Who Said It?

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Dr. Brown will share powerful quotes from ancient and modern Church leaders, asking listeners to identify “who said it?” Free copies of Dr. Brown’s forthcoming book Authentic Fire will be given away during the show. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: You know we often have a lot of misconceptions about people and what they believe.  It’s always best to get things out of the horse’s mouth!

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Can we join together across our differences if we are united in Jesus?  Can we join together for the Great Commission?

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Other Resources:

Who Wants to Be a Disciple?

Jesus as Prophet and as Lamb

Does Prayer Actually Change Things? And Can Prayer Really Change God’s Mind?

65 Comments
  1. Yes,
    I agree… I think our convo got muddled.. because at some pts I was replying to others and u.. and that lead to big slosh of topics.
    Yes we can erase big picture and start from jus the word…

    One thing…we will stick to 1 exact topic, but we have to realize that another verse may apply. And we dont dont always just use one verse… we look at the compelte teaching. Example… a person may try to say… “look here at this verse.. it says God is one.” & when we try to talk about the trinity, they only want to define the view based on that one passage.. not scripture as a whole.

    With that said.. I agree

  2. Ty,

    Great! I agree about the only one verse not being the only side.

    So from scratch:

    Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    Here is some of what I see:

    All the passages above are talking about the same thing.

    There are at least 2 types of baptism.

    Y’shua is the only one that baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.

    Baptize (baptidzo in the Greek) means to submerse…to completely cover.

    Baptizing with water is not the same thing as baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

    The correlation between what John was doing and what Y’shua does is that when someone is baptized in something, they are completely submerged in it and that someone has to do it to you. We have to submit to it voluntarily in some way.

    Do you agree? Is there something else that we should be seeing in these very similar verses?

    Shalom

  3. from the Gospel accounts of the Baptism (Baptizo: immersion, dip, sprinkle), I agree it references 2 Baptism ( a former version and teh new version)..

    BUT…

    I see it as Jesus’s baptism replaces Johns form of it… not that there are two different forms of it.

    Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I … he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost & fire.

    Notice that the Baptism of John is not referenced as being done anymore. Jesus commanded us to Batpize in the name of Father, the Son, the oly Spirit… not mentioning a command to still do Johns.

    And Johns Batpism was for “remission of Sin”, while the baptism that Jesus implements does “remission of Sin & delivers Holy Spirit” (the deleiver of Holy spirit is another verse.. but I felt it has context)

    “We have to submit to it voluntarily in some way”
    This part, I can’t agree 100% with… but that is not totally part of our disscucsion. This un-intentially puts standards on Gods Word taking effect. I believe it is tied to Gods word, and once done Gods word is not waiting for authority or a standard to be met to work. Anyhow… side note.

  4. Ty,

    I think that we are misunderstanding each other again.

    The passages in question do not say that John baptized with water but Y’shua will baptize with water with a new formula or that it will cause something different. Notice in a couple of passages above that it also mentions that Y’shua will baptize with fire.

    Baptism in water is a distinct kind of baptism than fire or the Holy Spirit. The people will be baptized with something different than water. The words spoken when someone is baptized with water do not change the fact that the person is immersed in the water. Whether it is for repentance or in the name of Y’shua or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, it is still baptism with water.

    Baptism with the Holy Ghost contains no water. The believers in Acts 2 were baptized in water long before the Spirit was poured out. They were in the upper room…there was no big tank of water up there.

    Baptism in fire is the judgment of eternal/unquenchable fire…being thrown in the lake of fire…totally immersed in fire. There is no water there either.

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
    17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

    It is the medium that is being discussed, i.e. water versus Holy Spirit. People, or at least John, was not worthy to baptize people with the Holy Spirit.

    Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
    2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

    Add to this that Y’shua did not baptize with water, but his disciples baptized with water for him. He does not baptize with water in any form. He baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The disciples that were baptized in the above verse were baptize in his name by the apostles but were not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

    Do you see that both the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the baptism with fire has nothing to do with water?

    Shalom

  5. I agree
    “Add to this that Y’shua did not baptize with water, but his disciples baptized with water for him.”

    This premise ties with the concept that man may be doing the poruing of water… but its God that does the actual Baptism. People are Batpized in the authority of Jesus. So each Batpism is techincally done by Jesus not man. Every Baptism done on earth is done by Jesus. He is the one cleansing our sins & deleivering the HS.

    In the Acts passage you referenced…yes they were previously Batpized.

    My question I would ask here is… had God granted the gift of the HS to in dwell in all beleivers yet?

    I ask this… because if he had not…. Yes it would appear to be two sepearte Batpism at this time… because they were Batpized before the death of Jesus & before the Father sent the HS to indwell in all.

    seperate note: remember I dont contend that at Baptism a person is 100% regenerated. But this is good to get our terminology on the same page.

  6. Ty,

    So I think that we agree that the baptism with fire is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and neither is either one of the foregoing the baptism with water. They are all separate things. Correct?

    I agree that the Holy Spirit had been poured upon all flesh yet at the time of John 4 baptism in water. I agree that when we baptize someone in the name of Y’shua we are doing it for him. So we are on the same page here…correct?

    I doubt that someone can be baptized with water and with unquenchable fire at the same time. I doubt that someone can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with unquenchable fire at the same time. Do you agree with this?

    I also think that we are not allowed to baptize someone that does not confess Y’shua as their master and that does not believe that He is YHWH and that Y’shua was sacrificed for us and is risen from the dead. But the people that confess and believe this are saved (Rom.10:9-10) and there is no reason to withhold baptism in water from them. These are already regenerated if they are saved whether or not they have been baptized in water. They already have the Holy Spirit inside of them at this point.

    You wrote:
    “My question I would ask here is… had God granted the gift of the HS to in dwell in all beleivers yet?

    I ask this… because if he had not…. Yes it would appear to be two sepearte Batpism at this time… because they were Batpized before the death of Jesus & before the Father sent the HS to indwell in all.”

    I do not think that it only appears to be two separate baptisms but that it is two separate baptisms. One with water and one with the Holy Spirit. I say this because the Spirit was poured out many years before the events in Acts 8,9,10 & 19 happened. In all of these we see that there is still a separation between the believers being baptized with water and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Sometimes water before Spirit. Sometimes Spirit before water. Never at the same time.

    Though it may be possible to be baptized with water and the Holy Spirit at the same instant, it does not happen in any example in Scripture. Are you questioning this?

    You can take your time to digest this and answer. I will be offline for Sabbath and will be back Saturday after Dark.

    I think that we are making progress 😉

    Shabbat Shalom

  7. Not to get off topic…. so I will address the topics that could get us off topic first.

    I also think that we are not allowed to baptize someone that does not confess Y’shua as their master and that does not believe that He is YHWH and that Y’shua was sacrificed for us and is risen from the dead. But the people that confess and believe this are saved (Rom.10:9-10) and there is no reason to withhold baptism in water from them. These are already regenerated if they are saved whether or not they have been baptized in water. They already have the Holy Spirit inside of them at this point.

    I agree BUT it is only to an extent.
    A mentally ill person who can not confess or profess beleief, can be saved and should be Baptized. Since it is a gift, I see no reason why God can not partake it upon them.

    Another example would be kids. I see no reason that a kid cannot be Batpized. No reason a kid has to have same status a child of a pagan, heathen family. In the OT the mode of circumsion was used to include them in the community of God’s people.

    I assert this stance based on

    Col 2:9-14
    (circumsion was to be done in infantcy, before a child would profess)

    Acts 2:39
    “…the promise is for you and your children”
    Acts 16:31
    31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

    Other Acts that apply.
    And the stories of people households & families being Batpized. (phillipian jailer, Lydia, Stephnas)

    I agree that as an adult.. new to the faith, should profess repentance and be baptized. But the seed of believers, I see know reason to exclude them.

  8. The main pt at hand

    (Reponse to paragraph 4)
    I don’t not thing all that have been baptized are regenerated upon time of Baptism. In reply to your sentence of
    “there is no reason to withhold baptism in water from them. These are already regenerated”

    Many get Baptized still with questions and are not 100% sure or committed. But the deliver of the Holy Spirit can assit with this and led them to regeneration. While some are regenerated before hand thru hearing of the Gospel.

    I think it gist we are saying the same thing… but I hold that there is 1 Baptism as stated in Eph 4:5-7
    “5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.”

    With an honest eye…. If we view the Philippian jailer experience. He was Baptized in the middle of the night. At midnight they were freed, due to earthquake. His whole household was baptized later that night. I would not contend that all in his house household were regenerated before there Baptism. But this does not mean that the means of remission of Sin, appeal to God for a good conscience (1 Peter 3:21), deliver of Holy Spirit , does not go into effect.

    You are saying Baptism of Water, Holy Spirit and Fire are separate events. But I contend it is one baptism, and regeneration that happens or happen previously. Maybe is jus terms that we differ on.

    (Paragraph 1 & 3)
    This seems like symantics… but yes… Baptism and regeneration do not always or typically happen at the same time. I know u say “Baptism of Holy Spirit, but that’s a term I don’t fully agree with.
    (paragraph 2)
    Yes, we agree. It had not been sent by the Father to all yet

    I think the key thing is…. What do you think the signicance of Acts was? What did the Apostles view it as? I say this, cuz most of the “Baptism of Holy Spirit” view is based from Acts.

  9. Ty,

    We need to agree on the term Baptism with the Holy Spirit because that is what the Bible calls it. We need to agree that there is baptism in fire for those that refuse Messiah. We need to agree that baptism in water is not the same as either of the above.

    We are immersed in water as a confession of faith and out of obedience to the word. A man does this to us in Messiah’s name/authority.

    In scripture we see believers being baptized with the Holy Spirit either before or after baptism in water…never at the same time. This baptism is usually brought on by prayer and the laying on of hands. Y’shua is the one that baptizes with the Holy Spirit. No man can do this as we are unworthy just like John was.

    We also need to agree that there is a thing called being baptized into the body of Messiah that is done by the Holy Spirit at conversion. This is the point that we drink into the Spirit, but it is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    So there are three types of baptism for the believer that are easily recognizable in scripture. With water, with the Holy Spirit, and into the body of Messiah.

    A physical man baptizes us into physical water.

    1 CO 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    Messiah only baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit.

    Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Messiah.

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    The passage that says that there is one baptism is referring to the one that saves us. The one that makes us one body. This passage is not a doctrinal statement about there only being one kind of baptism. It is a call to unity.

    Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The passage above is about the same thing as this one:

    1 CO 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    14 For the body is not one member, but many.

    Do we agree yet?

    Shalom

  10. 2 questions then:

    1.
    “We are immersed in water as a confession of faith and out of obedience to the word”

    Where is baptism worded as a “confession of faith or and act of obedience”?

    2.
    Where is Baptism of fire describe as for people who rej the Messiah.

  11. Ty,

    Are you in agreement with the rest of what I posted above?

    Baptism with fire:

    Matthew 3
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Luke 3
    16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
    17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

    He is the only one that is worthy or has authority to condemn for eternity, i.e. send someone to the lake of fire to be burned up like chaff.

    John 5
    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    The wheat, He gathers to Himself. The chaff is burned up. This is speaking of people as the following parable shows:

    Matthew 13
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Act of obedience:

    It is commanded and therefore if we do not get baptized we are disobedient. So it is an act of obedience to Messiah.

    Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    By being baptized we are publicly confessing our allegiance/faith to Y’shua. It is our answering His call to follow Him 100%.

    1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    I am not saying that these two things are all baptism in water is, but that these are basically our side of it. It is also symbolic of our dieing to sin and being resurrected to newness of life. The point that I was trying to make is that Baptism in water is a physical thing and is separate from baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    Shalom

  12. Ty,

    Acts 16
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    We do not know how old those of his house were. They may have all been adults or at least children old enough to make a decision to follow Messiah. But we do know that the word was preached to them and they evidently believed and were baptized. It wasn’t that if he only believed that his whole family would be saved, but that whoever believes in Messiah will be saved and that applied to everyone in his house.

    Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    This verse does not necessarily mean that babies should be baptized but that the promise was for their descendents too and to those that are far off in location and time too. The word for “children” is generic meaning “offspring” and does not mean baby or young child. Repentance was a necessary requirement for being baptized according to vs. 38. I am not putting an age limit on the baptism, but I do not think that babies can repent and enter into covenant for themselves.

    This is a side note to your off topic so do not worry about it as far as our main discussion. 🙂

    Shalom

  13. Hey BO,

    I got a promotion at job, so my time is extremely limited now (promotion + 2 kids + wife….limited time). I truly enjoyed our talk. But I am actaully on way to a meeting as I type this.

    I havent even listen to the shows this week. Once I get used to teh job, I will be back on teh post board.

    Thanks for all teh references. Im always tryin to learn or at least understand other peoples view.

    God Bless

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