The Annual Christmas Debate

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Should believers celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th? Should they celebrate His birth at all? Is Christmas pagan? Should believers have a Christmas tree? This is your day to call in and share your views! Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:      

 

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: For those who say “Jesus is the reason for the season”, make Him known without shame and take advantage of this time of the year to do it.

 

Hour 2: 

 

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: If you’re going to exalt Jesus, exalt Jesus without mixture.

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Other Resources:

The Annual Christmas Debate (2012)

It’s The Annual Christmas Debate! (2011)

A Compromised Gospel Produces Compromised Fruit; and How to Make Your Life Count

94 Comments
  1. I’m trying to figure this out…If we don’t read about Jesus doing something, (like buying a Christmas tree for example) it must be bad. Is that it? Did I get it right?

  2. One day we will all have to come to terms with what we did with Jesus. The entire big picture of things will be revealed and also what part each of us played in it.

    If we did well, we will be so blessed and thankful that we did well, but if we did not do well, how will we feel?

    Anyone can use a Bible. Some use it wisely. Some use it in wrong ways.

    If we misuse the Bible, what do we do with the image of God? (Isaiah 52:14)

  3. @Ray
    I completely agree that people misuse the Bible and one day everyone will see the full revelation of who Jesus is. However, make sure you put no trust in your own performance, your own righteousness. Your only hope is that the perfect life of Jesus might be credited to you in order to reconcile you to God. You are to exam your self and see that the Lord is conforming you to His image through the work of the Holy Spirit who is given to every believer. We are also to see the sin in our life and realize the deeper that we grow in Christ, the deeper the layers of sin that are exposed. If we think repenting of surface level sin is what is acceptable to God, or that we somehow grow to a place where we no longer need the rightousness of Jesus credited to us then we take Him down and reject Him as Savior. He must be Savior and Lord, not just Lord, and not simply Savior. We submit to Him for Salvation bringing no righteousness of our own. Have a great day. Praise the God who entered in to His creation to save we who hated Him, His righteousness and His sovereign rule.

  4. If it’s 99% God and 1% Satan than its all Satan. God will not share even 1% of His glory with anyone! Just my take. Shalom

  5. Ryan, remember that I wasn’t excluding myself when I said that we all will see the big picture and all that we have done.

    I bring this up because of something I learned when I was in the Army. As a private in a new unit we went on some field training, and as a private one only can see what is around his small world.

    He doesn’t know what his part plays in the big picture. Sometimes he thinks what he does is of little or no importance.

    I missed an opportunity that was right in front of me. Someone else next to my unit did not miss it when it came to them and it was very important to the turn of the whole exercise, something I didn’t know, until the entire batallion was briefed afterward.

    I felt the burden of how I had failed.

    I’ve also had the opportunity to feel the reward of doing well.

    Though we are not saved by our works but rather by our faith in Christ and his work of atonement, there are times, many times when we must in some way bear the results of the work we have done, and there are a few times when we may rejoice because the Lord caused us to do well because of God’s grace to us by and through him, to whom we are to give all the glory and honor he deserves.

    Though we partake in the grace given us by the gospel, it’s always the Lord’s work that saved us
    and gives us a reason to rejoice.

  6. One thing to remember about these debates about Christmas is that it is the season when the religious police come out and try to enforce their own laws or rules concerning it.

  7. Ryan,

    I also think that we are to live holy and moral and obedient lives according to every word of YHWH in the scriptures. Not to become righteous, but because he has made us righteous. We are to walk out that righteousness. We cannot be hearers only of YHWH’s instructions without falling into self deception, according to James. John says that we are deceived if we think that we are righteous and not doing righteousness. The scripture that Paul was referring to for Timothy to be instructed in righteous living and good works and doctrine is commonly called the “Old Testament.” Walking in holiness is more than just morality and without it no one will see YHWH.

    Holiness and righteous are not nondescript ideas that are determined individually by each of us. There are very concrete things that are quite clear in the scriptures as to what these are. Morality is a part of each of them, but not the totality of either.

    This is why we need to renew our minds in the whole of scripture and present our bodies as living sacrifices in accordance with what is written in them. The scripture does not give us contradictory concepts about holiness and righteous living.

    1 Corinthians 6
    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    Ch.7
    1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    Xmas does not fit with the things that the Bible describes as holiness. There is very little of the modern celebration of it that fits with righteousness. And it seems to breed immorality of varying sorts and degrees.

    YHWH can use anything if He has to. Asses sometimes speak to prophets. Fish sometimes gather money for our taxes. We do not expect these to be the normal way that YHWH works in our lives though. Sometimes our actions bring about situations that necessitate YHWH using things that He would rather not for our sakes.

    He sometimes has to get our attention through diseases and calamities. He can use a drunk man at a bar to say something to convict us of our sin. But is that the way He would rather do it? He will be faithful to His children no matter what, but would it not be better for us do things His way to start with?

    1 John 2
    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    YHWH can use xmas. Does He want to…or have we limited Him by our not walking in holiness? Holiness of necessity makes us stand out from the world. How much of xmas is not the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life? How much of it is being friends with the world?

    Matthew 10
    34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Will we persist in participating in compromise for the sake of peace, or will we bow to the Prince of peace and let the sword divide father from son and mother from daughter. The Prince of peace came not to bring peace but a sword. The sentimentality of xmas is a trap. Do we really believe that the prophets of old would be found encouraging xmas? Think about that for a minute.

    The thought process that says, “Where does the Bible say we cannot do such and such?” is indicative of justifying our actions instead of truly seeking to do what is best. Looking for loopholes is not exactly loving YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. When there is a better way, why do we not take it?

    YHWH designed His feasts to be pictures of Messiah’s redemptive work. These feasts of YHWH are so pervasive in scriptural thought that the writers of the New Testimony used them as time markers when speaking to the “Gentile churches.” YHWH has painted the picture that He wants us to see. When we paint our own picture and present it to the world, it at least detracts and distracts them from the perfect picture. Xmas is one of those man made works of art. It has gotten so big that the real art is all but completely covered up.

    Exodus 20
    25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

    Is there a better way than xmas? Can the invention of man really add anything of importance or of benefit to what YHWH has designed? Is xmas not a polluted altar that has been sculpted by man? Is there really anything in scripture about glorifying the manhood of Messiah? Eating His flesh is about spiritual food. Oohing and awing over a baby in a manger is not what Messiah came to produce. He became flesh at conception, not at His birth.

    Le 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

    Is the best way to declare Messiah in our self made celebrations of His birth or in the way He said to celebrate His death by keeping Passover? Is fasting for the 40 days of Lent or keeping the feast of unleavened bread a better picture of YHWH’s purpose? Lent is about us giving up something before Messiah is sacrificed for us. The feast of unleavened bread is about us partaking of Messiah’s sinless nature after He poured out His blood for us. Lent is sacrifice. Unleavened Bread is obedience. To obey is better than sacrifice.

    1 Samuel 15
    22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

    Xmas is us offering what we want when we want to on a defiled altar. Keeping the feasts of YHWH are submitting ourselves to YHWH’s plan of salvation. The carnal minded man just cannot make himself subject to YHWH’s rules. The carnal man wants to do it his own way.

    Romans 8
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Subjecting our minds to YHWH’s Torah, His instructions, about how and when and what to celebrate is a spiritual thing. A carnally minded man just cannot bring himself to do this. He would rather invent His own feasts and proclaim that it is pleasing to YHWH. It is sad, but that is what xmas is.

    Shalom

  8. Ray,

    One thing to remember is that deception is deceptive and the one deceived does know when he is deceived…especially when he is deceiving himself and others are encouraging him because they are deceived also.

    Jeremiah 5
    31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    Shalom

  9. That should have been “Keeping the feasts of YHWH are [about] submitting ourselves to YHWH’s plan of salvation.”

  10. When in different nations with differing customs at Christmas, it becomes obvious that one’s orientation of meaning relates to one’s practices, hopes, fears, some traditions of personal association, and some observances. Unlike Bo, under Christ, we do not need a command or direct verse of instruction, to freely worship, observe, and find related meaning to Christ among us, with us, and historically born to enjoy the love shared in families at Christmas. Giving gifts requires no special permission, liking trees and lights has no inherent pagan label (as these appear too in nature and in other forms of decoration and artistic splendor). In short, the liberty we have in Christ can permeate our own heartfelt songs, hugs, direct eye contact, smiles, and comman observances of gathering together.

  11. Bo, How does watching a football game, or drinking a beer fit with the whole word of God?

    Are those things always sin?

    I’ve heard that one beer a day is good for one’s health, but it’s so easy to fall far behind.

  12. I suppose one could hold the view that since the Bible contains everything pertaining to life and godliness, then anything not given specific mention to do, must be something that has nothing to do with life or godliness and therefore is sin.

    I though am not one to hold to that view.

  13. Christmas day has come and gone and now I look forward to New Years.

    I find it interesting that if indeed our Lord was born on Sep 11th 3 BC, since I’ve heard that that particular day was Tishri 1 (as I recall) and that Tishri 1 was like our New Years, ….well I find it intersting that the day that came to be known as a time of celebrating the birth of Christ
    is so close to New Years Day.

    I also heard that trumpets were blown on Tishri 1, and that trumpets were also known to be blown to recognize a new king.

    New Years also has had a few noisemakers hasn’t it? Not quite the same thing of course. Just a thing of interest.

  14. Ray,

    If you are going to spend a whole day drinking beer to your god or watching football to your god, and proclaim it a feast to YHWH and get the vast majority of the religious and the heathen alike to join you on the day that the pope sanctioned such worship and go into debt buying beer and beer mugs and flat screen TVs and NFL tickets and proclaim that it is in honor of the day that Messiah played catch with His disciples and refreshed himself with a pint…I would say that you would be inventing your own tradition, commandment and doctrine of men that turns from the truth.

    And if you did the above “Holiday” instead of actually keeping the feasts that YHWH set up, I would say that your worship was vain…just like Messiah told the Pharisees for doing much the same thing.

    There are examples in the scripture of men that set up their own supposed feasts to YHWH. Why do you want to participate in the modern version of such apostasy?

    Exodus 32
    1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
    2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
    3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
    4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
    5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
    6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
    7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
    8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them…

    So the above people invested much wealth in creating their own “feast to the Lord.” They even had the leader of their congregation give his approval. This is what happens when we forget to believe Moses forever as YHWH wanted us to do.

    Ex 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

    But if you will not hear/obey Moses and the prophets, you will not hear/obey the one that rose from the dead either.

    Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    I guess you could copy a real feast of YHWH and just change the date. Is that acceptable?

    1 Kings 12
    26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
    27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah…
    32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
    33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

    1Ki 14:16 And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin.

    1Ki 15:30 Because of the sins of Jeroboam which he sinned, and which he made Israel sin, by his provocation wherewith he provoked the LORD God of Israel to anger.

    2Ki 10:31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.

    Xmas is a feast that man has devised of their own heart. It is a replacement of YHWH’s true feasts. It could be said that the spirit of xmas is the spirit of Jeroboam that continues to cause YHWH’s people to sin. It is time to depart from the sins of Jeroboam and return to walking in YHWH’s instructions. Over and over Jeroboam is mentioned as the one that caused Israel to sin. It his his legacy. Because of this stumbling block, Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians and scattered into all the nations of the earth.

    So you can have your Beer and Football worship day or you can have your invented “feast to the Lord” or you can change the date of YHWH’s feast for your own convenience or you can participate in xmas…it is all the same. Enjoy it while you can.

    You can be your own king making the rules for your little kingdom. Or you can repent and begin to walk in YHWH’s law and He will circumcise your heart and the heart of your children and gather you from all the nations that He has scattered you and bring you back to His land and you will rule and reign with Him a thousand years.

    Deuteronomy 30
    1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
    5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
    6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

    Shalom

  15. It bugs me when the Pagans accuse us Christians of “stealing” the winter solstice.

    Worse, are the anti-Christians who think they have a “gotcha” when they learn that the timing of Christmas is from German paganism (or whatever).

    Pagans don’t own the winter solstice!

    We Christians have every right to align our holidays with the solar calendar. The winter solstice has beautiful imagery that reflects the birth of the Messiah.

    If our celebration aligns with the pagans — fine! It gives us one less thing to fight over.

  16. Greg,

    You wrote:
    “We Christians have every right to align our holidays with the solar calendar.”

    What scriptures do you have to back that up?

  17. Why is that a man who has a bottle of whiskey in his house that lasts a year or more, because he likes to flavor a soda drink with just a bit of it, and that only on occasion, or will have some around because of it’s health benefit, is treated as if he is a drunk, worshipping his flesh above all else, or a man who buys a Christmas tree is treated as a pagan?

    There may be those who would tell a man that he shouldn’t have a Christmas tree, for Why should he keep a temptation around, as it might cause him to get carried away from God during the holidays?

    To some a Christmas tree might be a temptation, but not to everyone.

    Show me a half full bottle of whiskey in a man’s house that’s over a year old, and I’ll tell you if it’s a temptation or not.

    I’m not saying that people could not get carried away with too much holiday cheer or shopping, I’m just saying, we shouldn’t be so quick to judge things we really don’t know anything about.

    That’s the kind of judging Jesus was against. He was never against the kind where people went to a brother with a cause of oppression because he first went to his brother and was not heard, with the ministry being one of reconciliation by the good news of God.

    All the condemning of people for getting a Christmas tree that goes on during Christmas debates, simply because they bought a tree, isn’t from God at all.

    It comes from the fact that their heart hasn’t turned to God, the proof being that the vail is still there. The law was meant to turn a man’s heart to God for salvation.

    II Cor 3:14-16.

  18. Ray,

    Does the liberty that the Spirit brings allow us to disobey YHWH’s word? You can have a barrel of vodka in your house and drink some every day, but it is wrong to be drunk. Obviously we are not free to be drunk.

    YHWH has told us what His feasts are. To disobey is the same as being drunk. The apostles didn’t proclaim xmas as a feast to YHWH.

    If we do not have any booze in our house but go to the bar to get drunk, it is still wrong. Man made religion is not freedom in the Spirit. Xmas is not of the same character as the Biblical feasts. We are free in the Spirit, but also slaves to righteousness. We are bought with a price out of slavery to sin. How much freedom does a slave have? He is only free to obey his master.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    We are not under the law, but we are not allowed to break it. Transgressing it is sin. YHWH has given us His version of Holiness. It does not include making up our own feasts or joining in with customs of our culture and the way it has invented to worship.

    1 Peter 2
    16 Live like free men, only do not make your freedom a pretext for doing evil, but live like slaves of God. (Williams)

    16 Exercise your freedom by serving God, not by breaking the rules. (The Message)

    Leviticus 18
    3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
    4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
    5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 12
    30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
    31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
    32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    Do not add thereto, not diminish from the way that YWHH has commanded us to worship. Xmas is an addition. Not keeping YHWH’s feasts is diminishing from it.

    Shalom

  19. “When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.” – Matthew 2:10

    And likewise, there is nothing wrong (and every thing right!) with our rejoicing over His birth 🙂

    Shalom!

  20. This short story is designed to solidify certain someones and not to sound sarcastic. Should someone surrender to several suggestions submitted herein, the submitter shall suddenly shout for joy.

    Someones and Sometimes

    Once upon a sometime there was a Creator of a universe. He created everything. There was nothing and no one before this. He created the somthing first and the someones after.

    He situated the sun, satellite and stars in the sky as signposts of His time schedule. He set up certain sometimes to meet with the someones that He created and loved…and He shared some specifics concerning these in a sacred scroll. He santified a shabbat for the someones and showed them, by His supreme example, how to keep it set it apart…because they were His special someones. Once a week, on the seventh day of the week, they rested from their labors…just like their creator showed them.

    The other santified sometimes that this Creator set up were for proclaiming and celebrating special events that the Creator had planned in advance. He knew that His someones would one day rebel against Him and He already had a plan to woo them back to Him and too purchase them back from the slavery into which they would sell themselves.

    It happened. The someones believed the lie that they were smart enough to make their own decisions… that their creator was holding them back…that they were in slavery. They wanted their freedom and they were going to get it. They got themselves released from the garden that served as a prison. At least, that is how they remember it. Now they were free to make their own decisions and build their own garden and work for themselves. Free!…Free?

    They built cities instead of gardens. They worked for other someones instead of for themselves. They had no rest. They forgot what love was like. The invented their own kind of rest. Amusement! They could participate in that anytime. No waiting for the end of the week. No keeping sometimes. Freedom!…Freedom?

    Every once in a while, a someone would stumble upon an old scroll that seemed to make no sense. It had everything backwards, they thought. There was not much in it about amusement or making one’s own rules. It seemed to be about slavery and keeping time by an outdated method that didn’t make sense to city dwellers and city builders. It couldn’t be obeyed by those that worked for other someones.

    Every once in a great while, a someone tried to do what the outdated scroll said and they would realize that cities were not as nice as gardens and that amusement gave no lasting peace and joy. They realized that going by the santified schedule and celebrating the sometimes in the old scroll was fun and fulfilling. They planted gardens. They smiled a lot.

    The city someones were perplexed by this. It made most of them sad. It made some of them angry. “These submitted someones are in bondage and need to be released,” they shouted. The submitted someones didn’t want to be released or forced, as they called it, to go back to a sad city someone way of life. During city someone versus submitted someone debates about this situation, other city someones got to hear a little of the old sacred scroll and tried it. Some of them planted gardens and started smiling. This made the city someones really angry. “Bondage!” they proclaimed. Bondage?

    The city someones had invented some special sometimes of their own using their own ideas and their own schedule and incorporated amusements into them. They didn’t rest much, but ran around to shopping malls buying gifts for each other so that their city-style sometimes would be fun and amusing. They even had two sometimes that were supposed to honor the Creator in a city someone sort of way. They smiled…but only when things were amusing.

    The submitted someones tried to convince the city someones that the old scroll sometimes were significantly superior and were set up by the Creator for all someones as a blessing to them. They tried to help the city someones see that they were still making their own decisions instead of submitting to the Creator, even in their two religious sometimes. The city someones were irate so they used their ipods and iphones and their ibooks to solidify themselves against the old scroll sometimes and someones.

    They all lived happily ever after until a certain someone came on a certain sacred sometime to gather his submitted someones. This certain someone was the one that the old book sometimes were designed to celebrate. The city someones shouted simultaneously, “Sovereign, sovereign surely we celebrated significantly enough to solidify our solidarity not to be considered to have stationed our skyscrapers on the sand!” Splat! The shattered steeples and obelisks and the sunken city streets succumbed and the sad city someones were surely stultified. The smiling submitted someones certainly survived the storm by standing solidly on the stone of obedience.

    The moral of the story:

    Surely to submit to the sacred scroll is substantially safer than to set up sacrificial self-styled worship situations.

    Shalom

  21. Bo, it’s not sin for people who are not required by God to keep feasts (which were for a people under the old covenant) if they don’t keep a feast.

    Some people preach the law as if it will bring people freedom, but it’s often captivity to a religious spirit which what they really work to bring others under.

    The gospel of Christ is contrary to the religious spirit that puts people under bondage, under carnal requirements of men who use the Bible to seek to justify their actions. When they do so it is misuse of the scripture.

    The spirit of religion not only misuses the Bible, it will use ANY writings to manipulate people, to control them, to put them under conditions, rules, and regulations.

    Sometimes the religious spirit will use some other book rather than the Bible, but the effect of it’s rule over people regardless of which writings it uses causes the same harm. It puts people under captivity while it promises them freedom.

    There are some Christians who enjoy the feast times of the Bible, but they do so not because they are required to by men or God, but because they willingly do so to the honor and glory of God.

    Those that walk in the liberty they have in Christ don’t go about to put everyone else under their own man made rules which may be a copy of what God once ordained.

  22. Ray,

    There are some people that are rebellious that think that any rule is bondage. The Bible says that sin is bondage and also that sin is the transgression of YHWH’s law.

    John 8
    33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    The same John wrote:

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    The carnal mind cannot subject itself to YHWH’s law. A man with a carnal mind might appear spiritual to himself and the religious people around him that are also unwilling and unable to be subject to YHWH’s law, but the word of YHWH cuts away the disguise with its simple truth.

    Romans 8
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    It will not matter how many passages of scripture I post, a rebellious, carnal man will be unable to see how biblical 2+2=4 until he repents.

    John 12
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    A rebellious spirit is a blind spirit when it comes to seeing, understanding and doing the truth. Messiah said that His Father’s word is truth. His Father’s law is part of His word. By it we are to be sanctified…not by reading it, but by putting it into practice. And it was not just for His Jewish disciples, but for those that were to believe through the apostles word.

    John 17
    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    Real freedom is being free to not sin…to obey YHWH’s law. A carnal minded man and a rebellious man just can’t do it, because He is not really free.

    2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage…
    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    Some have turned from YHWH’s holy commandment to false freedom. Some have a freedom that says that we are free from YHWH’s commandments…and in breaking them they are in bondage to sin, for sin is the transgression of YHWH’s holy commandments…His law. Some have become self deceived by reading/hearing YHWH’s law and not putting it into practice. YHWH’s law is perfect and liberty is in doing of it not in the ignoring and shunning of it.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Paul told Timothy to get his instruction in righteousness, and doctrine from the law…it was the only scripture of his day.

    2 Timothy 3
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    To be continued below:

  23. Continued from above:

    So we can wax worse and worse becoming more deceived, or we can obey what scripture says. All scripture. Every word that has proceeded from YHWH’s mouth. Not just a twisted idea of what Galatians says. Peter says that many twist Paul’s words to be in opposition to the rest of scripture to their own destruction by thinking that he was freeing us from keeping YHWH’s commandments.

    2 Peter 3
    15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
    16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
    17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

    And Messiah said the same thing about those that broke His Father’s law.

    Matthew 7
    19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

    And both Paul and Messiah were emphatic that their words were not to be misunderstood to mean that YHWH’s law was to be changed, outdated, outmoded, void, destroyed or replaced.

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    All of the law and prophets is not fulfilled yet. Heaven and earth are still here. We will be granted our position in the kingdom of heaven by how well we do and teach all of YHWH’s law right down to the smallest and seemingly insignificant commandment.

    As for Paul, he tried his best to silence those that thought that he was preaching that the law was voided by grace and faith. He wanted to be sure that we had no excuse for twisting his words to mean the opposite of what he intended.

    Sin is defined by the law:
    Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Faith does not void it:
    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Grace does not exempt us:
    Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    We are still in bondage to sin if our idea of grace allow us to break the law:
    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    The law is not bondage an death:
    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…

    What part of “God forbid.” do we not understand?

    Y’shua, John, James, Peter and Paul all agree. We sin when we break YHWH’s law. Grace is supposed to produce righteousness, not law breaking. Breaking YHWH’s law keeps us in bondage. We are free when we can keep YHWH’s law. Grace frees us to obey. Transgression of the law is still sin. We will be rewarded in the kingdom of heaven because of our faithfulness in doing and teaching others to do YHWH’s commandments. We will be blessed in our deeds if we keep it. It is the place to go to find out true doctrine, instruction in righteous living and know what the good works that YHWH has before ordained that we should walk in.

    If the above is not enough evidence, nothing will be. The religion that invents xmas, easter and lent, st. valentine’s day, halloween and mardi gras and refuses to keep YHWH’s feasts is rebellion and vain worship.

    To be continued below:

  24. Continued from above:

    Holiness (Separation to YHWH) is doing what YHWH says to do and refusing to be assimilated into the world around us. YHWH’s word is the word that sanctifies us (Separates us to YHWH)…but only if we obey it. Hearing it only is not enough. And without holiness, no one will see YHWH.

    Hebrews 12
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
    17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    It might be too late for some people to repent. They may have sold their birthrights for an xmas ham or an easter egg. Some may have already ruined their inheritance in the kingdom of YHWH. The root of bitterness is the attitude that says I will do what I want…I am free…I do not have to do what YHWH has commanded…I am immune to the curse. But according to the scripture, it will not turn out well for those that persist in in this root of bitterness…the root that bears gaul and wormwood.

    Deuteronomy 29
    18 lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go to serve the gods of those nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
    19 and it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the stubbornness of mine heart, to destroy the moist with the dry:
    20 the LORD will not pardon him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curse that is written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

    The heart of man is deceitful. It only matters (for our good) what is in our hearts when we are attempting to be obedient to YHWH’s commands. Otherwise it is wicked and deceiving us into thinking we are fine when we are not.

    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    We will receive according to our doings.

    Revelation 22
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    We were kicked out of the garden because we disobeyed a simple commandment. YHWH did not want rebellious man to eat from the tree of life and live forever that way. He placed a flaming sword at the entrance to keep the way of the tree of life…not to keep us away from the tree of life. That flaming sword is YHWH’s word…all of it. The way to the tree of life is narrow. Few find it. The carnal minded man will not be able to subject itself to YHWH’s law and stay on the path. In the end, by the grace of YHWH, those that have forsaken their own way of rebelliousness and kept His commandments will be allowed to eat from the tree of life once again.

    Matthew 24
    11 Then many false prophets will be raised up, and they will deceive many.
    12 And because lawlessness will increase, the love of many will grow cold.
    13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    False prophets have taught us to go against YHWH’s law, but those that keep their love for YHWH till the end will be saved.

    Jeremiah 5
    30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
    31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

    Do we love to have it so? What will be the end thereof?

    Shalom

  25. Ooops. I left out one verse…

    False prophets have taught us to go against YHWH’s law, but those that keep their love for YHWH till the end will be saved.

    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Jeremiah 5
    30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
    31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

    Do we love to have it so? What will be the end thereof?

    Shalom

  26. Bo, in your opinion, which of the following is the best way, A or B?

    A. Try to use Jesus to keep the law.

    B. Use the law in order to follow Christ.

  27. Bo,

    >>What scriptures do you have to back that up?

    To be clear — I reject the presumption that I need a bible verse for everything I believe or do.

    Besides the bible, there is general revelation, natural law, societal ethics, civil law, human kindness, common sense and the way my momma raised me.

    That being said, in the bible the Jewish holidays were aligned with the sun and the moon, weren’t they? Like Passover? (admittedly, this isn’t anything I’ve researched.) That’s precedent enough for me.

  28. Greg,

    They are not Jewish holidays. They are YHWH’s feasts and are commandments for Israel. Believers in Messiah are grafted into Israel. It might be something that you want to research if you have been grafted in.

    Le 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

    Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

  29. Ray,

    Enduring to the end is not simply believing in Messiah, but being obedient to YWHH.

    Re 14:12 Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.”

    Shalom

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