Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions Live on Memorial Day!

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What’s my view on the scholarship in the Hermenia commentaries? What is the meaning of “lawlessness” in the New Testament? How did the man in Mark 9:39 drive out demons in Jesus’ name if he had only given authority to do so to his 12 disciples? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As I reflect on the chaos and confusion of the world around us, all the more is it imperative for us to know who we believe, to know what we believe, and to know why we believe.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We can divide over non-essential doctrines.  It’s much more important that we work together as one majoring on the majors.

 

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Other Resources:

What It Means to Walk in the Fear of the Lord and Another Edition of You’ve Got Questions We’ve Got Answers

Can We Preach the Gospel Without Talking About Sin? (And further thoughts on bullying and anti-gay violence)

Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions (including Is the Mosaic Covenant Eternal?; Soul Sleep; Does God Create Evil? and Still More on Gay-Related Suicides)

162 Comments
  1. Sorry Sheila and Benajamin. Been busy with work and family lately and have gotten behind. I have many questions to respond to :). I will try to get to them this weekend (at least some of them)…. lots of posts to read.

    Benjamin… that is crazy that you knew the author of that article!

    Sheila,

    In regards to your question concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in an earlier post. I see an earthquake in Rev 11 where 7000 people die. However, I do not see anything that comes close to what Jesus predicted would happen in Luke 21 – the armies surrounding Jerusalem and Jews being led away captive into all nations. Luke 21:20-24 describe the “days of vengeance” on Jerusalem.

    In Luk 21, Jesus is describing the event that was predicted by the prophet Daniel:

    “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined”

    Jesus makes clear earlier in Luke that this event was because Israel did not know the time of their visitiation:

    Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
    Luke 19:43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,
    Luke 19:44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

    The events in the book of Revelation do not describe these events at all, but events that take place after church history (starting in Rev 4:1) and events that will happen in Jerusalem and the world prior to the 2nd coming of Jesus (Rev 19).

    Blessings,
    Peter

  2. The Length of this post is due to Scripture quotation. So as far as other words, it’s very short, but quotations have made it LONG! I may cut the quotations down in the future and just give scripture refernce depending on what is being conveyd.

    *****

    The term ‘the day of the Lord’ is the most common term in the Old Testament for the Tribulation. There are a number of passages that deal with the world in general, and other passages which deal with Israel in particular during that time. This first post will include those dealing with the world in general and then a follow up post containing the Israel passages.
    *****

    The Day of the Lord passages (dealing with the world in general)

    The frist is Isaiah 2:12-22 which emphasizes the terror of the Lord that will be manifested at that time.

    Isaiah 2:12-22

    12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

    13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

    14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

    15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

    16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

    17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

    18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

    19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

    21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
    *****

    The second is Isaiah 13:6-16 which elaborates on the first purpose of the Tribulation, to make an end to wickedness and wicked ones.

    Isaiah 13:6-16

    6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

    7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:

    8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

    9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

    13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

    15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

    16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
    *****

    Third, Ezekiel 30:1-9 describes the effects of the Day of the Lord on the Middle East nations, particularly on Egypt.

    Ezekiel 30:1-9

    1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!

    3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

    4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.

    5 Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.

    6 Thus saith the LORD; They also that uphold Egypt shall fall; and the pride of her power shall come down: from the tower of Syene shall they fall in it by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

    7 And they shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are wasted.

    8 And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have set a fire in Egypt, and when all her helpers shall be destroyed.

    9 In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
    *****

    Fourth, Joel 1:15-20 stresses how the Day of the Lord will affect the crops of the earth.

    Joel 1:15-20

    15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

    16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

    17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.

    18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

    19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

    20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
    *****

    Fifth, Obadiah 10-20 describes the effects on the land of Edom, present-day southern Jordan:

    Obadiah 1:10-20

    10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

    11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

    12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

    13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

    14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

    15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

    17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

    18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

    19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

    20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
    *****

    Sixth, Zephaniah 1:14-18 portrays the Day of the Lord as a time of darkness and distress, and also refers to the first purpose of the Tribulation:

    Zephaniah 1:14-18

    14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

    15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

    16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

    17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

    18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
    *****

    Seventh, in II Peter 3:10-12, the Day of the Lord is described as a time of burning for the earth: the process by which the earth will be burned is by the fiery judgments contained in the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.

    2 Peter 3:10-12

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    *****

    In summary, then, the Scriptures give some general descriptions of the Great Tribulation as a time of darkness, torment, anguish, turmoil, confusion, death, and massive destruction, especially by fire. There will also be enough time for the effects of failing crops and famine to be felt by the peoples of the world during the Day of the Lord.

  3. Next are the passages that deal with Israel in particular during the Day of the Lord.

    Another term for the Day of the Lord/Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s trouble”.

    Jeremiah 30:4-7

    4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

    5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

    6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

    7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
    *****

    While it is true that the whole world will during that time, Israel will receive double based on Israel’s relationship to God as God’s first born (Ex. 4:22) and, therefore, Israel receives double, both in blessings and cursings. This is expressed in Isaiah 40:1-2:

    1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

    2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

    It is also confirmed my Jeremiah 16:16-18. This is why the Tribulation/Day of the Lord is uniquely the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.
    *****

    A graphic general description of Israel in the Tribulation is found in Isaiah 3:1-4:1, due to its length I will not quote the passage but give a brief summary.

    Verses 1-15 describe the effect of the Tribulation on the Jewish leaders. This is followed in 3:16-4:1 with a description of the effects on Jewish women. It will involve the removal of their luxury items (3:16-24) and a sharp reduction of the male population until there will be seven Jewish women for each Jewish male (3:25-4:1).
    *****

    There are five Day of the Lord passages that directly relate the Great Tribulation to Israel. First, Ezekiel 13:1-7 describes the Day of the Lord in relation to the false Jewish prophets in the Tribulation.

    Due to the multiplication of false prophets, Israel will require a mass cleansing, described in Zechariah 13:2-6:

    2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

    3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

    4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

    5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

    6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
    *****

    Second, in Joel 2:1-11 the Day of the Lord is depicted as a time of darkness and invasion:

    1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

    4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

    5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

    6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

    7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

    8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

    9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

    10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

    11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
    *****

    Later, in the third passage, Joel 3:14-17, the Day of the Lord is descried as the time of refuge for Israel:

    14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

    15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
    *****

    Fourth, in Amos 5:18-20 the Day of the Lord is again depicted as a time of darkness and a time when no one can escape the judgments at hand:

    18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

    19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

    20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
    *****

    Fifth, in Zephaniah 1:7-13 the Day of the Lord is portrayed as being especially heavy against Jerusalem:

    7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

    8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord’s sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

    9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters’ houses with violence and deceit.

    10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.

    11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.

    12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The Lord will not do good, neither will he do evil.

    13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
    *****

    Verse 13 just above tells us that ‘during’ the Day of the Lord, they will build houses and plant vineyards but shall not inhabit them or drink the wine, indicating the elapsing of time.

    So in these two posts looking at the Day of the Lord passages we can see that this Day is a lengthy period of time and not one day. Crops fail which no one would care about if it was only for one day. Vineyards are planted. Houses are built. Invasions and other tribulations are ascribed to the Day of the Lord. Many things requiring time.

    In summary of the Israel Passages:

    Five Day of the Lord passages directly relate the Great Tribulation to Israel: first, Ezekiel 13:1–7 describes the Day of the Lord in relationship to the false Jewish prophets in the Tribulation. The multiplication of false prophets among Israel will require a massive cleansing (Zechariah 13:2–6). Second, Joel 2:1–11 depicts the Day of the Lord as a time of darkness and invasion. Third, Joel 3:14–17, describes the Day of the Lord as the time of refuge for Israel. Fourth, Amos 5:18–20, pictures the Day of the Lord again as a time of darkness. Fifth, Zephaniah 1:7–13 portrays the Day of Jehovah as being especially burdensome on Jerusalem.

  4. Though Dr. Brown disagrees with my position on the rapture, during today’s show a few minutes ago he agreed with me on Air when he said “a day in Hebrew is like a day in English, it could mean part of a day, a 24-hour day, or, as in the Day of the Lord it could mean years.” What a coincidence that while I was writing about the length of the Day of the Lord, Dr. Brown discusses the topic on air simultaneously.

  5. Hey Peter,

    I thought you’d dropped out for good. Welcome back. I’ll look over your post again too.

    Wow Benjamin,

    That’s a lot to get to but I’ll do it!

    About the coincidence–I’ve been having a lot of pre-cognitive experiences myself lately. Guess it’s just coincidence but…it’s still really strange when it happens!

    I see many of the same Scriptures I’ve used in your posts and I actually used Joel 3 as the jumping off place in prophecy as he covers pretty much all of it.

    Not saying the day of the Lord can’t be years, just saying the day of wrath sounds like one particular day to me. I’m trying to work out the bowls and trumpets as they seem to overlap each other in their placement (not at present though). Admittedly, Revelation is a very difficult book full of symbolism borrowed from the FT prophets but then reapplied in a different way, using some of the same expressions but with a different slant, a bit of a spin on them.

    I’ve picked up working on condensing and wrapping up my thoughts on the other post. I used the abbreviated chapters and verses to save space. I hope it’s not to tedious to follow.

    Let me get busy again after dinner. I’m famished!

    Thanks guys!

  6. Not that the day of the Lord “is” years long but it could be years in coming is how I see it. Also judgments are not necessarily the day of fierce wrath at the end of the age. It’s the same in Revelation. Judgments are strewn out over what appears to be a space of months, years even, but as far as I interpret it there’s only one particular day of wrath.

    I can be persuaded. I’ve changed my mind over the years before. I used to believe a mid rapture was how it went but the more I studied the further away I got from that theory. Now I’m a post-tribulational (can I use that word like that?), pre-wrath believer. But, then, that’s believing it’s one day as opposed to seven years long.

  7. Benjamin–

    2 Peter 3:10-12

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    *****

    I place 2 Peter at the very end of the millennium. I also think that’s when the war of Gog and Magog takes place. It says satan is loosed and gathers an army from the four corners of the earth and they come against the city of un-walled villages which had been always waste but that’s been brought back to life. That’s when fire comes down from heaven and consumes them! No more messing around! It curtains for him…and those with him. That’s for another time too.

    Oh well, just wanted to squeeze that in.

  8. Hello Sheila,

    Looking at the parable of the ten virgins, we will also need to include 4 other parables. These parables are contained in Matthew 24:43-25:30, and Mark 13:33-37.

    The Messiah presented five parables, all having as their main point the urging of watchfulness, readiness, and laboring. In all these parables the distinctions are between believers and non-believers. The former will be ready, while the latter will not.

    In the parabolic method of teaching, a parable or a series of parables are given and then the application is made. The application of these parables will be made to the judgement of the sheep and goats.

    1. The parable of the Porter — Mark 13:33-37

    This first parable emphasizes watchfulness, and He uses the term ‘watch’ four times. This parable refers to the Second Coming. The phrase, for ye know not when the time is, is further clarified by the phrase, whether at even, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or in the morning. Although the day of the Second Coming will be known once the Tribulation starts, the time of the day is not.

    The main point of this parable is the emphasis on the watching for the Lord’s return. Watching is always in the sense of readiness, and readiness is always in the sense of salvation; only those who are saved are going to be able to escape these things.

    2. The Parable of the Master of the House — Matthew 24:43-44

    The emphasis of the second parable is on readiness: therefore be ye also ready. Again, being ready can only be obtained by means of salvation.

    3. The Parable of the Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant — Matthew 24:45-51

    The emphasis of the third parable is on laboring. The next two parables provide a more extended treatment of the emphasis of the first three parables.

    4. The parable of the Ten Virgins — Matthew 25:1-13

    25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    2 And five of them were foolish, and five were wise.

    3 For the foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them:

    4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    5 Now while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

    6 But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him.

    7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out.

    9 But the wise answered, saying, Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you: go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

    10 And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut.

    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.
    *****

    The emphasis of the fourth parable is on watchfulness (watch therefore) and readiness (they that were ready). The virgins represent neither the Church nor Israel in this parable, but simple server to illustrate a point. From the Old Testament, the contrast of the wise and the foolish is a contrast between believers and unbelievers.

    In the Jewish wedding system, when the marriage was to be consummated, the bridegroom would go to the home of the bride to fetch her and bring her to his home. As he approached his own home, he would be met by a procession of virgins who would conduct the bride and groom for the marriage ceremony to be followed by the marriage feast. This is the background of this parable.

    When the ‘bridegroom’, the Messiah, returns to earth with His Bride–the Church–for the marriage feast, the ‘virgins’ will be responsible for both watching for His return, and being ready to light the lamps upon His return. The five ‘virgins’ who were wise will be the ones who are believers; hence, they will be both ready and watching. They are the ones who have the ‘oil’, a common symbol of the Holy Spirit. Only the wise ones enter the marriage feast, the common symbol for the Messianic Kingdom. Because the Messiah is pictured as already with His Bride, the Church which had been raptured, these who have the ‘oil’ are people who became believers during the Tribulation. They are saved and invited to the wedding feast as guests. The five foolish virgins will be the unbelievers and, therefore, will be neither ready nor watching. They do not have the ‘oil’.
    In this parable there is an extended emphasis on watching and readiness, both of which are accomplished by faith in Jesus the Messiah. Only wise ones enter the marriage feast.

    5. The Parable of the Talents — Matthew 25:14-30

    The point of the fifth parable is to reemphasize, in an extended way, the necessity ‘to keep laboring while watching and waiting’.

    The Judgement of the Gentiles — Matthew 25:31-46

    The Olivet Discourse comes to an end with the Judgement of the Gentiles and it is here that the application of the five parables is made:

    31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:

    32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

    33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;

    36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?

    38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.

    46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

    The ‘time’ of the judgement will be after the Second Coming of the Messiah when the Throne of David will be set up (v. 31).

    The place of the judgement is not given in this passage, but it is given in a parallel passage found in Joel 3:1-3. This is a judgement that will take place just outside of the City of Jerusalem in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, which lies between the city and the Mount of Olives.

    The subjects of the judgement are individuals; this will be an individual judgement rather than a national one (vv. 32-33). The Greek word translated ‘nations’ has the primary meanings of “gentiles” and is so translated elsewhere in the New Testament. All the Gentiles who survive the Tribulation and the Campaign of Armageddon will be gathered into the Valley of Jehoshaphat and will then be separated by the Messiah; some are brought to His left side and some are brought to His right side. Those who are brought to His right are called ‘sheep’ Gentiles, and those brought to His left are called the ‘goat’ Gentiles.

    The basis of this judgement is going to be anti-semitism or pro-semitism. The individual Gentiles will be judged on the basis of their treatment of the Messiah’s ‘brethren’, namely, the Jewish people during the Tribulation (vv. 34-35). Some have tried to make the term ‘brethren’ refer to saints in general, bit this would render the passage meaningless. There are three specific groups mentioned in this passage: the ‘sheep’ Gentiles, the ‘goat’ Gentiles, and the ‘brethren’. If the brethren are saints in general, then who are the ‘sheep’, since they, too, have eternal life? Form this context alone, it should be very evident that the ‘brethren’ must refer to Jewish people because the saints are the ‘sheep’ and the unsaved are the ‘goats’. Furthermore, the parallel passage of Joel 3:1-3 makes it certain that these ‘brethren’ are the Jewish people of the Tribulation.

    1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

    2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment upon them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations: and they have parted my land,

    3 and have cast lots for my people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.

    The term ‘brethren’ here is used in the sense of “brethren in the flesh”. The fact that only Matthew records this segment of the Olivet Discourse also teaches the same truth since his is the most Jewish of the Gospels and his primary concern has been how Messiah’s coming has and will affect the Jewish people.

    The sheep, who are the pro-semites, are clearly stated to be the righteous ones. Will they be saved, then, because of their pro-semitism? This cannot be, for that would mean their salvation was purely on the basis of works. This passage is an example of James 2:14-26, proving one’s faith by one’s works. Because these Gentiles are already believers in the Lord Jesus the Messiah, they will refuse to join the policy of the antichrist in his attempt to destroy the Jews. SO while Jews will undergo a great persecution, these believing Gentiles will do what they can to help the Jews under these conditions. Their works towards the Messiahs brethren will prove their faith. In this manner, they are the ones who will be watching, ready, and laboring in accordance with the admonitions of the five parables. Because they are saved Gentiles, they will be allowed to enter the Messianic Kingdom, and they will be the ones who will populate the Gentile nations during the Messianic Kingdom (vv. 34-40).

    On the other hand, the goats will be the anti-Semites who will show their lack of faith by their works. They are the ones in violation of the five parables. For this reason, they will be excluded from the Messianic Kingdom (vv. 41-45).

    The ultimate and final result after the Kingdom is that the believing Gentiles will enter into eternal life while the unbelieving Gentiles will enter into eternal punishment (v. 46).

  9. Benjamin,

    The goats and sheep as believers and non-believers sounds reasonable with the exception of the goats being anti-Semites. I’d never thought of that before. I think probably all who hate Israel hate the Lord first. So, is that the great white throne judgment?

    –“When the ‘bridegroom’, the Messiah, returns to earth with His Bride–the Church–for the marriage feast, the ‘virgins’ will be responsible for both watching for His return, and being ready to light the lamps upon His return.”

    Previous to that statement you gave the example of the Bridegroom and the Bride. You, yourself, said the Bridegroom comes “for” His bride–not “with” His bride. I’m confused about the wedding example, not that I’m not familiar with it, but that I think you read into it something that’s not there to fit your theory.

    “The ultimate and final result after the Kingdom is that the believing Gentiles will enter into eternal life while the unbelieving Gentiles will enter into eternal punishment (v. 46).”

    What of the children who aren’t old enough to chose? What happens to them? People that have never heard? I’m not sure the Gospel will “literally” go to the very remotest regions of the world. It could but I don’t see that as a deal breaker and Messiah is just, who wouldn’t slay those who are still babes.

    I also believe that we (the Church) will already be in our resurrected bodies when the Millennium begins. The Jews will reign over those who are left alive but not over the members of the Body of Christ, the Church. It says we will reign with him. Who are we reigning over if there’s no natural people? It doesn’t make sense otherwise. I understand the message of the goats and sheep but what of the other verses that have us to understand otherwise? I don’t know.

    Not just that but who is it that satan gathers together at the end of the millennium to come up against Jerusalem? There must be people who still have the evil inclination and they still want to annihilate Israel. Sounds like it to me.

    I don’t know if I’ll finish, today, the examples I’d like for you to consider. There’s a lot of my getting waylaid in my studies and in the garden. 🙂

  10. You must type really well and probably fast–not me. I’m always backing up to correct missed keys and such every few words. Frustrating, but I persevere. Sometimes it gets to be a bit much and I call it quit for a while–regroup and start again.

    It took me four minutes judging by the clock on my computer to write four sentences. That’s really poor. 5 now!

  11. Benjamin — “You will notice that in Corinthians, Paul has been showing the connection between New Testament truth and the Feasts of Israel. For example, in 1 Cor 5:6-8 he talks about the Feasts of Passover and Unleavened bread and shows how this is fulfilled in Jesus’ death. In chapter 15:20-24 he speaks about the Feast of First Fruits and how this was fulfilled with Jesus’ resurrection. Now, in 1 Cor 15:51 he talks about the ‘last trump’ and connects that with the resurrection and rapture of the church. This is simply a fulfillment of another Jewish feast – the Feast of Trumpets.

    “In another article by Fructenbaum he writes:
    “The seven holy seasons of Lev 23 are fulfilled in the order in which they fall. What follows the Feast of Trumpets is the Day of Atonement, which was a day of Israel’s national atonement coupled with the affliction of the soul. The Day of Atonement is to be fulfilled by the seven years of Tribulation , during which Israel will suffer afflictions leading up to her national repentance and restoration. And just as the Feast of Trumpets precedes the Day of Atonement, so will the rapture precede the seven years of tribulation.'”

    I’m familiar with the Feasts of the Lord and with 1 Corinthians 5 and 15 and I agree that the rapture most likely takes place on the last day of the Feast of Trumpets or even the Day of Atonement as that is when the remnant of Israel will repent en masse and the Lord will at that time receive all of His Church on the day of His appearing. (1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 1:10; 2Ti 4:1; 2Ti 4:7-8; Tts 2:13; 1Pe 1:6-7) Paul was certainly familiar with the feast days of Israel and would have celebrated them every year. Who better to be able to apply the greater meaning of the various Feast Days to the Lord than Paul or the other disciples? (1Cr 15:21-23; Isa 26:19; Hsa 6:2; 1Pe 1:18-20) I’m sure he knew in what way the “last trump” would have been understood by other Jews but I’m thinking the gentiles he was teaching most likely had no idea. I think that’s why Paul was discussing it with them. (Eph 3:1-11; Rom 11:33 That, and some were troubled thinking that day had come and gone already. Paul knew how the Lord had fulfilled the Spring Feasts and naturally expected Jesus to fulfill the Fall Feasts as well. I discussed earlier my view on 1 Cor 15:51-54. The last trump is the rapture, which happens in a flash, and all believers, dead and alive, will instantaneously put on immortality. I don’t see where it says anything about us leaving and then coming back 7 yrs. later. And as I said earlier, a great big chunk of His Church would be M.I.A..

    Peter,

    I certainly don’t see where one day, the Day of Atonement, is stretched out for 7 years! That makes absolutely no sense to me to read that into that one feast day. The most I would think would be 10 days of Awe which fall between the Feast of
    Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement.

    I think one thing that might help you both understand my position on the rapture is the way I understand the day when the Lord comes to be “glorified in His saints.” (2Th 1:10) I don’t see how He would get any Glory by sneaking in, snatching His Church away to Heaven and then having a wedding feast for 7 years. Not just that but Scripture states that He will also “marry” Israel too. Have any worked out when that will take place? I don’t see two separate weddings or two separate brides. Maybe two brides but the type doesn’t fit having two unless we think of Jacob. That fits. Although, maybe you don’t see a wedding for Israel. Perhaps I will have to read Fructenbaum’s book after all. 🙂

  12. Good morning Sheila, I will start to reply to your questions from post #110. I hope you had a wonderful weekend. My parents flew into town and so I was spending time with them and my brother’s three children at the local arboretum. Tiring! 

    Also don’t fret about speedy replies. Take your time and don’t feel rushed. I just get eager so I dive right in.

    “So, is that the great white throne judgment?”

    – No. This is a judgment that occurs just after the Messiah’s Return, of the Gentile nations. The Great White Throne Judgment occurs after the end of the Millennial Kingdom a thousand years later after Satan is loosed and begins his final rebellion. The basis of the judgment of the sheep and goats is told in the passage; it’s based on how they treated his ‘brethren’, which reflects their relationship to Him. As I stated above, if they are pro-Semitic, they are believers. If they are anti-Semitic, they are so because they are non-believers and aligned themselves with the antichrist.

    “Previous to that statement you gave the example of the Bridegroom and the Bride. You, yourself, said the Bridegroom comes “for” His bride–not “with” His bride.”

    – He comes ‘for’ his bride at the Rapture. He comes ‘with’ His bride at the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation period. The parable of the Ten Virgins is concerning the Lord’s Second Coming, not the Rapture. I think that’s where the confusion came in. As far as the wedding example, the bridegroom is already married since he is taking the virgins to the ‘marriage feast’ which takes place after the wedding. Both Old Testament saints and Tribulational saints are invited as guests to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb which kicks off the Messianic Kingdom.

    “What of the children who aren’t old enough to choose? What happens to them?”

    – I believe scripture contains hints that children who have not yet reached the age of accountability (or condition of accountability) are raptured with the Church, and if there are children born during the Tribulation, they will enter into the Kingdom since they too will not have reached the age of accountability. Which ties into your quote about the Messiah being just. Amen.

    “I also believe that we (the Church) will already be in our resurrected bodies when the Millennium begins.”

    – Yes we will be. When the Church is raptured we will inherit our glorified bodies. So we do enter the Kingdom in glorified bodies.

    “Who are we reigning over if there’s no natural people? It doesn’t make sense otherwise.”

    – An interesting thing I noticed is that a lot of the things you assume I do not account for or hold to are the exact things that I ‘do’ believe in and hold to, such as natural people being in the Millennium. In my above post I hinted at this in the reference to the sheep and goat judgment passage. It is the sheep gentiles (gentile believers during the Tribulation) that Jesus invites to enter the Millennial Kingdom because of their faith. It is they that will reproduce and populate the gentile nations. Which ties into the passages which speak of children no longer dying in infancy and that they will live at least 100 years (Isa. 65:20)

    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    – I take this passage to mean that during the Millennium, natural people will have 100 years to accept Jesus as Messiah and savior. No one will die before they reach 100, but if one has not accepted the Messiah by 100, they passed the line of no return and may even die at that point. So at the end of the Millennium there will undoubtedly be a multitude of non-believers which shall align themselves with satan when he begins his final rebellion.

    “I understand the message of the goats and sheep but what of the other verses that have us to understand otherwise? I don’t know.”

    – Can you elaborate on this question? Which passages are you referring to? And to what ‘otherwise’ are you thinking about? I’m just uncertain to what you are asking with this one. Thanks.

    “Not just that but who is it that satan gathers together at the end of the millennium to come up against Jerusalem? There must be people who still have the evil inclination and they still want to annihilate Israel. Sounds like it to me. “

    – I agree with you. It is the offspring of the sheep Gentiles who must make their own decision regarding Messiah and many will rebel.

    I hope this helps to clarify some of the points you brought up. Feel free to ask any related qusstions.

    I will look at your other post #113 soon as I have not read it yet.

    Talk to you soon!

  13. “I don’t see where it says anything about us leaving and then coming back 7 yrs. later.”

    You have John 14:2-6 to deal with then. In your view of a post-trib rapture and immediate return with Christ, when does Jesus ever fullfil his promise to take us to Heaven as found in John 14?

    2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    4 And whither I go, ye know the way.

    5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    *****

    Here Jesus promises to take us to Heaven. This is clear by His satements that he is going to prepare a place for us. Where is He going? Heaven, to His Father. In verse 3 he says “and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” He will come and receive us to Himself and take us to where He was then going, Heaven. This is reinforced in verse 6 when Jesus says “no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” So he will receive us and take us to His Father.

    When does this promise get fullfilled in the post-trib view? It fits well with a pre-trib view.

    “And as I said earlier, a great big chunk of His Church would be M.I.A..”

    How so? The entire Church gets resurrected or translated at the Rapture. The Church at that point is gone and complete. The Church does not include Old Testament saints or post-Church saints (Tribulation saints). They are friends of the Bridegroom. Hence why John the baptist called himself a friend of the Bridegroom and why the wise virgins are invited to the marriage feast, but they are not the bride.

    You may need to clarify on this point as well if I missed your point.

    Thanks Sheila.

  14. Benjamin,

    I’m just now seeing your posts. I finished up condensing the best I could. I hope it still makes sense as my eyeballs are bulging out of my head! 🙂

    There are a few themes that run through all the prophets concerning the day of wrath. In prophecy it’s a day of cosmic occurrences such as the sun being darkened and the moon not giving it’s light. It’s said to be a day of thick, dark clouds with no lights visible in the sky which would make it a day of confusion and foreboding. I don’t know whether the heavens are actually perturbed or if it’s just symbolic language. I tend to believe it could be literal but I guess we won’t find out until that day. When the prophets speak of the judgment of the wicked they often disclose it with prophecies about what that day will be like for the righteous as well.

    In describing the last day there’s the contrasting images of light vs. darkness, wheat vs. tares, life vs. death on the day the Lord comes to judge the world. For us it’s glorious knowing light and life will follow the darkness, for the wicked death and destruction will come with the Lord’s wrath. We are not appointed to wrath but I don’t see how it can be interpreted to say we won’t have any persecution or testing of our faith at all. The Lord said “if they have hated me they will also hate you; if they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” (John 15:20) (Rev 7:13-14) Do you think it could be wishful thinking? Don’t get me wrong, I’ll be absolutely thrilled to find out you’re right!

    Below are some of the verses outlining the inference of there being one particular day in which the Lord will judge the earth and I believe because of Scripture that day is also the day of the rapture, which could very well be the Day of Atonement. (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 7:37; 11:24; 12:48) Other than the last trumpet I believe the others are judgments meant to give people space to repent, which, it appears an innumerable number of people “are” saved during the time of the tribulation but some of them still will not repent. How terrible for them. That day is meant to destroy unrepentant sinners and those who hate Him and His people. That only happens once. How many times can you destroy all in that group at the same time?

    In looking at the First Testament prophecies of the contrast of judgment and salvation I’ve decided to use Joel 3 as the foundation chapter. I’m giving only some of the supporting verses because there are so many of them. Towards the middle and until the end you can see the same juxtaposition of those who will be judged for their wickedness as opposed to those who will be blessed with the Lord’s mercy. It seems to me it’s going to happen at the same time. It’s going to be both a day of darkness – a day of light. A day of judgments – a day of mercy. The day of wrath – the day of the rapture!

    Joe 3:1 “For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
    (Zep 3:19-20, Deu 30:3, Psa 14:7, Psalm 85, Isa 11:11-16, Jer 23:3-8, Jer 30:3, 18; Eze 37:21-22, Eze 39:25, 28-29; Amo 9:11-14)

    Joe 3:2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. (Zec 14:2- 4, And I will plead with them them there on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, (Deu 4:20; Deu 9:26, 29; Deu 32:9; Psa 33:12; Psa 74:2) because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,
    Footnote:
    * Jehoshaphat means the Lord judges; also in verse 12.

    (Zep 3:8; Zec 14:2-4; Rev 16:14-16; Isa 66:16; Eze 38:22; Amo 1:11; Oba 1:10-16; Zec 12:3-4; Rev 11:18)

    Joe 3:3 and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it. (Eze 27:13; Oba 1:11; Nah 3:10)

    Joe 3:4 “What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will return your payment on your own head swiftly and speedily.
    (Oba 1:15; Amo 1:6-15; Zec 9:2-8; Eze 25:12-17; Eze 26; Deu 32:35; Isa 34:8; Isa 59:18; Luk 18:7-8)

    Joe 3:5 For you have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried my rich treasures into your temples. (1Ki 15:18-19; 2Ki 12:18, 14:14)

    Joe 3:6 You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their own border. (Eze 27:13)

    Joe 3:7 Behold, I will stir them up from the place to which you have sold them, and I will return your payment on your own head. ( Eze 25:15-17; Isa. 60:14)

    Joe 3:9 Proclaim this among the nations: Consecrate for war; stir up the mighty men. Let all the men of war draw near; let them come up. (Isa 29:5-7; 14:2, 3; Lam 1:15)

    Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, “I am a warrior.” (Zech 12:8)

    Joe 3:11 Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, and gather yourselves there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD.
    (Zech 14:3-3; Psa 96:13; Dan 10:13; 2Ki 6:16-17; Isa 13:3)

    Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

    Zec 9:8 And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passes by, and because of him that returns: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.

    Zec 9:15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

    Zec 9:16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

    Joe 3:12 Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
    (1Ch 16:33; Psa 96:13; Psalm 83, 98, Zech 12:1-3) (Psa 110:6 Isa 2:4 Mic 4:3, 11-13 Zep 3:15-19 Zec 12:9 14:3-11 Mal 4:1-3; Rev 19:11-14; Rev 18).

    Joe 3:13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Go in, tread, for the winepress is full. The vats overflow, for their evil is great.
    (Isa 63:1-7; Jer 51:33; Rev 14:14-15, 17-20; Matt 13:30, 39; Mark 4:29; Rev 14:15-16; Rev 19:15)

    Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save.”

    Isa 63:2 Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?

    Isa 63:3 “I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel.

    Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redeemed had come.

    Isa 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me.

    Isa 63:6 I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

    Isa 63:7 I will recount the steadfast love of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has granted us, and the great goodness to the house of Israel that he has granted them according to his compassion, according to the abundance of his steadfast love.

    Again, in Isaiah 63, the Lord tramples down people in His wrath but in the next sentence He is bestowing His steadfast love on His people. Same time frame, different outcome for two different groups of people.

    Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
    (Psa 2:1-3; Isa 34:1-8; )

    Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
    (the same language accompanies other prophets when speaking of the day of the Lord, so many I left them out)

    Joe 3:16 The LORD roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth quake. But the LORD is a refuge to his people, a stronghold to the people of Israel.
    (Mic 7:8 Rejoice not over me, O my enemy; when I fall, I shall rise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD will be a light to me.)

    That’s the same contrast we see throughout Scripture. The Lord roars from Zion and the heavens and earth quake BUT, the Lord is a refuge for his people.

    cont.

  15. cont.

    Sorry, the formatting was lost when transferring it.

    Joe 3:17 “So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who dwells in Zion, my holy mountain. And Jerusalem shall be holy, and strangers shall never again pass through it.
    (Psa 110:1-2; Isa 9:7; Jer 23:5-6, 15-16;)

    Here He’s speaking comfortably to Jerusalem, the city where He has placed His Name forever!

    Joe 3:18 “And in that day the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the stream beds of Judah shall flow with water; and a fountain shall come forth from the house of the LORD and water the Valley of Shittim.
    (Isa 55:13; Amos 9:13-14; Psalm 46:4; etc.)

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    The theme of soothing words continues. He’s going to restore their fortunes and supply for them all they need. A fountain of clear, clean water will flow from the throne of God. The wording is the same as the end of the age in Jeremiah 14 and Rev. 22.

    Joe 3:19 “Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

    Now He launches into the judgment of Egypt and Edom because of their fierce anger and because Edom (Esau) has “kept the old hatred forever.” He didn’t help his brother when it was within his power to do so, in fact, he furthered their desolation. These two are also types of the final conflagration at the end of the age and of all the enemies of Israel and the Church.

    Isa 63:1 –
    Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
    Isa 63:2 Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?
    Isa 63:3 “I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel.
    Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come.
    Isa 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me.
    Isa 63:6 I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

    Now Isaiah begins the contrast between the Lord’s favor on Israel right after he pours out the lifeblood of Edom. That’s the contrast of life vs. death, redeemed vs. cursed. It’s the day of the rapture of the Church together with the wrath of God. They’re both true at the same time.

    Isa 63:7 I will recount the steadfast love of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has granted us, and the great goodness to the house of Israel that he has granted them according to his compassion, according to the abundance of his steadfast love.

    Isa 63:8 For he said, “Surely they are my people, children who will not deal falsely.” And he became their Savior.

    Joe 3:20 But Judah shall be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem to all generations.
    (Isa 33:20; Eze 37:25; Amos 9:15)

    Joe 3:21 I will avenge their blood, blood I have not avenged, for the LORD dwells in Zion.”
    or,
    NKJV – Joel 3:21 –
    For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted; For the LORD dwells in Zion.”

    (Joel 2:27; Psalm 9:11; Psalm 76:2; Isa 12:6; Mic 4:7; Zeph 3:15)

    Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
    Psa 37:39 The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
    Isa 33:2 O LORD, be gracious to us; we wait for you. Be our arm every morning, our salvation in the time of trouble.

    The ruin of those nations are a type of the final overthrow of all the Lord’s enemies. It happens quickly and there will no longer be any delay. In opposition to their judgment is the salvation of God’s elect in the same breath. It’s the same theme in the book of Revelation. Would the pre-trib theory say the bride of Rev. 19 is Israel? Because I’m thinking it’s all of the Church, both Jews and Gentiles.

    Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
    Psa 37:39 The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
    Isa 33:2 O LORD, be gracious to us; we wait for you. Be our arm every morning, our salvation in the time of trouble.
    Isa 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
    Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (Isa 2:11, 19, 21)

    Rev 6:17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    ?!

  16. http://spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/contents.html#5.1

    Sheila and Benjamin,

    The link above is to an in depth scholarly Revelation commentay written by Dr. Tony Garland. This is considered by some dispensational scholars to be one of best two commentaries on the book of Revelation in existence…. And it is free online!

    Sheila,

    If you scroll to the bottom of the link above to the reference info you will see a section on the marraige of the lamb (4.10). This covers in depth your question concerning the church as the bride of Christ and Israel being the wife of Yaweh.

    Blessings,
    Peter

  17. Benjamin–” It is the sheep gentiles (gentile believers during the Tribulation) that Jesus invites to enter the Millennial Kingdom because of their faith. It is they that will reproduce and populate the gentile nations. Which ties into the passages which speak of children no longer dying in infancy and that they will live at least 100 years (Isa. 65:20)”

    But we will be as the angels in heaven when we’re resurrected which neither marry nor are given in marriage. So are you saying we will populate but not “procreate?

  18. Peter,

    Man am I glad you gave me the reference number! It looks as though he’s thoroughly dissected the book. Should prove really helpful.

    Thanks again!

  19. Benjamin–“- I take this passage to mean that during the Millennium, natural people will have 100 years to accept Jesus as Messiah and savior. No one will die before they reach 100, but if one has not accepted the Messiah by 100, they passed the line of no return and may even die at that point. So at the end of the Millennium there will undoubtedly be a multitude of non-believers which shall align themselves with satan when he begins his final rebellion.”

    I tend to go with Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on their commentary:

    20. The longevity of men in the first age of the world shall be enjoyed again.
    thence–from that time forward.
    infant of days–that is, an infant who shall only complete a few days; short-lived.
    filled . . . days–None shall die without attaining a full old age.
    child . . . die . . . hundred years–that is “he that dieth an hundred years old shall die a mere child” [LOWTH].
    sinner . . . hundred . . . be accursed–“The sinner that dieth at an hundred years shall be deemed accursed,” that is, his death at so early an age, which in those days the hundredth year will be regarded, just as if it were mere childhood, shall be deemed the effect of God’s special visitation in wrath [ROSENMULLER]. This passage proves that the better age to come on earth, though much superior to the present will not be a perfect state; sin and death shall have place in it (compare Rev 20:7, 8 ), but much less frequently than now.

    “‘I understand the message of the goats and sheep but what of the other verses that have us to understand otherwise? I don’t know.’”

    I meant that I never pictured the judgment until the thousand years were over but the verse says when He returns to sit on His throne, judgment will begin. “He will commence a reignin’. 🙂

  20. Sheila. Awesome posts. I will answer later on I need to head home presently. I just wanted to ask one question before I left.

    Who do you believe are the people who will still have the evil inclination during the Millennium? Just so I can have an idea of your thoughts on that aspect of the kingdom.

    Thanks Sheila. I’ll try to reply to your posts soon.

    Thanks for the link Peter.

  21. Benjamin,

    I don’t often assume things but I see I did. I’ll try to keep up better with what I’ve previously read.

    We do differ in the particulars of the millennial reign of Messiah, Jesus as I pointed out above.

  22. Benjamin–“’I don’t see where it says anything about us leaving and then coming back 7 yrs. later.’”

    “You have John 14:2-6 to deal with then. In your view of a post-trib rapture and immediate return with Christ, when does Jesus ever fullfil his promise to take us to Heaven as found in John 14?”

    I have more than one thought on it. It could be referring to all of us when we die that He’s there to receive us to Himself. Or, it could be referring to His Father’s house which is in the temple compound in Millennial Jerusalem.

    It seems to me that we could also be the souls underneath the altar of God and of the Lamb in Revelation 6:9-10.

    That’s a tough one for sure!

    Regardless, there’s no 7 year time frame in those verses that I can see.

  23. Sure Benjamin, take your time! I’ve got much to do in looking over your latest posts. Thanks!

    Benjamin–“Who do you believe are the people who will still have the evil inclination during the Millennium? Just so I can have an idea of your thoughts on that aspect of the kingdom.”

    I believe it’s the natural people that don’t have their resurrection bodies. They’ll be judged at the end of the millennium by their works is what the book of Revelation says. But then that takes away from the sacrifice of Messiah. It’s difficult because the Bible doesn’t tell us enough about that time frame. Or I missed it.
    Also, Isaiah says that the old man will live out his years. So they must live past one hundred years old, being considered children at that age in the millennium, otherwise where do the old men come from? I think they may already be old–maybe some live the entire 1000 years is what it sounds like to me.

    Part of my reasoning has to do with the fact that I believe Israel will “literally” reign over their enemies, those left of the nations that didn’t come up against them or seek to destroy them. That’s part of the reasoning for the millennial people having natural bodies even with the evil inclination still.

    Admittedly it needs fine-tuning but it’s reasonable in light of the prophesies concerning those days.

  24. I have a lot to respond to so it may require a few posts.

    Starting with post #116

    “We are not appointed to wrath but I don’t see how it can be interpreted to say we won’t have any persecution or testing of our faith at all. The Lord said “if they have hated me they will also hate you; if they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” (John 15:20) (Rev 7:13-14) Do you think it could be wishful thinking?”

    Are you saying that everyone for the last two thousand years has escaped persecution? And that this persecution is due only to the Day of the Lord? The Lord said that “all” will suffer, it was not a reference to the Great Tribulation.

    You referenced Revelation 7:13-14 as evidence that the Church will suffer persecution in the Tribulation. Looking at that passage of text and the surrounding verses, in verses 9-10, John sees a multitude of Gentiles from every nationality standing before the Throne of God. The expression “after these things” means that the salvation of these myriads of Gentiles follows chronologically the 144,000 Jews and there is a cause and effect relationship. After describing the worship of the One on the Throne (vv. 11-12), the text proceeds to identify who these Gentiles are that are found around the Throne (vv.13-14). These Gentiles are identified and as those who have “come out of the Great Tribulation.” They are saved Gentiles, for they have ‘washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.’ Since they follow chronologically the ministry of the 144,000 Jews, the implication is that they are the Gentiles who come to Messiah as a result of the preaching of the 144,000 Jews. Included are the fifth seal saints who suffered martyrdom. Because of the massive persecution that these Tribulation saints have undergone, this passage concludes with a description of the comfort they now enjoy in the presence of the God (vv. 15-17).

    My brother just called, I will need to finish this tomorrow. I loved your chain of scriptures! I will respond to it soon.

  25. Sheila, what I means was which group of people makes it into the Millennium with their natural bodies? I too believe some make it into the Millennium with natural bodies. If the Lord comes in one day of fierce judgement at the end of the tribulation (which I also believe, though you might not have known that part either as we have not gotten to it yet) and destroys the evil doers, who makes it in with natural bodies? That was more of what I was after. Is it Jews, Gentiles? Do you have a description?

    My descri;tion was that it was the believing sheep gentiles that Messiah invites into the kingdom, they go in with natural bodies, and like you, I believe that natural believers in the millennium will not die and live for all the thousand years. But if you reach 100 and do not believe, then you will die and be accursed. It sounds like you believe something similar, just wondering who you believe the natural will be?

  26. Oh and one last post before I leave for the evening. I too believe Israel will reign over her enemies as stated in scripture during the Millennial Kingdom.

    haha. Ok, I need to head out.

  27. Post 116 response resumed:

    “That day is meant to destroy unrepentant sinners and those who hate Him and His people. That only happens once. How many times can you destroy all in that group at the same time?”

    – This is where I see it as you do for the most part. There is going to be a day when the Lord comes for the second time (at the end of the seven years of tribulation) and his purpose is to rescue Israel from the nations that have besieged her and come against her to destroy her. The Lord comes and brings swift destruction on the invaders. And there is a day when He will gather the Gentiles to the Valley of Jehoshaphat and seperate the sheep from the goats and reward them appropriatly; Millennial Kingdom or Destruction.

    So there will be a swift conclusion. But the entire seven years of Great Tribulation are filled with judgements of God and His wrath since it is a ‘time of Trouble’.

    “I believe the others are judgments meant to give people space to repent, which, it appears an innumerable number of people “are” saved during the time of the tribulation but some of them still will not repent.”

    – The Day of the Lord/Great Tribulation is a time for massive repentence as well. Primarily due to the evangelism of the 144,000 Jews who are sealed.

    Joel 3:

    The first thing to note is that the first verse speaks about a multitude of days, not a single day. ‘In those days’ is a reference to the Tribulation. And during those days there will be a time ‘and in that time’ when He shall restore the Israelites to the Land since they at that time will have been driven off to Bozrah. So this time takes place during those days, known as the Day of the Lord.

    “Again, in Isaiah 63, the Lord tramples down people in His wrath but in the next sentence He is bestowing His steadfast love on His people. Same time frame, different outcome for two different groups of people.”

    – Pre-trib understands it the exact same way (although I’m sure there are nuances that each doesn’t agree with). The Isaiah 63 passage describes some of the conclusionary (not sure if thats a word) events when Jesus comes and rescues Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation, spilling the life-blood of those that came against the Israelites. So he brings destruction and he also brings blessing by way of rescue and also the Millennial Kingdom and His own self. It is after the event described in Isa 63 that the gentiles are gathered to be judged based on their treatment of His brethren, the Jews.

    “Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
    (the same language accompanies other prophets when speaking of the day of the Lord, so many I left them out)”

    Yes, the Scriptures speak of five blackouts that will occur. When the light of the Sun, Moon and Stars is suddenly blacked out. Similar to the blackout of Egypt during one of the ten plagues. Another example of such a blackout happened during the crucifixion in Matthew 27:45:

    45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
    *****

    The first blackout is actually prophesied to occur before the Great Tribulation in Joel 2:31:

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
    *****

    The next two occur during the first half of the Tribulation. The 6th Seal and the 5th Trumpet. Then during the second half of the Tribulation there are two more, the 5th Bowl judgment and then the final is during the pouring out of the 7th Bowl judgement ending the Tribulation.

    The earth also quakes at various times during the Tribulation. Sometimes to bring about destruction and other times to help Israel flee from the antichrist, etc. So during the tribulation the Lord is chastening Israel while at the same time protecting her in the process.

    “the Lord is a refuge for his people.”

    And to be clear in context, his people are national Israel.

    Dr. Browns Pre-trib call-in day is about to start. I will get to the second half of your post later on. I didn’t go into detail, so feel free to ask any questions if more is needed.

  28. Benjamin—How so? The entire Church gets resurrected or translated at the Rapture. The Church at that point is gone and complete. The Church does not include Old Testament saints or post-Church saints (Tribulation saints). They are friends of the Bridegroom. Hence why John the baptist called himself a friend of the Bridegroom and why the wise virgins are invited to the marriage feast, but they are not the bride.

    I strongly disagree with you about the Church. First of all, the First Testament saints were all “waiting for the hope of Israel” who is Messiah, Jesus. Why would they not make up part of the Church if Jews and Gentiles who have died believing are part of the Body of Christ? They (FT saints–Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses etc.) all “died believing” that Messiah would reverse the curse and be the savior of mankind. Abraham was declared righteous and worthy of salvation. Many others Paul tells us, were declared righteous because of their righteous deeds, because they believed in the God of Israel.

    The tribulation saints have “come to Him” so why do they get a lesser reward and do they not have eternal life? How can they obtain eternal life apart from Christ who is the life? “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.” “For this mortal must put on immortality and then will be brought about the saying, ‘Death is swallowed up by victory'” I say the Church is not complete without either one of them.

  29. Ooops,

    There was another statement that went before the previous post:

    Benjamin,

    Me-“And as I said earlier, a great big chunk of His Church would be M.I.A..”

  30. Benjamin,

    I forgot to put your paragraph above in quotation marks:

    “How so? The entire Church gets resurrected or translated at the Rapture. The Church at that point is gone and complete. The Church does not include Old Testament saints or post-Church saints (Tribulation saints). They are friends of the Bridegroom. Hence why John the baptist called himself a friend of the Bridegroom and why the wise virgins are invited to the marriage feast, but they are not the bride.”

  31. “First of all, the First Testament saints were all “waiting for the hope of Israel” who is Messiah, Jesus. Why would they not make up part of the Church”

    – If you make a study of what it means to be part of the Church and when the Church started, the result is that the Church started in Acts chpater 2. Anyone before that time could not be part of it since it had its beginning in Acts 2. I can go into detail on this if needed.

    Yes everyone is saved through Messiah. What would have happened 2000 years ago if Israel had received Jesus as Messiah? There would not have been the Church age. No Church.

    You also have John the baptist who tells us that he is not part of the Church, the Bride, even though he was one of the last OT prophets.

    After Acts 2, anyone who believes is now part of the Bride, both Jew and Gentile, they become the one new man (which was something new). Abraham and the OT saints are saved by Jesus thourgh faith, but they were not part of the “Church”. The Church did not exist then.

    “The tribulation saints have “come to Him” so why do they get a lesser reward and do they not have eternal life? How can they obtain eternal life apart from Christ who is the life?”

    Who says they get a lesser reward? They actually receive crowns for being martyrd, and another crown goes to those who survive to the end. They are rewarded greatly with special blessings. To no lesser extent are they rewarded, they are invited to reign with Christ in the Millennium. Afterall, they are saints.

    Also they do not atain eternal life apart from Christ. Christ gives them eternal life based on their faith in Him. He is the only way, from Creation to Revelation.

  32. Benjamin–“You also have John the baptist who tells us that he is not part of the Church, the Bride, even though he was one of the last OT prophets.”

    John the Baptist said he was not the “groom” but was a friend of the groom. “The one who has the bride is the bridegroom.”

    Jhn 3:28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’

    Jhn 3:29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

    Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.” [fn]

    Jhn 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

    I don’t see where he said he wasn’t part of the Church.

  33. So, you’re also a Dispensationalist? I’m not finding any Bible verses to support your way of breaking things down into different categories of people.

    What of the entire congregation of Israelites who died believing, where are the verses that exclude them from being resurrected into the Body of Messiah? I don’t follow the reasoning behind it. I don’t see any Scripture to support it.

  34. Benjamin–“Who says they get a lesser reward? They actually receive crowns for being martyrd, and another crown goes to those who survive to the end. They are rewarded greatly with special blessings. To no lesser extent are they rewarded, they are invited to reign with Christ in the Millennium. Afterall, they are saints.”

    I thought from your theory that they would’ve missed the “first resurrection.” According to Rev. 20 they’re right there with us. But in the pre-trib theory the first resurrection would have come and gone 7 years before Rev. 20. Do you see what I’m getting at?

  35. Great thoughts Sheila,

    “I don’t see where he said he wasn’t part of the Church.”

    – You quoted it. John 3:29

    “Jhn 3:29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.”

    John clearly said “The one who has the bride is the bridegroom” which the bride is the Church.

    “The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him”, if John was a member of the bride wouldn’t he have said, “The ‘bride’ of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him…” But he did not, he called himself the friend of the bridegroom. The ‘friend’ does not get married to the bridegroom. So I’m not seeing how this passage can be denied.

    Also, OT saints are considered the wife of YHVH, while the Church is the ‘bride’ of Christ. I can get into this as well, for now though, Israel was married to God, committed adultery and were issued divorce papers. The divorce was not to be permanent though, they would be restored to their marriage. The Church however has not yet been married, and indeed we are described as ‘virgins’ to be presented to Christ. So the contrast is strong when you see OT Israel as an adulterous wife (not virgins) which will be restored, and the Church as a virgin bride (not yet wife).

    “What of the entire congregation of Israelites who died believing, where are the verses that exclude them from being resurrected into the Body of Messiah?”

    They resurrect at the end of the Great Tribulation as prophesied in Daniel 12:1-2. That is the verse that makes the distinction.

    1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    In the context of Daniel 12:2, Daniel is speaking of events after the Tribulation and , therefore, this is the time that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected.

    “I thought from your theory that they would’ve missed the “first resurrection.” According to Rev. 20 they’re right there with us. But in the pre-trib theory the first resurrection would have come and gone 7 years before Rev. 20. Do you see what I’m getting at?”

    They do not miss the first resurrection. The First Resurrection comes in stages. It is not a one-time event. According to verse 5 of Revelation 20, the resurrection of the Tribulation saints completes the first resurrection, and it is separated from the completion of the second resurrection by one thousand years. The point of verse 6 is that the first resurrection involves believers only (all saints), that is why it is blessed and holy to be a participant in the first resurrection.

    Howver, the first resurrection comes in stages, in an orderly progression, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-23:

    20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming.

    Paul states that the righteous will be resurrected ‘each in his own order’ (v.23) The word translated ‘order’ is a military term used for a sequence of troops of soldiers marching in a procession or in battle. There is one troop division followed by another, and so on. The point is that all the righteous will not be resurrection at the same time, but rather in a sequential order. The first resurrection includes the following five stages: The first was the resurrection of Jesus (v.23), He is the firstfruits of the first resurrection; the second is the resurrection of the Church saints at the rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:16) prior to the Great Tribulation, the third will be the resurrection of of the Two Witnesses in the middle of the Tribulation; fourth will come the Old Testament saints (Is. 26:19; Dan. 12:2) during the seventy-five day interval after the Tribulation; and fifth, the Tribulation saints (Rev. 20:4). The resurrection of the Tribulation saints completes the first resurrection.

    “So, you’re also a Dispensationalist?”

    – I am.

    Thanks Sheila, I still have a post up above that I will reply too later on.

    Heading to work, hope you have a wonderful day.

  36. Benjamin—“- You quoted it. John 3:29

    “’Jhn 3:29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.’”

    “John clearly said “The one who has the bride is the bridegroom” which the bride is the Church.

    “’The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him’”, if John was a member of the bride wouldn’t he have said, “The ‘bride’ of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him…” But he did not, he called himself the friend of the bridegroom. The ‘friend’ does not get married to the bridegroom. So I’m not seeing how this passage can be denied.”

    So, let me see if I’m understanding you correctly. There are “two” brides. One is the bride of the Father, YHWH, and one is the bride of the Son, YHWH? Correct me if I’m wrong.

    Then, by your thinking, John would have been of the FT bride of YHWH, the Father–no? Hasn’t the Father handed everything over to the Son? The Son inherited all things from the Father. He “inherited” the entire nation of Israel.

    Where are the Scripture verses to show us the wedding of Israel and the Father in the Millennial Kingdom? I’m not getting it am I?

    And John would not have been privy, at that time, to the mystery of the Church, which now includes both Jew and Gentile, which you continually separate out, but at that time, Jesus had come for only His people, His heritage, His bride—Israel. Not until “the children were fed” did the Gospel go to the Gentiles by way of Paul. Jesus ministry was not to the Gentiles at all. There were 2 instances, I think, of Him dealing with Gentiles.

    So, in fact, John was part of the First Testament Congregation of saints and of the bride.

  37. Benjamin—“They resurrect at the end of the Great Tribulation as prophesied in Daniel 12:1-2. That is the verse that makes the distinction.”

    EXACTLY!! Now you see the post-trib position clearly! 🙂

  38. “Benjamin—”They resurrect at the end of the Great Tribulation as prophesied in Daniel 12:1-2. That is the verse that makes the distinction.”

    EXACTLY!! Now you see the post-trib position clearly!”

    🙂 I said resurrection, not rapture. The rapture only happens for the Church prior to the Trib.

    “So, let me see if I’m understanding you correctly. There are “two” brides. One is the bride of the Father, YHWH, and one is the bride of the Son, YHWH? Correct me if I’m wrong.”

    Your almost there. One is the ‘wife’ of the Father and the other is the ‘bride’ (not yet married) of the Son. The former is not a virgin while the latter is a virgin.

    “Where are the Scripture verses to show us the wedding of Israel and the Father in the Millennial Kingdom? I’m not getting it am I?”

    Jeremiah 3:6-10 is the Divorce passage for the southern Kingdom of Judah and the book of Hosea is the Bill of divocement for the northern kingdom of Israel.

    But the prophets also spoke of a coming day when Israel will again become the restored wife of Jehovah. This will require a new marriage contract, which is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    What is often known as the New Covenant is in many respects a new marriage contract that God will make with the two houses of Israel and Judah. With this new contract, Israel will again be restored to the place of blessing (vv.33-34).

    This marriage on the basis of a new contract is also described in Ezekiel 16:60-63:

    60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

    61 Then shalt thou remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder sisters and thy younger; and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

    62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am Jehovah;

    63 that thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more, because of thy shame, when I have forgiven thee all that thou hast done, saith the Lord Jehovah.

    This everlasting convenant is the same as the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    The restoration of Israel as Jehovah’s wife is also described in Isaiah 54:1-8:

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.

    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.

    3 For thou shalt spread abroad on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

    4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more.

    5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    6 For Jehovah hath called thee as a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even a wife of youth, when she is cast off, saith thy God.

    7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

    8 In overflowing wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting lovingkindness will I have mercy on thee, saith Jehovah thy Redeemer.

    Hosea who had much to say about the adulteries of Israel, also spoke of Israel’s reunion with her husband. He wrote in 2:14-23:

    14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

    15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope; and she shall make answer there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

    16 And it shall be at that day, saith Jehovah, that thou shalt call me Ishi, and shalt call me no more Baali.

    17 For I will take away the names of the Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned by their name.

    18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the birds of the heavens, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the land, and will make them to lie down safely.

    19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

    20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness; and thou shalt know Jehovah.

    21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will answer, saith Jehovah, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth;

    22 and the earth shall answer the grain, and the new wine, and the oil; and they shall answer Jezreel.

    23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    Israel was the wife of Jehovah, a wife that God married but who committed adultery. Eventually, a seperation took place, followed by a divorcement, and today Israel is in her period of punishment. However, there will yet come the time when Israel will be remarried, at her national regeneration, and be reunited to her God with all of her blessings restored.

  39. Benjamin,

    ME—“I thought from your theory that they would’ve missed the “first resurrection.” According to Rev. 20 they’re right there with us. But in the pre-trib theory the first resurrection would have come and gone 7 years before Rev. 20. Do you see what I’m getting at?”

    YOU–“They do not miss the first resurrection. The First Resurrection comes in stages. It is not a one-time event. According to verse 5 of Revelation 20, the resurrection of the Tribulation saints completes the first resurrection, and it is separated from the completion of the second resurrection by one thousand years. The point of verse 6 is that the first resurrection involves believers only (all saints), that is why it is blessed and holy to be a participant in the first resurrection.”

    That is most definitely reading into the text something that’s not even remotely hinted at! You’re saying then that the 2nd resurrection is actually the 6th! And that the “First Resurrection” is, in fact, 5 resurrections long! That’s really, really a manufactured, not to mention, poorly constructed misreading of Scripture. Sorry. But that’s a fact. I still love you though! 😀

  40. Riddle me this: (teasing)

    (assuming the ‘post-trib’ position)

    Is Jesus the first fruits of the First Resurrection? Is He already resurrected? Do the Two Witnesses get resurrected? and if so, even in the post-trib view, do they get ressurected before the saints? If so, wouldn’t that mean that the saints come after and the Second coming?
    If so, are these not stages of blessed resurrection?

  41. quick question–By resurrection do you mean “raptured” or no?

    I’ll pick it up after dinner.

  42. Purely resurrection. Not referring to rapture.

    “That is most definitely reading into the text something that’s not even remotely hinted at!… That’s really, really a manufactured, not to mention, poorly constructed misreading of Scripture. Sorry. But that’s a fact.”

    But wow, not only did I get slapped with a glove, but there was a brick in it. *cry*

    Haha, no I don’t mind 🙂 I’m thick skinned.

  43. Sorry, I’d never heard anything even resembling what you wrote. Was flabbergasted, but I’m over it now. Sorry, I get a bit spirited in discussions at times. It’s certainly something new to talk over.

    I should be more sensitive because I, myself, am not thick skinned at all. Really, I did overstate it, don’t feel bad. K?

  44. Benjamin,

    Really though, are we going to count the ones the Lord raised from the dead–the ones whose graves opened upon His death–where do we stop? There were other resurrections but they don’t count as part of the “first resurrection” which I suppose is referring to an enumerable number of people who make up the Body of Christ resurrected and caught away altogether at the same time. I see the rapture in the first resurrection and the throne judgment in the second resurrection.

  45. (I didn’t take it personally, I was trying to lighten the conversation 🙂 )

    Ok, maybe I should have clarified further. I mean resurrected into glorified bodies. Jesus is resurrected in His glorified body and so are the Two Witnesses since everyone will see them ascend into heaven at the middle of the Tribulation. And in order to ascend into heaven in bodies they must be glorified since corruptible must put on incorruptible in order to enter heaven.

    Most of the people in the OT and NT that were raised from the dead, died again. So that was not part of the ‘First Resurrection’.

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