Who Is Saved and Who Is Damned?

1. Dr. Brown, I hope you have a moment to answer something I have been wondering about , but if not, I understand. Maybe someone else can help. I know the article about being careful who you damn to hell as well as the show today is about saying those things within the Body and about other ministers, etc. However, I have been puzzled lately when I hear people quote the Bible in a sincere way about those that are living in willful unrepentant sin.I have sometimes heard them say “I am not damning or condemning anyone to hell but this is what the Scripture says about blah blah blah” or “I’m not their judge, but the Bible says that if they do so and so they will go to hell”. I have heard it many times recently and I don’t understand. Because to me, (and I mean that it would be in a loving way and not a self-righteous manner) if you are living in sin,just for instance, a practicing homosexual or a person who says they are a Christian but are fornicating, and I am trying to show you what the Bible says, and I believe the Bible, then YES, I am saying that you are going to hell, because that is what the Bible says! Maybe I am missing something and I really want to understand if I am wrong, but it has been frustrating me. Plus I hope I was able to articulate what I wanted to ask well enough. Thanks so much.

2. Grace, if someone denies and rejects Jesus the eternal Son and Lord, they are going to hell, and they can reject Him by unbelief and they can reject Him by lifestyle (continual unrepentant sin). 2 Timothy 2:19! Matthew 7:21!

3. True! So then it’s not wrong of me to say that they are going to hell, when all I am doing is quoting the Scripture that says they are. I know there are lots of other examples of this, but even most recently with Phil Robertson, where he said after he made the comments about homosexuality, “We never, ever judge someone on who’s going to heaven, hell. That’s the Almighty’s job.” I feel like, I am not the one condemning you to hell for these things. God is, in His Word. I am just sharing what He says. Thanks again for your time!

4. I consider myself a messianic jew, (Jewish on my mom’s side, Filipino on my dad’s).

   Now, upon reflecting over the arguements that christians do not have to follow the Torah, (however must be spiritual, not carnal), I have come to the conclusion that one does not need to, for example, keep the dietary laws, or wear tzitzits. I still keep Torah, to a certain extent of course, but I don’t believe in imposing it on others, sharing it sure, but recently a group (online) I was part of suddenly revealed itself to be … Torah Observant Legalistic… For example, if you ate pork, you would be considered unrighteous… And we know where the unrighteous go. They shall not inherit the kingdom.

   So after the topic was raised, “what makes one righteous”, I came to the conclusion that a pork eating, Sabbath working, non-tzitzit wearing, Christian can certainly be righteous, walking according to the Spirit (see Gal 5:16-26). He can certainly love God and do the deeds of faith. He isn’t damned for not adhering to all the laws given to Israel.

   What a coincidence. The issue from the Torah group came up today, and so did Dr. Brown’s topic, who is saved, who is damned.

   Well those were my two cents, Shalom.

   (if anyone has any good information on why Torah is not mandatory for NT believers, it would be appreciated, I’m convinced that Torah is not mandatory for Christians, but there are still arguements from some, which are challenging to adress)

5. I’ll know that Dr. Brown is serious about church unity when he stops using that damning phrase “so-called gay Christians” and starts accepting that Christians of good faith can honestly disagree on the issue.

6. Grace,

   If I may interject as well… To declare that someone is going to hell for unrepentant sin may be conclusively correct, but may I suggest that one approach this in a manner from which Scripture speaks of as pertaining to those qualified recipients. The N.T. language identifying judgment towards the unrepentant sinner – regardless of what they call themselves – is, “the wrath of G-d.” This is conveyed as the supreme object of judgment – and not hell, in and of itself; although, that may prove to be the ultimate destination of that soul. Keep in mind, hell is the expression of G-d’s wrath towards those who do not know Him, and of those who refuse to obey. Please note the following:

   For the WRATH of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness… who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them (Romans 1:18, 32).

   For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the WRATH of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them (Ephesians 5:5-7).

   But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself WRATH in the day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and WRATH (Romans 2:5-8).

   So, ultimate judgment is left to G-d alone, and those who practice sin, thus identifying a lifestyle opposed to the righteousness of G-d will suffer His wrath. This would be in keeping with the apostolic language and, in my opinion, would be best conveyed as opposed to saying that he/she is going to hell. Again, I’m not saying that it is wrong in and of itself, but it would be best to use the language as revealed in Scripture.

7. Greg,

   Just because someone is honest and really believes that he can live a homosexual lifestyle and be a Christian does not mean that we are to have fellowship with him. There is no use in being in unity with leaven. It ruins the rest of the dough.

   The Bible declares homosexual acts to be sin. A lifestyle of such forfeits ones inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. So those that practice homosexuality are so-called gay Christians. And those that practice adultery are so-called adulterous Christians. And there are so-called extortionist Christians and so-called fornicating Christians. ETC. And until they repent of their lifestyles, they on the wrong road headed toward a very hot place.

   There is no such thing as unity in the Body of Messiah with unrepentant so-called believers. They are to be excommunicated. So believers that are practicing homosex and other kinds of fornication are not in unity with the Body of Messiah but are amputated members, rapidly losing their life blood and beginning to rot. To keep such a member attached to the body is to let gangrene set in.

   You can accept this truth or continue to rot.

8. Dear Dr. Brown,

   One of your latest articles “Be careful whom you damn” attests as to how narrow-minded believers can become.

   On the other hand we praise God for the wisdom, boldness and courage God has bestowed upon you to address these issues with humility and candor.

   May the Light of Messiah Yeshua continue to shine through you and your ministry.

   In Yeshua’s Holy Name.

   Bijoy.

9. I was on a jury sex assault case today. I was the last person to be dismissed before seating the jury. The case really opened up so much hurt in at least half of the court room. Ironically during the breaks i was reading a queer thing happened to America. It broke my heart to hear of all the potential jurors that have had so much injury on this issue. Although I was sent home in the end, I did pray for the victims, and even the defendant. I left knowing that Michael Brown has the message of healing on this issue. The answers were in the kindle with the writing of the book. It is time we stop this insanity of covering up the injury that we are doing to our children, and women in our society. We need spiritual healing in our country.. Our courts are full of tragic horrific damage to our most vulnerable. G_d may you come quickly and change this strange way of life that we see as the normal.

10. I believe many people are on their way to hell, and if they do not turn around, they just might make it all the way there.

11. Bo, in regards to what you tell Greg in post 6, isn’t this like the strange wives the children of Israel were to put away at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah?

12. Bo,

    Thanks for the reply.

    Do you understand how hurtful for Dr. Brown to plead for grace, for himself, not extend that same grace to people like me?

    And, just to be clear, I am denied that grace simply for not _believing_ as Dr. Brown does. I am not personally gay nor have I ever been.

    There are about three verses in the New Testament on this subject. This is a secondary issue, if there ever was one.

13. jon,

    I have forgotten about that part of the book. (it’s a long book!)

    Does Dr. Brown think that anti-gay people should be allowed to sit on the trials of gay people?

    Of course they shouldn’t.

    As a parallel, should a anti-Semite be allowed to sit on the jury of a Jew? Of course not. I’m sorry if it hurts the feelings of the anti-Semite or anti-Gay prospective juror. But, a fair trial is more important than their feelings.

    If ones thinks a person is guilty just for being who they are then they are clearly not suited for jury duty.

14. Despite the fact that Dr. Brown denies me the grace he pleads for himself, I really like what he is saying about Christian unity.

    I am old enough that I remember when people would use the phrase “so-called Pentacostal Christians” or “so-callled Catholic Christians.” I haven’t heard that in years.

    Despite all the divisive words that Dr. Brown gets on his various web sites, I hear a lot less divisive language in the churches I visit than I used to.

    Sadly, the conservative vs liberal divide in the US is also mirrored in our churches and that seems to be getting worse rather than better. If I were to name a single heresy of the American Church, I would say it is our mixing of politics and Christianity.

    But, denominational and doctrinal divides seem a little better.

15. Bo,

    Man, I mangled that first line! I’ll try it again. I guess my coffee has not kicked-in yet.

    Do you understand how hurtful it is for Dr. Brown to plead for grace, for himself, but not extend that same grace to people like me?

16. Greg, The book is not anti gay at all- and that term anti gay is not even a correct term.

    What I was for in that jury is all the hurt that was in the room. The man next to me his sister molested by a principal at age 12. A man had a roommate molested as a boy, and the man committed suicide after college. The young woman who found out that her mother had been raped at 16. The other woman whose mother had been molested by her own father.
    I am anti sexual assault, I am anti sin in our lives. If you interpret that as anti gay, then your own definition has this activity as a sin.

17. Greg,

    You wrote:
    “Do you understand how hurtful it is for Dr. Brown to plead for grace, for himself, but not extend that same grace to people like me?”

    Yes, I have been on the receiving end of Dr. Brown.

    No, I cannot know how hurtful it is to you.

    How hurtful it is does not matter. Whether or not he is speaking the truth to us does. Maybe it is time to examine your heart when it is hurt. The wounds of a friend are faithful.

    Dr. Brown, and every other believer, must call what he thinks is sin, a sin. Any knowingly unrepented of sin does not get grace from YHWH, nor should it from us. It is leaven that leavens the whole lump. The number of times that a given sin is mentioned in the Bible does not relate to how grave it is. The absoluteness of the statements against it do. Homosex is absolutely condemned, as is other forms of fornication and adultery and covetousness and idolatry and blasphemy. We need no more than one statement to the effect that something is forbidden to be properly notified. (Enter Adam and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.) No means no.

    Rebellion against the plain statements of scripture concerning homosex gets no grace. Repentance from homosex does. If you want grace from Dr. Brown, repent of promoting homosex as good.

18. Dr. Brown,
    Do you think it might be worthwhile to look at this subject from a slightly different perspective? Seeing as this subject will often look at leadership of a church, could you look at the qualifications for overseers and deacons?

19. If a man will plead for homosexuality to be accepted as if it is not sin, or that sinners should have the same entrance into heaven as the repentant who have left off the wrong doing, though he may be in the scriptures a lot, going over a lot of verses, has he come to the Word? Has he found the Word? Is he really in the Word?

20. I don’t think it’s our place to dam anyone to hell for any reason. We can’t see inside another’s heart or know what God is working in them. Jesus accepts us right where we are and so we should do the same. The Holy Spirit is able to change a person from the inside where change is required. Scripture that warns us of the consequence of our sins is for our internalization. It is not a license for accusation. Woe to him who calls evil good and to him who calls good evil. Instead we are called to love the LORD with all of our heart mind and soul and to love each other.

21. Greg, “gay Christian” is about the same as “Christian stripper” or a “Christian hitman”. These phrases include mutually exclusive definitions.
    Sorry…

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