An Interview with a Pastor Who Affirms Same-Sex “Marriage”; Thoughts on “Gay Christianity”; and Four Hyper-Grace Fallacies

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Dr. Brown interviews Methodist pastor Frank Schaefer (not Frankie Schaefer) who was defrocked for performing the homosexual “marriage” of his son, then he shares some insights about “gay Christianity” and talks about his latest article on “Four Hyper-Grace Fallacies.” Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Deception is very deceiving!  Will we allow circumstances or relationships to trump the Word when we’re in trouble?

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Regardless of our feelings, regardless of our desires, God’s Word remains eternally unchanged!

 

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Other Resources:

Dr. Brown and Frank Turek Interact with Gay Activist Mitchell Gold

Dr. Brown Interviews One of the “Preachers from L.A.” and a Gay Activist from Charlotte

Dr. Brown Debates Homosexuality with Prof. John Corvino and Then Discusses Mean-Spirited Communication in the Body (and More)

203 Comments
  1. I think we should also address the different situation Jesus is talking about.

    Jesus is saying that if you divorce for any reason other that sexual impurity (fornication), that your divorce is invalid. And if your divorce is invalid than you committ adulter if you marry another or your divorced spouse marries another since in essence, you are still married. This committing adultery.

  2. Benjamin,

    You should not accuse me of conceding when I say I didn’t.

    No, you have not proven that fornication is the cause of adultery. That is a preposterous definition that does not square with all the facts or with the individual contexts.

    If it is clear that Messiah as actually saying adultery when He said fornication, why did not Paul, Mark or Luke include such a statement…but only Matthew who was writing to the Jews.

    Fornication can be used as a general reference for all sexual sin. It can be specifically used to indicate unmarried sexual sin. It can be used used to differentiate from adultery.

    Galatians 5
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    In general, uncleanness can include fornication and adultery. In general, fornication can include Adultery. Adultery does not include all fornication. Fornication does not include all uncleanness.

    Shalom

  3. Galatians 5 further proves my point that the two should be included back to back since if you only included adultery, than unmarried folks would have free license to fornicate(unlawful sex).

    I know you specifically did not say that you concede, so but your statements seemed to indicate a concession. But I will rescind that statement.

  4. Benjamin,

    I agree that Galatians should have both words in the list. Because fornication and adultery are different. It does not prove that fornication is the cause of adultery.

    Shalom

  5. Benjamin,

    Please reread my posts above and answer the direct questions so that we can be clear on what is being said.

    Shalom

  6. Benjamin,

    The Torah stipulates that a woman cannot ever be divorced if the man has lain with her before they married. (Deut. 22:29) It says the same thing about a woman that was a virgin when she was married. (Deut. 22:19) The only kind of woman left is one that was not a virgin at marriage, but the husband was not the one that humbled her. (Deut. 22:21) This is where Deuteronomy 24 comes in. This is what the Pharisees were asking Messiah to explain. They knew that there was no divorce allowed for proven adultery. Deuteronomy 22 was clear in their eyes. Deuteronomy 24 was a contested passage among the different rabbinical schools.

    Some of the Pharisees wanted Deuteronomy 24 to allow divorce for any cause, so they interpreted the word “uncleanness” to mean anything that they did not like. They interpreted it to mean after consummation had taken place so that a divorce could take place years into the marriage. To do otherwise would leave them with only one way to get out of the marriage…the death of the spouse, either by natural causes or by execution. They did not like the former because of the possible lifetime of suffering nor the later for the disdain that they would endure.

    Deuteronomy 24 can seem to be in opposition to Deuteronomy 22. How can it be that the judgment in 22:21, that calls for her death, and the allowance in 24:1 be reconciled if the case is exactly the same? They cannot. The cases are almost the same. The difference is that the man in chapter 22 has gone in unto her and the man in chapter 24 has not.

    De 22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

    De 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

    It might not be apparent at first glance that the two cases are virtually the same with the one important difference. In chapter 22 the man hates his wife and wants out of the marriage. In chapter 24 the woman finds no favor in his eyes and he wants out. No real difference. In 22 she was defiled before her marriage. In 24 he finds uncleanness in her. What is the uncleanness? When does he find it? Can he find it years after the fact and then divorce her?

    The word uncleanness is the same as the word used in Leviticus 18 that is translated nakedness which is used to describe fornication with a relative (incest). Later in scripture, it denotes shame because of sexual sin and is used figuratively to mean spiritual harlotry.

    So the man finds uncleanness/defilement in his new bride in Deuteronomy 24 just as he did in chapter 22. What does he do? He has two choices. He can go in unto her or he can give her a certificate of divorce. If he goes in unto her, the only way out of the marriage is via the method described in Deuteronomy 22. So, if he waits until after consummation he may not divorce her. He must divorce her the day he marries her and finds out that she is defiled.

    Why the day that he finds out? A husband can only release his wife from a vow on the day he hears it according to Numbers 30. The day those vows are spoken at the wedding is the only day that they can be annulled by him.

    Messiah is asked to explain what Deuteronomy 24 means. He says that man may not separate what YHWH has joined together…no exceptions. (See also Mk. 10:4-12; Lk. 16:18; 1 Co. 7:10-11) This happens via covenant/vows and consummation. Only participating in one or the other of these things is not a one flesh relationship in YHWH’s eyes. In our terms, Messiah is saying that there is no divorce for someone after the wedding day.

    The Pharisees do not like this. They press further. “Why then did Moses prescribe a divorce certificate?” they ask. Messiah said that it was because of man’s hard heart. What might this entail? Is it because he is too prideful to have a wife that was taken advantage of in her youth? Is it because he might be so hardhearted so as to have her executed after getting what he wanted out of her? Is it because he would use a law unlawfully, that was designed to show the importance of a father protecting his daughter and of a daughter being chaste, to hold the consequences over her head and/or to use her supposedly “lawfully” until he was done with her? Also the relative (or other man) that defiled her was hardhearted to do so not caring about the girls future or about the shame brought to the family, but only his immediate lust. The divorce certificate was designed to protect the woman from a ruined life at the hands of hardhearted men…whether her family or her husband or both.

    To be continued

  7. Continued from above

    Then Y’shua gives the proper interpretation of who can be divorced properly. He gives the definition of the word “uncleanness.” He calls it fornication and not adultery. He says that only fornication counts as the uncleanness and not burnt toast or being argumentative or not being able to have children and…ad infinitum. The uncleanness that Moses speaks of is something that must have happened before the marriage and not after it. For after it, it is called adultery and not fornication.

    There are already laws about sexual sin that takes place after the marriage. The Pharisees have not asked Him about that. That is already settled and everybody agrees.

    So a man may not divorce an adulterous spouse. Why? It is because the man and wife have been made one flesh by YHWH. YHWH prescribes the death penalty if the offended party has witnesses and brings the offenders, yes both of them, to court. This frees the offended parties of their marriage covenant. The offended parties always had the option to forgive and have mercy on the spouse that they have covenanted with.

    The divorce certificate that Y’shua speaks of is very similar to what we call an annulment for a couple that has not consummated the marriage. Our divorce certificates are not real in YHWH’s eyes. They do not free us to remarry, because the wife is bound to the husband as long as he lives according to scripture. “Till death do us part” really means what it says. And if we vowed this, we are not allowed to divorce. YHWH holds us to our words.

    Neither Deuteronomy 24 nor Matthew 19 is permission to divorce in the case of adultery. They are not even permission to do so in case of fornication. Both are saying the same thing. They are saying that a man that is only somewhat hardhearted should allow the defiled woman the chance to marry someone that will love, honor and cherish her even though she was taken advantage of before marriage…or even if she was promiscuous and has now repented. He can only only do this before the marriage is consummated.

    Messiah then tells us how YHWH looks at remarriage. Most all of it is actually adultery…because the way we do divorce does not, and no divorce can, really separate the one flesh relationship. No wonder that Paul tells husbands, with no exceptions, not to divorce their wives. No wonder that Paul tells the wives, with no exceptions, that they must remain single or be reconciled to their husbands if they leave them. No wonder that the other gospel writers do not mention the “exception clause.” They were writing to audiences that had little, or no, knowledge of scriptural betrothal practices that could rightfully make use of the “divorce for defilement before consummation” statute.

    Messiah’s use of the word fornication is in contrast to adultery. If He wanted us to know that we could rightly divorce a spouse that had committed adultery, He could have easily said so. He could have said, “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for ADULTERY, and shall marry another, committeth adultery,’ but He didn’t because He was telling us what the “uncleanness” of Deuteronomy means. He was saying that it means defiled before marriage…fornication. Defilement after marriage is adultery. There really is a difference.

    Messiah was not instituting a new law or changing the old one. He was explaining what the rules entailed. Nether Moses or Messiah allowed for one flesh relationships to be put asunder. YHWH does not allow the men of Moses time or of our time to divorce our wives once we have consummated the marriage. He did allow for a woman that was defiled to be united to a loving and forgiving righteous man. He allowed man to soften his heart and either forgive her or release her on the day of her vow.

    Shalom

  8. Morning Bo,

    With my line of work I luckily had a three day weekend. The extra day was welcome and needed. I hope your weekend was enjoyable.

    Posts 156 and 157 seem to be making connections which are not apparent in Scripture between fornication and uncleanness/nakedness. Though I have shown how when the actual word fornication is used in the Old Testament it doesn’t mean what you pin to it. I do not disagree with your understanding of uncleanness and nakedness. But I don’t see how that can be equated to fornication.

    Let’s look at one more example of non-uncleanness/nakedness from the Old Testament to show that adultery is grounds for divorce, and this divorce is the result of adultery by means of harlotry (fornication).

    This example comes from Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

    Israel: The Wife of Jehovah

    The relationship of Israel as the Wife of Jehovah is viewed throughout the Scriptures in various ways and facets. This relationship can be broken down into six distinct stages.

    Stage One – The Marriage Contract:
    The entire format of the Book of Deuteronomy is that of both an ancient treaty and an ancient marriage contract. In this book, Moses took all the various facets of the three earlier books and presented them in the form of an ancient marriage contract. In this book we find the marriage contract signed between Israel and God whereby Israel becomes the Wife of Jehovah.

    There are key passages that demonstrate how the Book of Deuteronomy fits into the scheme of a marriage contract. The first passage is found in Deuteronomy 5:1-3, which declares that God entered into a covenant with His people Israel at Mount Sinai. As it will be seen later in the study, the Jewish prophets always viewed this covenant-relationship as a marriage contract. In Deuteronomy 6:10-15, God announces His jealousy over His Wife, Israel:

    “You shall fear Jehovah your God; and him shall you serve, and shall swear by his name. You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples that are round about you; for Jehovah your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; lest the anger of Jehovah your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth” (Deut. 6:13-15).

    In this passage, Israel is warned against committing adultery through the worship of other gods because God’s burning jealousy will be kindled against her and will eventually cause her expulsion out of the Land.

    Ezekiel is one example of the Jewish prophets who viewed this covenant-relationship as a marriage contract:

    “Now when I passed by you, and looked upon you, behold, your time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yea, I swore unto you, and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord Jehovah, and you became mine” (Ezekiel 16:8).

    Stage Two – The Great Adultery:
    Several Old Testament prophets described Israel’s great adultery. Jeremiah 3:1-5 shows Israel being guilty of playing the harlot with many lovers and in verse 3:20 Israel is compared to a wife who has turned away from her husband. Israel was a wife guilty of adultery:

    “Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, says Jehovah.”

    According to Jeremiah 31:32, the original marriage contract was broken because of this adultery:

    “… not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, said Jehovah.”

    A long passage in chapter 16 of Ezekiel also describes this great adultery (Ezekiel 16:15-34), and Hosea 2:2-5 declares the charge God had against Israel: she was guilty of harlotry.

    Stage Three – The Separation:
    Because of this adultery, a separation took place between God and Israel in the days of Isaiah. In Isaiah 50:1 God spoke to the prophet stating that God had not yet divorced His Wife.

    “Thus saith Jehovah, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, wherewith I have put her away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities were ye sold, and for your transgressions was your mother put away.”

    If God had divorced her, He would have given her a bill of divorcement; and since no such bill of divorcement was in hand, it meant that a divorce had not taken place. This separation lasted approximately one hundred years.

    Stage Four – The Divorce:
    The one hundred years of separation failed to produce repentance in Israel and finally God had no other choice but to issue the bill of divorcement on the grounds of adultery. This bill of divorcement is contained in Jeremiah 3:6-10.

    6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

    7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

    8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

    9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

    10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

    To a great extent, almost all of Jeremiah can be declared to be God’s bill of divorcement of Israel, but especially this passage in chapter three.

    Stage Five – The Punishment:
    Several Old Testament prophecies speak of the punishment of Israel for her unfaithfulness: Ezekiel 16:35-43 and Hosea 2:6-13 are two examples. The aim of this punishment is not simply so that God could be vengeful toward Israel, but rather to cause her to stop sinning and to stop her adulteries (Ezekiel 16:43). Also, the purpose of the punishment is to show Israel her need for her true husband and not for her false lovers (Hosea 2:7b). Although God has a long program of punishment for Israel’s sins, throughout the period of punishment there is a continual call to repentance. This call is presented in Jeremiah 3:11-18.

    Stage Six – The Remarriage with Restored Blessings:
    The Jewish prophets did not leave things hopeless. They spoke of a coming day when Israel will again become the restored Wife of Jehovah. This will require a brand-new marriage contract, which is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34. What is often known as the new covenant is in many respects a new marriage contract that God will make with both the houses of Israel and Judah. This new covenant of marriage will be necessary because the old marriage covenant was broken. This remarriage contract is also described in Ezekiel 16:60-63. According to Ezekiel, God will enter into an everlasting covenant with Israel in the future.

    The restoration of Israel as Jehovah’s Wife is also described in Isaiah 54:1-8, and the remarriage is further described in Isaiah 62:4-5. Hosea, who had much to say about the adulteries of Israel, also spoke of Israel’s reunion with her husband. Hosea 2:14-23 describes the courtship and the wooing in the wilderness and shows the four results of this reunion.

    14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

    15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

    16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

    17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

    18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

    19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

    20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

    21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

    22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

    23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    So here we have the testimony of YHVH and his divorce, which was due to adultery o Israel’s part. And this adultery is derived from harlotry and whoredom which I have shown many examples in previous posts where harlotry and whoredom are called fornication.

    It rests in harmony with the grounds given by God himself, Jesus Christ, in Matthew.

    It does not seem that we are having any influence on each other after well over 100 posts. It’s probably high time we go and have fellowship in future threads.

    Thanks Bo,
    Grace and Peace,
    -Benjamin

  9. Benjamin,

    The one thing that is not being considered is that Israel in a marriage covenant but the marriage between her and YHWH is not consummated yet. The wedding feast is still to come. So as I explained, the divorce can happen before consummation and not afterwards. Joseph was in the same situation with Mary as YHWH is with Israel. There can be a divorce because of unproven sexual sin during the betrothal. If the man can be produced with 2 or 3 witnesses to the actual sin, then the two are to be executed.

    After the wedding supper of the Lamb there will be no divorce possible. And so we will ever be with YHWH. Until then we are in a betrothal with YHWH. If we decide to be unfaithful we can be divorced. Obviously there is not a perfect analogy between the spiritual and the physical, but hopefully you see that the prophets are explaining the spiritual with the natural and at some point this breaks down. But it does not break down concerning when a divorce can happen…before the consummation…not after.

    YHWH has betrothed himself to us in faithfulness. Of course, in His first covenant with us He did that too. He is always faithful. He did put us away and gave us a bill of divorcement. All this happened during the betrothal period. Now He makes a new covenant with us…a new betrothal. I see nothing that is in contrast to my view.

    Shalom

  10. Thanks Bo,

    This is where other differences come in which we will not get into but its our varying understanding about the wife of God and the bride of Christ.

    Israel is the wife of YHVH (already married and consummated as the verses above went into since God calls Israel’s fornication’s ‘Adultery’ which according to your position is not possible since its not ‘Adultery’ before consummation, it’s just fornication or uncleanness).

    The Church is the bride of Christ (the marriage is to come).

    So we disagree there as well.

  11. But the focus should be on the fact that God says that it is due to adultery that he divorced Israel.

  12. Benjamin,

    So, here is the other aspect that we have not discussed. Fornication is called adultery after the Betrothal and YHWH has not consummated the marriage. (Where is the scripture that indicates that YHWH consummated the marriage with Israel?) This adultery can only be punished as adultery if the the wife is caught with another man and there are 2 or three witnesses. YHWH did not bring the case to court and no witnesses testified.

    If the defilement is after the betrothal the only way to know for sure is if either 2 witnesses testify or the woman becomes pregnant. The pregnancy is not 2 witnesses and the woman cannot be put to death in this case. Divorce is allowed in this case for she would still be defiled on her wedding day. This also can only happen if there has been no consummation.

    Deuteronomy 22
    22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
    23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
    24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

    Certainly, according to the scriptures, fornication after betrothal is adultery as much as it is after the marriage. YHWH calling Israel an adulterous wife does not mean that the marriage has been consummated. The passages that you cling to, do not indicate any consummation.

    Messiah is one with YWHH they are the same Elohim. You cannot have separate marriages to separate wives. As a matter of fact the “New covenant” is a marriage covenant and it is made with Israel and Judah. YHWH is asking his wife that He has divorced to return to Him and offering to betroth her once again. There is nothing that I know of in scripture that would indicate anything else. Jeremiah 31 does not contain a new wife that is betrothed. Gentiles must be grafted into Israel in order to partake of this new marriage covenant.

    Shalom

  13. Benjamin and Bo,
    I think that we can deduce from the law that unfaithfulness during the betrothal period of a marriage is adultery, simply by comparing the judgments that are given.

    1. (Adultery) Married woman is unfaithful: The punishment is death for the man and woman involved. (Lev 20:10)
    2. (Fornication) Unmarried virgin is seduced: The punishment for the man is a fine (and forced marriage at the discretion of the father of the girl) Ex 22:16, Deut 22:28

    So does the situation of a betrothed virgin fall into the category of adultery or fornication?
    3. Betrothed virgin is seduced: The punishment is death for the man and woman involved. Deut 22:23-24

    So, with that in mind, God’s divorce of Israel is during the betrothal period for adultery. As a bonus, I think this is the only way for Revelation 21:2-3 to make sense.

    Rev 21:2-3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them…

    Why is “Jerusalem” adorned as a bride preparing to live with God in this future event if the marriage between them has already taken place?

    So, apparently I disagree with Bo on that, but I also disagree with Benjamin in saying that our Savior allows divorce for reasons in addition to what the law gives. If He did so, then He would be worthy of death according to the law (Deut 13:1-5), and did not then fulfill it as He said He came to do.

    I also disagree with the idea that the Church and Israel are separate brides for separate husbands. If believers are the bride of Christ and are grafted into Israel, this would mean that this group of grafted in believers is the wife of two husbands! The enigma is solved if the brides are actually one entity and Christ and God are one entity as well (which They are).

  14. Now Bo’s new post shows up… I guess I misunderstood what you were saying earlier about the definitions of adultery and fornication. Thanks for clarifying.

  15. Joshua,

    What do you think about Benjamin’s post quoting Fruchtenbaum’s stage 3 and stage 4 as to separation and then 100 years later a divorce certificate? If a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day, is it just 2.4 hours between the two? 🙂 How much of the prophets symbolism can we take as perfect parallels to YHWH’s statutes for us? Is the symbolism between one prophet and another perfectly congruent with all the others?

    Shalom

  16. Benjamin and Joshua,

    The more I read Isaiah 50 (the whole chapter) the more I think that it could be referring to the future first coming of Messiah. I know prophesies can jump from present to future, so I can’t say for sure. Also When I read the words of vs. 1 it seems that YHWH is saying that He did not put her away or sell her children but that the children sold themselves and the children’s sins caused the mother to depart like Jeremiah says.

    Jeremiah 3
    20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

    Isaiah 50
    1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
    2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
    3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.

    So YHWH is saying that He didn’t put her away or there would be a bill of divorcement to prove it. He didn’t sell the children or there would be someone that he owed money to that they would have been sold to. He doesn’t owe anyone…He is strong and powerful as verse 2-3 says. It also says that He came and no one was there…like they ran away and sold themselves went to live with a lover.

    Plus YHWH would not put away His wife without a bill of divorcement, for that is unrighteous according to the scripture.

    Jeremiah 3
    7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

    So Israel left without a bill of divorcement and then when they refused to repent, YHWH put them away and gave them a bill of divorcement. And all this after the betrothal but before the consummation which is at the wedding feast at the end of the world…according to Revelation.

    Shalom

  17. Good morning,

    Several things here. First a question which was diverted so I will phrase it differently.

    What does a faithful husband do today if his wife commit adultery and he can’t bring himself to forgive her? Can he stone her?

    It seems that all the passages that actually include fornication or describe its acts (both Old and New Testaments), you will not allow into the discussion to help define the definition. But a few unrelated passages dealing with uncleanness and nakedness you go to to define a word not even used there.

    That being said, I agree that uncleanness and nakedness as described in the passages you brought up, that being of incest or intercourse with next of kin, is a type of fornication. But fornication is not limited to that sense and I shall again show more evidence it is not the sense Yeshua is speaking of.

    Another question I wanted to bring back just for my own curiosity was this:

    “What if someone made a covenant with Satan before God, to serve Satan? Can he/she not repent and break this covenant and follow Jesus?”

    But back to the point I was making about fornication. Everywhere the word fornication is used it implies other circumstances, but it’s scope does include incest or unlawful sex before marriage consummation. But everywhere the actual word is used it describes unlawful intercourse of any kind (spiritual or physical).

    1 Corinthians 7

    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication[porneia], let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

    4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

    5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

    – The ESV renders verse 2 as such:

    2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality[porneia], each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

    – Is the apostle Paul warning married believers that if they do not render their bodies to their spouse that their spouse will go have unlawful intercourse with a betrothed person? No, of course not. He is warning against adultery. When you start dividing porneia’s then you can make it suit or go against anything you want. But when you see that porneia always means any type of unlawful intercourse, then you cant bend it to fit different situations. Every use of the word porneia in the NT encompasses the entirety of the word, sexual immorality. Is Yeshua’s the only exception? No, he used porneia because fornication is the root of all sexual immorality which in the case of the married makes one guilty of adultery, you can’t be guilty of sexual adultery unless you fornicate.

    “How much of the prophets symbolism can we take as perfect parallels to YHWH’s statutes for us?”

    – I don’t believe YHVH would give a parallel that in itself violates His own Law. All Scripture is good for teaching.

    “This adultery can only be punished as adultery if the the wife is caught with another man and there are 2 or three witnesses. YHWH did not bring the case to court and no witnesses testified.”

    – I beg to differ. God uses Judah as a witness as they ‘witnessed’ Israels adulteries. Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hosea stand up and testify (maybe even more but these are three) of the adulteries. And then we have Ezekiel 16:35-43 where God says exactly what this was and how He will punish this: (verse 38)

    35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord:

    36 Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

    37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

    38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

    39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

    40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

    41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

    42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

    43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord God: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

    – And here is the NASB’s translation of verse 38:

    38 Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.

    There goes the idea that this cannot be treated or punished as adultery. And with that I must end here.

    Grace and peace,
    -Benjamin

  18. Benjamin,

    Thanks for sticking with me on this topic. I will give consideration to your post and respond as I can. I’ve got quite a bit of stuff piling up right now, so do not fret if it takes me awhile. (Family ski trip, company from TN, funeral for niece.) It could be a week or a little more before I can get back to this.

    Shalom

  19. Thanks Dr. Brown for standing moral ground in these insane and perverted times!

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all.

  20. No problem Bo,

    I hope you and your family have a blessed time in all situations you find yourself in this coming week.

    Shalom,

  21. Benjamin,

    I have a few minutes. Concerning the idea of us making a covenant with the devil and other such things. YHWH told Adam that he would die in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He did not die that literal day…at least not physically. He did die within a 1000 years. Every man dies within a 1000 years of eating the same fruit. Peter says that a 1000 years is a day and vice versa.

    Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

    Any covenant we make in the spiritual realm can be annulled on the day (1000 years) that YHWH hears of it since He is our Father. Also this life is our betrothal period, so our Husband, Y’shua, can divorce us for fornication as long as it is before consummation when we will know Him as we are known and when we shall see Him as He is, for we will be like Him.

    I think we could say that if we were betrothed to Satan and decided to be unfaithful to Him that we could be divorced from him and become YHWH’s wife. This seems to be the spiritual parallel to the physical commandments.

    Shalom

  22. Interesting Bo,

    Though the second half of the verse in 2 Peter 3:8 is usually not included when quoted since if quoted it gives to the verse a different meaning. Verse 9 also gives meaning.

    2 Peter 3:8-9
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    So verse 8 if entirely quoted, cancels itself out, or in other words means that God is outside of time since the canceling statement of “and a thousand years as one day” is the opposite of a day being a thousand years. The purpose is to teach that God is not bound by time as verse 9 also proclaims.

    I will look into this connection you made to Adam, but I don’t see the connection being there right now. Is there a source you might be able to point me to?

    I also do not see where we are told that we have 1000 years to break an evil covenant. If we die at 80 years old, do we have 920 years in the afterlife to repent? I may not be following what you were conveying.

    Concerning Isaiah 28:18, and the idea of having 1000 years to break their covenant with death, its been 2,800 years since that time, so it looks like it’s 1.8 days too late? But Isaiah is speaking of a different context in Isaiah 28:14-22, he deals with the end times and Daniel 9:27 is a parallel verse.

    Sorry, I know you have things to do. Godspeed my friend.

    -Benjamin

  23. Benjamin,

    I was not saying that we have 1000 years to break our vows. We cannot break them. YHWH must release us in the day that He hears them. That day can be seen as 1000 years.

    YHWH being outside time and He being our betrothed husband and our Father, has the right to annul our vows as His daughter and wife on the day He hears of them…which is anytime by His time frame. I was not trying to say that 1000 years is the limit. It is interesting that many men lived into there 900’s, but none past 1000 years. The 6 thousand years of history ending with a 1000 reign of Messiah is also parallel to a day being 1000 years. YHWH allows us to do our work for 6 days and then to rest on the Sabbath. The millennial reign will be a rest so to speak of man doing his own thing.

    Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    It is almost 2000 years (Possibly 2 days) since Messiah’s death. He may raise us up to to live in His sight at the start of the 3rd day.

    The main point is that YHWH can annul our vows in the day He hears them…it is always the same day to Him…so certainly it is less than a day from the time we are born till the time we die to Him. So whatever vows we make with death or the devil can be annulled. As far as our earthly vows, a man has till the end of the day to annul his wife’s or his daughter’s vows. As far as a man is concerned, we cannot go back on our word, like YHWH cannot go back on His. The man is the picture of YHWH. The woman the picture of Israel/bride of Messiah.

    Shalom

  24. Bo, What is your opinion- To the best of your knowledge of the 2000 yrs? When is it up? Have we passed it. I would like to see your math.

    Thank you,

  25. Jon,

    2000 years from Messiah’s death. We still have about 15 years. I say about, because the days will be shortened for the very elect’s sake and we do not know for sure that the 2000 years is an exact number.

    Shalom

  26. Bo,

    I too am in agreement about the 6 days of creation mirroring the 6,000 years of history we have and the 7th day of rest being equated to the millennial kingdom. But I’m still failing to see how Adam and others living to just under 1,000 years old connects? Any sources? I am not contending this point, in fact it interests me. I believe Adam was saved the day his judgement was pronounced when God covered him with animal skins.

    What I am contending is the Idea that a covenant can be dis-annulled anytime after a 24 hour day. Isaiah 28:18 is the result of anti-Christ breaking his agreement with Israel and the consequent salvation which soon follows. It’s just not God randomly dis-annulling a vow, although the breaking of this vow leads to Israels national salvation.

    Jon,

    to be faithful it is only interesting parallelism and speculation but the 2,000 years would be complete sometime between 2029 and 2033 depending on the year Jesus rose from the dead. I think it makes a lot of sense but ‘no man knoweth the day nor the hour’.

  27. Benjamin,

    It was promised to Adam that in the day he ate, he would surely die. In the spiritual sense that happened immediately. In the 1000 years is a day scheme, it took Adam almost 1000 years to die. So he did literally, of maybe we should say physically, die within the first day in the parallel. Both came true. He died spiritually immediately as time has no relevance in the spiritual realm of YHWH. He died physically in the time allotted for a parallel 1000 year day. Also Y’shua is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world though He died after 4000 years since creation.

    As far as no man knowing the day or the hour, it is a Hebrew idiom that refers to the feast of trumpets. Since the feast is on the first day of the month and the moon has to be sighted to start that month, no one knows when it is until the moon is sighted in the promised land. All the other feasts of YHWH are many days after the sighted new moon so we know ahead of time. The last trump and the shout of the archangel are consistent with the feast that is literally “the day of blowing (trumpets)” or “the day of shouting” All the spring feasts were fulfilled in Messiah’s first coming and it would seem that the fall feasts will be fulfilled at His second coming. The spring feasts were fulfilled on the very day. Why would we think that the fall feasts would be otherwise. Those feasts are literally…”appointments.”

    I am not concerned with the aspect of Isaiah happening in the future or in more than a 1000 years on the parallel. The fact remains that our husband can annul our individual vows on the day he hears them. Though we make an agreement with the devil, the day we are betrothed to Y’shua, he can annul that vow. He can also divorce us until the the marriage is consummated. This is a good reason to not believe “once saved always saved.” Us being saved is Y’shua paying our bride price. He comes back for a spotless bride. There will be many tares that will not be brought into the garner.

    Shalom

  28. And with each of us individually, it is within the 1000 years or one day time frame…even with Methuselah at 969.

  29. Bo,

    Though we are discussing issues that you and I disagree on, there is a lot we line up on but then certain things come up where we diverge so greatly. Its rather interesting. But we do have a lot in common. Such as the middle paragraph about the feast of trumpets, you and I line up there perfectly.

    The first paragraph seems to be interesting conjecture for the most part about Adam. That’s why I was asking for any sources if there are any on the subject. Yeshua was not actually slain before the foundation of the world but was considered slain since it was God’s plan from before creation to redeem this world which would fall.

    The analogy of God annulling our vows breaks down since in the scenario I gave Satan would be the persons ‘husband/father’ and he would be the only one who could annul the vow. It would be like me going to a woman who is engaged to another man and saying to her “Your engagement is Null, you are now engaged to me”. My point is to show that covenants can be broken in response to the statement:

    “I was not saying that we have 1000 years to break our vows. We cannot break them.”

    Ezekiel 16:
    59 For thus saith the Lord God; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

    60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

    Genesis 17:
    14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

    Leviticus 26:
    15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

    Yet, though Israel can and did break their covenant with God, He says this is verse 44 of the same chapter:

    44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.

    So man can break covenants as expressed above (and there are many more examples), but the Lord is faithful to the fathers and can restore the covenants if it’s His will.

    “And with each of us individually, it is within the 1000 years or one day time frame…even with Methuselah at 969.”

    – Elijah and Enoch being the only two exceptions.

    Getting back to Isaiah, my point was not to say that this was future, it was to say that it is anti-Christ who does the disannulling and breaks the covenant he has made with Israel and brings a scourge of persecution over Israel and they are trodden down. So to use this verse to show that God annuls is not proper use of the passage, specially in light of its parallel passage, Daniel 9:27:

    “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

    “And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”

    I’m looking forward to showing the verses which discuss God’s consummated marriage with Israel.

    -Benjamin

  30. Universal GAYety is Coming !

    Gays are found throughout history. For the first time ever – finally – they’re almost worldwide! Wow!
    This global gaydom is even foretold in the Bible – predicted by Jesus (see “days of Lot” in Luke 17 and compare with Genesis 19).
    And the Hebrew prophet Zechariah (14th chapter) says that during the same gay “days” ALL nations will come against Israel and fulfill the “days of Noah” at the same time (see Luke 17 again) – a short time of anti-Jewish genocide found in Zechariah 13:8 when two-thirds of all Jews will die.
    In other words, when “gay days” have become universal, all hell will break loose!
    Shockingly, the same “days” will lead to and trigger the “end of days” – and when they begin, human government will quickly wind down in just a few short years. For the first time in history there won’t be enough time for anyone to expect to live long enough to be able to attend college, have kids and grand-kids, save for and enjoy retirement, etc.
    One final thought. The more we see gays “coming out,” the sooner Jesus will be “coming down”!
    (For more, Google or Yahoo “God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up” and “Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality. When gays have birthdays…”)

  31. Hello Bo,

    Haven’t heard on this post if you were back from family matters and activities, so I hope all has been well. It has been awhile so I will make what may be my final post on this thread regarding Israel’s consummation to God.

    Israel’s marriage to God viewed as consummated.

    Why do I contend that Israel’s marriage to God was consummated? There are many reasons, three of which will be outlined below:

    1, Israel is called the ‘wife’ of God. She is commonly depicted as an ‘unfaithful’ wife.
    2, Thru the covenant of marriage there will be many ‘children’.
    3, Hosea and Gomer – A depiction of the marriage between God and Israel.

    Number one: The Wife of God
    You may be thinking that just because Israel is constantly called the wife of God, it does not mean the marriage was consummated. But after points two and three this will be much clearer. Especially once you compare the depictions of an unfaithful wife to the New Testament images of the virgin bride. On the one side you have God said to be the Husband of Israel, and Messiah is the Bridegroom of the Church. Even the terms have a large contrast between them. Israel is also often depicted as a wife who has given birth to children, while this is never said of the virgin bride of Christ. We have problems if the virgin bride has previously been an unfaithful wife found guilty of adultery, fornication, harlotry, whoredom, pregnancy and childbearing, etc, etc.

    This unfaithful wife who has been divorced is promised that one day she will be restored as wife, but she has already lost her virginity. I know this is probably the larger of the three points where we may differ, since we come from different hermeneutical camps. So I will move on to point 2.

    Number Two: Marriage and the Promise of Children
    Numerous times in the Old Testament God promised to give many children, or seed, to Israel. And for this portion let’s look at Ezekiel, chapter 16.

    1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

    – With regard to the contents and context of the scripture to follow, the first three verses ring of Genesis 2:24, though it’s the wife leaving mother and father in the analogy, though in physical terms it was Abram who left mother and father.

    24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    Continuing with Ezekiel:

    6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

    7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

    8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

    – God is describing Israel as a maiden who he has caused to bud and flourish. He speaks of her breasts as filling in, indicating maturity and love for marriage and child-bearing. In verse 8 God speaks of Israel’s consummation when he speaks of looking upon her, and seeing that she was ready for love (consummation, figuratively). So he claimed her by spreading his garment over her and entering into covenant with her in her time of love. The Complete Jewish Bible translates verse 8 as follows:

    8 “‘Again I passed by you, looked at you and saw that your time had come, the time for love…”

    – Verses 9 through 13 culminate in verse 14, which says:

    14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

    – Then this consummated wife gets herself into trouble (more on consummation coming).

    15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

    – To summarize the following verses I will outline what she does and what she is called because of doing such:

    Verse 16: Defiled her garments – Harlot
    17: Jewels into images – Whoredom
    18-19: Continued Idolatry

    Leading to verse 20

    20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

    – Notice these are her sons and daughters which she bore unto God. She is no virgin, God has given her children (figuratively).

    21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

    – Even more clearly in this verse God calls them “his children” or “my children”. – (consummation)
    The passage then continues with further descriptions of her adulteries, whoredoms, and fornications which I will only snip from:

    25 Thou … hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

    26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians … and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

    28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians … thou hast played the harlot with them…

    29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea …

    30 How weak is thine heart, … the work of an imperious whorish woman;

    31 … and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;

    – The Lord really digs in in verse 32 through 34 in response to verse 31 where he says that unlike a harlot, she doesn’t take any money for her services, but says what she is doing:

    32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

    33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

    34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

    – Now the judgment declaration begins: 35, 38

    35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

    38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

    – He is judging Israel as women who commit adultery are judged, and also as women who murder are judged since the shedding of blood is in reference to her children, not a loss of virginity. I shall include two other translations from the Complete Jewish Bible and Chabad.org

    Complete Jewish:
    38 I will pronounce on you the sentence that applies to women who commit adultery and murder; I will bring on you the death [decreed for] furious jealousy.

    Chabad.org:
    38. And I shall judge you [with] the judgments of adulteresses and murderesses, and I shall deliver you [to those who shed] blood with fury and zeal.

    – And as was the Old Testament punishment for women who were caught in the act of adultery, Israel would be stoned:

    40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

    – The remainder of the chapter culminates in God declaring that he will one day restore Israel to himself, and restore her to her position of blessings.

    So we learn that Israel is God’s wife, she is no longer a virgin and has borne him children (figuratively), displaying what is required for consummation, and that she was judged as a woman who commits adultery.

    Moving on to section three:

    Section Three: Hosea and Gomer
    God called Hosea to be a living depiction of His relationship and marriage to Israel. Hosea was to marry a prostitute since Israel was playing the prostitute in her marriage.

    Hosea 1:2-3
    2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

    3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

    – God is using Hosea as a depiction of himself in this example. Hosea (God) married this woman who was playing the prostitute, Gomer (Israel). Due to this marriage she conceived and bore children and God gives them names to foretell Israel’s future.

    6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

    7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God…

    8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Hosea Chapter 2: God and Israel are divorced (yet for a while).

    2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

    3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

    4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.

    5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.

    Hosea is written primarily with this imagery of God and Isreal (Hosea and Gomer) having children, sons and daughters, what they have done, what they need to do, and what the end result will be.

    I primarily let the text speak for itself above, but from Ezekiel and Hosea we can see that His marriage to Israel is described as consummated, no other conclusion is possible, at least not when you let the text speak for itself. Israel is the wife of God, not the bride of God. Brides are virgins, wives are not. God uses language of consummation in various texts above. And Israel and God are said to have had children (figuratively), which indeed leads to the incarnation of our savior.

    I was just thinking of how far from the topic we have gone off. Scripture is inexhaustible and so we easily find ourselves following many offshoots and branches.

    Thanks my friend. I am most likely considering this my last post on the subject of Fornication and Adultery. And in recap: fornication as used by Jesus is a reference to any kind of sexual immorality at any time during marriage. I am having a hard time remembering all the subjects we have discussed, but it has been interesting and rewarding.

    I hope your time with family was blessed.

    -Benjamin

  32. Benjamin,

    I am back, but I have been remiss to not get back to you on this thread. Sorry. I was concerned that we were using words differently and thought that we not connecting exactly on things. I’ll read your above post soon and see if I have anything else to offer.

    Shalom

  33. Benjamin,

    What occurs to me is that if the increase of people count as children of the marriage between YHWH and Israel, they must count in Christianity also. In this analogy there would also be consummation with the bride of Messiah. The increase of Israel is spoken about on two levels. One analogy is about the children born to a wife the other is about all those people together being the wife. We probably could, with enough time and effort, sort out the two analogies. This is part of the reason that I said that we are having semantic problems previously. If you can think of a reason that there are not actually 2 analogies that run parallel, I may have to rethink some of my points about the divorce of Israel being before consummation.

    Now obviously, I think that we are grafted into Israel and that we are the bride of Messiah. I also think that we are no longer gentiles and that we are the body of Messiah. At the same time, He is called the everlasting Father and we are His children. And He called us friends if we keep His commandments. And we are His brothers and sisters. We could sort the passages out that speak singularly about all these different things and gain great insight, I’m sure. We could lump them all together and realize how integral and all encompassing His love and devotion is for us.

    I guess I was trying to do the former with the passages that I thought showed the bridegroom relationship with Israel as it relates to divorce law applicability. I do not think that I did a bad job, but I see that analogies break down at some point…especially when there are many parallel ones that are used to illuminate our relationship with YHWH.

    I see you as keeping the analogies together. This shows how unfaithful Israel, whom we are grafted into is. How we deserve to be cast off. This is very true.

    The wife relationship does have a certain import in producing YHWH’s Son, but He also came through a singular woman. So the Woman, Israel, in Revelation that brought forth the One that will rule with a rod of Iron is a married woman that had YHWH’s Son. Also Israel is called YHWH’s firstborn son. So I see your points, but think that you are leaving mixed, what I was trying to separate for the purpose of showing a consistency on a specific subject. But it has been good.

    I do not mean this as an excuse, but as an explanation of how we are not tracking down the same road part of the time. Both of us speaking truths, but missing the goal of the other. Let me know if you think that I am equivocating or copping out.

    Shalom

  34. Benjamin,

    Here is what we are doing. We are traveling down a 5 lane highway. You are in the middle lane and I am in the right lane. One lane separates us. We both insist that the lane we are traveling in will reach the destination of the city of Truth. I keep getting on exit ramps to stay on my course that actually runs parallel to the main highway most of the way, but the traffic is lighter. Just when I think I am making good headway on my road, you yell out of your window, “There is a detour up ahead on your road.” Then I take the next ramp back onto the freeway and put up with the heavy traffic just long enough to get past the obstruction on my road. Both of our roads and all of the lanes go to the proper destination in general, but I keep aiming to go to a specific suburb of Truth and you want to go to the center of the metropolis.

    Shalom

  35. Thanks Bo,

    “What occurs to me is that if the increase of people count as children of the marriage between YHWH and Israel, they must count in Christianity also. In this analogy there would also be consummation with the bride of Messiah.” -Bo

    – Not so since this analogy is never given in scripture of the bride of Messiah. The analogies that are given in scripture strike distinction between the two. Non-virgin wife of YHWY and virgin bride of Messiah. The Church is never depicted as having children. So I cannot apply the analogy given in the Old Testament and over-turn the analogy given in the New Testament. In the Old Testament the wife was the nation Israel and the children are Israelites (all Israelites). The New Testament depicts the new man as being born again through adoption, as opposed to natural birth (we begin being born of water, but faith causes us to be born a second time of the Spirit). I can see what you mean by applying the analogy to the Church, but I don’t think we can apply it since we are not natural born, but adopted.

    “Now obviously, I think that we are grafted into Israel and that we are the bride of Messiah.” -Bo

    We have agreement here, though I think it’s a shallow agreement since by that statement you and I understand this fact differently. This I say based on your next sentence which I will quote in a moment. We are grafted into the olive tree (Gentiles), but emphasis is given to the fact that we are not natural branches (believing Jews), and being natural branches has its benefits. Gentiles are called wild branches which are contrary to the natural.

    “The third basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive is found in Romans 11:16-21 and 24. In this tree there are two types of branches representing Jewish believers and Gentile believers. The Jewish believers are the natural branches; that is, we correspond to the very nature of the tree, it is as if the tree and the natural branches have the same blood type. The wild olive branches are the Gentile believers. It is clearly stated that the presence of these branches in the tree is contrary to nature, the blood type is different. There is an obvious composite difference between the two, which makes them distinct from each other.” -Fruchtenbaum

    “I also think that we are no longer gentiles and that we are the body of Messiah.” –Bo

    This is the sentence that lets me know you and I understand this differently. I am a Gentile, a Gentile still, though I have been grafted contrary to nature into the body of Messiah. Gentiles in scripture never lose their identity, they never stop being Gentiles. They are also never called Israel. The apostle Paul always makes a distinction between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. He does not address believing Gentiles as Israelites, etc. When Paul addresses mixed congregations of believing Jews and Gentiles, he makes distinctions between the two, saying things like, “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:” (Rom 11:13, etc.)

    “This shows how unfaithful Israel, whom we are grafted into, is.” –Bo

    We must always keep in mind also that while God divorced Israel (as a nation); he still preserves for himself a remnant of believing Jews (the Israel of God, or the Israel within Israel). And it is that remnant that we are grafted into the olive tree with (they not being grafted but natural).

    “So I see your points, but think that you are leaving mixed, what I was trying to separate for the purpose of showing a consistency on a specific subject. But it has been good.
    I do not mean this as an excuse, but as an explanation of how we are not tracking down the same road part of the time. Both of us speaking truths, but missing the goal of the other. Let me know if you think that I am equivocating or copping out.” -Bo

    No it is not a cop-out. It’s truth. It’s the Scriptures that we bring with us, which lie underneath-that inform our understanding of such words (fornication, etc.) and passages about consummation and distinctions. And I affirm that this discussion has been good. It’s always good to try and understand views of passages that are slightly different from one’s own, to evaluate our own positions to see if they hold up. It hopefully brings us one step closer to maturity in the Word (meat>milk). As McGee always says, “the meat and potatoes. I like me a good Porter-house!”, or something close. So may I strive for that Porter-house!

    Thanks Bo.
    Grace and peace,

    -Benjamin

    P.S ( I just refreshed before posting and saw your post #188. Wow, I really must say I thought that analogy was great and very interesting. I am going to have to chew on it for a while. )

  36. Just a side note.

    You must be somewhere closer to the west coast that I currently am. I feel this from your analogy when you said, “Then I take the next ramp back onto the freeway” and freeway is a west coast term.

    I grew up in California so that’s what I call it as well. But when I moved to the mid-west, no one calls it a freeway out here, its an expressway =/

    I recall having lunch with some friends from Church out here and they were talking about cars and tune-ups and I mentioned something about getting my car “smog-checked” and they all looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language. Blank faces and complete lack of understanding of what I meant. My sister-in-law chimes in “He’s from California and he’s talking about emissions-checks…” and they all “Ohhhh” haha.

  37. Benjamin,

    Here is something that you might want to digest also:

    Ephesians 2
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world…
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    Not gentiles anymore! So Paul does say that we are no longer gentiles and foreigners. What YHWH has joined together let not man put assunder 🙂

    Romans 9
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    The adoption, covenants and promises are Israel’s. If we want to participate in these we must become part of Israel. The commonwealth of Israel belongs to those that join themselves to them. Fellowcitizens are those that are members of the Israel.

    Jeremiah 31
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    Israel does not cease to be a nation…till the heavens and earth cease. The new covenant is with Israel. We can only partake of this covenant of promise by joing/being grafted into Israel. Those of Israel that are not really Israel have been cut off of Israel’s olive tree. Those that are joined to Israel are on her olive tree.

    Isaiah 56
    3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
    4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
    5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
    6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
    7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
    8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    We cannot say that we are separate from Israel. The covenants belong to them. They are YHWH’s fisrtborn and the covenants and blessings are passed down through the firstborn. We are supposed to be members of the church/assembly of the first born.

    Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    Hebrews 12
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Just thought you would like to know.

    Shalom

  38. Benjamin,

    Maybe no long prophetic analogies, but the “church” has children nonetheless. Who did she have these children by?

    1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
    2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

    Shalom

  39. “Not gentiles anymore! So Paul does say that we are no longer gentiles and foreigners. What YHWH has joined together let not man put asunder” –Bo

    You are reading into the text. You said, “So Paul does say that we are no longer gentiles and foreigners.” But Paul never says “No longer Gentiles”, he only says “No longer Foreigners”. The emphasis is on uncircumcision and being strangers, not Gentile/non-Gentile. After all, it was Israel’s ultimate purpose to bless the Gentiles. Paul says that Gentiles are now partakers of citizenship, but they never get identified as non-Gentiles.

    Romans 9: The entire book of Romans highlights the distinctive between Israel and the Church. I agree that we are grafted into the tree, but as wild branches as opposed to natural branches. Distinction. Your Romans 9 quote began with verse 4, but verse 3 sheds light on the context: “3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:” –Israelites as opposed to Gentiles. Key word is flesh. Verse 4: “4 Who are Israelites;” So again we never have Gentiles being called Israelites or Jews, or anything other than Gentiles.

    Jeremiah 31: This passage speaks of the national turning of the nation of Israel back to God at the second coming of Christ. All of Israel will be saved. A parallel passage is found in Romans 11:25-27 where Paul affirms that this covenant is future in the end days.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    So Paul says that this new covenant will not be realized until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Then shall the covenant be made that ushers in the deliverer from Zion (Jesus) who turns away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel) and shall take away all their sins. Resulting in “And so all Israel shall be saved:”

    Here is a snippet from an article titled “Gentile: Who Is A Gentile?”

    “If the Scriptures are used as the objective standard, then the definition of a Gentile is equally simple. A Gentile is simply anyone who is not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In short, a Gentile is anyone who is not a Jew. The implication again is that no matter what a Gentile does, he can never become a non-Gentile.

    But this raises the question of Gentiles who have converted to Judaism: can they properly be called Jews? On the basis of Scripture, the answer is, “No.” The Jew is the nationality; the religion is Judaism. Acceptance of Judaism by a Gentile does not make him a Jew, but a proselyte. We see the distinction between Jews and proselytes in
    Matthew 23:15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.

    It should be noted that these evangelists for Judaism are not said to seek to make one a Jew, but to make one a proselyte.

    A second passage is Acts 2:10, which is at the end of a list of place-names, showing the origins of the multitude that had come to Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. The list ends with the phrase both Jews and proselytes. Again, there is that same distinction.

    Acts 6:5 provides us with a third example: And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch.

    In this passage, a distinction is made between Nicolaus and the rest. The others were all Jews who had accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, but Nicolaus was a proselyte, a Gentile convert to Judaism who had accepted Him.

    The final example is found in Acts 13:43: Now when the synagogue broke up, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

    The same distinction is clearly made again; Gentile converts to Judaism are never given the title of Jews.

    The chief Old Testament example of a Gentile convert to Judaism is Ruth. Many Gentiles have tried to claim Jewishness on the principle of conversion based on Ruth’s story. But Ruth is consistently called “a Moabitess” both before and after her acceptance of the God of Israel. This can be seen in Ruth 1:22; 2:2, 6, 21; 4:5, 10. The conclusion is that a Gentile cannot do anything to become a non-Gentile.”

  40. Benjamin,

    This: “being in time past Gentiles in the flesh” sounds like “no longer gentiles” to me…just in different words. A foreigner is a gentile as far as a Jew is concerned.

    Shalom

  41. Bo,

    Then you need to reconcile Paul’s continuous use of the term Gentile when speaking to believing Gentiles. He doesn’t call them something new or different, but always Gentiles.

  42. And just to elaborate on the Ephesians passage, this is what I was trying to draw out, the emphasis or focus is not on being former Gentiles, but on being formerly strangers and outside, now the Gentiles are familiar and inside.

    To draw this out let’s look at a few other translations of the text of Ephesians 2:11 to show that Paul was not calling them anything other than Gentiles.

    ESV “you Gentiles”
    11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

    NASB “the Gentiles”
    11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

    Complete Jewish “you Gentiles”
    11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised —

  43. Benjamin,

    Let’s try a literal version or two instead of modern versions fraught with doctrinal interpretations.

    11 Wherefore, remember, that ye were once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, (YLT)

    11 Therefore remember, that you once Gentiles in flesh, (those being called uncircumcision by the being called circumcision in flesh done by hand,) (Diglot)

    Shalom

  44. Sorry, I should have included all of this in one post but to bring one more thing out we need to notice that verse 11 is Paul describing the Gentiles and calling them to remember something. They are not being told to remember when they were formerly Gentiles, thats actually a description of what they are now. Paul is asking them to remember what comes in verse 12: That the Gentiles were once without Messiah.

    YLT:
    12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

    13 and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

    or KJV:
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

  45. Benjamin,

    The covenants belong to Israel. Once we are grafted in we are no longer strangers from the covenants of promise and the promises belong to Israel also…according to Paul in Romans. And so we were purchased by Messiah’s blood. And are part of His family and are His bride. Do you think that he would marry someone that was not an Israelite? Judah entered into a covenant not to marry foreign wives…remember? Is He not of the tribe of Judah?

    Shalom

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