1). There will be ample time for them to live during ‘the thousand years’ (where ‘thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.’ (Rev. 20:1-6)

25. Greg—-“I’m more like you — I think a more spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is less problematic.
    “Our souls are with God. I’m good with that. I don’t needs to be walking on streets make of gold so pure that it is transparent like glass.”

    “But nobody seems to be given pause, as I am, by the possibility that most people in heaven will never have walked the earth or accepted Jesus. They will have just “woke up” there.”

    Greg—“Some people here had the courage of their convictions to speculate on an answer — that God retroactively give blastocysts and fetuses a body. (I’m not sure where one would get that from the bible.) Fair enough. Its this true for small children as well? Or are they eternally babies?

    ESV Rom 4:17
    as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
    NKJV Matt 3:9
    “and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
    Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
    Jdg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
    Luk 1:15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
    Luk 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

    Greg—-“I’m more like you — I think a more spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is less problematic.
    “Our souls are with God. I’m good with that. I don’t needs to be walking on streets make of gold so pure that it is transparent like glass.”

    Sorry, but, according to Scripture, whether problematic or not, the Resurrection was physical not spiritual. It’s the cornerstone of Salvation and I’m surprised to hear you say otherwise. How does the Lord effect having you in His presence without clothing you in righteousness with a new body? Or do you think we’re all esoterically-mind-melded with God after the resurrection?

    NKJV Rom 8:11
    But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    NLT Rom 8:23
    And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.

    Footnote:
    * 8:23 Greek wait anxiously for sonship.

    Strong’s G2227 – zōopoieō (Quicken)
    ζῳοποιέω

    1. to produce alive, begat or bear living young

    2. to cause to live, make alive, give life
    by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
    to restore to life
    to give increase of life: thus of physical life
    of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

    3. metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

    1Co 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    NKJV 1Peter 3:18
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, :19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    We are only disembodied while awaiting the resurrection of the dead. I agree we’re spirits while waiting. We’re either in the abode of the righteous, (Abraham’s bosom) or the abode of the wicked (Hades).

    Luk 20:27
    Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
    Luk 20:33
    Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    Luk 20:35
    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Luk 20:36
    Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    Jhn 5:29
    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Jhn 11:24
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    Jhn 11:25
    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    If we are merely the same spirits forever after we’re dead, separated between the righteous and the unrighteous, what is it we’re waiting on? We’re waiting to be clothed with our immortal bodies; same likeness, different substance. Lazarus died a natural death again, but in the resurrection at the end of the age, he’ll be clothed as we will with an immortal body. He was resurrected once in the same body he died in.

    “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.”

    The entire testimony of the Apostles was that Messiah was “physically” resurrected, albeit with a body of a different substance. He appeared in His body as Thomas saw the wounds in His hands and side. A disembodied spirit would have no form to appear in.

26. Should “gay rights” be made a civil right? When our religious people wanted protection for themselves they had an amendment passed. Rights of the press, free speech, the right to keep and bear arms, freedom from slavery, the right of male ex-slaves to vote, the right not to face discrimination based on “previous conditions of servitude” (or color of skin), the right of women to vote were all amendments added to the Constitution, as Article V prescribes.

    Where is the “gay rights” amendment? Since all the other rights were required to be secured by amendment, why shouldn’t “gays” and any other “sexual minorities” have to do the same thing? Nothing in the Constitution or in any of the 27 amendments has any reference or intent to protect any “gay rights”.

    All we have are Supreme Court opinions by Supreme Court Justices, who are, in reality, illegally amending the Constitution of the United States. However, nothing in Article V gives the Supreme court the right to amend the Constitution. This article allows amendments only by the people and their elected representatives. Nor does Article III, which establishes and defines the Supreme Court, mention anything about the Supreme Court, or any other court, having the right to amend the Constitution.

    What is going on now with “gay marriage” and other “gay issues” is a perversion of the Constitution. We no longer live under the rule of law, and of the Constitution, but under the rule of lawless judges who are un-Constitutionally, illegally, turning their pet issues into law.

27. “…but under the rule of lawless judges who are un-Constitutionally, illegally, turning their pet issues into law.”

    Christian legislators turned their pet issue of abortion into law until the Supreme Court proved that these anti-abortion laws are unconstitutional. I never met a Christian who had any respect for what rights the Constitution really protects. But then I never met a Christian who believed what the Bible says but only what the Christian says the Bible says.

    By the way the Bible says, In the beginning… Science has proved that there was no beginning. Just another glaring scientific blunder in the Bible which is false from its very first words.

28. Dear Greg,

    I am not accusing you of lying and will leave this alone. I have really enjoyed the book A queer thing happened to America. I find the issues here to reason out (It pans out the truth.)
    It is like gold panning! you sift throgh the issues and throw off the layers of lighter material and at the bottom of the pan shimmering is the gold (TRUTH). As you have panned Greg you are throwing out the gold, I would love for you to have some of this truth to put in your bag it is valuable.

29. Van—“Science has proved that there was no beginning. Just another glaring scientific blunder in the Bible which is false from its very first words.”

    Science has proved no such thing! You should read more. There “was” a beginning, they just don’t want to acknowledge that the cause was God.

    And, you’ll acknowledge an “eternal” universe but the idea of an eternal Creator is beyond you…”strange science.”

30. Van,

    Why should anyone listen to you when you have been proven wrong and won’t admit it? Why should we listen to a troll?

    “troll
    One who posts a deliberately provocative message…with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    When are you going to answer the charge that you took Scweitzer out of context? Did you do it intentionally or were you duped by someone and then just regurgitate the lie? At least admit that you were wrong, even if you won’t tell us your motive. Don’t dodge or ignore this if you are an honest man. To refresh you memory, here is the challenge:

    Below is one of many examples of Van’s deception technique. He has been asked repeatedly to either admit that he has posted false testimony or to produce verification of his assertion. After being called on the carpet, he conveniently ignores all rebuttals and continues to regurgitate deception mixed with a huge amount of rhetoric, vitriol and insult. He is not to be taken seriously as scholar or a commentator. He is a troll, and nothing more.

    Van wrote:
    “’There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus. The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.’ – Albert Scweitzer (1875-1965)

    You just accused Albert Schweitzer of being classless, unqualified, and simple minded. Par for the course for people who have no respect for intelligence and education.

    Many scholars have tried to find evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus really existed. They came up with nothing, absolutely nothing as Dr. Schweitzer said.

    You people have bought into all the lies of religion and then you repeat these lies without any hint of a conscience. Calling me a liar when all I do is speak the truth just shows how backward your evil religion really is.”

    Sheila responded:
    “Well, it’s a classic move by you to rip a quotation out of context. Who is it you’re listening to? It makes no sense for you to drop what you think is a bombshell when all you’ve done now is make yourself look more foolish because you never considered that Google just might have Schweitzer’s book on line.

    Anyone who cares to can read further down the chapter and see that Schweitzer was referring to the historic Jesus as He was portrayed by the modern theological historians of his own time. His thought was that “That” Jesus never existed… His point was that we end up molding Him according to our modern way of thinking categorically. We essentially risk minimizing the astonishing profundity of His teachings.

    This link begins with the quote you gave us and then explains exactly what Schweitzer was getting at. The man made the cross he wanted on his own grave, for Pete’s sake.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=uzRXxvPsylkC&pg=PA478#v=onepage&q&f=false ”

    To date, Van still ignores the proof of his irrelevancy. He continues to persecute in the only way he as power to do. That power, in this instance, being the grace of Dr. Brown. Be sure to thank YHWH that Van is not in any governmental position where his bigotry and prejudice can do more harm.

    2 Timothy 3
    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

31. Bo,

    You might as well give it up. Let it be what it is.

32. I think Bo is doing a good thing by calling upon Van to back-up his claims or fess up. I am glad to see Bo persistently posting this. It also alerts newer people about the character of Van’s posts.

33. Sheila and Benjamin,

    You are both right. I would suggest that someone with some time on their hands to collect some other snippets of Van claiming things and not being willing to back them up. Also of him out and out lying. It could be good to post it after everyone of Van’s posts for all to see why there is no reason to listen to his vitriol. He deserves nothing but ridicule for his hypocrisy and bigotry.

    Shalom

34. The miniVan will contine throwing rocks and sand. This is what a intellectual terroist will do. Does he understand that he is probably on the wrong site with some of the strongest Christian opinions out there? His little dirt clogs are like a hermit crab throwing sand, it does not do anything. What a funny little crab he is!

35. First of all, Christians should never accuse anyone else of quote mining. This is a well known tactic of creationists who quote mine legitimate scientists to make it look like they agree with creationist nonsense or have some problem with the validity of evolutionary theory or some other theory when nothing could be further from the truth. The quote was about the fact that there isn’t any evidence from sources independent of the Bible that Jesus Christ ever existed. This is why rational people do not believe such a person ever existed. That and the fact that the gospels are obvious fairy tales.

36. Van,

    We are not talking about what you think others do. We are talking about a very precise incident that involves you. Are you going to address this issue that shows either that you were deceived by the site you quoted or that you purposely tried to deceive the readers here or are you going to continue to evade the truth and hope that it goes away?

37. I don’t know, Van, I’m a very rational person with a fairly high IQ and I’m sure that Bo and Benjamin and Greg and Jon aren’t slackers either. Dr. Brown has a Doctorate degree, Michael Heiser, again, Doctorate Degree, William Lane Craig is an American philosopher and theologian who “specializes in analytic philosophy and Christian apologetics. Craig earned his Ph.D. at the University of Birmingham in 1977.”

    John Lennox is Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford, Fellow in Mathematics and the Philosophy of Science, and Pastoral Advisor at Green Templeton College, Oxford. He is also an Adjunct Lecturer at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University and at the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and is a Senior Fellow of the Trinity Forum. In addition, he teaches for the Oxford Strategic Leadership Programme at the Executive Education Centre, Said Business School, Oxford University.

    Ravi Zacharias:

    from Wikipedia–

    Frederick Antony Ravi Kumar Zacharias (born 26 March 1946) is an Indian-born, Canadian-American Christian apologist. A defender of traditional evangelicalism,[1][2][3] Zacharias is the author of numerous Christian books, including Gold Medallion Book Award winner Can Man Live Without God?[4] and bestsellers Light in the Shadow of Jihad[5] and The Grand Weaver.[6] He is the founder and chairman of the board of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, host of the radio programs Let My People Think and Just Thinking, and visiting professor at Wycliffe Hall of Oxford, where he teaches apologetics and evangelism.[7] Zacharias held the chair in Evangelism and Contemporary Thought at Alliance Theological Seminary from 1981 to 1984.[8] Commentator Chuck Colson referred to Zacharias as “the great apologist of our time.”[9]

    The Late C.S. Lewis:

    Oxford professor, scholar, author, and Christian apologist

    There’s hundreds and hundreds more just as intelligent and rational as the rest. Where are these air heads that you seem to be referring to? I don’t know any myself. I could listen to any one of them for hours and learn something new each time. Why don’t you just try it, Van. Really. Ravi Zacharias or John Lennox would be a great place to start. You’ve heard Dr. Brown so branch out a little bit and listen, honestly, to their presentations and then come critique their mental health, or “rational minds” and I’ll truly listen to what you have to say.

    You’ve nothing to lose. Go for it! 🙂

38. I have a question for Van If He is an Atheist why is he on this Website?

39. Van,

    What you have done in post 35 is called projection by psychologists. You see something in others that is really in you. You are the pot calling the kettle black. That is hypocrisy. You are making yet one more excuse for not owning up to your lies and deception. This happens to you because you worship yourself. You can’t imagine that your god cannot be perfect. You just cannot admit when you are wrong or when you have sinned. You think that is OK for you to quote mine because you do it for a supposed good reason while all those that you are prejudice against do it for the wrong reasons. It really is time that you actually answer post #30 if you are more than an internet troll.

40. p.s. The above paragraph about John Lennox was taken from his website and should have been in quotes. Sorry about that.

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