Dr. Brown Interviews Young Earth Creation Scholar Dr. Jonathan Sarfati

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This is your day to call in with your most difficult questions about science, evolution, and the Bible. If you are confused about the Bible and science, if you hold to an old earth creation view, or if you are a devoted Darwinian evolutionist, your calls to Dr. Sarfati are welcome. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The more you look at science rightly the more you understand God is the glorious, amazing, infinitely wise Creator.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let us step back from the controversies and the disagreements; and with awe let us worship God the Creator.

SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY!  

This week only Dr. Brown is offering Jonathan Sarfati’s classic book, “Refuting Evolution?”, plus a CD copy of Dr. Brown’s two hour Line of Fire interview with Dr. Sarfati for the special discounted price of just $20 Postage Paid!

Call 1-800-278-9978 or Order Online!

Other Resources:

Scientific Discoveries that Point to the Creator

An Interview with Dr. Fazale Rana on the Origins of Life

Dr. Brown Interviews Dr. Hugh Ross and Dr. Fuz Rana on Hidden Treasures in Job, Why the Universe Is the Way It Is, Creating Life in the Lab, and the Cell’s Design

322 Comments
  1. I strongly disagree with post 249. I lost count of the false or misleading statements.

    I have already explained why I contacted CMI about their Facebook page. Bo ignores my explanation and instead resorts to virtual libel/personal attacks (not that I have a thin skin but I will defend myself when falsely accused).

    YECs condone unfair and dishonest behaviour.

    Signing off ‘Shalom’ in the most recent posts above is inappropriate imho – given what precedes the word.

  2. Ashley,

    I do wish you peace…real peace with your creator. Not some shallow happiness that you might get from having fairness. And I still say that you do not really want fair. You have not divested yourself of your wealth to live in fairness as far as you can. I think that you want to have your cake and eat it too in regard to true fairness.

    YEC’s may be unfair, but not usually unjustly unfair…but evolutionary education is unjustly unfair…imposing their view upon children to the neglect of dissenting views regarding the scientific facts.

    But it really is not about fair. It is about justice, but you just do not get it. You were not just or justified to threaten and bring a personal matter in front of this audience that did not concern them directly while supposedly in search of fairness. Your cries for fairness are shallow. It was not fair or just to the one you accused to do what you did. It seems that you intended to tarnish Jonathan’s reputation in bringing this situation in front of us. So was it really about fair? But I digress.

    Shalom

  3. Bo

    Your last paragraph is full of bad judgments and wrong statements.

    What’s new?

    In case you are trying – yet again – to TWIST my words. I do NOT accuse Dr Sarfati of banning me from CMI’s Facebook page earlier this week. But he is a mouthpiece for CMI. I absolutely feel I have a right to raise the issue here. If Bo does not like that – tough.

  4. Nicholas Petersen
    “It just shows how blind you are Van. The vast number of totally secular scholars believe Jesus of Nazareth existed. I’ve tried to reason with you, as have others here, but you prove immune to even the most basic form of self-criticism.”

    >A Christian is calling someone else blind! That takes the cake! If every person in the world could suddenly recognize logical fallacies religion would completely disappear in an instant. You have just committed the logical fallacy known as the argumentum ad verecundia or an argument based on authority. You not only gave no evidence to support your claim you couldn’t tell me on what evidence these so-called scholars base their belief that Jesus actually existed either. That’s because there simply isn’t any evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed, as I clearly demonstrated. So if you think he Bible is accurate you believe Jesus existed but if you know it isn’t the you have no reason to believe in such a person.

    “I take your threat very seriously. Hitler also wanted to do away with us, but I have news for you as well:”

    >Once again e have a Christian telling the complete opposite of the truth. We have Adolph Hitler’s own words that prove you just told a big whopper:

    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler.

    Hitler stamped out atheism in his Christian nation. And we have many statements that prove Hitler’s devout Christian faith:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler

    Hitler loved Jesus and hated atheism. Hitler banned the teaching of evolution in the German public schools, banned abortions and banned atheists and atheism. These are all things you creationists agree with. So explain to me exactly where you creationists differ with Adolph Hitler or where you claim to anyway.

    Bo
    October 30th, 2013 @ 5:59 pm
    “Van,
    I guess you have proven what you have proven to who you can prove it to. And I have done the same. The conversation seems to be over.
    I still find it strange that many intelligent people, some of them atheists,throughout the ages have come to believe in the reality of YHWH and Y’shua…both physically and spiritually and that you deny even the physical existence of Y’shua.”

    >Well we both find that strange because studies done on the subject have revealed that the more educated and/or intelligent a person is the more unlikely it is that they will be religious.
    The fact is however, that for every new convert there are literally hundreds of people who end up coming to their senses and rejecting their Christian faith, college students especially.

    “It is your choice. They have investigated the evidence that has not changed much in 2000 years (except for more evidence for the accuracy of the Bible) and they think that it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not know of many believers in the gospel to have been scared into it. You think that that is the only reason for their belief. If that is what it takes for you to believe, I hope that you get scared out of your mind…and into your heart.”

    > Now that is a one big load of nonsense. What evidence? You couldn’t help but brag that there is all this archaeological evidence that supports the Bible. However when challenged to give your two best examples of this you failed to respond because you couldn’t find any evidence. I’m not going to be frightened out of my mind by the lies Christians tell the way you were. When Christians ask what it would take for me to believe I usually tell them a frontal lobotomy is the only thing that could make me believe something so ridiculous.

    Shalom
    Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D.
    October 31st, 2013 @ 12:22 am
    “Van, consistent with his evolutionary beliefs, still has a problem with truth. About Servetus, Van bloviates (October 30th, 2013 @ 12:48 pm):”

    > Dr. Sarfati is employing the same tactics used by neo-conservatives and other creationists: accuse your opponent of doing what you do. There are very long lists of the lies Jonathan Sarfati has told on the Internet, and they are well documented. We have a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black here.

    “Note how the italicized parts show that Van is lying. And he clearly implied that it was Servetus’ science that got him into trouble.”

    > According to Dr. Sarfati, Servetus was not murdered by John Calvin for his science. Nope, Servetus did not criticize anything based on science or the current scientific knowledge of the day. He criticized something that according to Dr. Sarfati was not based on science or had anything to do with science: Christianity. I have finally gotten Dr. Sarfati to admit that Christianity is not based on any kind of science. So I guess we can expect Dr. Sarfati to stop promoting creationism since he has now admitted it isn’t the least bit scientific. See you can get the truth out of creationists. You just have to trick them into admitting it. You still can’t figure out what’s going on here can you Dr. Sarfati?

    “The assertions collapse as soon as you hit them with hard evidence. I love to totally stump these propagators by asking them to present me with the name of one – just one – scientist burned, persecuted, or oppressed for their science in the Middle Ages.”

    > Are you kidding? EVERY scientist has been persecuted by Christians as long as there have been Christians. This is still going on today. We just don’t notice it as much today because Christianity has had its teeth and claws removed due to secular humanism and can no longer punish scientists. Are you saying that Richard Dawkins or say the scientists who work on climate change are not still being persecuted? Charles Darwin procrastinated for years before he released his findings precisely because he knew he would be persecuted by angry Christians. Had he waited any longer we would now be working with Wallace’s Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. Anyone can google a list of scientists persecuted by Christians and see that Sarfati’s claim is not only false but absurd. But then which of his claims are not?

    “About Van’s revisionism about Hitler (and who can trust someone who lies?), Germany was the place were Bible-denying liberal theology was rife. The Nazis planned to exterminate Christianity entirely. More documentation at The Darwin–Hitler connection.”

    >That is about the most self-contradicting idiotic claim I have ever seen! Oh sure, soldiers with belt buckles on that said,” God is with us” planned to exterminate themselves. I asked you to tell me where your ideology differs with that of the Nazis. You did not reply. Should I assume there is no difference? Hitler rejected evolution. So did Stalin. So do you.

    Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D.
    October 31st, 2013 @ 12:29 am
    “Hank Hannegraaf’s arguments against biblical (“young-earth”) creationism are infantile (see A review of his The Creation Answer Book. So are William Lane Craig’s—he is clueless about what biblical creationists actually believe.”

    > This is a typical creationist response. No evidence at all is given that Hank’s arguments are infantile or that Craig is clueless about what creationists believe. Instead he wants you to go to a creationist website that is chock full of outright lies and logical fallacies. Sarfati knows very well if he tried to make that case himself here I would destroy it and he doesn’t want anyone to see that.

    Nicholas Petersen
    October 31st, 2013 @ 1:54 am
    “Excellent, Jonathan, some of those lies needed a rebuttal. As for Van’s desire to see us Christians “run over,” a part of the article Jonathan cited on the Nazis and Christianity nicely illustrates how this desire of Van’s actually fits in with the Nazi’s attempt to eradicate Christianity.”

    > I don’t want to see anyone run over. I want to see an end to religion so we can all live together in peace. That’s not going to happen until we rid the world of the worst human tragedy in history: Christianity. The Catholic Church is still fairly vibrant. Why” They stepped out of he way of advancing science. In 1946 the Church decided that a rejection of the facts of evolution would bring an end to their religion. Now over 50 years later you Protestants still haven’t figured that out. Look at how many people are running as fast as they can from Protestantism. Your rejection of evolution, cosmology, anthropology, archaeology, astronomy, oceanography, geology, chemistry and the rest of modern science has killed your version of Christianity. Dr. Sarfati would like you all to believe that he only rejects evolution but the truth is he rejects all science, especially those branches of science I just mentioned.

    (citing Dinesh D’Souza):

    > As if this guy is a reliable source of information. You can’t believe anything religious spokespeople say.

    Indeed, the Nuremberg prosecutor, General William Donovan, documented copious proof that the Nazis planned to exterminate Christianity. The documents are now being posted online at the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion. Indeed, the Nazis wiped out 3 million Polish Christians (see Poland’s Holocaust: 6 million citizens dead: (3 million Christians and 3 million Jews).

    > Once again, that is not true. The Nazis killed anyone who did not believe in Jesus. About 11 million people were killed, atheists, agnostics, deists – anyone who did not profess faith in Jesus Christ. The Holocaust was just the latest Christian crusade to spread the faith.

    Bo
    October 31st, 2013 @ 4:18 pm
    “Ashley,
    Nevertheless it seems that you are using a form of extortion and threateng…and whining, if I may say so. Do you not think that public education censors out creationism and intelligent design? When the shoe is on the other foot it becomes uncomfortable…no? Some forums are open to every topic and its intricacies…others are not. If you want to be heard on creationist forums because you think it is just and fair, why don’t you lobby for creationism and intelligent design to be taught along side evolution in the classroom? Fair is fair.”

    > Bo. why don’t you lobby your own Christian colleges and universities to teach creationism and Intelligent Design? They all teach evolution as fact. What is so ludicrous about your demand is that you want to cram your religious nonsense into our public schools when your own CHRISTIAN colleges and universities not only reject creationism and ID but go to great lengths to distance themselves from it and the people who promote this garbage like William Dembski and Michael Behe. So why should public schools teach something that even Christian colleges and universities all reject? Our knowledge of evolution produces results such as vaccines, medicines, better food crops, effective poisons to kill the constantly evolving insect population and so on. What can creationism and ID produce other than religious delusions? Science has to be useful and produce results. Scientific theories prove themselves by being useful. Creationism disproves itself by being completely useless. You want tot each something tottaly useless. This is what homeschooling is for, making sure your kids learn nothing about science.

    Shalom
    ashley haworth-roberts
    October 31st, 2013 @ 6:04 pm
    “Your comparisons between my recent comments here and public education are entirely inappropriate. In the former facts are censored. In science education what is ‘censored’ is pseudo-science.”

    > Yes and even Christian colleges reject pseudo-science.

    “It is rather ironic that a creationist seeks to preach ‘fairness’ since they generally detest notions of fairness or tolerance because they are alien to the Bible.”

    >The Bible is a polemic against free inquiry and critical thinking. It calls skepticism a vice and faith a virtue when the truth is that skepticism is a virtue and faith is not only a vice it is a horrible character flaw that is indicative of cultural inferiority. The Bible calls the light of free thought darkness and the darkness Christianity has covered the world with is called “light.” We find in the Bible that the word “wisdom”is usd to exclude any basis except the divine. Human wisdom is disparaged as foolishness and equated with wickedness (1Cor 1:19-21). This definition is a tautology: Since wisdom is the province of God anything God does is “just,” “wise,” and “righteous,” even though it seems wrong to humans. I could go on all day about just how wrong the Bible is about EVERYTHING.

    “Pseudo-science is in the eye of the beholder. The latest news is that the scientific establishment can’t find any dark matter that should be there according to their theory. If it is in fact not there, they have been teaching pseudo-science. The same goes for evolution.

    > You can’t find that kind of willful ignorance outside of creationist circles. We see the effect of dark matter. So what Bo is saying is similar to saying that a shadow is not evidence that there is something casting that shadow. Why don’t you read up about a subject before you expose your ignorance of that subject? Oh that’s right, science is from the devil. Hahaha

  5. A Christian is calling someone else blind! That takes the cake! If every person in the world could suddenly recognize logical fallacies religion would completely disappear in an instant. … there simply isn’t any evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed… So if you think he Bible is accurate you believe Jesus existed but if you know it isn’t the[n] you have no reason to believe in such a person. — Van

    Oh Van, you are to be pitied. Since you will only listen to people who live in your own camp, read this article by Bart Ehrman.

    Bart well describes the kind of individual you are:

    That is the claim made by a small but growing cadre of (published) writers, bloggers and Internet junkies who call themselves mythicists. This unusually vociferous group of nay-sayers maintains that Jesus is a myth invented for nefarious (or altruistic) purposes by the early Christians who modeled their savior along the lines of pagan divine men … Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine. There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds — thousands? — of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.

    If you demonstrated even the faintest ability to listen to criticism of any form, I could still dialogue with you Van. But you are not looking for dialogue, are you? So you continue to say things like the following, which disqualify much of anything else you say to be taken seriously:

    Are you kidding? EVERY scientist has been persecuted by Christians as long as there have been Christians.

    Yeah, right. Like Isaac Newton, one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, who was a Christian to such a degree, even a young earth creationist, that he wrote more on biblical studies than he did on science. Or like Michael Faraday, or like Nicolas Steno (father of modern geology, also biblical creationist and advocate that the flood explains the geologic record). On Newton, I know what your response will be. It will be to point out that Newton had some questionable theology over against orthodox Christianity. But that criticism was not against his science, now was it? But will you listen to this? No of course not. With this, I pray for God’s mercy on you Van, I will let you have the last word.

  6. For others who are interested in the truth about Hitler and Christianity, and the absolutely absurd and dishonest notion that he was somehow a Christian, see this review of Richard Weikart’s book, or just get the book: Hitler’s Ethic: The Nazi Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress.

    Although Hitler often disdained religion in private comments to colleagues, he used God talk publicly for what appears to have been calculated political purposes. If he truly thought himself a “theist,” then he was a theistic evolutionist with a liberal Christian view of theology (as were many Nazis), explains Weikart. In a public speech delivered in 1943 Hitler responded to a religious critic by declaring himself “profoundly religious on the inside.” Hitler explained what kind of religion he had in mind: divine Providence weighs humanity by means of natural selection. In a 1945 proclamation he elaborated on this thought: “Providence does not show mercy toward the weak. Instead it only recognizes the right to live for the healthy and strong.”

  7. Van the Mendacious continues in this manner, and shows that he is unwilling to inform himself of the truth. My articles already cited have documented the claims. E.g. William Lane Craig shows no evidence of familiarity with biblical (“young earth”) creationist arguments:

    WLC: God created the world in 6 consecutive 24-hour days about 10,000 to 20,000 years ago.
    JS: For many years now, major creationist organizations have taught that it’s about 6,000 years ago. See Biblical chronogenealogies (2003) and How does the Bible teach 6,000 years? (and response to questions about this article). …

    WLC: God created the world in 6 consecutive 24-hour days about 10,000 to 20,000 years ago.
    JS: For many years now, major creationist organizations have taught that it’s about 6,000 years ago. See Biblical chronogenealogies (2003) and How does the Bible teach 6,000 years? (and response to questions about this article).

    The Darwin–Hitler connection:

    Various atheopaths have pointed to the belt buckles in Hitler’s army as alleged proof of his Christianity, since they said ‘Gott mit uns’ (‘God with us’). However, this was merely the traditional slogan of the main German armed forces or Wehrmacht (‘defence force’), a slogan dating inherited from Kaiser’s Imperial standard of 1870. Such buckles are found in German WW1 uniforms too, so atheopaths (and some of their compromising churchian allies) are simply ignorant to claim that they are Nazi insignia. Furthermore, the Wehrmacht for a long time banned soldiers from being members of any political party (the Nazis lifted this ban), so it was not a Nazi army by definition. So the presence of ‘Gott mit uns’ means little more than these same atheopaths using American money with the motto ‘In God We Trust’. As further evidence, the genuine Nazi army, the Waffen SS, replaced ‘Gott mit uns’ with ‘Meine Ehre heißt Treue’ (‘My honor is named loyalty’). (Waffen SS = armed SS, where SS was Hitler’s paramilitary organization the Schutzstaffel, ‘Protective Squadron’).

    Van the Mendacious still can’t name any scientist persecuted for his science, which is why he is still thrashing around with that heretic Servetus.

  8. I had always wanted to read some things Adolf Hitler wrote or said himself, rather than hear what others tell about the man.

    After reading here some things he said, (I assume that the information is accurate) I recognize Hitler as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    I remember how Jesus taught that if his disciples were of this world they would fight, doing things by force.

  9. Nicholas Petersen
    “Oh Van, you are to be pitied. Since you will only listen to people who live in your own camp, read this article by Bart Ehrman.”

    Bart Ehrman is not in my camp. People in my camp don’t make fatally flawed arguments. I’m to be pitied? That’s hilarious! I just explained to you what the logical fallacy known as An Appeal to Authority is and precisely why it is not any kind of evidence and why no one should accept these kinds of lame arguments. What do you do? You post a statement by Bart Ehrman that is another Appeal to Authority! You couldn’t even recognize this fallacy even after it was explained to you! Notice Ehrman doesn’t present a shred of evidence that Jesus actually existed but just tries to denegrate people who don’t believe Jesus existed which is another logical fallacy known as Ad Homenim – attacking the messenger and avoiding the message altogether. Ehrman tried making that same dumb argument on the Infidel Guy’s radio show. Infidel Guy kept pointing out that Ehrman was using smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that he had no real evidence. Ehrman got so frustrated I think he actually started crying. Listen to the podcast. Poor Bart’s voice just kept gtting higher and higher as the Infidel Guy refused to accept Bart’s argument correctly pointing out that arguments are not evidence and Ehrman had no actual evidence. You said, “Bart well describes the kind of individual you are:” See you do it to. You attack me instead of presenting evidence to make your case. The reason for that should be obvious to you by now: you don’t have any evidence from sources independent of the Bible that Jesus Christ ever existed. Gerald Massey, John M. Robertson, W.B. Smith and Arthur Drews are some of the many scholars who have said that Jesus Christ never existed. So Bart Ehrman is lying when he says real scholars all agree with his superstitions about Jesus. And since I have four scholars who agree with me and you have only one who agrees with you my Appeal to Authority beats yours 4 to 1. You therefore lose this debate using your own methodology for determining the truth. My statement stands: Jesus Christ never existed. Do you now understand why your logical fallacies prove nothing except for the fact that you have no real evidence to support your claim?

    “If you demonstrated even the faintest ability to listen to criticism of any form, I could still dialogue with you Van. But you are not looking for dialogue, are you? So you continue to say things like the following, which disqualify much of anything else you say to be taken seriously”

    >True to form for a creationist you accuse your critic of doing what you do. YOU are the one who can’t stand any kind of criticism. I respond to your challenges and you ignore mine. Anyone can look back through these posts and see that. I posted Adolph Hitler’s own words showing that the loved and worshiped Jesus Christ. You post comments made by people other than Hitler saying this isn’t so. Who should we believe? The man who said these words or people desperately trying to hide the fact that Hiter was indeed a Christian?

    Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D.
    November 3rd, 2013 @ 2:59 pm
    “Van the Mendacious continues in this manner, and shows that he is unwilling to inform himself of the truth. My articles already cited have documented the claims. E.g. William Lane Craig shows no evidence of familiarity with biblical (“young earth”) creationist arguments:
    WLC: God created the world in 6 consecutive 24-hour days about 10,000 to 20,000 years ago.
    JS: For many years now, major creationist organizations have taught that it’s about 6,000 years ago. See Biblical chronogenealogies (2003) and How does the Bible teach 6,000 years? (and response to questions about this article). …”

    > Dr. Sarfati thinks he can prove things by cutting and pasting nonsense from creationist websites. Why don’t you step up to the plate and present your own arguments? The answer is because you know I will destroy them and everyone here will see how weak they really are.

    “Van the Mendacious still can’t name any scientist persecuted for his science, which is why he is still thrashing around with that heretic Servetus.”

    After and because Bruno defended Copernicus, the Inquisition arrested him, tortured and burned him at the stake. Campanella was tortured several times by the Inquisition for a number of heresies, one of which was writing Defense of Galileo. Protestants wanted to murder Rene Descartes and his books were placed in the Index of Prohibited books.The Church argued against the findings of Edmond Halley, Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler for over a century.
    William Buckland, Charles Lyell, Louis Agassiz, and Adam Sedgewick all set out to prove the Noah flood story. They discovered the world was very old. For their intellectual honesty, they came under terrific attack from the Church, which hurled epithets like “infidel,” “impugner of the sacred record,” and “assailant of the volume of God.” Their geology was condemned as “a dark art,” “dangerous and disreputable,” “a forbidden province,” “infernal artillery” and “an awful evasion of the testimony of revelation.”

    Thankfully legitimate scientists have taken the time to refute all of your arguments promoting Young Earth Creationism. Anyone can look these refutations of your arguments on the Internet. The only thing that keeps Young Earthism alive is that other creationists have been trained to ignore criticisms of your arguments and taught that these are evil and from the devil.
    .
    Bo, can you tell me why public schools should teach creationism when your own Christian colleges and universities will not? I didn’t think so. You probably didn’t even know that.

    Dr. Brown, I should tone it down? How about Dr. Sarfati and his name calling? I must assume that’s fine with you because you agree with his point of view. Had I responded in kind I would surely have been banned from posting here. I’m not complaining just pointing out that you have a different standards which depend solely on a person’s point of view. Free speech is not a right granted on Christian blogs which lets us all know what would happen to the right of free speech if Bible believers ever got control of our government.

  10. The Genesis account of the first man is actually a retelling of the much older Heliopolitan Creation myth. The Egyptian Coffin Test 80 is the Heliopolitan Creation myth. It tells us about the first man named Atum and his two children Tefnut who is identified as the principle of life and Shu who we are told is the principle of moral order. These are of course the two principles associated with the two magic trees in the Garden of Eden. The text tells us that Atum was instructed by the Creator God to eat of his daughter, the principle of moral order. In Genesis God forbids Adam to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So if the biblical account comes from Egyptian doctrine why do the stories differ on a major part of the story? The Egyptians believed if you lived a moral life Osiris would grant you eternal life. However the Hebrews were monotheists and so the notion that humans could ever become like gods and live forever contradicted the concept of their religion. This particular religion teaches that you can never achieve eternal life even through a knowledge of moral order. In the Hebrew religion God tells you what you need to know and how you should behave and you obey because God tells you to do it, not because you will be rewarded or because you will live forever. This is one way we can be sure that despite the claims of the New Testament writers, the Church and Christian apologists Christianity has no connection to Judaism and has no roots in Judaism. Constantine, the true founder of Christianity decided that if he included some Hebrew scriptures he could bring the Jews on board to his new universal religion. He didn’t realize that most Jews were not ever going to buy into a religion that teaches something as ridiculous as belief in an afterlife.

    It’s just incredible that someone like Dr. Sarfati, or anyone for that matter, can believe that these stories in Genesis are actual historical accounts. All he or anyone confronted with these stories has to do is a small amount of research to find out where these stories really came from. But he didn’t do that. Instead he let other people convince him these stories just MUST be believed or he would suffer a fate far worse than death. Then he spends the rest of his life coming up with lame excuses why others should believe what he does. If Dr. Sarfati wants to claim his creationist arguments are scientific then these arguments must be treated as if they are in the realm of methodological naturalism. If that is the case then the only reasonable conclusion is that there is no credible evidence to support the conclusion that any god exists, or that the laws of the material universe need to be extended to account for any alleged supernatural phenomena. If you frame God as a scientific hypothesis, it can be scientifically refuted.In other words the psycho-cultural hypothesis is a much better and more parsimonious explanation for the belief in God than the actual existence of such a being.

    Now Dr. Brown chooses to have faith in an un-falsifiable God, a God that lives outside of the realm of science. Once a person’s faith has retreated outside the realm of science then science is not the proper tool to use to examine this faith because such a God cannot be scientifically proven to exist or to not exist. However once outside the arena of science believers must surrender their pretense to knowledge and they must admit their beliefs are based solely on faith. It would be nice of Dr. Sarfati would admit that his beliefs are based solely on faith rather than trying to defend the indefensible. The universe is not just a few thousand years old. And your creation myth was plagiarized as was the rest of your holy book. I hope that clears a few things up for everyone.

  11. I have just been addressed by ‘Cropes’ under one of the reviews of Dr Sarfati’s 2010 book at Amazon.com. As follows:

    “Mr Haworth-roberts,
    God clearly created Göbekli Tepe in its buried state in situ. This
    was
    an easy task for an omnipotent creator. In His wisdom, He rigged the
    carbon decay of the charcoal He placed there to appear as if it were
    much older than the true age of the Earth.
    Although I do not presume to know the mind of God, He probably did
    this as a test of faith for us, much in the same way as He created
    the
    photons in the night sky to make them appear as though they came from
    stars millions of light years away.
    I have not heard of Çatalhöyük or Nevalý Çori but these were probably
    created by God too. (Or possibly Satan.)
    Like D. Pentz, I was surprised to learn that Charles Babbage, who was
    born in an age when over 99% of England was Christian… was actually
    a
    Christian! If this isn’t proof that the Bible is The Word Of God, I
    don’t know what is!
    How can you deny the proof of the Creation when the 18th Century
    inventor of vaccinations, Edward Jenner, was a Creationist? This is
    an
    actual *fact*! (Unlike evolution.)
    Further proof is the fact the Hitler would probably lived and died an
    Austrian painter if it wasn’t for Darwin.
    Like D. Pentz, I treat your evolutionary canards like water off a
    crocoduck’s back.
    Evolution really is a religion. My very good Roman Catholic friend is
    wrong when he says he is Christian. This he will learn, to his cost,
    on
    Judgement Day.
    Dawkins really is a high priest and he will receive exactly the same
    deserved punishment of eternal hellfire as murderers, rapists, my
    Roman
    Catholic friend, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Jehova’s Witnesses, Born
    Again Christians who accidently had a lustful thought and then got
    hit
    by a bus before they had time to repent… and you!
    Despite you posting the longest, detailed, precise review I have ever
    seen on Amazon, giving page numbers as reference for each of your
    points, I too think that you clearly haven’t read the book. This
    makes
    you a Bearer of False Witness on top of everything else. I am sure
    that
    God will have a word with Satan so that he reserves a special place
    in
    Hell for you. (One that’s even worse than eternal hellfire.)
    Think on my friend, think on”.

    http://www.amazon.co.
    uk/review/R12ZQOC9LKJT02/ref=cm_cr_rev_detup_redir?
    _encoding=UTF8&asin=B0041KKS0C&cdForum=Fx1JEETNX55KRKE&cdPage=1&cdThread=Tx35V5ZNKJTODD6&newContentID=MxRTDHZRML57NA&newContentNum=4&store=digital-
    text#Mx27CDCE119061M

    I will just make one comment on all this. I DID, as I have already told this person, carefully read both ‘The Greatest Hoax on Earth? Refuting Dawkins on Evolution’ and the 2009 Dawkins book that Sarfati claimed to refute.

  12. Another attempt to post the link in a clickable form (but if that does not work then the accusatory and wide of the mark ‘review’ – followed by Cropes’ accusatory and wide of the mark comment – is by D Pentz at Amazon.com.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R12ZQOC9LKJT02/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0041KKS0C&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=#wasThisHelpful

    My own review there (it’s also at Amazon.com) obtained 29 ‘helpful’ votes and 16 ‘unhelpful’ votes by the way. Which would be quite an achievement if I had NOT read Sarfati’s book.

  13. Sorry, it’s at Amazon.co.uk where Cropes wrongly called me a ‘Bearer of False Witness’.

  14. Ashley,
    I think the creationists have given up. The brave man, or woman, knows when they are beat and so they surrender, hoping to live to fight another battle another day. Only the coward fights on after all hope is lost, afraid to face the consequences of defeat. You have to admire the courage, if that’s what it is, of someone who challenges almost every branch of science without any evidence to support their claims and who instead arms themselves with the kinds of arguments you re-posted above. “In His wisdom, He rigged the carbon decay of the charcoal He placed there to appear as if it were much older than the true age of the Earth.” Huh? These people say that truth is a person, a person who rigged something to make things appear different than they really are. This is a great example of the supposed “truth” claims Bible believers make which are often contradictory, incoherent or both. So obviously at least some of them are not true. I say none of them are. How about you?

  15. Well Dr. Brown,
    The hypothesis of a God that lives within the realm of he natural world has been falsified. So you believe in a God that science has proved does not exist. Since you admit to knowing little about science there is no way you can defend your claim of “absolute nonsense.” It’s easy to make that kind of claim Dr. Brown but I challenge you to back it up.

  16. Van
    I’m not sure that our friend Cropes is a very orthodox fundamentalist creationist Christian.
    I was an evangelical Christian for 20 years or so (though never into creationism). Looking back it feels like God never showed up (for me at least) and as various trials came along I slowly lost faith. I feel that if God exists he pretends not to and believers are forced to base their faith on sacred books, claimed personal experiences or claimed miracles, and the appearance of fine-tuning in the universe/solar system and of seeming design within living cells – largely circumstantial things.
    I have also found many online young Earth creationists to be people who are convinced from scripture that any critic they encounter must of necessity be a ‘liar’ – and thus they seek to prove to themselves and to their fanbase/peers that they did lie (even when they didn’t). I refer to people such as Jason Lisle, Jason Petersen, Bob Sorensen (details are in threads at the BCSE community forum – which organisation such YECs, and also Dr Sarfati and David Anderson, wish to portray as ‘atheopathic’: http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/HomePage).
    I do not seek to undermine a Christian’s faith in Jesus. My ‘crusade’ if you like is against what I perceive as attacks on science by apologists who claim that their own frequently bizarre and un-historical notions are ‘true’ science – mainly against young Earth creationists though OECs and ID proponents sometimes undermine science too.
    Ashley

  17. Ashley
    Thank you for your response. I’m sorry that you had to waste 20 years of your life in intellectual servitude to false beliefs. These creationists hate us and call us liars but don’t ever bother to consider the fact that we might just be trying to help them. Notice that when I challenged Dr. Sarfati to post his best arguments for creationism he flew the coop. Unlike Dr. Sarfati, apparently Dr. Brown doesn’t realize that his arguments are indefensible. I wrote: “Dr. Brown chooses to have faith in an unfalsifiable God, a God that lives outside of the realm of science.” His response was: “Absolute nonsense.”

    Okay Dr. Brown this is how it works. You have to tell us precisely what would falsify the hypothesis that the Christian God exists. If a hypothesis is scientific then it can be falsified. For example if we found fossils out of place in the geological column such as fossils of amphibians or mammals in the Cambrian layers that would falsify the Theory of Evolution. No such fossils have or will be found and so that is how we know evolutionary theory is correct. So the question is what evidence would prove that the Christian God does not exist? What test can we give the Christian God? Hint: “God will not be tested” is not an acceptable answer unless you want to now admit that your God is indeed un-falsifiable. Your move.

  18. Van,

    Love is not falsifiable, but I think that we agree that it exists. You believe many things that cannot be proven scientifically.

    “I do not think there is a demonstrative proof (like Euclid) of Christianity, nor of the existence of matter, nor of the good will and honesty of my best and oldest friends. I think all three are (except perhaps the second) far more probable than the alternatives. The case for Christianity in general is well given by Chesterton…As to why God doesn’t make it demonstratively clear; are we sure that He is even interested in the kind of Theism which would be a compelled logical assent to a conclusive argument? Are we interested in it in personal matters? I demand from my friend trust in my good faith which is certain without demonstrative proof. It wouldn’t be confidence at all if he waited for rigorous proof. Hang it all, the very fairy-tales embody the truth. Othello believed in Desdemona’s innocence when it was proved: but that was too late. Lear believed in Cordelia’s love when it was proved: but that was too late. ‘His praise is lost who stays till all commend.’ The magnanimity, the generosity which will trust on a reasonable probability, is required of us. But supposing one believed and was wrong after all? Why, then you would have paid the universe a compliment it doesn’t deserve. Your error would even so be more interesting and important than the reality. And yet how could that be? How could an idiotic universe have produced creatures whose mere dreams are so much stronger, better, subtler than itself?”― C.S. Lewis

  19. I have demonstrated enough that Van’s understanding of the history of the church and science is garbled, and that he is careless with the truth. Van still defends Bruno, although as cited, one atheist said, “Giordiano Bruno is presented as a wise and noble martyr for science instead of the irritating mystical New Age kook he actually was.” He also fails to understand that Copernicus was a canon of the church in good standing, and that Oresme, a bishop of the church, had defended geokineticism 200 years before.

    Van has merely added more crackpot ideas like Genesis being a copycat of Egyptian mythology. Of course, anything beyond Van’s superficial understanding shows up the huge differences. For example, the waters of Nu pre-existed Atum, who was therefore not like the Creator God of the Bible.

    Van also brings up the hoary old conspiratorial nonsense about Constantine, although there was consistent biblical and patristic evidence of all the doctrines of Christianity in the preceding centturies.

    Then we see that that obsessive apostate ashley haworth-roberts was never much of an evangelical, because by his own admission he held a liberal view of Genesis.

  20. “I have demonstrated enough that Van’s understanding of the history of the church and science is garbled, and that he is careless with the truth. Van still defends Bruno, although as cited, one atheist said, “Giordiano Bruno is presented as a wise and noble martyr for science instead of the irritating mystical New Age kook he actually was.”

    > Here we have Dr. Sarfati defending his religion for killing an innocent man. Who cares what Bruno believed or said? No one should be killed for such reasons. It’s unfortunate that Dr. Sarfati does not believe murder is wrong even though his holy book says it is, at least under certain circumstances. However if God commands you to murder innocent people that’s not only okay, it’s divine as the Bible clearly demonstrates in story after story.

    “He also fails to understand that Copernicus was a canon of the church in good standing, and that Oresme, a bishop of the church, had defended geokineticism 200 years before.”

    > That is a lie. The Church hid the findings of Copernicus until 70 years after he died. It’s unfortunate that Dr. Sarfati does not believe lying is wrong even though his holy book says it is. That is unless these lies are told to defend the faith, indoctrinate the masses or innocent childen. Then as Romans says it is in Chapter 3, lying for the faith is divine.

    “Van has merely added more crackpot ideas like Genesis being a copycat of Egyptian mythology. Of course, anything beyond Van’s superficial understanding shows up the huge differences. For example, the waters of Nu pre-existed Atum, who was therefore not like the Creator God of the Bible.”

    > Wrong again. The Bible describe the earth as formless void covered by water, exactly like the Egyptian text and the Babylonian text about Marduk, which is where the first two chapters of Genesis are plagiarized from. Dr. Sarfati claims to be an expert on a book even though he has no idea where it came from. I don’t think people who believe dinosaurs and humans co-existed should be accusing anyone else of holding crackpot beliefs.

    “Van also brings up the hoary old conspiratorial nonsense about Constantine, although there was consistent biblical and patristic evidence of all the doctrines of Christianity in the preceding centturies.”

    > Oh sure there is. Precisely what is this evidence? It’s easy to say there’s evidence but let’s see you produce it. Hint: Church “documents” are not acceptable evidence.

    “Then we see that that obsessive apostate ashley haworth-roberts was never much of an evangelical, because by his own admission he held a liberal view of Genesis.”

    > Of course it’s just fine for Dr. Sarfati to say someone else isn’t mush of a Christian but when I said that about him, I was given a warning by Dr. Brown who thinks that is some kind of insult. So here we have the double standard that is used to moderate comments on this blog. If you’re a Christian anything goes as long as you are criticizing atheists. However atheists are not given the same kind of freedom to express their thoughts. So who is really afraid of the truth here?

    > Now where are those young earth arguments I asked you to present Dr. Sarfati? I don’t think you are brave enough to present them to a critic because you know very well they will not stand up to scrutiny. Creationist arguments only have to be good enough to convince people who desperately want to believe them anyway.

  21. “Then we see that that obsessive apostate ashley haworth-roberts was never much of an evangelical, because by his own admission he held a liberal view of Genesis.” I was not intolerant like YECs, that is true.

    But Dr Sarfati – who avoided my Amazon.com review of his 2010 book despite numerous promptings about it because he had previously argued with other critical reviews of his book at Amazon – is trying to put words into my mouth. The reality is that I did not know WHAT to make of the opening chapters of Genesis and that they were rarely an issue either for me personally or (then) at Westminster Chapel (which has only gone YEC in recent years; I left in 1995 and moved to the Church of England for several years).

    The evasive Dr Sarfati also ignores my recent query to CMI about why I was suddenly banned from the CMI Facebook page even though I did not break the rules of the page. The answer appears to be that I was banned because of what I MIGHT write – if not rapidly banned by those monitoring the page.

  22. Then we see that that obsessive apostate ashley haworth-roberts was never much of an evangelical, because by his own admission he held a liberal view of Genesis.

    … which is why he is still thrashing around with that heretic Servetus. (post above)

    Brother Sarfati, when I hear you call someone ‘that heretic’ or ‘that apostate,’ I can’t help but feel you’re missing the mark of speaking the truth in love. My sincere hope for Ashley is that he will turn back to the Lord! Even if he is obsessive (given the posts on many sites with demands), being called “that obsessive apostate” probably will not help towards that goal. And then when you call someone who was burned at the stake by a wicked church “that heretic Servetus” … boy, shouldn’t we be apologizing for this wicked act? It almost feels like to the contrary, you are in a sense throwing another stone at him. When Jesus met “one of those heretics the Samaritans,” he didn’t wish her a warm spot in hell, he kindly spoke with her and showed her astonishing love, even while clearly speaking the truth of her people’s error.

    God bless.

  23. I see that there is some new material here, dated November (I’ve only had time and energy enough to skim it but the blogger is a. a Christian so does not of ‘necessity’ have an anti-YEC ‘agenda’ and b. worth reading based on what I thought of his earlier material back in August and September):
    http://greatesthoaxonearth.blogspot.co.uk/

    (I’m not trying to have the last word, honest.)

  24. Nicholas Petersen, I must admit that I’m not a fan of false apology syndrome, as Theodore Dalrymple puts it:

    But official apologies for distant events, however important or pregnant with consequences those events may have been, are another matter entirely. They have bad effects on both those who give them and those who receive them.

    The effect on the givers is the creation of a state of spiritual pride. Insofar as the person offering the apology is doing what no one has done before him, he is likely to consider himself the moral superior of his predecessors. He alone has had the moral insight and courage to apologize.

    On the other hand, he knows full well that he has absolutely no personal moral responsibility for whatever it is that he is apologizing for. In other words, his apology brings him all kudos and no pain.

    I don’t resile from calling someone a heretic. First, this doesn’t mean one supports executing the heretic. Second, remember that Van the Mendacious was holding him up as an example of someone executed for his science, so I was showing the correct reason.
    ashley haworth-roberts really is an apostate, so I fail to see the problem with telling the truth. Also, he is the one who keeps obsessively pestering Christian websites.

  25. Dr. Sarfati you owe the entire world an apology for attempting to foist creationist nonsense as science. It would have been nice had you stepped up to the plate like an adult and accepted my challenge to post your best creationist arguments right here so I could show everyone why they don’t stand up to scrutiny. Obviously you don’t want anyone to see your arguments get annihilated. People who have bought your books might demand you refund their money.

  26. “Also, he is the one who keeps obsessively pestering Christian websites.”

    I point out to them their untruthful statements about science. Instead of refuting me they put me on ‘ignore’. I will continue as necessary.

    I have already flagged here that it is not only atheists and sceptics who challenge some of Dr Sarfati’s science claims but also some Christians who dare to think instead of merely thinking what they are instructed to think.

    I am a (reluctant) ‘apostate’ because God has treated me like dirt for 55 years, including throughout the more than 20 years that I was a practising evangelical Christian. And he also treats some other people utterly abysmally too.

  27. Actually, what I ‘pester’ is YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST websites. Sarfati, by using the adjective, ‘Christian’, presents a MISLEADING
    impression. YEC ideologues do not (at least) claim they are the only true Christians – thus their sites are not the ONLY ‘Christian’ websites. And I am NOT ‘anti-Christian’.

  28. And more than three years after I posted it, Sarfati has not informed me whether or not he ever read my very detailed review of ‘Hoax’ at Amazon.com.

  29. Ashley,
    >>I am a (reluctant) ‘apostate’ because God has treated me like dirt for 55 years,

    How has God treated you like dirt?

    Sincere question, BTW. I really want to know.

    In my observation, people tend to argue intellectually but, ultimately, it comes down to an experience, good or bad.

    I don’t demean this, either. If you life as been bad, of course this is going to shape your view of God.

    But, also in my observation, seasons of “apostasy” are often a path back to peace with God.

  30. Ashley,

    I think I found your review. Wow, it is a long one!

    Yours isn’t alone. LOTS of people replied to him with long reviews.

    Why do you even bother, if he is so ridiculous to you? Why not just ignore him?

  31. I had a sort of mental breakdown early in 2004, made several unsuccessful suicide attempts, and now use a wheelchair. I recovered mentally but then lost my faith in a loving god (as well as my employability hence I have a lot of time on my hands). I mentioned Sarfati ignoring my review because earlier in 2010 he challenged earlier reviews by others of the same book at Amazon.
    I agree that my review is probably too long – I could not decide what (else) to leave out.

    Not seeking attention over this, just trying to answer Greg’s question.

  32. Ashley,

    Are you sure that you haven’t treated yourself like dirt? Are you sure that you didn’t bring much of your situation upon yourself? Are you sure that your actions didn’t treat other people like dirt? Are you sure that you didn’t treat YHWH like dirt? Did it ever occur to you that He can play your game better than you or that He could give you dose of your own medicine? Are you sure that you are not simply reaping what you have sown?

    If all you ever wanted or believed in was a loving god, are you sure you were not believing in a false god?

    The Elohim that is revealed in scripture is not just loving. He is also just and righteous. He does not take kindly to the idea of murdering…even if it is oneself. Did you ever repent to your creator for attempting to take your life? By attempting suicide, you became your own god…deciding for yourself right and wrong. “Thou shat have no other gods before me” is a serious statement. If you hate YHWH by your actions, do you think that He will just let it go…especially when you entered covenant with Him and promised to love and serve Him forever?

    What does high treason deserve? The death penalty. It sounds to me like you have been dealt with quite mercifully by a loving Elohim and that you are thinking you deserve even more, when in actuality you have gotten way more than you deserve.

    Deuteronomy 7
    9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
    10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

    Galatians 6
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

    Hebrews 10
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
    38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    I am wondering if you can find it in your heart to get down on your knees and repent so as to not go on into perdition. Will you consider returning to your first love and go back to doing your first works? Will you come to your senses and save yourself from this untoward generation?

    Acts 2
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    Revelation 2
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    James 4
    6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
    7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
    8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
    9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
    10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    The choice is yours. You can go on being your own god and thinking that you are great and that you deserve better, or you can humble yourself and repent. If you keep going down the same path of pride, YHWH will resist you. If you humble yourself, you just may find space to repent and joy unspeakable. Sour or sweet, it is your choice.

    1 Peter 1
    6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    Shalom

  33. Ashley, I’m really sorry things took that downturn, and I am very glad those attempts ultimately failed, even it that is part of what maimed you, which I grieve over. I can say in Christ: I love you. He loves you. I hope you’ll feel and know his love again.

    God bless, Nicholas

  34. Ashley,

    Thanks for sharing your story. I am so sorry that happened to you. I can’t imagine what the last ten years have been like for you.

    I haven’t been following you posts enough to know why you are an “apostate” but I generally don’t think in those terms. I figure that you are working out the world in a way that makes sense for you. I wish you the best in that.

    The Psalmists do much the same thing and some of their challenges to God might be called “apostate” if they said that in a modern church!

    But I do have a question — hardship and suffering pushes some people to deeper faith while it pushes some people away from faith (as seems to be your case.)

    I honestly can’t say why but I’ll guess you have some insight. Do you?

    (PS — I have to say again, this is not some trap or challenge. I really want to know. I’m the token liberal Christian here, so I don’t preach as much!)

  35. Ashley,

    As for the young-eath creationist issue. I don’t see a point in debating it. It requires such a gigantic leap of faith, I doubt that any sort of logic, facts or science is going to change a person’s mind.

    (And, I say this as a person who has taken a few gigantic leaps of faith, myself! )

    From hearing Sarfati on the radio, I can’t imagine him shaping his religious beliefs to accommodate any sort of empirical data. He has said as much.

    So, I have to wonder — what’s in it for you? I suspect that it helps you, personally, to debate totally faith-based guys like him.

  36. Greg,

    The major difference between those who draw closer to YHWH or those who react against Him in times of tribulation is pride vs humility. It is the difference between those that think that they deserve more or better compared to those that are grateful for what they have been graciously given. The difference is between those that think that they are good or worthy compared to those that realize that even life itself is a gift from above and that they do not even deserve that. The difference is between those that seek glory and pleasure for themselves as compared to those that seek the glory and pleasure of YHWH. The desire for instant gratification and/or justice is a great indicator of pride and self-centeredness. Faith in ultimate justice coupled with deferred gratification is a good sign of humility.

  37. Greg,

    Suicide is the ultimate in pride and self-centeredness. It is the final attempt at ridding oneself of the claim of lordship by his creator. It is the final cry of a soul that has tortured itself by feeding on lust for more and better because it thinks that it deserves such instead of accepting the will and purpose of its Creator and thus humbly and gratefully bowing to YHWH. Suicide it the ultimate in self worship. Enduring hardships gratefully and gracefully is true worship of ones creator and it is enduring till the end…and thus being saved.

    Hebrews 13
    13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
    14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
    15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

    James 1
    2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
    3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
    4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

    Hebrews 10
    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

    I am one of those that preaches the truth in love instead of allowing people to continue in sin on their road to destruction without warning them. I guess some people need to be comforted and coddled while they perish for eternity and some need a jolt applied to their consciences before it is too late. As foolish as you think preaching is, it is what saves people.

    1 Corinthians 1
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Romans 10
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

  38. “Suicide is the ultimate in pride and self-centeredness”. I very much hope you NEVER experience despair or betrayal, Bo.

  39. Ashley,

    I already have many times and in many ways. Deep ways for long periods of time.

    I haven’t been able to work because if disability for over 15 years. I have been in extreme pain off and on for those years. I will likely live the rest of my life this way. I had a son contact meningitis at 3 months of age and he was completely handicapped for the rest of his 20 years. We fed him and changed his diapers and watched him suffer extreme pain of muscle contractures for 20 long years. My father disowned me because of a small disagreement. I could go on and on.

    I have a choice. I can blame YHWH for not coming through when I needed Him or I can bow and worship Him and be thankful for all the things that have not gone wrong. I can learn lessons that most will never have the opportunity to learn. I can receive comfort in ways that most will never know. I can suffer with Messiah or add to His suffering by being a stubborn and self-willed son.

    You have the same choices.

    I do not mean to be callous, but I speak from experience. It is truth you need to hear and humility you need to embrace to get out of your self-made situation. It is your responses to what has happened to you that makes you who you are. You have not been betrayed to the degree that you have betrayed YHWH. You need to get out of your pity party and stop looking at life through your shortsighted tunnel vision.

    You can continue to spit in your creator’s face or you can humble yourself under the mighty hand of YHWH. Those are the only two options. There is no in between.

    If suicide is not the ultimate in self-centeredness and pride, who pray tell were you thinking of when you attempted it? You were thinking of you and you only and a way to end the responsibility and self inflicted pain. You need to grow up. You have not been given more than you can handle.

    The questions I asked were not rhetorical. Have you repented and humbled yourself? Who did you treat like dirt? Who did you commit high treason against? You can stay bitter or get better.

    May you take this to heart and cry out to YHWH for the ability to repent.

  40. Our Father YHWH in heaven,

    Please give Ashley a vision and a realization of the pain that he has caused you and his fellow human beings. Please grant him repentance unto life. Allow Him to cry and repent and humble himself to You. Let him see his idols for what they are. Soon!

    In the name of Y’shua haMashiach.

    Amein

  41. Whilst I sympathise with your situation as described above, you have no right to judge me in the manner you also do above.
    I experienced mental illness in 2004 (I do not wish to elaborate). Perhaps God or Nature made you better able to cope with life’s stresses. If so, then perhaps you should not equate other people’s character and life experiences with your own. (Based on the Bible the Christian God of course judges everybody the SAME way even though their characters and their life experiences are NOT remotely the same – that is crude and unjust.)

  42. Ashley,

    I did not tell you my story for you to sympathize with me. I told it to assure you that I have experienced extreme enough grief and betrayal to know what the cure is. It is humility, realizing that we have gotten way better than we deserve and being grateful to our Creator. Since you refuse the cure, don’t bemoan your sickness.

    You wrote:
    “(Based on the Bible the Christian God of course judges everybody the SAME way even though their characters and their life experiences are NOT remotely the same – that is crude and unjust.)”

    The statement above proves your ignorance of what the Bible teaches. You are obviously totally self absorbed. You think that you know better than the Creator of the universe. You also do not correctly represent his justice. (You do not know what the scripture teaches.) Who are you judge whether the one that made you is unjust or not? If He made you, you are His to do with as He pleases. He owns you. He gave you the gift of life and offers you a free gift of salvation. You worship yourself and are an abomination to Him whilst you continue in this rebellion.

    It is time for you to get over the fact that you had a mental illness and attempted to kill yourself. What matters is what you will do now with the information that you have been made aware of concerning your pride.

    You think that I have no right to judge you, but you think that you have the right to judge YHWH. That, my friend, is utter hypocrisy. For you to judge that I have no right to judge is also hypocritical.

    As far as YHWH’s justice, we all will be judged according to the deeds that we have done in our bodies. Some of us will be judged with more severity than others. If you are really less able to cope than someone else, then there will be accommodation made. But you are not the judge as to whether or not you are more feeble.

    Luke 12
    47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    1 Corinthians 3
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    James 3
    1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

    Romans 2
    4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    You can continue to be contentious or you can humble yourself. Humble yourself and live.

  43. Bo,

    You guys have gotten way off topic and anyway you need to back off the “get over mental illness” jabs. You can’t just “get over” ALS or MS or countless other diseases. Mental illness is a disease not necessarily just a frame of mind. My nephew has Bi-polar Disorder and I can assure you his frame of mind has nothing to do with the mood swings that come over him. It’s terribly sad to see it happen right before your eyes.

  44. Sheila,

    I made no jabs at mental illness. I had a half brother that was insane, an employee that was manic depressive, and a father that was an alcoholic that went from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde and back. All that said, suicide is the ultimate self worship. Rejecting Messiah is rebellion. Pride is pride. Humility is the only cure to self worship, pride and rebellion.

    Shalom

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