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Regarding the “hyper-grace” error that Dr. Brown mentioned on today’s show:
I feel like I’m the Baby Bear of Grace. I’m not “hyper-grace” and I’m not “hypo-grace”. I’m “just right grace.”
More precisely, I’m “God’s grace”.
The error is not too much or too little grace. The error is people who speak for God about grace.
This is the error of the Pharisees.
The Pharisees of the bible couldn’t accept that God’s grace could go to collectors and “sinners.”
Today’s Pharisees can’t accept that God’s grace can go to gays and pro-choice people.
Oops:
The Pharisees of the bible couldn’t accept that God’s grace could go to _tax_ collectors and “sinners.”
Today’s Pharisees can’t accept that God’s grace can go to gays and pro-choice people.
No one is saying that and you know it. His grace covers all sin, but we must admit our sin as such. The gay and pro choice movements do not identify what they support as sin. They believe it to be good when scripture says quite the opposite. It’s so clear, Greg. Open your eyes.
Greg, I know that God’s grace is extended to practicing homosexuals, for I have heard them speak in tongues and prophecy, but that doesn’t mean that what they practice sexually is right.
I don’t believe this makes me a Pharisee by saying so.
When it comes to human suffering, I don’t think Satan’s appetite is ever fully satisfied.
Ray,
Interesting answer… and it kind of surprised me. Are tongues and prophesy your main (only?) indicator of God’s grace in someones life?
As a non-Pentecostal, I don’t think that way and I guess I forget that some people do.
For me, the main indication of grace in a person’s life is the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians is the short list — from the Old Testament, for example, I would add “justice.”
As it relates to the gays — I have meet many gay Christians who seem as filled with love, joy, peace, patience, etc. as the best of any other Christians.
Ray,
I didn’t not mean to personally accuse you of having the sin of the Parisees. I don’t know you.
But what was the sin of the Pharisees? In my reading of the Bible, it was withholding God’s grace.
(I should put “withholding” in quotes because, obviously, it was not theirs to withhold.)
The Pharisees were absolutely convinced that tax-collectors and sinners were outside of the grace of God.
That is not their call to make!
And, I strongly believe, it is not _my_ call to decide whether gays are outside the grace of God.
From prayer, the bible and history, it is my personal opinion that gay marriage can honor God, but — I emphasize — this is NOT my judgment to make for others. People have to study the bible andpray for themselves. (I usually add, seek the advise of the wise.)
On his show, Dr. Brown made basically the same argument twice, recently — once regarding women rteaching in the church and the other regarding divorce. Two things clearly banned in the bible.
I commend him in his graceful attitude on these issues.
But he then withholds the same grace to gay Christians.
This strikes me as the same sin as the Pharisees.
Josh,
God bless you, but you give me nothing to respond to.
I believe my eyes are open. I have prayed and studied the bible and history, extensively, for many years, on this issue.
First, the bible is virtually silent on abortion.
Second, the bible is condemning pederasty and temple prostitution, not modern gay marriage.
Greg,
1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Your assessment is once again scripturally ignorant or purposeful misrepresentation for the sake of your homosexual agenda. Modern homosexual marriage is worse than pederasty and temple prostitution since it is leaven that is leavening the church. It is the very commitment to sinning that Paul says will ruin ones chances of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Some of the Corinthians were homosexuals before their conversion, but they had repented. The word Paul uses literally means “male bedders”…coitus with another man. It is an all inclusive word for any homosexual action and the correct definition has been well attested to by all scholars until quite recently when bad scholarship has proposed ideas that attempt to justify sin. Paul’s use of “αρσενοκοιτης” is the compound word for the same concept that Moses used in Leviticus 20:13 to describe all male homosexual acts. (The Hebrew words are rendered in the Greek Septuagint as “αρσενος κοιτην”.) Marriage, according to Messiah, Moses, and every author or scripture is always between a man and a woman according to YHWH’s creation and plan. Any other conception of a committed loving sexual relationship is sin.
1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Matthew 18
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
According to Messiah and Paul it is right to “withhold grace” from those that call themselves believers but will not repent when confronted by the church. It is not categorically wrong to treat someone as a tax gatherer/publican and a heathen when they deserve such treatment according to Messiah. Those that call themselves brothers who refuse to forsake sinful lifestyles, like homosexuality and adultery and covetousness are to treated as unclean.
Greg, your stance is helping people to feel good and comfortable in their sinful lifestyles and preventing them from repenting. This will help them to lose their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. You care more about feelings than facts. That is not real grace, but a deceitful counterfeit.
Greg, what kind of grace are you speaking of?
Wouldn’t ordaining active homosexuals (those who practice sexual acts with someone who is of the same sex) or active adulterers, be like hiring an active embezzler as an accountant, or a sexual pedophile as a Sunday school teacher?
What kind of grace should the Church extend to unrepentant sinners?
Should it allow any kind of speech that promotes sexual corruption, refusing to speak up against it, or to silence it?
Should the Church let it have free reign as if it is king and lord over all else?
Should a gay agenda have dominion over the word of God?
What kind of grace are you speaking of in particular?