You’ve Got Questions, We’ve Got Answers

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How should we feel about a megachurch pastor’s comment regarding same-sex “marriage” that “his church has a stance about love and has a conversation about everything else”? What did Jesus mean when He cried out on the cross, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” How do we respond who claim that biblical morality cannot be taken seriously today, since it included laws like the stoning of adulterers? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

     

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As we bow down to worship a soveriegn God let us remember that He makes His own nature and character clear throughout Scripture. There’s no ambiguity in Him.

 

Hour 2: 

 

 Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We would do well to look at the condition of a dying world rather than fighting over minor issues, and give ourselves to bring health and healing and salvation to the lost.

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123 Comments
  1. Ray,

    What you believe could have been done does not take into account the Jewish culture or the nature of Messiah and the way He and the why He did what He did.

    Read the link, Ray…carefully.

    Shalom

  2. Ray,

    The Romans were not “inhabitants of the land.” They were the possessors of the land and the Jews were subjects. According to scripture we are to obey the rulers of our lands and we are to obey our masters. The Jews had no authority to put someone to death during the time of the story.

    Shalom

  3. If for some unknown reason to us, the woman caught in adultery could not have been legaly stoned according to the law, those accusing her would have come to Jesus with a very weak case.

    I assume that they had enough against her to satisfy the requirements of the law.

    I don’t believe that to be unreasonable.

    One thing we know and that is that Jesus had the authority on earth to do what he did which resulted in her going free, and him taking her sin upon himself as he did for the entire world, becoming the payment for that of the whole world.

  4. Ray,

    Well, you do not know the law. Messiah and the Jews did. Do a little research. Go look at the other times they tempted Him. All you’re doing is trying to cover your tail and not reading closely the scripture, my posts, or the link I posted. You also do not realize that Messiah laid down His power as Elohim and became a servant. He had no right to judge being in the form of man. Read Philippians…closely.

  5. I wonder if people were always getting stoned for adultery at that time, or if this is something the scribes and Pharisees scrounged up from so many years ago.

    I wonder when the last time was that they stoned someone for adultery.

  6. All authority was given to Messiah after the resurrection. It was taken away from the Jewish religious leaders. Messiah set the apostles in authority after He had the power to do so.

    Matthew 21
    33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
    34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
    35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
    36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
    37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
    46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

    Matthew 23
    1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
    2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
    3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    Matthew 28
    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

  7. Ray,

    There were no people being stoned at that time because Rome forbade it. It is silly wonder if this adultery was scrounged up from many years back. There is nothing in the context that would even hint at such a thing.

  8. I wonder if Jesus ever talked about how the Father sent him not to condemn the world, but….

    I believe he did, because with him, it was always the gospel.

  9. Ray,

    Condemn and judge are the same word in the Greek. So you just proved my point that Messiah could not judge while He was here as a man.

  10. Ray,

    I wonder if you spent more time studying scripture and reading things more carefully, instead of wondering so much, if we would have these conversations that are so unnecessary to understanding the truth. A conversation that included a thorough understanding of the whole scripture instead of truisms and bumper sticker slogans would be so refreshing.

  11. Bo, what I’ve learned from a dictionary is that one word can be used in many ways to mean different things.

    John 5:22
    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

  12. Bo, do you understand that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the woman caught in adultery and that he did not have to have to condemn her?

  13. Ray,

    Do you realize that Messiah had to uphold the law. He had to do and teach it perfectly and wholly. If He didn’t He would forfeit being the king of the kingdom of heaven. He would end up as least in the kingdom. He would also lose His perfect status and could not be our sacrifice.

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Fulfill can never mean “fail to do.” Messiah is the one that did and taught every last little commandment perfectly. He did not excuse even the smallest of commandment breaking nor their application.

    Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

  14. John 5
    45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Luke 16
    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

  15. Bo, in answer to your question above, I understand that Jesus did the will of the Father, establishing the righteousness of the law by obedience to the Father, teaching the gospel, laying down his life as a ransom for many, giving them the keys to the kingdom, and giving the holy Spirit that whosoever will believe in him may receive everlasting life, walk by it, and establish the righteousness of the law in like manner as he did. (see Rom 3:31 KJV)

    He upheld the gospel above all else, even unto the death of the cross.

  16. Bo, though you decide to be more about the law than the gospel, by the grace of God, I may be more about the gospel than the law.

    When I was in the Army. There’s a song we sang a few times as we marched. It went like this:

    We are soldiers in the Army.
    We have to fight, or do we have to die?
    We’ve got to hold up that blood stained banner, O yeah!
    We’ve got to hold it up until we die.

    Well my brother, O yeah!, he was a soldier, O yeah!
    Well he took up that gospel vow.
    And one day he got hit. He couldn’t soldier no more,
    But he got up and fought anyhow….

  17. I don’t know about laws other than capital crimes, Ray. They did manage to stone Stephen. They thought they’d killed Paul and left him for dead. So, maybe they could exercise some authority. They were previously going to stone Jesus as well.

    Bo,

    Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    He had every right to judge. In fact he did. “Woe unto you…

    Mat 23:13-23, Luk 11:42-46

  18. I hadn’t thought about those stonings, Sheila.

    I believe the woman caught in adultery was very much in danger of loosing her life by stoning.

    I think again about what if Jesus wasn’t the one teaching at the temple that morning, but then again, I suppose the scribes and Pharisees were not going to bring her to anyone else but him.

    I’ve heard it said that the work the devil does often will defeat his own purposes.

    The Bible speaks of those who oppose themselves, (II Tim 2:25) and I assume that to be the work of the devil also.

  19. Now I find myself wondering if the people at that time were more likely to stone someone for the sake of the gospel than for adultery.

  20. Ray,

    Jeremiah 31
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    I am not more about the law than the gospel. I am about Messiah dying for our sins to reconcile us to YHWH. The problem is that you do not realize what the results of the gospel entail when it is true in one’s life. Obedience is the result of real grace in our lives. The New Covenant causes us to love YHWH’s law, and because of that love, we do it. YHWH’s law is “written on our hearts” via the New Covenant. That Hebrew idiom means that we love it…not that it is magically or mystically known by us. The law of YHWH is the law of YHWH. It means the same thing From Jeremiah and to John and from Abraham to Paul.

    John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    We do not love YHWH if we do not want to keep His commandments. Real love toward YHWH is that we keep His commandments…and we find them a joy, instead of a burden. Both John and Paul tell us that the law describes what sin is.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Faith and grace do not exempt us from the law.

    Romans 3
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    We are relegated to least in the kingdom if we neglect to do and teach even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments.

    Matthew 5
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    It is a carnal mind that cannot subject itself to YHWH’s law. We are not allowed in if we refuse to subject ourselves to YHWH’s law.

    Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

    Children of Abraham do the works of Abraham. He kept YHWH’s law. Messiah did not come to free us from obedience but from disobedience/sin…this is real deliverance from bondage.

    Genesis 26
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    John 8
    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed…
    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?…
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    Servants of YHWH do His righteousness.

    1 John 3
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    John 8
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    You do not see me wholly. You see me on a website speaking to believers. Believers that I think misunderstand Paul. Believers that think that grace exempts them from the law of YHWH. Believers that YHWH wants to great instead of least in His kingdom. They do not need to hear about Y’shua dieing for their sins. These need to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Without holiness according to the scripture we will not see YHWH.

    There are two sides to a coin. We cannot eliminate one side and still have a coin. No matter how thin and worn out the coin has 2 sides. If we eliminate one side, we eliminate both sides.

    Revelation 14
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Do we love Messiah? Keep His commandments. Do we love the Father like Messiah did? Keep the Father’s commandments. Is it possible to abide in Messiah without abiding in the Father?

    John 15
    10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

    I was never in the Army, but when I was in grade school we all knew that disobedience to our parents was not loving them. YHWH is our parent.

    We keep His rules because we love Him. We are able to keep His rules because He empowered us by the Spirit of Grace. If we can’t keep His rules, we need to check our minds for carnality. If we do not want to keep His rules, wee need to check our hearts to see if we have deceived ourselves.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    Jeremiah 17
    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    If we do not know His rules it is one thing. If we do not want to know them that is quite another.

  21. Sheila and Ray,

    The meaning of judge that is passing a sentence against or executing a judgment against someone is what I and the passages that I listed are speaking of. There is a difference between telling someone that they are wrong or that they deserve something (or even that thew will get something if they do not repent) and giving them what they have coming. Messiah will do the latter later. He did not do that when He was in the flesh. He will reward every man according to his deeds at their resurrection.

    Revelation 22
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Matthew 7
    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

    Yes all judgment is in Messiah’s hands. No it was not his job or ministry while He was in the Flesh. I guess I should have defined my terms.

  22. In case you did not notice, I posted a reply to you…#43 above. – Bo

    Not to be rude brother Bo, but the only issue is whether or not you said this adulterer, along with all others, should just be stoned on the spot, so long as the witnesses are available. That’s all that matters. I’m glad my answer (recognizing the specialness of the situation of when the law was given, under God’s theocratic rule, with which came great glory but also great responsibility) aligns with what Michael said as well in his post.

    CLARIFICATION: I, and I’m sure many others here, are certainly not saying there is never a time for the death penalty. Unfortunately your original quote had ‘murderers’ in it right alongside adulterers and homosexuals. Also you had evil gang members — if that meant a person who has just perpetrated a violent homicide, again, of course that brings the possibility of capital punishment for those of us who believe in capital punishment. I in fact believe it is a sign of the lostness of the West that they outlaw capital punishment, whose foundation was given in Genesis 9 to Noah, thus to all of humanity. But for adultery, not even ancient Israel seems to have really practiced the death penalty for that (not rape, but consensual adultery).

  23. Ray: These discussions on the law can be endless, but I would encourage you to research what Jesus’ view on the Law was. I believe it was very positive, i.e. not all about legalism and judgmentalism, which seems to be the way you view it (and probably most of the church today, I understand). Rather its very heart beat was LOVE and MERCY!

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices– mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important (/ ‘weightier’) matters of the law– justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
    – Matthew 23:23

    The Greek word they translated ‘mercy’ – ἔλεος – means: Mercy, compassion, pity, kindness. This is what Jesus taught was one of the weightiest matters of the Law of Moses, along with Love, Justice (fairness), and faithfulness.

    The Law does not get us saved, but it is still a good and beautiful thing, because it reveals God’s standards and ways. Even his mercy and love.

  24. Nicholas,

    Thank you for replying. If you have read the link and my post 43, do you think that either makes sense of the situation in John 8? I am not allowed to talk about the death penalty for our day and age so I will have to leave your comments about that completely alone.

    Shalom

  25. Sheila and Ray,

    Joh 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

    Acts 7
    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.

    Acts 14
    19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

    I recognize that Steven was stoned, but it was not legal according to Rome for it to be done. The same goes for Paul. These stonings were also against scripture. Both of these instances were mob stonings and not done according to Torah in a court of law with valid testimony. Paul did end up reaping what he had sown, though he was forgiven by Messiah.

    Acts 22
    19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
    20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
    21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

    Acts 9
    13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
    14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
    15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
    16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

    1 Corinthians 15
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

  26. I appreciate Dr. Brown for taking a stern stance against advocacy for the execution of millions of people.

    What Bo said has bothered me for days… it brought back a little PTSD, for me.

    I was a missionary in a part of the world where villagers executed adulterers — typically with the family participating and sometimes with their children watching (usually it was only the woman being stoned.)

    That experience deeply affected me.

    I saw nothing “loving” about dragging an accused woman from her home, taunting her and then killing her. It was barbaric and tremendously unjust. (To be clear, I never personally saw it done, but it was commonly reported, often with pictures)

    Ironically, I agree with Bo about Romans 1: adulterers _do_ deserve death.

    Above, Bo said,

    >> I am honestly wondering what is the difference between what I said and what Paul said here:
    >> Romans 1
    >> 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    >> 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet…
    >> 29 Being filled…fornication… murder…
    >> 30…disobedient to parents…
    >> 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    >>
    >> Are they not worthy of death?

    But, Paul _DID NOT_ say that!

    Along with murderers and adulterers, Paul also includes gossips, foolish, slanderers, boastful, the heartless and many others as worthy of death.

    In summary… all of us. THAT is Paul’s point.

    What Bo did to the scriptures — edit it to apply _only to others_ — is how I saw the death penalty applied in those primitive cultures.

    Only the weak, the poor, minorities, Christians and other outsiders were stoned to death or shot in the head. Never the powerful, the rich, the famous, the mullahs, and similar.

    In that country, this meant the humiliation and murder of a whole lot of lovely young women. (Here in America, it means a whole lot of young black men.)

    But, no matter where you stand on the issue of the death penalty, let’s be clear — Paul was preaching grace and mercy, not execution.

  27. Greg,

    What humiliation and murder of young black men in this country is going on? Who is shooting them in the head and stoning them?

    My “edit” was for brevity and to point out the specific cases I cited. That is about all I can say on the matter as per my agreement.

    For the record I agree with every word of that passage including homosexuals being worthy of death. You do not believe this and are using rhetoric for character assassination. You do not believe that those that murder their unborn babies deserve death. The stonings that you almost witnessed were not done according to YHWH’s law.

    I am not allowed to address the rest of your post and actually Dr. Brown told everyone to drop it. You are disregarding His instructions. Is it correct for you to attack the defenseless in this matter? Is that not what you are attempting to preach against in your post above?

  28. Greg,

    Here is one more thing that I can address:

    You wrote:
    “Ironically, I agree with Bo about Romans 1: adulterers _do_ deserve death.”

    You do not agree with Bo or the Bible. Messiah said that those that are divorced and remarried are adulterers.(With only one exception.) Most every case in America does not meet the exception clause. We already know that you do not accept scriptures stance against homosexuality. My edit of the passage was for a specific reason, and not to purposely leave out information, but to focus on specifics.

    You, on the other hand, deceitfully and permanently edit scripture to justify rebellion and sin…helping people to enjoy this life according to their lusts and helping them down the wide road to destruction.

    So who is showing real mercy and love and who is not?

  29. Bo,

    Black men get executed at a MUCH HIGHER rate than do white murderers.

    That’s my point.

    America applied the death penalty selectively. In our society, it’s black men. In the Muslim cultures I know, it’s young women.

    That’s my point.

    (This point, BTW, applies more to Jesus being anti-death penalty for the woman caught in adultery than it does to Romans 1.)

    In my former post, I was just noting how you revised Romans 1 so that it applied only to people _you_ deem worthy death. This is just like the fundamentalist mullahs I saw overseas.

    Well, gotta go.

  30. Greg,

    You accuse me falsely. My edit was for focus, not to exclude and statement or truth in that passage. Where are the statistics that prove your statement about executions?

    Hopefully, “Well, gotta go.” is not the second part of a hit and run against the truth.

  31. Greg,

    Messiah was not anti death penalty for the woman caught in adultery or any other capital case. He was pro torah/law and pro justice. There were no witnesses willing to actually testify when called on. No one believes that a person should be put to death with no testimony against them.

  32. Greg asserted a very extreme position about young black men. Of course he probably got his information from some liberal source…as he freely admits that he is a liberal. I am guessing that he didn’t do any math or seek out the other side of the story. I could be wrong. I couldn’t resist googling it. The vast majority of the top listed sites are advocates of the liberal agenda. Eventually I found a truly statistical site.

    For those interested in seeing if blacks are discriminated against on death row, I found this statistical analysis interesting. The New York Times and NPR are probably not employing dry, detailed mathematicians to write their stories. it seems that only Pennsylvania is out of proportion against blacks and the majority of the southern states are out of proportion against whites. Even if you are not a math genius, you might want to try to suffer through the explanation of the methodology of the calculations and look at the tables and map of the results.

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/DP.htm

  33. I know I’m a little late to the party here but I’m so shocked by Bo’s statement that I want to weigh in.

    If the death penalty were in effect for all capital crimes listed in the Torah and those professing Christ were the executioners (Bo, you’d be willing, I assume, to kill sinners) then many would be dead and therefore without the opportunity to hear the Good News! They wouldn’t know that they can receive forgiveness in Christ and live a life free of sin! They would never witness a Christ-like life of grace and love lived-out before them so they’d see the goodness of God that would lead them to repentance!

    This is the day of salvation, not stoning.

    Jesus didn’t free the woman caught in adultery because there weren’t enough witnesses. She was caught in the act and so there were witnesses.

    Jesus released her because there was no one there without sin to stone her!

    “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (John 8:7).

    Bo, you couldn’t have stoned her, neither could I. Nobody posting here could have cast the first stone. Jesus did away with stoners and replaced them with disciples who preach His gospel.

    Jesus didn’t “drop the charges against her because the requirements of the Law for her execution had not been met” as the link you provided suggests.

    Jesus ushered in a higher law, even harder to live than the law of Moses, but by the power of the Holy Spirit it can be done. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    The Sermon on the Mount is for today, not some future time!

    Thank you for allowing me to express my thoughts.

  34. It’s been a while since I’ve commented here, but after reading what Bo said (which affects me very personally) I just felt I had to say something.

    Bo said:

    “I was not advocating for bringing back the death penalty for such things. I was stating a fact that society would be better place if the nations of this world followed the justice system of YHWH’s law concerning these things.”

    Talk about being delusional. How is that not advocating for the death penalty? You just said that a society that would enact such laws would be a better, more “righteous” society, and that these laws would be the “correct and loving way to deal with terrible situations” (because of course the existence of gays presents such a “terrible situation”). As someone who happens to be gay, I find it extremely disturbing that someone can see a law that would sentence me to death for who I am as “righteous” and “loving”. Shame on you Bo. This is exactly the sort of thing that gives your religion a bad name.

    And as much as I disagree with virtually everything Dr. Brown has said on issues concerning homosexuality, I’m glad that he at least took a firm stance against your outrageous comments. I really hope you come to realize just how wrong you were in saying what you did.

  35. Pile on everyone, my shoulders are broad.

    Dr. Brown,

    May I answer my accusers? If not will you please remove their posts?

    Shalom

  36. Greg, Amy, James, Nicholas and others,

    If you want to have a discussion about what did happen in the scripture or what the scripture says is right or wrong, I can post about that.

    If you want to beat me up with me having no option of defending myself, shame on you. As a matter of fact, no one is even allowed to come to my rescue. Continue to stone me without a fair trial if you like, but you have proved my point entirely if you do.

  37. And no, I am not mad or even sad about it. I think that is ironically humorous. It also frees me of hours of time and energy.

    Shalom

  38. Amy,

    Did you read my post #43? The scriptures are printed out there for you to read. Most people make the mistake of interpreting the Newer Testimony without being familiar with the foundation of it…the Older Testimony. When we get our ideas from ourselves, our cultures and our peers, instead of form immediate context and greater context of scripture, we often do not see the forest for the trees…or maybe it is more like we cut down a tree and bring it home and proclaim, “Honey, I’m home! I brought you a forest home. Where is the xmas tree stand?”

    Shalom

  39. James,

    I appreciate your situation. I am sorry that you find yourself on the receiving end of the sword of the Spirit, when it unequivocally calls your lifestyle an abomination. You can be set free from sin if you will turn to YHWH with your whole heart and repent of your sin. You do need to know that if you continue to practice homosexuality, you will not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. If that does not matter to you, I have nothing further to say to you on the subject.

    If you consider yourself a disciple of Messiah and do not repent of your abominable sexual practices, you have deceived yourself. Calling Him lord without doing what He and His Father instructed is destined to lead to Him saying, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” I know that the emotional and habitual cost will be high for you, but what you will receive will be well worth it.

    Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Matthew 7
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Shalom

  40. Amy,

    You wrote:
    “Jesus ushered in a higher law, even harder to live than the law of Moses, but by the power of the Holy Spirit it can be done. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

    The passage that you quote does not contrast the Law of Moses with what Messiah taught. The “but” in the passage is not there in the Greek. If you will do a study on the Biblical phrase “grace and truth” in the Hebrew which is “checed and emeth” You will find that the idea is about YHWH’s devoted loving kindness and faithfulness to us. As a matter of fact the Law is part of that loving kindness and faithfulness.

    Ex 34:6 the LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, “the LORD, the LORD, a god merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,
    7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Ps 40:11 do not thou, O LORD, withhold thy mercy from me, let thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness ever preserve me!

    “Grace and truth/steadfast love and faithfulness” are not new in Messiah. He is the completion of all that it means. By YHWH’s mercy/loyalty and faithfulness to us Messiah came to deliver us from sin and death.

    The law tells what the righteous standard is. When we realize that we have not met it, is when we desire mercy and truth and are ripe to receive it. We could never have experience real grace and truth without the law existing. They do not contradict each other but are perfect complements. If the law does not exist or have any bearing, there is no such thing as grace. With no law, there is no sin and grace is the free gift of forgiveness and the power to overcome sin.

    Messiah taught the law, not only accurately, but filled it up with all of its meaning. When He talked about commandment #7 He combined it with the 10th to explain the whole meaning and show the consequences that are implied. He did not replace the law about adultery or covetousness/lust, He taught us to connect the dots between them. The same goes for the rest of His teachings.

    He cannot in Matthew 5, in one breath, tell us that the greatest in the kingdom will do and teach every last least commandment and in the next that it is not in effect. He can tell us that to do and teach everything YHWH said that we must also teach how YHWH’s commandments correlate and magnify one another. He simply did not come to abolish/destroy/make void the law. He came to offer the loving kindness and faithfulness of YHWH to those that would commit to following YHWH with their whole heart.

    Ps 25:10 all the paths of the LORD are steadfast love and faithfulness, for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies.

    Shalom

  41. Let’s try that again:

    “He can tell us [remove “that”] to do and teach everything YHWH said [and] that we must also teach how YHWH’s commandments correlate and magnify one another.

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