Dr. Brown speaks with Israeli evangelist Jacob Damkani about his own testimony in the Lord, reaching Jewish people with the gospel in Israel today, and the changing spiritual climate in the Land. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel all around the world, not only in the land of Israel, perhaps the Lord will use you to win a precious Jewish soul to the Lord.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Do you really want to see evidence of a supernatural God, of His faithfulness, and of His covenant promises? Look no further than Israel!
SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY!
BIG NEWS! Dr. Brown will release a special print version of Authentic Fire: A Response to John MacArthur’s Strange Fire. This book will be sold only through AskDrBrown Ministries. Pre-order a signed copy of this exclusive print edition today for only $25 – Postage Paid! (expected release date: December 2013) (US Only)
Call 1-800-278-9978 or Order Online!
Other Resources:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuJDQF0bFJs
“The Other Side of the Cross”
Praise God my typing is up to 45 words a minute now!! I’ve memorized almost all of the important keys and am practicing. 🙂
Say, does anyone know the rules for when Jewish men wear the head covering? Sometimes you see them wearing it and others not.
Wow, I sure am hogging the comments section today! The film was so very informative! Loved it. Learned a lot of new things from it.
Good show with Jacob, Dr. Brown.
One of the most interesting points raised by Rev. Sizer, in his debate with Dr. Brown, was the question of “who is the seed of Abraham?” Like all of you, I have never questioned that this was exclusively the ethnic group we now call Jews.
But, obviously, the “seed of Abraham” are far more the current ethnic group who now call themselves Jews. Jews are pretty much the descendants of just two tribes, right? They aren’t even close to all the “seed of Abraham.”
If, Dr. Brown is correct and all the promises to the “seed of Abraham” are irrevocable and internal, then those promises go to the descendants of _all_ the tribes, not just two. There are surely “seeds of Abraham” all throughout the Middle East and beyond.
Or am I missing something?
Greg,
The northern 10 tribes of Israel, also called Ephraim, were scattered throughout the whole earth. The promise of YHWH is that He will gather them and return them to the land when they repent in the last days. Then both Judah and Israel will be one stick again.
De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
It is starting to happen before our eyes.
As we consider the promises made to the seed of Abraham, let’s remember what the apostle Paul wrote to the church in Galatia, that the seed is the one to whom the promises were made which is Christ. (Gal 3:16-19)
Now when the Seed comes, will we not then see all the promises of God fulfilled in Him, and will it not be unto all the members of his body?
If we find a promise to Israel that God made, isn’t there always a parallel, or similar promise that God will keep to all members of the body of Christ?
Bo,
>> The northern 10 tribes of Israel, also called Ephraim, were scattered throughout the whole earth.
Where are the descendents of those ten tribes now?
Who are these people know as now? Are they the Semites in general?
>> The promise of YHWH is that He will gather them and return them to the land when they repent in the last days. Then both Judah and Israel will be one stick again.
From where will the other ten tribes return?
PS: These are not leading or loaded questions. As I have said, several times before, I don’t know hardly anything about Jewish stuff.
But I am intrigued by the theology that _all_ the 12 tribes are re-united, not just the two. As a liberal, I love the inclusiveness of that.
Ray,
>>If we find a promise to Israel that God made, isn’t there always a parallel, or similar promise that God will keep to all members of the body of Christ?
And, if you believe, as Dr. Brown does, that the covenant of God to Abraham’s seed is unilateral and can not be nullified from the human side — then this blessing does not just go to Christians. Dr. Brown would argue that it goes to the two tribes who now call themselves Jews.
But I am totally infatuated by this question — what about the the other 60% of Abraham’s seed?
… sorry, I’m math challenged.
It should be 84% of Abraham’s seed who are not from the two tribes we now call Jews.
How do we even identify the other ten tribes who will also return to Israel in fulfillment of prophesy?
I did a quick Google search to see who could trace their lineage back to Abraham.
This is interesting:
>> In a study of Israelis and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied, had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. . “Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.”
Aren’t these all Abraham’s seed?
(Again — please don’t dump all over me. I am asking honest questions. I really don’t know this stuff.)
Greg,
Probably a lot of the middle eastern population is somehow related to Abraham. Some directly from him and some from his ancestors since he came from what is now called Iraq.
As far as his direct descendents there are two known lines…Isaac and Ismael, but Abraham also had other children.
As far as the prophetic seed of Abraham that line all comes through Isaac then Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, then the 12 sons of Israel. Those that will be regathered are of these twelve men’s direct descendents since the land of Israel was promised to them. There is no sure way that we know of to determine who is of the physical lineage of the 10 tribes of Israel and to where they have been scattered.
Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called
There are some prophetic clues and some linguistic clues and even some cultural clues,but nothing that I know of that is completely provable. (Gen. 49; Deut. 33)
One thing is for sure. Messiah is called the seed (singular) of Abraham. He was given as a light to the nations. He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Those lost sheep have lost their identity in all the nations of the earth. There are others not of the fold of the Jews that are Y’shua’s sheep. They hear his voice.
Since the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” were scattered to the corners of the earth and assimilated into every nation and will be regathered somehow, it may be that those that embrace Y’shua as Messiah, that return to following YHWH’s commandments, that have a brotherly love for the Jews and that are zealous over Jerusalem the land of Israel are the 10 tribes being regathered. Why else would they find themselves drawn to all this in the last days if it was not the beginning of the fulfilling of prophecy?
Now for those that are true followers of Messiah and do not fall into the bloodline of one of the 12 tribes, they are grafted into Israel according to Paul and Isaiah and etc., etc., etc. The name of YHWH’s bride is Israel. All those that are gathered/grafted/adopted into Israel via Y’shua are included in the covenants of promise.
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ…
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The seed is ultimately one seed through Messiah Y’shua. All the nations of the earth are currently being blessed through the lost tribes being converted and living righteous lives, but ultimately they are being blessed through THE SEED of Abraham…Y’shua.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And there is constant spiritual war that spills over into the natural between the Devil and his seed and the Seed of the woman that is YHWH’s bride. And we can know if we are part of that seed.
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And we can know if we are not a part of Y’shua’s bride.
Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Ps 119:115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
Well….Greg… this is a huge can of worms u are about to open.
If you beleive the Muslim claim that…. “they are the desendants of Ismeal” then we could say yes.
If Im correct they contend… that the promise that we Chrisitans say is to Issac… they claim it was to Ismhmael. And Ishmael is realted to mohaomeed.
MY VIEW, would be…. there were ppl around in Abrahams time period… so to have DNA linked back that far, would not definielty mean it was Abraham. BUT in theory.. we are all seeds of Noah and the ppl select few that was on the ARK. So a similair chromosome in that region is not far off
I think the Muslim claim that they are descendants of Ishmael is valid. God promised Hagar that Ishmael’s line would be numerous also, and that his line would be in constant conflict with pretty much everyone.
Genesis 16:11-12
Josh,
Good point. Also please note that though they be descendents, they are not the “seed of Abraham” in the scriptural context. They must be grafted into Israel to partake of the promises and covenants of YHWH.
Shalom
What Jacob said about how he thought everyone would be excited about the things he found out from the Bible, but it seemed that so few had any interest in it at all, sounds to right about people who have a ministry.
Correction, sounds “so” right…(last line)
Greg,
Abraham was told to look up at the sky and this would be the number of his descendants- On a clear night who can count all of his descendants? God has kept his promise, What a glorious, magnificent, God indeed.
Josh, I agree.
and with you, Jon, what an awesome God we serve!
Thanks, everybody, (especially Bo!) for the thoughtful responses.
I suspect that one thing which makes this issue a challenge is the way we use “seed.”
Bo, for example, uses the phrase “the Devil and his seed.” I assume, this is not literal genetics! Seed, use this way, is a spiritual metaphor for all of God’s people. I’m pretty sure Rev. Sizer would have no quarrel with this.
But Dr. Brown uses the term “Seed of Abraham” literally – meaning sperm or genetics. By this, I assume he means anyone who is a descendent of Abraham. This is a whole lot of people, many who no longer identify with being Jewish.
(PS – I am not 100% I am assuming correctly. Does Dr. Brown mean genetics when he uses the term “seed”? If I am assuming wrong, it completely deflates my question!)
What is particularly provocative is Dr. Brown’s theology that the Abrahamic blessing is not revocable by humans. He was very clear about that in his debate with Rev. Sizer. If rejecting God’s Son and Messiah does not revoke the blessing, then it’s hard to imagine anything else that would.
This is huge! And it is very good news for a liberal like me, who tends towards inclusiveness. As a long-time missionary to Muslims, the current hostility between them and the Jews, who I also love, breaks my heart.
But if many Muslims can trace their “seed”/genetics back to Abraham, (and I’ll guess, millions could) then they are also under the Abrahamic blessing with the promise of re-unification in the larger Abrahamic family.
Once again, please don’t’ jump all over me for this. I really am trying to properly apply Dr. Brown’s teaching. It seems very similar to what I was taught in the Dispensational Evangelical church and bible college of my youth.
While I am still making up my mind – I am very intrigued by this fresh way of looking at it.
But if many Muslims can trace their “seed”/genetics back to Abraham, (and I’ll guess, millions could)
> Shouldn’t you have to prove Abraham actually existed before you make that claim? I guess not since you can’t prove any of the major figures in the Bible really existed. All taken on faith without a shred of evidence to support any of it. The greatest story ever sold.
Van,
You have made yourself totally irrelevant on this site. I just thought you would like to know.
Greg,
You are probably right about those that could trace their genetics to Abraham…though I think that there would be serious questions as far as reliable records to prove this on the Arab side of this. The problem is that the Bible says that no genetics count, as far as the seed of Abraham, except those that come down through Isaac and then only through Jacob/Israel and his sons. Both Isaac’s brothers and Jacob’s brother and their descendents are excluded Biblically from being part of the genetically passed down covenants and promises. (They were given different promises and blessings.) If these or us want in, we must come through Messiah.
Sorry, Van, but you’re definitely not up on your archaeological history! Plenty of evidence showing up everyday. Try Biblical Archaeology Magazine.
It’s “Review” not “Magazine.” BAR for short. One of the coolest artifacts, in my mind, is a coin minted at the time of Christ which shows the same face as the Shroud of Turin. 🙂
I used to subscribe to that publication. Let’s see here’s a copy of the Biblical Archaeological Revue. It’s dated January/February 2005. On pages 16-17 it talks about David and Solomon and it says: “Archaeological data have now definitely confirmed that the empire of David and Solomon never existed.” Any comment on that? The Shroud of Turin? The kinds of things Christians point to as evidence for their faith they would never accept as evidence from a person of another religion.
Bo, is the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that this person Abraham ever existed also irrelevant? The whole story is absurd and if it weren’t in the Bible you’d laugh at people who claimed to believe it. Just remember that.
Van,
There is no scientific proof that 99.99% of all the people born before 1000 C.E. ever existed, but that does not mean that they didn’t. The Bible is historical record that proves historically that over 3200 people existed. Just because you cannot trace your ancestry back 4500 years does not mean that someone else can’t.
As for David existing, your not up to speed on current archeology. You are only about 150 years behind. That is not too bad for someone who gets all of his information from unreliable sources and believes everything they say, though.
“In 1868, a stone tablet was discovered in Jordan. It was written by a Moabite king named Mesha, an enemy of Israel.
The stone dates to around 840 BC, less than 200 years after David and it provides the first known reference to the “House of David” outside the Bible.
“And ‘House of David,’ it means ‘dynasty of David.’ So we know that there was a guy called David, and he had a dynasty,” Garfinkel said. “Okay, so now this is absolutely clear that David is not a mythological figure. So the mythological paradigm collapsed in one moment.”
More than a hundred years later the same phrase, “House of David,” turned up on another stone, this time in northern Israel.
It was written about 200 years after David’s rule — again, by one of Israel’s enemies, Hazel, the king of Damascus. “He said, I killed 70 kings. I killed a king from Israel and a king from the House of David,” Garfinkel explained.” -http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2013/June/Did-David-Solomon-Exist-Dig-Refutes-Naysayers/
Thanks for that, Bo. I’ll see if I can’t find even more recent evidence, although I’m not sure it will suffice.
Van,
The Shroud of Turin has absolutely nothing to do with my faith and everything to do with a mystery that even pagan, secular atheists cannot figure out. The carbon dateings were shown to be skewed, supposedly not deliberately, however, it’s clear that the one who took the sample didn’t follow scientific protocol when selecting it. The three labs used a sample taken from the same area on the cloth. That is not good science. There is a challenge of a substantial monetary prize put to anyone who could say “how” the image on the Shroud came to be there. Perhaps you could solve it and claim the prize.
Enough with the Shroud though. I’ll point you to this and let it be. Unfortunately the page is unavailable right now but it’s “The Shroud of Turin Blog.” A catholic hosts it but I can assure you it covers “EVERYTHING” about it.
Btw, (just one more thing) the sample used for carbon dating was contaminated with cotton fibers from an old patch rewoven into the linen. Sue Benford and Ray Rogers from Los Alamos Labs wrote the pier reviewed papers on the findings.
http://shroudstory.com/
Van, speaking in tongues is proof Jesus existed because he promised the holy Spirit would come from the Father, something he told them, and it was something they heard from him. It came and they spoke in tongues.
Many people speak in tongues today who believe on him also.
Many people saw Jesus back in the day he was walking this earth in the flesh, his own earthly body, as our physical bodies are.
Many people have seen him today in living visions and he’s communicated many things through them which enlighten us further in those things which the Bible has taught us. Those things they have received by his Spirit which the Father sent by the word of Christ, in his purposes, and for the sake of his name.
There will never be any proof in this world that someone who did in fact exist, did not, nor will there ever be found anywhere, any proof that one who does indeed exist, does not, for proof does not prove that which is not.
The gospel of Christ is the greatest truth that has ever been told and it will outlast any news that has ever been passed around.
Correction: any other news (last line)
And this morning I found myself wondering where the term “many infallible proofs” is, and here it is in Acts 1:3. And I find myself thinking “where else but in Acts, of course”, for the saints in their day had their proofs and we today have ours, by the same Spirit which they received, and we also have the same manifestations which they also received.
Van,
>> Shouldn’t you have to prove Abraham actually existed before you make that claim? I guess not since you can’t prove any of the major figures in the Bible really existed. All taken on faith without a shred of evidence to support any of it. The greatest story ever sold.
Religion is called a “Faith” for a reason!
You make a perfectly valid point — all this theology is meaningless if you don’t have an underlying faith.
But, do the Jews go away if can’t prove Abraham existed? Do the Muslims? The Christians?
Theology is about understanding God and ourselves and the world we live in. And giving it meaning.
I don’t need to find a piece of Abraham’s body to do that.
Bo,
> The problem is that the Bible says that no genetics count, as far as the seed of Abraham, except those that come down through Isaac and then only through Jacob/Israel and his sons.
I think we are on the same page as that. I think it is fair to assume that millions of Muslims could trace their lineage though one of the tribes of Jacob.
Afterall, where did the other tribes disperse to? Almost surely, the descendents are clustered in the countries around current Israel.
This is where I get a little over my head.
Modern Jews are descendents of mainly one tribe — Judah.
But the Abrahamic covenant was for _ALL_ the tribes. Those tribes did not disappear. Their descendents still exist.
Where are those people, today, in 2013, who are also under the covenant?
Aren’t many of them in the lands around Israel? Clustered either nearby or in the lands of exile?
Some might be in my own lineage — Swedes — but not many. Surely, most would be in Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc? Right?
Greg,
At this point in time, I do not think that there is anyway to prove genetic connection to the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel. Muslims are not more likely to be descended from Israel than Europeans or Russians. Proximity to the land of Israel does not increase the chances much, if any, after 2750 years of mixing and migrating.
There is no promise to Israel that they will be made “one stick” with Judah and be brought back to the land without them returning to YHWH and keeping His commandments. Muslims would have to convert to be a part of gathering the outcasts of Israel. The only means, in light of the “New Testement” of repenting and converting/being grafted into Israel is through belief in Y’shua Messiah.
As far as this goes, it doesn’t seem to be Biblically possible for “one stick” to be made of Judah and Israel until Judah accepts their Messiah Y’shua also. The regathering is beginning in that believers in Y’shua are starting to desire to keep YHWH’s commandments again instead of going their own way and making their own rules.
Beyond the academics is a spiritual lesson. If we disregard YHWH’s Torah or the Messiah, we will not be regathered and thus not be made one stick. In the end, the only real seed has both properties. And must endure until the end to be saved.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 14:12 Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.”
Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
For two reasons we will be persecuted…trusting in Y’shua and keeping YHWH’s commandments.
Greg, you have stated openly that you support homosexual marriage and abortion. These are against both YHWH’s commandments and the testimony of Messiah. You can be interested in who is the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and miss the opportunity to be a part of YHWH’s plan of salvation. False prophets have come up with the idea that a man can marry a man and that it is not murder to abort an unborn baby. Real love accepts YHWH’s commandments that these things that you support are abominable and are not allowed in Israel. Real faith in Y’shua detests homosexuality and murdering the unborn.
Your quest for knowledge in the area of who is of the seed of Abraham will gain you nothing but knowledge that you will be held accountable for in the day of judgement if you do not repent. You need to be very careful that you are not cut off from the olive tree like the multitudes of Israel were. They were broken off so that we could be grafted in. They will be grafted in again when they repent. We will be cut off if we do not repent.
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Bo,
I’ve re-read your post and realize that you may be working under a presumption I’m not.
Do you presume that Muslims are descendents of Esau? Muslims believe this, of course. Do you?
Obviously, this theology comes from Islamic teaching, not from our bible.
It seems likely that some Muslims come from Esau but clearly impossible that all do.
But none of this answers my central question … if ALL the tribes are going to return to the land.
Who are the other tribes besides the Jews?
If the answer is “we don’t know” — then anyone who can trace their ancestry back to the near and middle east might be under the Abrahamic Covenant.
Or am I missing something?
>>Greg, you have stated openly that you support homosexual marriage and abortion. These are against both YHWH’s commandments and the testimony of Messiah.
Except that I don’t think God did command that.
The bible is virtually silent on abortion and the homosexuality of biblical times was so vastly different than today, it’s as relevant as head coverings.
Greg,
Maybe, by now, we are all descendents of Abraham. And no one of us that does not repent will be gathered back to the land or participate in the Abrahamic covenant.
Greg,
Women are still supposed to wear head coverings…according to Paul.
The Bible is not silent or even virtually silent about abortion and homosexuality. It states quite clearly and succinctly that both are grievous sins. You think that quantity of statements discounts quality and seriousness of truth.
Bo,
>>Women are still supposed to wear head coverings…according to Paul.
So, do you condemn un-hatted women as much as you condemn me? Are those women, and the men who support them, risking hell?
(And, to be clear, I am not against women covering their heads. I am just “pro-choice” about it.)
I think the meanings of head coverings has so vastly changed, that they no longer serve the purpose Paul intended for them.
I would say the same about bans on homosexuality. Paul’s _purpose_ for condemning ancient homosexual practice (temple prostitution, pederasty) is not served by opposing modern gay marriage.
Bo,
If the bible says that abortion is clearly a sin, a holocaust even, why are there no clear verses on it?
Greg,
I have not condemned you. I have spoken the truth. I have quoted scripture. I have rebuked you and warned you and tried to reason with you. If you are unable to accept the truth and repent, how does knowing who Abraham’s seed is matter…it will do you no good.
Lu 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Bo,
No offense, brother, but you have declared that the bible clearly and succinctly bans abortion.
But you have not given any verses!
And, we all know why, those verses don’t exist. It just wasn’t an issue, back then, so the bible is silent on it.
So, you too, have to be careful here. Misrepresenting your own opinion as the word of God is a grave thing.
Bo didn’t answer me — but I have done this so many times, I can do both sides of it.
Bo will give me verses verses on God’s foreknowledge of us.
He will pad that with verses about murder. And, for good measure, verses saying that I’m going to hell if I don’t agree with Bo.
The debate will come down to Ex. 21:22. He will ague that there is punishment for killing a fetus. I will argue that the punishment is a _fine_ not the punishment for murder.
There. Let’s get back to my question about who is under the Abrahamic covenant?
I also want to not that Bo didn’t even try to address my view on homosexuality. He jumped straight to rebuking me.
My position is fairly simple — the “homosexuality” that Paul condemns is nothing like modern gay marriage.
The _intent_ and _purpose_ of Paul’s condemnation of ancient homosexual practice is not served by banning modern gay marriage.
This two practices are just vastly different.
– – – – –
And, in my own defense, I am not blatantly disobeying God’s word by believing this. There are precious few verses on homosexuality in the bible. The issue of homosexuality is not — and has never been — a “fundamental” of the faith. It’s not in any of the creeds that I’m aware of
So, my interpretation does not put me outside of the family of God. As a matter of fact, it puts me in good company. Lots and lots of Christians agree with me.