What should we make of the Pope’s call for unity broadcast at a Kenneth Copeland meeting? Is the “glory cloud” at Bethel Church in Redding, CA real? Does 2 Corinthians 8:9 teach that Jesus became poor so we could become rich? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Come on! This is your hour; forget about tomorrow, you’re alive today! What are you going do with this day for the glory of God?!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The Word of God says and I want to remind you, “Don’t be weary in doing well, you will reap a harvest if you don’t give up.” So don’t give up!
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I thought Dr. Brown did a good job answering the question about the Bethel “glory cloud.”
I take a benign view of such experiences — weeping statues, rooms full of steam, holy numbers, glitter clouds… even the face of Jesus in a tortilla. If these are meaningful to the believer, who am I to question it?
It’s only becomes a problem if the believer expects this to prove something beyond their personal, subjective experience.
As for me… I sense the presence of God where ever there is love, joy, patience, forgiveness, grace, healing, generosity, reconciliation, etc.
Anyone out there read Petrus Romanus? Chris Putnam would be a good guest on a radio program to talk about this pope.
jon,
I Googled Chris Putnam — he seems like just another alarmist profiting from paranoia and fear.
I’d much rather Dr. Brown host a mainstream, objective expert on the Vatican and the pope.
I’m curious — have any of you had an experience like Dr. Browns room full of smoke? Or the Bethel “glitter cloud”?
I would like to hear your story.
I’ve often sensed the presence of God but never anything so obvious. For me, it happens more internally than externally. Sometimes I have felt like a group worship or fellowship experience as unusually Spirit-filled.
(And, I promise that I won’t doubt your experience — I mean it when I say that I respect other people’s personal religious experiences.)
Reading Proverbs 8 in my KJV, I see no way that I could interpret that as “Jesus being created” by God, rather I certainly may read it taking notice of how wisdom had always been with God, and before he made anything, it was dwelling with him,
and that anytime God wanted to bring wisdom to the front, or bring it forward, to make it known, show it, and manifest it, or reveal that which was hidden in him from the eyes of anyone else, he could certainly do so, and I believe he has done so many times in the past, and will also do it again and again in the future.
And I can’t help but consider how wisdom reminds me of Jesus, and also how I could look at this section of scripture as prophecy concerning Christ, just as much as other scriptures I read of David’s life and some things he said about himself that speak of the things of Christ, the way he is, and some of the things he did.
Just as there were things about David’s life that fit Christ, so also I notice things in Proverbs 8 that also fit Christ also.
To me there is so much in Proverbs 8 that speaks of Christ.
Correction: one too many “also”‘s in the 2nd to the last line above.
Ray,
Certainly, Christ was wise, so he fits Proverbs 8 nicely.
But, it doesn’t strike me as a prophetic passage.
More likely, a personification of wisdom, as a literary tool
Greg, I have experienced the Holy spirit- But not in a way as was talked about on the program. It was a real experience, and I would also not make an assumption of judgement against Bethel either. We are in the time that we will indeed see much more than can be seen at this moment. Things are happening in Africa and the middle east.
Re Chris Putman- your assessment was not accurate at all. Below is his biography.
Cris D. Putnam has a diverse range of interests and life experiences. After earning a music scholarship and studying classical guitar he performed in various venues, with musical theater ensembles and taught lessons. After living the lifestyle of a starving artist he changed focus to the computer industry and worked for a major technology company implementing encryption protocols and login tools. In his late thirties he came to the end of himself and turned his life over to Jesus Christ. Since then his interest in the Bible and theology has driven him to serious study. He earned a Master of Arts Degree in Theological Studies from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in 2011 in addition to his Bachelor of Science in religion and mathematics. As well as his involvement in book projects he is now pursuing post-graduate studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is a member of Providence Baptist Church where he performs regularly with the praise band; he is a member of the International Society of Christian Apologetics, the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Tau Sigma National Honor Society. His website is http://www.LogosApologia.org. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know. That calling is two-fold:
Apologetics (definition):
1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.
Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyon
Jon,
My opinion of Greg Putman was an initial impression rather than any sort of judgment. I just did a quick search.
Do you seriously believe in the prophesies of St. Malachy? He reminds me of Nostradamus. You can read into him, whatever you want.
I can’t imagine any serious scholar taking that stuff seriously.
As for the pope, it’s too early to tell, but Francis could be a very significant figure. He seems like he could make the Catholic church relevant again.
But the last pope? Very, very unlikely.
jon,
May I ask what your experience of the Holy Spirit was? Was if visual or auditory?
I’m really interested in that kind of thing.
I have had lots of experiences feeling the Holy Spirit but it was mostly internal and not very flashy.
Baruch HaShem:
Everyone seems to have a “Title” degree from some religious institution. Mostly what is taught is the doctrine’s of men. Seminaries teach their own misinterpretation’s to students who intend on perpetuating these doctrine’s to their perspective denominations! I been ministering for over twenty years and I have witnessed a haze in the room an atmosphere / presence produced by the Ruach HaKodesh / Holy Spirit. It is not due to my righteousness but His Holy desire to touch, deliver, heal, comfort and restore His children for His Glory!! Whenever we seek to claim these movements by the LORD as some related to our righteousness the presence is quickly lifted as He will not allow man to get the glory for His work! That is what I believed happened at the Brownville revival in Pensacola, fl. Once the Assembly of God denomination tried to assert that it was because of them that the LORD was moving well He did Just that “He Left”!!!!
May I ask what your experience of the Holy Spirit was? Was if visual or auditory?
It was neither. It was a confirmation of having the thought process on receiving the Holy spirit before arriving to the church program not knowing before hand what the night was all about. The person speaking led out- and with eyes closed at the end of the program could feel a power- like a wave- closeness. I have always been a person not outwardly emotional- or touchy feel kind of person,. For me to experience this was special and definitely made a believer in the power of the spirit. The communication (ein sof) is the power of prayer. Another example recently in praying for the provisions for this ministry that communication was strongly given to know that God is going to pour out in abundance to this and other like ministries- to have complete trust that is is so. The communication is strong with so many of the strongest of faith praying to God in one.
jon,
I think I understand what you are saying.
When you use a phrase like “strongly given to know” it seems like what we, in my church tradition, might call “conviction in the Spirit.”
This “conviction in the Spirit” is practically required before starting any new ministry, taking a pastoral position, or even things like dating and, certainly, marriage.
tV,
>> Seminaries teach their own misinterpretation’s to students who intend on perpetuating these doctrine’s to their perspective denominations!
No offense but your attitude strikes me as judgmental, bordering on smug.
Take Dr. Browns Fire School of Ministry. While I know virtually nothing about it, I would still affirm it as a ministry.
Bible schools and seminaries are a way to expose (mostly) young people to the wisdom and understanding of (mostly) older, more mature and learned Christians.
Some variation on this has existed for virtually the whole history of Christianity.
I don’t know you — and I am not accusing you of anything — but I have noticed that the people who criticize bible schools/seminaries tend to be “lone maverick” Christians who have a problem with authority rather than any specific doctrinal objections.
Dr. Brown you are one of my heros and I have very few. Fight, fight, fight the “Good Fight.” He calls you “Faithful.” Great are your rewards. Press on!
We love you!
There’s a tendency for men to love their doctrines more than the truth itself, even more than life itself, though I don’t think many would actually die for them, yet they act as though they might.
Ray,
>> There’s a tendency for men to love their doctrines more than the truth itself,
Why are you making the distinction between doctrines and truth?
“Jesus is the Son of God” is a doctrine. “God is the creator.” is a doctrine.
Heck, something as simple as “God is good.” is a doctrine.
I will go this far with you, though: I think most churches have more doctrines, more tightly defined, than can surely be rationalized from the bible.
The bible is not a list of doctrines — it is a collection of stories, poems, proverbs, prophesies, laws, etc.
Yes, we can create sound doctrine from those things but, sometimes, our books of doctrines start to be as long as the bible!
As for dying for our doctrines — I recommend “Myth of Persecution” by Candida Moss.
This is one of the best books I’ve read on what persecution and martyrdom means to being Christian.
The initial reaction, by Christians, was a mis-reading of the title. And, most never read the book.
Moss does not argue that martyrdom and persecution never happened. (She does argue that very many of the stories should be read as apocryphal moral lessons rather than verified history.)
Where I found the book valuable is to answer the head scratcher — “Why do Christians feel so persecuted?” Even if they are the ones in power, sometimes doing the oppression?
I hear a lot of this “persecution complex” on Dr. Brown’s show.
I think it goes back to your question — why are people willing to die for their doctrines? Moss would argue that the Church’s own historical narrative has given us that mentality.
Sheri,
>> Fight, fight, fight
There must be scores of metaphors for living the Godly life in the bible.
Can we give the “fight” metaphor a break?
More fighting is the last thing America needs.
Thanks, Sheri!
Greg Allen,
I usually ignore your posts and comments. But, I’m sure you will ignore mine when I ask you to give us all “Break.”
Also, It will be in vain for you to try to bait me into a debate.
Thanks.
Sheri,
I’m not trying to bait you into a debate! Sheesh!
I raised a serious issue.
One could write a thick book on all the biblical metaphors for the Godly Christian life.
Yet, Americans consistently focus on “fight” and “spiritual warfare” and “the armor of God.”
Fight! Fight! Fight!
I’m convinced this is because the American church reflects fight-loving American culture.
To Dr. Brown, I say,
“Be a gentle shepherd!” “Be a healing physician!” “Be salt!” “Be light!” “Be sweet water!” “Be a servant!” “Be a friend!” “Be an athlete.”
There are so many.
It’s high time we give the violent metaphors a breather.
PS: Obviously, I don’t know if you are American. But the issue I raise is more than about just you.
The metaphors we use reveal a lot about us.
And the fact that Americans so strongly gravitate to the “fight” metaphor says a lot about us.