The Question of Hell and Eternal Punishment

[Download MP3]

Dr. Brown speaks with Edward Fudge, the author of The Fire that Consumes and an advocate of conditional immortality — meaning, only believers live forever, while the unsaved are destroyed. Your calls to challenge Mr. Fudge or to agree with his position are welcomed. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Whatever the precise nature of the final judgment to come, it is dreadful, it is irreversible, and it is of eternal consequence!

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: What the Church is taught or not is not the biggest issue, but the question is what does the Word of God say about the subject of Hell?

SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY!  

Dr. Brown’s just-written 420 page book Authentic Fire: A Response to John MacArthur’s Strange Fire, is about to be printed and will be shipped to you in plenty of time for the Christmas holidays. It is yours postage paid for a suggested donation of $25. (The print version of the book is only available through AskDrBrown Ministries.) US ONLY

Call 1-800-278-9978 or Order Online!

Other Resources:

Future Punishment Under Attack

The Devil and Demons: The Same Yesterday and Today?

“Ultimate Reconciliation,” Heaven, Hell, and Rob Bell: A Biblical Analysis.

98 Comments
  1. Dont Innuendo mr fudge , anthea because he believes in scriptures the bible 100% judge what he says according to scripture

  2. You could always catch etcers by saying . you say eternal death does not mean non-existence or ashes but eternally separated from GODs presence . and yet you say they will be tormented forever in the presence of GOD; Which is it REv 14:11? If we are made in the image of GOD does that mean. If GOD is all-powerful and knowledgeable, we are all -power and knowledgeable ? no! so if GOD alone is immortal then as a image we are only mortal soul and body

  3. Anthea,

    Guilt by association is not a valid form of argument. What does it matter if JWs also believe conditional immortality is true ?

    If orthodox Christians weren’t allowed to take a particular doctrinal stance on the basis of that stance being held in common with some cult, they would have to jettison a number of other doctrinal stances that are held to be orthodox today.

  4. Dr. Fudge is absolutely right on this issue. I was a hardcore “eternal conscience torment” guy for years, but once I devoted the time to really seek out the scriptures on it, I had to change my view to conditional immortality. Thank you Dr. Brown for having Fudge on!

  5. I find it curious that the most detailed description of hell – the account of Lazarus – is often neglected by modern Christians.

    I’ve heard some claim that this is a parable rather than a literal account of hell — but where in the text does Jesus indicate this a parable?

    I think this passage is ignored by Christians because the gap between heaven and hell is close enough to speak across.

    But, if you are “sola scriptura” don’t you have to believe this account as well?

  6. To Greg Allen and test what i say and tell me what you think? I believe Luke 16 is about Hades and the third heaven not hell for this parable or Allegory takes place before both the resurrection of Christ and the whole church. and if is about Hell, the new Heaven and new earth which come only at the great white throne judgement then has the resurrection happened 2 TIMOTHY 2:18? and Hades said torments not eternal torment.

  7. I do not believe heaven and hell is close enough to speak across.

    Those that are alive may speak to the Lord about something they can not communcate to one who has died. If the one who has died is with the Lord, the Lord may communicate something to that one.

  8. Never does it enter the mind of the believer to ask for some empirical evidence that such a place as hell exists or that an afterlife for biological organisms is even possible. Why bother with science when you have Bronze Age fairy tales? How come the Old Testament doesn’t even mention hell?

    Modern believers realize that if hell is real just about everyone they know including some family members will be going there. So naturally modern believers choose not to believe in hell because it seem like such an unfair punishment, infinite punishment for the supposed crime of unbelief.

    Once a person understands that fear is the tactic used to induce belief and hell is the tool used by this tactic they reject their religion. Try it you’ll like it.

  9. Hey Brody, was this the Nirvana song you heard?

    Jesus don’t want me for a sunbeam. ‘Cause sunbeams are not made like me.
    Don’t expect me to cry for all the reasons you had to die. Don’t ever ask your
    love of me.

    Don’t expect me to cry.
    Don’t expect me to lie.
    Don’t expect me to die for thee.

    I kind of doubt the Line of Fire people are aware of Nirvana’s thoughts about their particular religion. They are now and I’ll bet we don’t hear anymore Nirvana on Line of Fire radio.

    J

  10. Greg Allen,

    Sols scriptura does not mean that we take every statement literally. It means that that we only use the scripture for our authority for faith and practice. The story in Luke is a parable. Just like the other parables, it is meant to convey a message but is not literally true.

    Luke 16
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    The above statement clues us in to the fact that it is a parable. The rest of scripture does not teach that we are tormented in the next life if we have good things in this one, not that we have comforted in the next if we have evil happen to us in this one. This use of a word picture is much the same as the other parables. These are shocks to our mindset and cause us to think hard about the meaning behind the symbolism.

    Were we to believe that we receive comfort for evil and torment for good, we should also believe that we are actually physical wheat, or tares as the case may be, and that we have actual lamps without oil and so on. Here is the context of the parable:

    Luke 16
    11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
    12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?
    13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God…
    18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
    19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day…

    The parable is told to illustrate the end result of covetousness in general and remarriage after divorce in specific (since it is covetousness). We can lavish ourselves in this life or we can be faithful to serve YHWH with our resources and relationships. These are the fruit of our true spiritual condition. We can do righteously like Lazarus (Hebrew meaning is: Servant of Elohim) to the point of suffering and self sacrifice our first marriages (that may not be much more than sores and starvation and dogs licking us) for the sake of remaining faithful to our covenant with our one flesh spouses and our vows before YHWH…or we can take the easy way out and indulge ourselves with the another marriage. We can spend the vast majority of our money upon our creature comforts…or we can use our unrighteous mammon to ease the suffering of those around us.

    Will we be faithful in unrighteous mammon and that which is another man’s? Will we do right as far as money and marriage is concerned? According to the scripture we get one shot at a marriage unless death separates us from our spouse. Most everything beyond this is covetousness and having “another man’s” wife…adultery.

    1 Corintians 6
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    We see that living in adultery causes us to loose our inheritance in the kingdom of YHWH. Messiah said that those that divorce and remarry are living in adultery. It is sad and difficult to wrap our minds around, but 2+2+4. And just for the record, Greg, all homosexuality is lavishing ones self against what YHWH allows just as much as remarriage and will just as much disinherit us if we persist in it.

    The rich man in the parable evidently was meant to symbolize someone that persisted in a marriage with a subsequent spouse after a divorce because of a supposedly intolerable marriage. Lazarus (The servant of Elohim) symbolizes those that do what scripture commands no matter the hardship. This parable does not indicate the actual literal conditions of heaven and hell, but instead warns us against all forms of covetousness that will determine our reward if not repented of.

  11. Its interesting to note that the word HELL is not found in the language of the bible. It is neither a Hebrew, Greek or Latin word. We need to look at the words Sheol (Hades) and Gehenna.

    1.) Matthew uses this word Gehenna 7 times. Mark 3 times and Luke 1 time. John 0

    2.) Matthew uses this word Hades or Sheol 2 times. Mark 0 and Luke 2 times. John 0

    Paul never uses these terms in his ministry and James uses Gehenna as an example of the tongue. Revelation uses both in a Jewish apocalyptic manner as Mr.Fudge describes against judgment toward Jerusalem.

    The gospels quote Yeshua using these terms interchangeably toward Israel and Jerusalem in the form of Judgment. Gehenna as fire which is the Tanakh form of Judgment against nations and Israel.

    Outer darkness is the only place where men go after death according to Jude and Peter and this is the eternal state of man who die without Yeshua. This is also an ancient Jewish understanding as well.

    Shalom

  12. Van, do you hold to any belief of things spiritual or do you believe there is only a material existence and nothing is invisible to us?

  13. I am soooooo thankful that Dr. Brown had someone representing the “Conditional Immortality” view.

    I am Jewish and believed the traditional view for 20+ years until I actually studied some EVANGELICAL authors on this subject (pro). And the evidence (in my opinion) is overwhelming – Conditional immortality is true.

    The traditional doctrine of “eternal torture” has made God look like Hitlers friend. At least Hitler let people have food and a few hours of rest every now and then. This (false) doctrine has made millions of atheists!

    In case you do not know – “Conditional Immortality” is the biblical belief that the “immortality” of the soul is not inherent (Greek thinking) but conditional (Biblical thinking) upon receiving the gift of everlasting life through faith in Jesus (Yeshua). It is part and parcel of the gospel. God alone has immortality — anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God’s gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7).

    For centuries, church theologians have wrongly assumed the Greek doctrine of the immortality of all souls. Therefore, it is no wonder that the message of immortality has been completely dropped from modern preaching. I ask you, when have you ever heard a message offering “immortality” as part of the gospel presentation? It is almost never done, because today most people falsely assume the soul is already immortal. Yet, immortality through Jesus (Yeshua) alone is what the Jewish Apostle Paul preached:

    (He/Jesus), has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. (2 Timothy 1:9b-10)

    The future the lost face on judgment day is 1) suffering in proportion for their sins – then 2) destruction. (Matthew 10.28)

    Yet all the lost will not receive same amount of suffering for their sins – before they are destroyed. God will see that they receive the exact amount of “stripes” they deserve. Some (like Hitler) will receive very many “stripes”. Others will receive “few” as Yeshua (Jesus) says. After they have received their appropriate “stripes,” then they will “perish” as John 3:16 states. (“perish” “apollumi” in Greek: be destroyed).

    The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23, Revelation 2:11), not eternal existence in torment. Ezekiel states clearly that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position.

    For a great website written from an evangelical position visit http://www.jewishnotgreek.com

    It also has a section of “answering the supposed verses that traditionalists use.”

    God bless Dr. Brown for being FAIR MINDED!

  14. Is it possible that some of those who have received the new birth could fall away and become worse than they were prior to the new birth?

    Might they become unrepentant, given a hard heart by God’s judgment because of their behavior?

    Might they have fallen all the way down?

    Might they be condemned to hell, a firey ending to their spiritual life, left then to be only a soul, one that continues to suffer forever?

    Suppose they died spiritually, and survived as a soul to suffer in hell forever.

    Is that a possibility?

  15. I’m reading Mat 10:28.

    Can something destroyed still exist? I believe it can. It seems to me that something can exist in a destroyed condition. If it once had a purpose, it will not be fit for it anymore if it has been destroyed, but it could still exist.

  16. “Van, do you hold to any belief of things spiritual or do you believe there is only a material existence and nothing is invisible to us?”

    Only material existence. Dark matter is invisible but we have evidence it exists. We have no evidence of invisible beings or places that Christians believe in. None at all.

  17. Dark matter has not been found.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24987749

    The evidence is that it seems that galaxies act like they have more mass than they appear to have. The evidence for YHWH is life and logic and conscience and the laws of physics, etc…all of which would not exist without a Creator.

    Colossians 1
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Hebrews 11
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    If we ever do find that there is such a thing as dark matter, we will be finding out a little more of how YHWH holds all things together.

  18. doug i love you and take it from a jew to know hebrew and hebrew thought almost like it is natural 😉 Judge doug if this be true! 1. Adam is the image of GOD 2. GOD is all-powerful and immortal ! 3. Adam is powerful and mortal 4. therefore a image is a mirror that resemble the actual but not the actual itself. Adam did not eat of the tree of life ; therefore Adam does not have immortality or eternal life!

  19. Just wanting to respond quickly to post #16:

    (Not sure if he was agreeing with Dr. Fudge or not, so this is just a general interaction with the post)
    “Outer darkness is the only place where men go after death according to Jude and Peter and this is the eternal state of man who die without Yeshua. This is also an ancient Jewish understanding as well.”

    – In regard to ‘Outer Darkness’, notice that it is a location, outer. The greek word used for outer ‘ἐξώτερος’ or ‘exōteros’ has the meaning of “outer, the darkness outside the limits of the lighted palace.” So this outer darkness has a locality.

    Yeshua also confirms the locality aspect of the outer darkness since He describes activities that takes place in this locality, the activities of weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
    (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 13:28)

    And in the book of Daniel we read that this shame and gnashing of teeth will happen everlasting:

    “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
    – Daniel 12:2

  20. Heya Thomas,

    I guess it comes down to definitions since I would argue that Adam does have immortality and eternal life according to Genesis 3. Unless you are speaking in physical terms, then I would argue that his physical immortality was temporarily suspended due to the fall in the garden until the Lords second coming.

    In either case, Adam has spiritual immortality and eternal life as well as future physical eternal life and immortality (once resurrected).

    We know this from Genesis 3:21
    “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

    This is the first recorded bloodshed in the Bible and it was an action taken by God to remove Adam and Eve’s own covering and covering them Himself through the shedding of blood, a depiction of Jesus and His atonement. By this act, Adam now had the covering of God and therefore, eternal life and the guarantee of future physical immortality.

  21. BenjaminWarkentin, Thanks for the reply i disagree but are you saying Adam was born again? Where in genesis 3 does he say they have immortality and eternal life?I am saying neither there flesh,soul or spirit is immortal and has eternal life according to genesis 3:22 and But GOD made them 100% finite , mortal and living humans . If GOD is all -powerful does that make the image all-poweful? no so likewise GOD only has immortality and adam the image only has mortality 1 timothy 6:16 romans 2:7

  22. BenjaminWarkentin Did You know the hebrew term deraon translated contempt also appears in Isaiah 66:24? deraon is translated loathsome and describes the unburied corpses. Secondly the meaning of deraon both in Dan 12:2 and in Isaiah 66:24 is the decomposition of the wicked. I would say means that the contempt is caused by the disgust over the decomposition of their bodies, and not by the never-ending suffering of the wicked. So the sentiment of the survivors is disgust, not pity forever!

  23. Thanks Thomas,

    Genesis 3:22 is dealing with physical life. Prior to Adam’s sin, Adam had everlasting physical life as per Gen. 3:19. God had to throw Adam out of the garden (hence protecting Adam) to prevent Adam from physically living forever in sin. For Adam’s sake, he now had to return to the dust.

    To touch your first question asking if I believed Adam was born again, in the same manner that Abraham, Noah and the Old Testament saints were saved by faith, yes.

  24. “I would say means that the contempt is caused by the disgust over the decomposition of their bodies, and not by the never-ending suffering of the wicked.”

    – Interesting. Though I don’t think it works. For one, these decomposing bodies will “awake” (a state of consciousness) to a recognition of shame and contempt. I also don’t think it can be said that those who awake to everlasting life will eternally feel shame and contempt for the lost. You would think those who have everlasting life would feel sadness for the lost as God does. But we are told that God will wipe away all tears and there will be no sadness.

    Those are the first couple things that came to mind.

  25. Benjamin Warkentin “Prior to Adam’s sin, Adam had everlasting physical life as per Gen. 3:19.” well you assume because only by eating the bad fruit death would happen b; So if Adam never ate he would have lived forever because death only comes by sin(meaning traitor or disobedience to the king) right? My take personally is that they were 2 complete mortals living in a testing ground to see what they would eat first. In Genesis 3:22 GOD says Adam did not eat the fruit of the tree of life , saying if Adam ate he would live forever. But If GOD was testing them to see if they would obey to righteousness for everlasting life or disobey to sin for death; then that would explain why Satan fell to tempt them and GOD would spend time with them daily in his actual presence and give them food and long life to sustain them till they made the most perfect unbiased completely free will choice.

  26. Benjamin Warkentin, Can we focus on adam for a while and get back to isaih in a little? Also i agree and am leaning to adam and prophets being born again but not over the edge yet.

  27. I think in Gen 3:24 GOD was not just protecting them but also showing them that they cannot obey to righteousness or obedience on their own or get close to eat the eternal life fruit either because they were sinners. And in verse 21 The YHWH was showing them that i will make and put a coat on them but they must receive it in faith or trust. Showing they needed a savior! Adonia Yeshua Ha-Mashiach

  28. In reference to Daniel 12.2, the same word is used in Isaiah 66:24, those who have “darone” (‘contempt’ or ‘disgust’) are the Believers who go out and look upon the dead bodies (not living souls) of those who have been turned into ashes – cremated (2 Peter 2:6, Malachi 4:3).

    It would be similar to us looking at the burned corpse of Adolf Hitler. We will always have contempt or disgust for him. Even in eternity. Isaiah 66:24 and Daniel 12:2 are inextricably linked by the same Hebrew word and that Hebrew word speaks of OUR contempt for the wicked, not their eternal conscious torment.

    There are two emotions here, shame and contempt. It is obvious that the unsaved have the shame emotion. And it is the righteous that have the contempt emotion towards the wicked. Notice that only ONE of those emotions lasts forever. It is contempt, which proves that we (believers) will live forever and still feel emotion. However, nothing is said about shame being felt forever. Why? Because the wicked will be destroyed in body and soul. (Matthew 10:28).

    See http://www.jewishnotgreek.com for more detailed info.

  29. “The evidence is that it seems that galaxies act like they have more mass than they appear to have. The evidence for YHWH is life and logic and conscience and the laws of physics, etc…all of which would not exist without a Creator.”

    I don’t want to stray from the subject but the Laws of Physics are human descriptions of goes on in the universe. Logic is also a human invention. So the Laws of Physics would not exist without humans as they have nothing to do with any supposed creator.

  30. The laws of physics are what they are. We discover them and put them into our language. Without a logical, moral, consistent Creator, there would be no conscience, logic or physical laws…and thus no need to discuss the subject of eternal punishment. For without morality informing our consciences and a cohesive physical universe for us to be tested in and a mind that can logically think about the ramifications of rebellion against our Creator, we would be nothing on our way to nowhere for no reason whatsoever.

    Van’s materialistic beliefs, and do not be fooled they are religious beliefs with no solid facts, should logically produce men that have no better reason to love than to hate or to show mercy than to torture. The logical outcome of his beliefs, if every one acted upon them, would produce hell on earth for everyone. That there is an alternative to this hell and a conscience in man shows us the necessity of a final reward or punishment. Final justice must be served.

    He thinks that there is no such thing as final justice or a moral creator, but lives in a world that is as nice and pleasant as it is because of those that have a conscience and a transcendent morality that is ingrained in them. He believes in a deity…himself.

    So don’t be fooled by his foolishness.

  31. Van,

    The only way you could prove what you emphatically state, that we live in a universe without a creator, would be to have all knowledge and to be able to be in all places at once. You cannot prove your assertion, therefore you only believe it to be true…you do not really know it to be true. You do not really base your life on fact and science. You have a faith that is the basis for your interpretations of science.

    There is a moral Creator that will give to everyman according to his works. Those that continue to rebel against Him will not be left unpunished…whether it is for eternity or until they are burnt up. And no I cannot prove the above statement scientifically, but I know it is true…the same way you know it is true that there there is no creator. One of us is right and one wrong. If I am wrong, what have I lost in the grand scheme of things, or would that be the non-scheme of things? If you are wrong, you will have missed out on virtually everything that matters or that is worthwhile.

  32. Hello Sheila! =)

    Thomas, I’d be glad to stick to Adam and Eve for a bit.

    You touched on something that I think is very important. “well you assume because only by eating the bad fruit death would happen b; So if Adam never ate he would have lived forever because death only comes by sin(meaning traitor or disobedience to the king) right? My take personally is that they were 2 complete mortals living in a testing ground to see what they would eat first.”

    – I need to do more of a study on the Tree of Life, but it is possible that Adam and Eve may have already been eating from the Tree of Life since Genesis 2:16-17 only says that they were not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil:

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat (which includes the Tree of Life):

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    And it seems from Revelation 22 that in the future we shall be eating continually from the Tree of Life since verse 2 reads:

    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Not sure what I am headed with that other than to say that it is possible that Adam had already been eating of the tree of life.

    You mentioned “death only comes by sin” which is the important thing I meant to talk about but got side tracked by the tree, which Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22:

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    – If death came by man, then what would have happened if Adam never ate from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

    Moving to Adam and Eve being saved, Adam and Eve also proclaim their faith in God in Genesis Chapters 3 and 4. I’ll go into that in my next post.

  33. Adam and Eve’s faith in God

    Adam

    Genesis 3:15
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    – Adam just finished hearing God’s declaration to the serpent that Eve would produce the Messiah through her offspring, and He would crush the serpent. A prophecy about the Messiah.

    After God declares His judgement against Adam, Adam does a peculiar thing;

    Genesis 3:20
    20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    – Adam just finished hearing God’s pronouncements and he responds by naming his wife Eve. Why would he do that at a time like this? Adam was a very smart man, he knew what God was saying, he understood the prophecy about the coming Messiah who would redeem his fall. I will give more evidence for this when I discuss Eve.

    Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all living. Through her childbearing, the race of Man would be saved by the coming of Messiah. Look at how God responds when Adam names his wife Eve:

    Genesis 3:21
    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    That is the immediate next verse and God’s response to Adam’s faith and understanding in Him. It was to shed innocent blood (the animals, most likely lamb, were innocent of Adam’s sin) and cover them Himself. I love Adam and Eve, a very rewarding study!

    Eve:

    Eve also proclaims her faith in God in Genesis chapter 4:1.

    1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

    – Eve believed Cain was the Messiah as evidenced from her saying “I have gotten a man from the Lord”. God had promised the serpent, Adam and Eve that Eve’s seed would crush the serpents head. She had just given birth to a male child and thought that this was the child God had promised. Which means she believed God and displayed faith in His plan of salvation.

    These are some of the reasons after studying Adam and Eve that I believe they were saved.

  34. Benjamin Warkentin “If death came by man, then what would have happened if Adam never ate from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?” to answer Adam would have passed the test and ate the tree of Life notice both trees are literally next to each other in the middle of eden. Genesis 2:9 Let me ask a different question.; What would have happened if Adam never ate from the Tree of Life? (i think adam never did eat the fruit of life) Genesis 3:22 shows that only eating once they would live forever!

  35. I believe and Know now your right on adam being born again, spiritually Adam received by faith the gift of eternal life and immortality from Christ in Genesis 3:20-21 2 Timothy 1:9-10
    Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Notice Christ abolished death spiritually and physically , I believe Adam received spiritual and physical death from eating that tree because the spirit of man is the one with knowledge and our conscious 1 Corinthians 2:11 ROMANS 9:1 Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 and the fear of the LORD first ever shown in genesis 3:5-10 and is spiritual Isaiah 11:2 so these fruits were no ordinary fruits shown herein.

  36. Thanks Thomas,

    “to answer Adam would have passed the test and ate the tree of Life notice both trees are literally next to each other in the middle of eden. Genesis 2:9”

    – That is true, and it seems that Adam and Eve, Eve at least, walked by these trees in daily life since it is there where Eve can see and contemplate the fruit that the serpent tempts eve with, the temptation of the knowledge she would gain. Also Adam most likely showed her which tree she was not to eat from in the least. The text doesn’t indicate either way (why I said its possible) if they ate from the tree of life or not. We do know that they were allowed to eat of it until Adam as the federal head sinned against God. Also it is important to note that death was only possible in the day that they ate of the fruit (Gen 2:17) which gives weight to the argument that death was not possible until that day. It never says that in the day they eat of the tree of life they will gain immortality until after Adam loses it as God promised he would “when” he ate of the forbidden one. And if Adam did eat of the tree of Life after his fall he would then live forever in sin, so God protected him by guarding the tree of Life.

    You asked, “Let me ask a different question.; What would have happened if Adam never ate from the Tree of Life?”

    – Since death was only available to Adam “in the day that thou eatest the fruit”, then we see that the tree of life wasn’t a requisite for immortality (assuming he never ate it prior) since he couldn’t die until he ate the forbidden fruit. Or maybe it was and Adam did eat of it before the fall. The only thing we know for sure is that death was a result of sin, and death is described as an ‘enemy of God’, which makes sense since it is a result of rebellion.

    I’m smiling writing this question but here it goes. Say Adam never made a decision either way, he never ate either, would he die or live?

  37. Thomas I lift up your hands in agreement that Adam died both spiritually and physically in the act of partaking of the fruit. Putting his faith in the Messiah and gaining eternal life through Yeshua.

    Amen.

  38. Hypothetical Smiley question ‘w’
    “Adam never made a decision either way, he never ate either, would he die or live?”
    Eventually GOD will allow this set up to make a choice like he did in the genesis 3 whole scope

    First we know they would live for a very very long time ; i mean Adam died after 930 years old and that is after the fall 🙂
    Secondly before the fall GOD would eventually lead them into eating the the tree of LIFE(Do you think the tree was undesirable looking like Christ was Isaiah 53:2?) Because I assume GOD spent time with Adam daily; at least enough for them to recognize the presence,footsteps and voice of GOD and even were to hide(Genesis 3:8).

    If not that. If Adam the leader right next to eve Genesis 3:6 did not commit treason in The devil incident. GOD would bless them according to there obedient works and tell them to eat the fruit of Life with himself. But GOD allowed the test for there good and the devil tempted for evil to see by perfect Freewill who they would be in allegiance ; GOD did this because satan was accusing GOD saying do they really love you like job does he really fear you? And Scripture says GOD will not allow us to be tempted more then we can handle 1 Corinthians 10:13

  39. GOD bless you Benjamin Warkentin. someone right an article on this discussion 😉
    Well i guess they had three freewill choices
    “The text doesn’t indicate either way (why I said its possible) if they ate from the tree of life or not. ” Does not genesis 3;22 indicate they never ate he fruit of life and gained the ability to live forever? If Adam never ate the fruit then Adam would have lived forever not by himself but by GODs sovereign grace,substance and providence for GOD would not allow a pure and innocent creation to die naturally before total depravity but i think Adam could not die inwardly but externally because GOD would renew him daily though adam is mortal

  40. The tree of Life represents obedience by works of the LAW but the goat skins represent obedience by faith in grace. That is why GOD blocked the tree of life in genesis 3:24 that is why You gotta go in the way,truth and life because the flaming sword of GODs wrath most be paid before you can resurrect by the tree of Life

  41. Interesting things to ponder Thomas.

    The question still begs an answer “Say Adam never made a decision either way, he never ate either, would he die or live?” and if I am correct to quote this portion as your answer, “GOD would bless them according to there obedient works and tell them to eat the fruit of Life with himself”.

    Like you, I believe Adam has free will. Which means he could decide to not eat the offered tree of life fruit, as well as not eat the tree of knowledge(death) fruit. So back to the hypothetical question, would he live or die?

    If he would die by not eating either tree, would he need a savior to live? Would he just be a disembodied spirit? What would death mean for Adam?

    Heading home soon so I may not be able to respond till later this evening. Thanks Thomas, a very interesting conversation here =)

  42. Sorry Thomas, you may have responded to a couple of my questions while I was writing, I will read over them carefully soon.

Leave Your Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


*