Dr. Brown raises some problematic issues for preterists, partial preterists, and post-millenialists, explaining why a premillenial view of the end times is one of hope and victory (preterists and post-millenialists are welcome to call in!), and Dr. Brown will also answer your scripture-related questions. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We are called to, exhorted to, long for, look forward to the appearing of the Lord! Not just some age on the earth, but the return of Jesus!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: What is happening in the earth that draws great controversy and opposition from the world? That’s normally the very thing that God is doing.
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I might just have to discuss the good fellows error. I think I’ll try to make time to do that. It’s important because Replacement Theology is what he believes, and that’s something I would love to reason together on because I feel Scripture proves that to be false. So I imagine he thinks today’s Israeli’s have no right to the land? That’s scary and I’m afraid of where it could lead.
There’s some things I won’t be swayed on and that’s one of them.
Million dollar prize
Even if the prize was like the Warren Buffet prize to find in the new testament where the church has replaced Israel, there would be no pay out. I know a specially signed book is offered as a prize, would you want the money or the book?
Great idea! Everyone will be buying and reading their Bibles! :]
Your right Torah, our bibles, and our relationship in Yeshua is worth more than a million dollars, possibly even worth more than a signed Michael Brown book.
I grew up in a very strong Pre-Millenialist tradition and here’s my problem with them — they have been so wrong, so often!
And, when revealed clearly wrong, they just move on to the next thing, with no apparent self-refection.
I grew up during Hal Lindsay’s glory days and was convinced that Russia was going to invade Israel, in the very near future, as clearly foretold in Revelation,
I don’t remember any mention of Islam. Now, those same people see Islam all through Revelation!
And, I’ve lost track of all the identified AntiChrists and False Prophets who they said were in Revelation.
These days, a shocking 25% percent of Americans think President Obama is (or may be) the Anti-Christ!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/02/americans-obama-anti-christ-conspiracy-theories
And when Obama is out of office, they will move on to someone else and never apologize for demonizing a brother in Christ! And it goes on-an-on like that.
At what point to I get to conclude that Pre-Millenialists are just projecting their own politics, anger and fears into the scripture?
Greg, it seems you’re demonizing a Biblical view based on the actions of those who engage in guesswork. Man’s guesswork does not negate the validity of the Biblical view which does speak about anti-Christ and the actions which will take place just before the end of the age.
“At what point to I get to conclude that Pre-Millenialists are just projecting their own politics, anger and fears into the scripture?”
– Maybe once you can concretely disqualify the pre-millenial view Biblically? All I ask is that you don’t throw out a view based on guesses of man who anti-Christ is or will be, etc. And politics, some sort of anger (anger against what or whom?), nor fear of something (fear of what or whom?) played any type of role in my understanding of prophecy (speaking for myself as a pre-millenialist).
Benjamin,
Sheesh! I’m not “demonizing” anybody. Do you really need to escalate the debate like that?
Would you care to address my point?
Considering how very wrong the per-millenliasts have been over the decades, doesn’t this discredit them?
Besides Obama, I remember Gorbachev, the Pope, Henry Kissinger and Saddam Hussein and (in jest, I think) even Ronald Reagan being nominated as the anti-Christ. And, before my time, it was Hitler, various popes, and Caesar.
And then there is Gog and Magog! Rome, Russia, the EU, Muslims and goodness knows who else.
At some point, I have to wonder if per-millinalism is a religious vehicle for psychological projection.
Hate Obama? He’s obviously the Anti-Christ! Hate Catholics? The pope is the Anti-Christ! Hate Communists? They are Gog! Hate Muslims? They are Magog! It’s in the Bible!
It seems to me that Christians hold the most least understood book of all religious groups.
That right there should be proof that it’s of God, written to a fallen race of people, and to those who have escaped sin, and hope to live forever in his perfect kingdom.
Ray,
>>It seems to me that Christians hold the most least understood book of all religious groups.
Why does this seem that way to you?
The Bible is arguably the most translated, documented, studied and preached-on books of all times. Every week literally THOUSANDS of pastors tell use things we should understand about the bible.
Are you suggesting God somehow wants us to misunderstand the book?
Thanks for the response Greg.
“Sheesh! I’m not “demonizing” anybody. Do you really need to escalate the debate like that?”
I will let others judge as to if I was escalating or de-escalating the debate by asking you not to judge a substantial Biblical position based on the guesswork of some who hold to that position. Judge it by the Word of God, not the word of men.
“Would you care to address my point?”
I did address your point by agreeing that some engage in guesswork, not all. And in your response you only reinforced my point by setting up more straw men against the pre-millenial understanding of Scripture by lumping all pre-millenials into the same group of Obama Anti-Christers.
All I am trying to point out is that your stated reason for rejecting a literal reign of Christ on Earth is lacking since it is based on the guesswork of fallible man (extra-biblical).
“At some point, I have to wonder if per-millinalism is a religious vehicle for psychological projection.”
Demonstrate that pre-millenials are wrong Biblically and sure, you might be onto something. But until you do that, you have no foundation for Biblically rejecting the pre-millenial position.
Missed the show, caught the archive…
I spent a while the last year looking at this, and put a small book out with my findings… What I found was that ultimately the translation of Matthew 24:29 “immediately” is subject.. “eutheos de meta”, immediately but after, would better be straight way or next, but after, … Compare to the John 6:21 immediate boat ride or the Mark 1 immediately on the Sabbath preaching… Neither of these is “immediate”, the word means straight. So, Mt24:29 breaks down into separate events immediately. ,v4-22 or so, the 70 ad events. V29 establishes the sequence, not the timing.. The second coming must come second. Finally, v34&36 says, roughly, the vv1-3 events wjkl.happen in one generation… V6 but the v29-31 events no one knows the hour. This means, to me, that the implied gap of eutheos in various v28 can be used 2000 years. Daniel 12 can be similarly understood, that the Dan 1140-44 events, all but the last verse, are the battle of actium, the start of Rome, 31BC.
All this would out the Mt24 trib in 70 ad while the Mt24:29-31 second coming is future.. But it also separates the second coming and the trib..
Consider, I could demonstrate through well known and verifiable sources, after only a year of study, that at least probably 80% of Rev 6-20:7 have justifiable historic fulfillments… This includes a literal, historically fulfilled millennium, as attested to by Foxxes book of martyrs, saying persecution stopped for 1,000 years from the time.of Constantine. Thjs was the time of the rock becoming a mountain… Rev 6 only says the dragon is bound.. The demons were there, but without the ringleader to coordinate.
So, you’re left with the promises of Israel and all the expectations of the millennium.. Well, what I read at the end of Ezekiel 39.says Israel must receive the spirit, be born again as a whole, after the gog magog conflict. I call my view “extra millennial”, that extra millennium between Revelation 20:10-11, after the Gog/Magog, how long is it? If its the same as Ezekiel 38&39, at least 7 years, but it could be 1,000 or more, because the second coming is unknown.
The problem.i find is the connections if all the millennium type texts do not necessitate they be fulfilled in rev 20:1-6, but Rev 20:10-11 works fine. Plenty of time for the law to go forth from.zion, with Jerusalem as head, and, yes, it means Satan has already come.and from the pit, being released for his short time some.where around the renaissance.. Which, is a secular term meaning rebirth.. A rebirth of a dragon, perhaps?
Anyway, so, your question about what to hope for… We hope for Hid coming.. The promises to be fulfilled should line up with the final destruction of the dragon in the pit, and, get this… 1 Cor 15 says Christ must stay on his throne until the last enemy is defeated, death (after the dragon). It appears to me that this is soundly done in Rev 20:11-14, she it and hell are thrown into fire. And, what happens then? Jesus comes jn his white throne of glory, right on schedule, to hand the kingdom back to the father at his second coming, not to sit In it, because he already does, which isn’t too hard to prove.. Heb 10+1 Cor 15
That leaves Domitian as the beast back from the pit, which fits extremely well, Rome as Babylon, the bowls.poured out in the “Crisis of the third Century”, and the plague of Cyprian tk start that off as bowl #1… The winepress of his wrath is the fall of betar in 135ad, making the 144,000 be the “first fruits” church, the first generation if believers.. How could rev 14 “first fruits” be understood differently?
But,the key is, to me, Mat 24:29, eutheos…. It does not mean “immediately”, which implies “no middle”, but “straight”, as I. “straightway” or “directly”. Perhaps its a stretch, but since v36 says the hour is nit known, even by the Son, I.thi it fits well.
Things hit.the cutting room.floor fast, though, as the notion of antichrist is suddenly vacant. (except.in spirit), the great falling away most likely referred to 70 ad (although we face a new one), etc… The issue is, it all fits the text a whole lot. I debated it some with Don K Preston a month ago, but he didn’t like my “eutheos” claim, and resorted to his normal full-preterist defenses after a few rounds…
My real problem began with “Kingdom”, since Mark 1:15,.in light of who Jesus was, having written the OT prophecies, could have meant nothing other than the Daniel 2:44 Kingdom when He said it was here. The time was fulfilled, it was here. The best proof is Daniel 2:35, all four are broken together. Since Daniel identified Neb as “the head of gold”, v38, and since we see nothing of the first three kingdoms anymore, we must conclude that whatever wiped out the outward glory of those also wiped out the fourth, and was the Kingdom, simply ‘sola scriptura’. Since this was the church, we know the Kingdom is here (duh?).
But, further, a revived Roman.empire can never do. You must destroy all four at the same time, and Neb must be the head. Only a revived all four, and a resurrected Neb can fulfill. Since Neb’s Babylon is gone, Daniel 2:44’s rock can be the only culprit, and so only historic fulfills the text.
so, if Dan 7 parallels it, it is fulfilled as well. If Dan 11:40-44 is really 31 BC, the start of Rome, and Dan 8 can be seen as historic completely in antiochus, it leaves really only the four verses of Daniel 9:24-27… V27 only, really…
which then ultimately leads us to Matthew 24 and Revelation.. But, since the whole thing starts and ends on Kingdom, that’s the basis… They say the OT writers did nit expect a spiritual kingdom. You’re right they didn’t, and this is what Paul testified to, that it couldn’t enter their minds what God had prepared… Come, the millennium..
I derive my understanding of Kingdom from places like Ps 145:13, yours is an everlasting Kingdom. It was prepared before the foundation of the earth for us. It was given to David, so four times it says Davis.sat on the Lords throne, or in the Lords kingdom, meaning spiritual David sat on the throne of God like Jesus is now, so Jesus is on David’s throne. It was taken away, saying “Ruin! Ruin! Ruin!”, until he to whom it belonged came, Jesus.. And, hence, the question in Acts 1:6, notice the word “restore”, meaning to put back what once was there.. Are you at this time.going to restore.the Kingdom to Israel? The kingdom to the nation, as opposed to just the twelve. No, that apparently comes at Ezekiel 38&39, Rev 20:7-11, via the last verses of Ez39…
But, the 1,000 years? Yes, certain people would reign with Christ for that period, but the Kingdom doesn’t go away. Hebrews 8 or 10 says He must remain there, on the fathers throne, until death is defeated, and then return to give the kingdom.back to God.
But, the whole thing is Kingdom. Zechariah says he will be a priest and king upon His throne. Hebrews says that He is a priest now, but if he was on Earth, he would not be a priest, not being a Levite. But, in order to be both priest and king at the same.time, he must be king in heaven, and will not ever sit on a wooden bench upon the Earth, and the fact that this was not expected goes hand in hand with the scripture, if they had known, they would not have crucified the King of Glory… The very fact that it was hidden was part of the plan, to reveal and conceal.. That which was not made known to men in prior generations has been revealed to us, through the apostles and prophets, aka, in this case, Paul..
so, the millennium will be just that.. People will reign with Christ for those 1,000 years, and then Christ will.continue to reign.. And, oh, He was reigning before those 1,000 years probably too..
And, the promises to Israel? They were just off by about 5 verses.. Not Rev 20:1-6, but 10-11…
Leaving me in possession of a Kingdom, Luke 22:29, the responsibility to use its keys and take the kind of dominion Jesus did through humility and meekness, and looking forward to our Blesses Hope…
oh, and there’s a war about to happen, it will.cause 2/3rds of Israel to die, the last third will pass through the fire, and, even as WWII led to the regathering of Israel, the dry bones.being regsthered Into a body, but still.dead… The holocaust about to come to the Jews, and the accompanying prophetic move of.God, Ezekiel’s “prophecy again”, will result in God no longer hiding his face from them… They wil, as a nation, after that coming horror, receive Jesus as their Messiah, become.born again, and receive the outpouring of the Spirit, the greatest revival.the world.has ever known, life from the dead, as Paul put it….
and, for seven years, they will burn their weapons, and then, perhaps even the creation itself may get liberated from its bondage to decay… And, Jerusalem will be the head church, a light to all peoples.. Not sure what Tabrnacles represents there in Zech 14, but it could be literal, or it could be symbilic…
And, the final.act of history comes in Rev 20:11-14, the great white throne, the second coming, the throne of his glory, in the glory of the Father, with the shout of the archangel, and the sound of a.trumpet… Everything is consumed, we are all judged, and so we begin a new..