What’s my view on the scholarship in the Hermenia commentaries? What is the meaning of “lawlessness” in the New Testament? How did the man in Mark 9:39 drive out demons in Jesus’ name if he had only given authority to do so to his 12 disciples? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As I reflect on the chaos and confusion of the world around us, all the more is it imperative for us to know who we believe, to know what we believe, and to know why we believe.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We can divide over non-essential doctrines. It’s much more important that we work together as one majoring on the majors.
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That was perfect Sheila. Thank you for clarifying.
From that one passage we cannot determine the particular timing (1 Cor 15:51-52) though we might both make appeals to the ‘last trump’. We both agree that the mystery is the translation/rapture event. But place the timing of that event in different places.
I’m not antagonistic towards having common beliefs with the pre-trib theory. I see that we do overlap on some things. It’s a matter of when it takes place and when the book of Revelation was written and for what purpose. You two see the outline as being after the Church is removed and I don’t see it that way.
Peter–
“As far as the destruction of Jerusalem goes, there was no need for John to predict that because Jesus had warned about it in Luk 21. In my view there is no clear prediction or warning concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in the entire book of Revelation. Jesus was very clear in Luk 21 concerning what was going to happen.”
I believe that’s where a lot of people (scholars included) go wrong thinking that the Lord’s short discourse was all that needed to be said. John wasn’t “predicting” the destruction of Jerusalem, John was merely writing down the words given to him by the angel Yeshua (Jesus) sent with the warning and the much more elaborate prediction of the catastrophic ruin that was coming “before” the generation of John’s day would pass away.
Prophesy does not follow the pattern of casual remarks about impending and utter destruction at all. We’re talking about complete ruin, starvation, mother’s killing and eating their own children, and that’s before the Romans even breached the walls! The prophets would bemoan and conjole and cry to the Israelites that judgment was coming!! “Repent; turn to the LORD, judgment is coming–do what the Lord tells you–get right with God because it’s coming and it won’t be lightly!” ESV – Jer 23:29 – “Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?”
The Lord warns His people and gives them space to repent and turn back to Him. Rarely is judgment carried out immediately and when the prophecy involves Jerusalem, they’re always warned in advance. NKJV – Eze 18:30 – 32 – Eze 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. [fn] Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
“For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”
I’ve capitalized some sentences in the following excerpt from a site I happened across this morning. It’s interesting to note the words of Eusebius as seeming to describe John’s written warning to the churches:
Eusebius (325)”But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. ” (History of the Church 3:5:3)
“The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, “HAVING BEEN COMMANDED BY A DIVINE REVELATION, GIVEN TO MEN OF APPROVED PIETY THERE BEFORE THE WAR’, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
“After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel and which is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion’s preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there.” (Panarion 30:2)
“FOR WHEN THE CITY WAS ABOUT TO BE CAPTURED AND SACKED BY THE ROMANS, ALL THE DISCIPLES WERE WARNED BEFOREHAND BY AN ANGEL TO REMOVE FROM THE CITY, DOOMED AS IT WAS TO UTTER DESTRUCTION. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).
“Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis– called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella” (Haer 29:7).
“For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)… “[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea … and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa” (Haer 30:18).
While it may be a preterist view, it seems to me that when read carefully, it justifies the early date of the Revelation that I’ve always thought was the case. I believe the Revelation was also meant to tell us that it was our Lord, our Messiah who was bringing the judgment in 70AD by way of the Romans. That’s the pattern in all prophesy. God uses the nations at His command in order to bring about His righteous judgment after sending prophets to plead with His people. So why wouldn’t He send someone to warn His flock of those things “which must shortly come to pass”? I say He did–He sent His angel to give the word to John and from there it went out from Asia to Judea and Jerusalem, being read in all the churches and the early Church members were able to flee and save their lives.
The admonition to the churches was for them to persevere unto death and they would receive a crown of victory for overcoming the horrendous persecutions soon to come. They would be rewarded for not denying the Lord in order to save themselves from the persecution that followed. We can’t begin to imagine the abject fear they had to overcome to remain true to their faith! They were beheaded, crucified, made to wear animal skins and then mauled by beasts; they were soaked in oil and lit on fire in Nero’s courtyard. How utterly disgusting a beast he was! He was a dead-ringer for a type of the final antichrist yet to come.
Whoa, sorry. I forgot to respond to your question.
“Do you believe the rapture happens simultaneously with the second coming? I do.”
No, I see at least 7 years or more between the rapture and the second coming.
I forgot the website link.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html
Don’t hold me hostage to anything else on there other than what I spied out this morning. I don’t know much of what is there.
Thanks Benjamin. That’s where Scripture needs to answer for us. One of us has it wrong and, although I’m not dogmatic about it, I don’t think it’s me. :O
I’m working on answering some more of the last posts.
One thing though–Peter says, “Not saying that the Church is exempt from persecution. Just that the Church is exempt from the wrath of God and the tribulation is the wrath of God.”
I’m going to concede the fact that the saints are being persecuted up until the wrath of God is poured out. So my analogy of the Israelites in Egypt wouldn’t work. Although, I think I’ve heard it somewhere or read something somewhere that says the children of Israel were made to suffer the first of the plagues and were then spared some of the last, and of course from the Passover of death. Don’t know where I saw it. Say, maybe it was the Talmud. That could very well be.
Anyway, I don’t see the entire 7 years as the wrath of God especially since the first three and a half are supposedly years of peace–No? I believe the Lord’s wrath comes all at once and then those who hate the Lord and who hate those who are His are dust under our feet. I think that doesn’t happen until Israel recognizes who the Messiah is! At the last trump of the “Days of Repentance.” Yom Kippur.
I’ve been negligent of putting the Scripture verses together with my theoretical statements so I’ll work on doing that. As if you could read my mind… I still have more to comment on too.
And I need to remember to “refresh” the page often.
There is a covenant signed with Israel and the antichrist for seven years of peace, although it get broken after three-and-a-half. So in that regard there is three and a half years of peace between Isael and the nations/antichrist. But God’s wrath is being poured out during that time.
Here is a diagram which may help frame the first three-and-a-half years of the tribulation.
http://www.ltradio.org/charts/End%20Time%20Charts%20Series/Chart%2002%20-%20The%20First%20Half%20of%20the%20Great%20Tribulation.gif
This diagram is “only” of the first half of the tribulation.
Benjamin,
Who do you think the two witnesses are? The ones who come back to life and rise to heaven? (Rev 11:3-12)
Sheila,
I will agree that the book of Revelation has application for all Christians throughout the centuries that are suffering persecution, including the 1st century church.
However, I do not see any language in the book concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. Additionally, the majority of the 7 letters to the 7 churches have very little to do with persecution.
I just to not see anything in the historical quotes you give above to justify the book of Revelation being written prior to 70 AD. The quotes from the early church fathers concerning when John wrote the book are a much more convincing. We have no good reason to doubt their testimony.
I am convinced that the 7 churches were chosen by Jesus to be representative of all of church history. Even if one does not hold to the prophetic view concerning the periods of church history, they in some way represent church history. The messages in the letters go all the way to the coming of the Lord for the church.
The outline of the book is given in Rev 1:19:
Rev 1:19 Therefore, write down what you have seen, what is, and what is going to happen after this.
Rev 4:1 After these things I saw a door standing open in heaven. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”
I believe that this verse clearly indicates the beginning of the 3rd stage of the book. The events from the book of Revelation 4 until the end are all future (after the history of the church is complete).
There are many hints in the rest of the book of Revelation that the church is not there.
If we did not have the book of Revelation, the case for the pre trib rapture would not be nearly as strong. However, when we compare this book with Daniel, Mat 24, Luk 21, 2 Thess 2, ect… a powerful case can be made.
I clearly a futurist when it comes to the book of Revelation. It had application for everyone throughout the history of the church, but Rev 4-22 are describing events immediately preceding the 2nd coming (7+? years), the millennium, and the eternal state.
As far as your comment on when the wrath begins… I believe that the removal of the restraining force is part of the manifestation of God’s wrath during that period. The seals are serious judgments on the earth…
1 Thess 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
This destruction is going to happen very early in this period when peace is taken away (Rev 6:4). This will be followed by famine and plagues that seem to kill a large percentage of the earth. It only gets worse from there if you take it literally.
There are some scholars that see the seals, trumpets, and bowls running in parallel. Many see them as sequential. I would not be dogmatic about that either way, but I do not believe the temporary “peace” will last long.
Blessings,
Peter
@Sheila and @Benjamin,
There is an interesting case made concerning the “falling away” in 2 Thess 2:3. I had never heard this before until recently, but add this to the list of possibilities.
http://www.theologicalstudies.org/files/resources/Cuellar-rescued_from_wrath.pdf
2Thess2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
This research paper argues that the “falling away” that Paul was referring to could be the “covanent” that is confirmed by the coming world leader (Dan 9:27).
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
Isa 28:15 Because you said: ‘We have entered into a covenant with death, and we have an agreement with Sheol, so when the overwhelming scourge makes its choice, it cannot reach us, since we have made lies our refuge and have concealed ourselves inside falsehood’
John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
The idea concerning the “falling away” in that paper kind of fits the context considering Paul mentions the coming world leader in the next verse (2Thess 2:4) who will come into the temple declaring He is God.
Add this theory to the list of theories concerning the “falling away” or “departure” of 2 Thess 2:3.
I do not believe that the “rebellion” necessarily refers to a “falling away” of the church. The church was in rough shape throughout much of its history.
Blessings,
Peter
I can’t dogmatically say who the two witnesses will be. There are a lot of views out there. Some say that it will be Elijah and Enoch, or Elijah and Moses, etc.
Likely it will be two future Jewish prophets whom God will raise up during the time of the great tribulation since the arguement can be made that because Elijah has already been translated and taken on immortality, that he cannot die if one of the prophets was him.
Elijah:
Another event clearly predicted to occur before the Tribulation is the return of Elijah in Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Verse five pinpoints the return of Elijah as comming before the Day of the Lord, namely before the Tribulation. Vs. 6 goes on to describe the nature of Elijah’s ministry when he returns, that of a Jewish family reunion program. The Jewish family unit, strong for so many centuries has in these last days begun to break down and according to the prophetic word, will continue to break down. The ministry of Elijah is to restore this unity in preparation for the Second Coming of the Messiah.
So Elijah will be here, but he may not be one of the prophets. I can’t say dogmatically.
Peter I just read that paper. I will need to contact a pastor friend of mine named Carlos Cuellar and find out if that was written by him. Now I’m very curious.
Great article with lots of things to think about and study. Thanks!
Confirmed. I just called the secretary of the Church ( my Mom =P ) Calos is Associate Pastor at, “Cornerstone Fellowship Bible Church” and she was unsure but she handed the phone to Carlos and he was taken back that I had just read his paper online, haha.
Peter–
“I just to not see anything in the historical quotes you give above to justify the book of Revelation being written prior to 70 AD. The quotes from the early church fathers concerning when John wrote the book are a much more convincing. We have no good reason to doubt their testimony.”
I’ll concede that point, that the quotes don’t necessarily justify an early date, although they could be understood and interpreted that way and I’ve not seen the evidence, or the testimony you say exists for the late date, unless I missed something in your posts. If so, if you could point me to the references I’ll gladly look into it. I hope you know I was just kidding about it being me who is right. It’s not a “major” area of doctrine in my mind so I truly am not as dogmatic about it as I am other majors, although I do have some very definite thoughts on prophesy. Besides it’s interesting to discuss it with others who hold different views.
Concerning John and the testimony of Clement of Alexander, Eusebius and the reign of Domitian, do we have any writings telling us about how old John would have been when the Lord called him to His side as an Apostle?
I’m just wondering if John could have written the book of the Revelation over a period of many years such as Isaiah and a couple other prophets did? I should have read all the Church fathers writings long before now–I sure could use that knowledge now.
You say there are some scholars that go with an earlier date for the book but what do they base it on I wonder? I don’t know enough yet so I’m just going to let that part of it go for now.
Peter and Benjamin,
Looking at the verses in 2 Thess.2, it appears very clear that “that day” won’t come “until” the falling away comes and “until” the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed. (the one devoted to destruction–antichrist) The man of sin will “exalt himself above all that is called God or is worshipped…”
So, if the antichrist is revealed three and a half years after the peace treaty is signed, as opposed to the very end of the tribulation, wouldn’t the rapture be better revised for mid. trib.? Although I don’t think we know exactly who antichrist is until he steps up to be worshipped as God, then we’ll know. Until then he could be just another ruler of any nation aligned against Israel.
I believe the following verses blow the pre-trib rapture right out of the water:
2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, [fn]
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness [fn] is revealed, the son of destruction, [fn]
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
Looking at the verses in 2 Thess.2, it appears very clear that “that day” won’t come “until” the falling away comes and “until” the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed. (the one devoted to destruction–antichrist) The man of sin will “exalt himself above all that is called God or is worshipped…” You’ll notice Paul uses “the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ” as interchangeable with the “day of the Lord.” There’s no distinction between the two.
So, supposing the antichrist is revealed three and a half years after the peace treaty is signed, as opposed to the very end of the tribulation, wouldn’t the rapture be better revised for mid. trib.? Although I don’t think we know exactly who antichrist is until he steps up to be worshipped as God, then we’ll know. Until then he could be just another ruler of any nation aligned against Israel.
I am behind in the discussion and I’ll try to get a move on here shortly! 🙂
p.s.–I’ve not gotten to the article yet. Sorry.
Oops, I copied and pasted some paragraphs twice–oh well.
The paper Peter linked above goes into detail concerning 2 Thessalonians 2. I believe he delves into that passage starting around page 15, but the whole paper should be reviewed.
This will sound crazy to you at first but 2 Thessalonians is a strong passage against a mid/post trib rapture which the paper lays out in detail.
I do find it interesting when two or more competing views think the same passage blows the others out of the water. Just something I was thinking about when I read your comment.
Benjamin and Peter,
I still haven’t done my homework (read the article) partly because I don’t want to be swayed by anything other than Scripture. After all the author and I are both reading the same Book and coming to two different conclusions (I assume). Also because I’m pressed for time to read it carefully. I may have some time this weekend but I probably still won’t want to muddy the water for myself.
I wanted to ask a quick question (maybe a couple) that ties in with 2 Thes. 2 and also Rom. 11:25. Do you see the rapture as taking place “immediately” upon the full number of the “nations” (gentiles) coming in? And this number would not include the Jews–is that right? At this present time the Body of Messiah is made up of Jew and Gentile so what of the Jewish believers? I imagine they’re raptured too. It would seem then that the Church (the Body of Messiah) is divided, because half is in heaven and the rest is still future. You’ll have to elaborate on that please.
If that’s the case, we have to deal with that day “when He comes to be glorified in His saints” as being divided by seven years, is how it seems, and I don’t believe that’s true. And that would make two raptures wouldn’t it? One before the tribulation and another after the tribulation. Because there are people being converted to the Gospel when the tribulation starts so what is their status in the millennium? I’m just trying to rationally work out the pre-trib theory.
We still need to come to terms with First Testament prophesies of “that day.” “That day” being the day of vengeance spoken of by the prophets, including John and Messiah.
Also, Peter, I saw where you said you don’t see judgment of Jerusalem anywhere in the book of the Revelation, is that correct? Do you mean there is absolutely no language of judgment for Jerusalem at all in the book? I’ll have to strongly disagree with you there and I’ll bring the reasons and the Scripture as to why I believe otherwise. That statement needs to be worked out or I won’t be able to see the pre-trib rapture you present as reasonable.
I understand the language of the prophets, including the Lord, as replete with language peculiar to that genre, just as the language of the Psalms is different than that of the historic writings. Although they also have prophecies contained within them. The language is typical of the style of that specific category.
Is there anything in particular that you’d like an answer to or am I free to move on from here?
Thanks for hanging in here with me!
I’m sure Peter is with me in being glad to reply to your questions. Which one of us will hopefully get to shortly. First I wanted to address your first concern.
“I still haven’t done my homework (read the article) partly because I don’t want to be swayed by anything other than Scripture.”
I understand your concern and I too affirm and join you in your stance of relying only on Scripture. If you read the article, you will find that it only uses Scripture. As I believe I in my above arguements on this topic have only relied on Scripture. I have not stated anything ‘out of the blue’ and have given chapter and verse, as you have. So if it eases your mind, the article expounds only on scripture.
Peter or I will hopefully post soon to look at the questions you asked.
Thanks Benjamin!
I’ve never heard anything ‘out of the blue” from you and didn’t mean to imply anything like that. It’s the Scripture in my own mind that I don’t afford to lose track of my thoughts. I haven’t given enough verses to go with statements I’ve made but I’ll see to that in future posts.
Oh dear…What in the world?
What I meant to say was something like: It’s the Scripture in my own mind that I don’t [want to confuse]. And [Right now I can’t] afford to lose track of my thoughts.
🙂
“Do you see the rapture as taking place “immediately” upon the full number of the “nations” (gentiles) coming in?”
God has a set number of Gentiles that He has set to come into the place of blessing, the Olive Tree of verses 16-24 of Romans 11. After the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, after that set number is reached, then all Israel will be saved. According to Acts 15:14, one of the purposes of the Church Age is to call out from among the Gentiles a people for His name. This calling out from among the Gentiles will continue until the fullness, that set number of Gentiles, is reached. At that time, the Church will be complete and will be removed at the Rapture. Then God will deal with Israel as a nation again, rather than just with Jewish individuals. This national dealing will lead to all Israel being saved (v. 26a).
***
You asked for clarification: “And this number would not include the Jews–is that right?”
Unbelieving Jews, correct.
“At this present time the Body of Messiah is made up of Jew and Gentile so what of the Jewish believers? I imagine they’re raptured too.”
Correct. Both ‘believing’ Jews and Gentiles will be raptured when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and the church is removed as the church is made up as you say of both Jews and Gentiles.
“It would seem then that the Church (the Body of Messiah) is divided, because half is in heaven and the rest is still future.”
That is not the case since both Jews and Gentiles who put their faith in Jesus will be raptured together since all who have faith in Jesus are his bride and will be together with Him. So there is no division in the body.
***
“And that would make two raptures wouldn’t it? One before the tribulation and another after the tribulation.”
There is only one rapture/catching up, to deliver the church from the great tribulation.
“Because there are people being converted to the Gospel when the tribulation starts so what is their status in the millennium?”
Those tribulation saints who survive the great tribulation will enter into the Millenium. Many, probably the majority will have been killed by the antichrist and they will be ressurected after the return of the Messiah and reign with him during the Millenium, and their resurrection will complete the ‘first resurrection’ according to Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So the Tribulation Saints will enter the Millenium and reign with Christ, but they will not be caught up to the air.
***
“We still need to come to terms with First Testament prophesies of “that day.” “That day” being the day of vengeance spoken of by the prophets, including John and Messiah.”
We do. And I’d be glad to look at any passages you’d like to.
I’ll re-read your post to make sure I touched on each issue (except for the ones addressed to Peter). Thanks Sheila.
Your brother in Christ,
-Benjamin
“Oh dear…What in the world?”
Strangely enough I didnt even notice the structure of that sentence but understood it without thinking about what you meant. haha. I do that often myself.
Just to take a quick look at the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage: (quoted from the ESV)
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
– Paul opens chapter 2 by introducing his subject, the rapture. This verse says nothing about the timing, ie pre-mid-post. Paul is bringing attention to the event when we will be gathered together to Christ.
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
– Verse 2 introduces why he brings up the rapture. The Thessalonians had been shaken and troubled concerning false teachers which had proclaimed that the Day of the Lord had come and was happening now. So now we have to ask ourselves why the Thessalonians would be disturbed and shaken that the Day of the Lord had come. If Paul had taught them about a Post-Trib rapture (or Mid-Trib) then you would think the Thessalonians would be Joyful in expectency of being gathered together to Christ in just a couple years, three and ahalf to seven years. I would be excited if I knew he was coming in the next few years, not shaken or troubled.
You would be shaken or troubled if an apostle had told you Jesus was going to gather us to him before the day of the Lord arrived (pre-trib) but were being told by false teachers that the day of the Lord was at hand. They were shaken because they ‘had not been gathered’, Paul was writing to comfort them that the Day had not come and that is why they had not been gathered yet.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
– Now Paul tells the Thessalonians how they can know that the Day of the Lord had not arrived yet. He tells of two events which much happen in order to know the Day of the Lord was at hand. The rebellion, and the revealing of the man of sin. He comforts them with these two events which must happen, but at that time had not happened, so they could take comfort knowing they did not miss the rapture (gathering together to Him).
4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
– Paul goes on to describe the nature of the man of sin and things that he will do during his time in power.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
– Verse 5 makes it clear that Paul had taught them these things before, when He was with them in person. He is reminding them of these truths so that they are not mislead and shaken by false teachings that the rapture had happened and that the day of the Lord is now here.
So the major thing we have to determine is “Why were the Thessalonians shaken?”
If Paul had taught them a post/mid-trib rapture, then they would not be shaken that they had missed the ‘gathering together to Christ’ event, or that the Day of the Lord was at hand because in just a short while they would be with Jesus as they would have been taught if that was the case.
They were shaken because Paul had taught them a pre-trib rapture and if the Day of the Lord was at hand, that would mean they missed it. That would be very disturbing. That would raise all sorts of concerns and questions.
Thus ends my quick look at this passage.
Thanks for that Benjamin.
I think what Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians is what he explained to them in 1 Thess.. I’m working on a reply in answer to it, hopefully before midnight… 🙂
A quick question comes to mind, though, after reading your explanation. Do you believe that the man of sin spoken of is the antichrist yet future?
If so, then you must think he’s revealed at the beginning of the seven years? Is that right?
If we quickly look a little further down the chapter we read about the man of sin being restrained in Paul’s day until (someone=Michael? or something=?) is taken out of the way. Then he says antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the one devoted to destruction will be revealed.
2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,
The second half of 2 Th 2:8 says, “whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.”
Clearly the parousia of the Lord will not occur “until” the lawless one is revealed. I believe he’s not fully revealed until the end of the tribulation. When the Lord returns He will slay the man, the antichrist, with the word of God coming from the breath of His mouth.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
That is the summation of quite a few verses and images concerning the coming of the Lord and/or the Day of the Lord.
Good morning Sheila,
“Do you believe that the man of sin spoken of is the antichrist yet future?”
– I do. He is yet future to make his appearance and come onto the scene.
“If so, then you must think he’s revealed at the beginning of the seven years? Is that right?”
Correct, or just before.
Who is the restrainer? (I’m not exactly sure)
There are many theories and speculations out there as to the identity of the restrainer as you expressed well with “someone=Michael? or something=?”. The one I primarily heard being expressed was that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit. There are many facets to consider when trying to identify it one way or the other.
There is another understanding which makes a lot of sense as expressed by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum:
***
(excerpt from Messianic Bible Study of 2 Thes 2:1-12)
“Let’s now consider Paul’s second main point in verses 5-7. These verses are somewhat parenthetical. In verse 5, Paul reminds his readers of things he had taught them while he was still with them. The key thing he had taught them in verse 6 was the fact that the takeover of the Jewish Temple and the self-declaration of deity will be restrained; therefore, until the restrainer is removed, the events of verse 4 cannot occur. What will restrain the Antichrist from gaining full political and religious control will be three of the ten kings of the first half of the Tribulation and the governments they represent. It is only when the last of these three kings has been killed, leading to complete submission by the remaining seven kings, that the Antichrist will be free to take over full global dictatorship and to carry out the events of verse 4. Consequently, the last restrainer of the Antichrist will be the last of the three kings and the government he represents. In verse 7, Paul reminds his readers that the mystery of lawlessness is already working and is even then being restrained. The Holy Spirit is never described as restraining. The task of restraining evil was given to human government under the Noahic Covenant in Genesis 9:1-17 and this basic doctrinal truth was reiterated by Paul in Romans 13:1-7. On one hand, human government is even now restraining lawlessness. On the other hand, the government of the last of the three kings will restrain the Antichrist, the lawless one, until the middle of the Tribulation.
Paul’s third point is found in verses 8-12. According to verse 8a, the Abomination of Desolation (see v. 4) will serve as the second revelation of the Antichrist. While the first revelation will be to believers before the Tribulation, the second revelation will be to Israel in the middle of the Tribulation. By the very act of the Abomination of Desolation, the Antichrist will be revealed as truly being the lawless one, and then Israel can realize with whom they have made their seven-year covenant. The act of the Abomination of Desolation is clearly stated by Jesus to be a sign to Israel in Matt 24:15-22. Paul then proceeds to give further facts regarding the Antichrist. He will ultimately be destroyed by the Second Coming of the Messiah in verse 8b. In verse 9, the Antichrist is the one who will be totally energized by Satan and will be able to do miracles for the purpose of world-wide deception. In verse 10, he will call all men to worship him. In verses 11-12, the ones who will be deceived by him and his counterfeit signs are those who have already rejected the gospel of Yeshua the Messiah.”
***
“I believe he’s not fully revealed until the end of the tribulation.”
– I do not see that as being taught, that the antichrist will not be fully revealed until the end and then almost instantly destroyed. If thats the case then the prophecies of Revelation are almost useless to anyone here, especially national Israel who Jesus insrtucts to flee to the hills once they see the Abomination of Desolation. I see scripture teaching that he will be revealed, and then seven years later being destroyed at the second coming when Christ comes to rescue Israel from the antichrist and the nations that have come against her.
Just to clarify. The above post was not to state ‘my’ position as I am right now unsure of the identity. The three kings idea makes a lot of sense. The Holy Spirit could be possible though I have questions about that view. And I recently read a pretty interesting article about Michael the ArchAngel which made some great points as well.
Benjamin,
I’ve just noticed your recent posts so I’ll post what I have and then backtrack.
Benjamin,
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Paul’s telling the Thessalonians that they should maintain their faith through the afflictions and tribulation that was appointed to them and that they knew was coming and so it did. Why would the Church in the end times expect to be spared their test of faith, (1 Pe 1:7) by being removed from any trials, persecutions and tribulation that the gentiles yet to come into the Body of Christ are expecting? There’ll be enumerable Christians and Jews who are persecuted but not the first wave of us? (2Ti 3:12) That sounds a bit elitist to me. (no offense intended as it wasn’t you who came up with the theory) There’s one verse that could support that idea in Rev. 3:10 although, personally, I think it applies to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In fact, Josephus writes of the first time Jerusalem was surrounded and for some unknown reason, the leader of the forces turned around and left! Strange. In fact all sorts of strange events are reported to have happened at that time but I don’t have time to run through the www looking for corroborating evidence. Things like signs over Jerusalem. One was a star in the shape of a sword hanging over the city and another was visions in the clouds overhead of horses, chariots and troops in armour making all sorts of noise moving around! Odd stuff Josephus records. http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#chariots
1Th 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you,
1Th 3:12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you,
1Th 3:13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Here we have the Lord’s parousia (coming), as being “with His saints.” This is stated also in 1Th 4:14 “For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.” Also, Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones (saints) with him.”
1 Th 4 begins the discourse on what the Day of the Lord will be like for believers. Paul was, no doubt, aware of the First Testament Scriptures outlining “that day” as being one of judgment but now there is a “secret” element added to it. What was once secret and possibly only revealed to Paul as he was in the wilderness at Mt. Sinai in Arabia, he now shares with the Thessalonians. The rapture is that secret. He outlines how it is that we’ll be gathered to Christ and become “one” with Him. Some were sorrowing of loved ones who were possibly persecuted to death or died for some reason and Paul tells them not to sorrow as others do because they will see them again on the Day of the Coming of the Lord.
1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
It’s not that the “coming” of the Lord was the secret because certainly all the FT prophets speak of it and Paul knew that perfectly well, having studied Scripture as a Pharisee. He probably would have stayed a Pharisee if the Lord had not called him as a chosen vessel. The theory of the coming of the Lord as being the great secret, is in my mind, stretching the verses to fit that idea. The secret rapture is one of the newest non-doctrinal theories within the Church. According to the history of the Church it’s just not there, that I can find, as an ancient idea.
Paul now launches into the analogy of the thief in the night just as the Lord, Jesus, had described His coming. I think the coming of the Lord refers to His judgment both in 70AD and again at the end of the tribulation. There’s also the element of wrath in the judgment of 70AD and Paul is explaining that if they remain vigilent they’ll escape the judgment of wrath coming on the generation that rejected Messiah. (Mat 3:7, Luk 21:23, Jhn 3:36) Most all prophecies have an element of the near/far formula which is a prophecy yet future that will be the culmination of the prophecy at present (their present). Most likely the prophesy will mirror the present in most respects but will finalize the language spoken by the mouth of the Lord through the prophets.
1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
1Th 5:11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He is coming to judge Jerusalem and those who did not accept salvation through Messiah, Jesus. Those who believe are looking for it but those who do not are not aware of the judgment in store. Perhaps they think that because the Believers had vacated Jerusalem that the Romans would be happy that the malefactors had left and then they’d have “peace and security.” That was not to be, neither will it be when the false messiah comes. When they claim peace and security for Jerusalem they will then bring sudden destruction upon it, “for strong is the Lord God who judges her.” (Rev. 18:8)
2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering–
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from [fn] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Here Paul is explaining to the Thessalonians that they will be preserved on the day when the Lord is revealed from Heaven and comes to be glorified in His saints while bringing judgment on the wicked and those who hate Him. To me, it’s not either/or but both occurring simultaneously.
ESV – Isa 40:10 –
Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
I’ll pick up with 2 Thessalonians a bit later so I can listen to Dr. Brown’s show!
Picking up with some other thoughts on the end of our age.
We haven’t looked at the Hosanna verses yet.
Mat 21:9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!”
Mat 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
Mar 11:9 And those who went before and those who followed were shouting, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
Mar 11:10 Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David! Hosanna in the highest!”
Jhn 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'”
Luk 19:38 saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
Concerning the final coming of the Lord, if we look at the verses which talk about the religious Jews “not seeing Him again until the time that they say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,” that sounds to me like if the Jews won’t see Him how is it anyone will see Him? Especially since there are Jews and Gentiles making up the Body of Christ and if, as the pre-tribulationists believe, the unbelieving Jews are left in a class by themselves what do we do with the “believing” Jews? It makes no sense to separate out the believers from the non-yet-believers when Scripture says that the Lord is coming to be glorified in His saints? The Jews of the tribulation, as well as the Gentiles, are considered saints too. They make up an enumerable amount of people that are saved during the tribulation. That’s a lot missing from the Body of Christ in my mind!
He tells the religious leaders of His day that they must welcome Him back before they’ll see their Messiah again. We have the religious leaders of the orthodox today that deny Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah. Jesus says there will come a day when they’ll recognize they were wrong and they will cry out to him! He will answer them speedily!
There’s several ideas in the verses below that can be used to justify the coming of the Lord as being the first time in 70AD and again at the end of the age. One idea that sounds quite reasonable when looking at certain verses is when Jesus tells some of His disciples that one (some) of them will not die “until” he sees the kingdom of God coming on earth. Because of that saying it was spread abroad that that disciple wouldn’t die at all but that’s not what He say. He said only that he would remain “until” the Lord comes. So, either we have John still walking around (which we know when and where he died) or Jesus was talking about His coming in 70AD with judgment on that generation. I believe it’s the latter.
Mat 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Mar 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
Jhn 21:20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?”
Jhn 21:21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?”
Jhn 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”
Jhn 21:23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
Jhn 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
I don’t know how else to interpret the verses other than that they are referring to His coming in judgment by way of the Romans. If you have any thoughts otherwise I’ll gladly hear them. I have to say I have no idea (aside from John) who the other of the “some” is! 🙂
Oh and “Good Morning to you” too! Lol! I was typing one minute and the next my head was falling over to one side so I never did get that posting finished until this afternoon!
Wow great post Sheila. You have put me to task, so lets look at the passages you have referenced and the questions you raised.
“Why would the Church in the end times expect to be spared their test of faith, (1 Pe 1:7) by being removed from any trials, persecutions and tribulation…”
– They will not be spared their test of faith, trials, persecutions and tribulation. Scripture says that all who follow Jesus will suffer these things seeing that the world hated Him it will also hate us who are in Him. The church today is seeing all of those things, more-so in some nations on a more intense scale but we are seeing it here too. We all suffer tribulation at times.
“There’ll be enumerable Christians and Jews who are persecuted but not the first wave of us? (2Ti 3:12)”
– 2 Timothy 3:12 only backs up my above statement that we who live godly lives in Christ suffer afflictions in this life.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
“There’s one verse that could support that idea in Rev. 3:10 although, personally, I think it applies to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.”
Revelation 3:10 does not allow for application to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD because of its enormity.
Revelation 3:10;
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
This hour of temptation will come upon all the world and to all who dwell upon the earth. That clearly did not happen in 70 AD.
“Here we have the Lord’s parousia (coming), as being “with His saints.” This is stated also in 1Th 4:14 “For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.” Also, Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones (saints) with him.”
These scriptures speak of the Lords Second Coming when he brings all his saints with him since he promises us that wherever he is, there we shall always be with him.
“The rapture is that secret. He outlines how it is that we’ll be gathered to Christ and become “one” with Him.”
– I agree whole heartedly. This was one of the points that both Peter and I brought attention to near the beginning our our chats. The rapture is the mystery Paul is revealing.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture event. When the Lord calls those who have fallen asleep first, and then those who are alive to him in the clouds to ever be with him. And he takes us to where he promised the apostles he would take them, heaven.
John 14:2-6
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
– In verse 2 Jesus tells us where he is going, to his Father’s house (heaven). He is going to prepare a place for us.
– In verse 3 he says that if he ‘goes’ (to his Fathers house, heaven) he will ‘come’ and ‘receive us to him’ (rapture) that where he is (heaven), there we may be also.
– Verse 4 Jesus tells them that they know where he is going (heaven) and that they know the way.
– Verse 6 Jesus says that no man comes to the Father, which is where he was then going, but through him, which is where he comes to take us.
Tying this into 1 Thessalonians 4, it is the rapture event that is being spoken of. Notice that there is no mention of the Lord coming to Jerusalem or stepping foot on this earth. We are called up to Him and Paul even reiterates what Jesus said in John 14, that then shall we ever be with the Lord, who will take us to Heaven.
“The theory of the coming of the Lord as being the great secret, is in my mind, stretching the verses to fit that idea.”
– Agreed. The pre-trib rapture does not espouse that theory. The Second Coming was previously revealed by the prophets, but the rapture was the mystery/secret which was now revealed.
1 Thessalonians chapter 5:
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
– “What must be remembered is that the breaking of the second seal and the removal of peace from the earth is what inaugurated this time of global destruction (Rev. 6:4; 1 Thess. 5:3)” -Carlos Cuellar
This reminded me of another thing I always hear from the post-trib side of things, that the Church is promised to be saved from God’s wrath but not from the antichrists wrath. But it’s the seven seals of Revelation (God’s wrath) that unleashes the antichrist and the world wide wars.
Revelation 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
—-
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Paul states that for those who are sons of light and sons of day, they “are not in darkness that the day would overtake [them]”. He then comes to the conclusion that they are not destined for this wrath (1 Thess. 5:9), being the Day of the Lord.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
– and are thus to encourage each other with these truths (1 Thess. 5:11).
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Verse 23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse ties into verse 9. It is in reference to the rapture when Jesus will come and save us from the tribulation wrath that is going to break forth from the opening of the seals, etc. by calling us up to Himself.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-6
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
– The Thessalonians were undergoing hardships with persecution and sufferings in verse 4 for which Paul praises their faithfulness and patience proving they were counted worthy of the kingdom of God in verse 5. He goes on in verse 6 to speak of those who cause tribulation will be re-payed with tribulation.
7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
In verse 7 Paul invites the Thessalonians to rest with him and other believers who have lived godly lives and suffered tribulation. They will be resting with him when the Second Coming of Jesus commences. Verses 8 and 9 speak of the judgement against those who reject God. Verse 10 speaks of Jesus glorying in His church saints and tribulation saints as all His saints will be together with him in that day.
Then Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 goes on to address their concern that they had missed the rapture.
“the Lord is revealed from Heaven and comes to be glorified in His saints while bringing judgment on the wicked and those who hate Him. To me, it’s not either/or but both occurring simultaneously.”
– I agree. Jesus brings his saints with him at the second coming when he brings final judgement and ushers in the millennium.
It’s getting late so I will try to get to your 2nd post tomorrow and maybe expand on what I’ve said above after I wake up and see what I’ve posted, haha!
-Good night.
Morning has arrived!
Going in reverse order =P
Matthew 16:28
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
– When Christ returns as Messiah, the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13), he will call to account how each person responded to the truth while on earth. “What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Matthew 16:24). When Jesus comes back to reign “in the glory of His Father with His angels,” He will serve judgement and “repay every man according to his deeds” as people enter the millenial kingdom (verse 27, 24:40-51, Psalm 62:12). The “glory” Jesus spoke of was about to be shown to some of the disciples at that time. They would “not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (verse 28) Here the Lord was referring to His transfiguration (17:1-9, Mark 8:38-9:1, Luke 9:26-27). All three of the synoptic Gospels tell of the dramatic transfiguration happening immediately fol,lowing this prediction by the King and the revelation of His kingdom. Peter, James and John were the ones who saw this preview of the coming kingdom glory.
John 21:
John helps explains the passages by saying that Jesus did not say “…He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”. Jesus was telling them not to worry over such things, and he was also teaching them that his coming could be at any time (imminency), and to live as though he could come at any moment, which is only possible with a pre-trib rapture.
“I don’t know how else to interpret the verses other than that they are referring to His coming in judgment by way of the Romans. If you have any thoughts otherwise I’ll gladly hear them. I have to say I have no idea (aside from John) who the other of the “some” is! 🙂 ”
– Did people see Jesus during the destruction in 70 AD? I’m trying to find a connection to the Romans in 70 AD but I do not see any connection.
I believe it’s in references to Peter, James and John who witnessed the trnasfiguration of Christ, which was a preview of the coming glory.
“the religious Jews “not seeing Him again until the time that they say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,” that sounds to me like if the Jews won’t see Him how is it anyone will see Him?”
– As you mentioned, He is speaking to the religious leaders of national Israel. National Israel will not see Jesus again until they welcome him back (national turning), at which point he will come and save national Israel. At Jesus’s second coming, after Israel welcomes him back,” Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” every eye shall see Him. So both Jews and Gentiles will see Him when He returns (everyone will see Him).
“Especially since there are Jews and Gentiles making up the Body of Christ and if, as the pre-tribulationists believe, the unbelieving Jews are left in a class by themselves what do we do with the “believing” Jews? It makes no sense to separate out the believers from the non-yet-believers when Scripture says that the Lord is coming to be glorified in His saints?”
– The bride/body of Christ is distinct from other saints. There are Old Testament saints. They are never called the bride/body of Christ. They are considered the wife of YHVH. John the baptist is a good example of this distinction.
“We know from the Word of God that the Old Testament saints are not resurrected with the Church before the Tribulation; they are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:2). John the Baptist, who was the last of the Old Testament prophets, called himself a friend of the bridegroom and did not consider himself to be a member of the Bride of the Messiah, the Church (Jn. 3:27-30).
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Hence, the “many” who are bidden [to attend] the marriage supper on earth are all the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints resurrected after the Second Coming of Messiah (Revelation 19:9).”
“The Jews of the tribulation, as well as the Gentiles, are considered saints too.”
– Yes, but not church saints. All saints will reign with Christ after his Second Coming. But there are distinction in scripture between the various types of saints. Old Testament saints and Tribulation saints are friends of the bridegroom, while Church saints are the bride as they said ‘yes’ during the church age.
I hope I touched an everything. And I hope this helps clarify my position.
Time for some Lunch.
Yours in Christ,
-Benjamin
Benjamin–
“They would “not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (verse 28) Here the Lord was referring to His transfiguration (17:1-9, Mark 8:38-9:1, Luke 9:26-27). All three of the synoptic Gospels tell of the dramatic transfiguration happening immediately fol,lowing this prediction by the King and the revelation of His kingdom. Peter, James and John were the ones who saw this preview of the coming kingdom glory.”
Why did He say, “tarry till I come?” What does the transfiguration have to do with “His coming in His Kingdom?” He hadn’t yet received His Kingdom or did he? I feel like I’m missing something very important here…
I said 70AD because “He said,” He would be “coming in His Kingdom.” And that some would see Him. I really don’t have that part figured out yet. 🙂 For some reason the transfiguration idea bugs me. If only because that was the time of His passion in the garden and they (Moses and Elijah) came to minister to Him.
I’m going to break it down into shorter posts so I can better keep up.
I can see, though, where I have muddled thoughts on some things that I’m not sure of, that’s why we’re talking this out, after all. I’m enjoying myself immensely! I’ve not really had any time to devote to conversations for quite a while so I’m thanking the Lord for it right now!! And thanks for your patience!
Psa 106:1 Praise the LORD! Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever!
Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people; help me when you save them,
Psa 106:5 that I may look upon the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may rejoice in the gladness of your nation, that I may glory with your inheritance.
Psa 106:48 Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! And let all the people say, “Amen!” Praise the LORD!
Sounds great Sheila.
I was considering breaking my last post up as well but decided not too, but it may be a good idea.
I just wanted to clarify one small point real quick.
“Why did He say, “tarry till I come?””
– This passage is not related to the Matthew 16:28 passage. In Matthew 16 he is speaking of his transfiguration (which I will go more in-depth into soon), in John 21 Jesus is speaking of his appearing to rapture the church to himself at the end of the age.
I too have been enjoying our fellowship. 🙂
Transfiguration:
“Peter, James and John were the ones who would see “the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28), a revelation event that took place in 17:1-8. In verse 2, the word “transfigured” is the Greek term ‘metamorphoomai’, which means to be changed in form, or in the case of Christ, to be glorified. Christ’s face “shone like the sun, and His garmetns became as white as light” (verse 2). He was seen by the three apostles in His kingdom brilliance, and with Jesus were Moses the Elijah, talking with Him (verse 3). They were discussing with Christ what was about to happen to Him when He departed for Jerusalem for the final time (Luke 9:31). Impetuous Peter wanted to make three tabernacles (tents)–one for Jesus and one each for Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:4). The desciples then could bask in the light of the kingdom blessing with Christ and these respected prophets of the Old Testament.
The voice of God the Father (Mark 9:7) was again heard from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pelased; listen to Him!” (Matthew 17:5;cf. 3:17; Psalm 2:7). The disciples fell on thier faces (Matthew 17:6) and had to be lifted from the ground by the Lord (verse 7). Looking around, the disciples no longer saw Moses and Elijah. This event brought confirmation to these leading apostles that one day, Christ will come to earth in full glory to reign and rule!”
Benjamin,
I’m going to outline my position on the verses we’ve discussed and hopefully I can do a better job this time at illuminating my understanding of the trumpet blast, the catching up of the Church and the coming of the Lord to reign together with those He’s come for.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here the Lord tells us that “immediately after the tribulation” there will be awesome signs in the heavens concerning the sun, moon and the stars. The stars could be angels but in Revelation there’s said to be boulders that fall from heaven too–those could be the stars spoken of (asteroids come to mind) or also the dragon, the serpent, satan who “draws a third part of the stars and casts them to earth.” The stars could elude to the fallen angels but we don’t really know to which He’s referring. At least I don’t know, maybe you have some ideas. Suffice it to say that there are signs in the heavens because the “powers of the heavens will be shaken.”
“Then there will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man” at which time, “all the tribes of the earth will mourn” when they “see the Son of Man ‘coming on the clouds of heaven’ with ‘POWER and GREAT GLORY.”
At that time the Lord “will send out His angels WITH A LOUD TRUMPET CALL and they will ‘gather together His elect’ from the four winds–from one end of heaven to the other.”
So that’s the 1st loud TRUMPET call we hear about.
Next we’ll look again at the verses in Thessalonians. Paul is reiterating what all the prophets know, that the Lord will come with a great commotion and loud fanfare, not stealthily but again, we’re told He comes with a TRUMPET blast.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
That’s the 2nd time we’ve heard of the loud TRUMPET blast. It appears we have a very noisy descension. There’s the “cry of the command” with the “voice of an archangel” at which time “the dead in Christ will rise first.” I don’t see us returning already having our resurrection bodies as he’s describing the first resurrection right then and there. Those of us alive “will meet them in the air” as the Lord is “descending.”
1Cr 15:51 “…We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the “last trumpet”. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
That’s a 3rd time we’ve heard of a TRUMPET accompanying the Lord’s return. I can’t help but think that certainly everyone will hear and see Him just as He said they would. It doesn’t sound like a secret at all. The secret was the manner in which we’ll receive our resurrection bodies and “put on immortality,” exchanging that which perishes for that which is eternal. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1Cr 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Cr 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Cr 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cr 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery….
“…this is how we come to be clothed in immortality…it happens in the twinkling of an eye on the day the Lord returns, at the LAST TRUMPET.”
All the verification of the very loud and public manner in which the day of our being “caught up” is heralded doesn’t allow for a secret rapture that I can see.
I’ll think on it some more for tomorrow.
Thanks Sheila,
Since we are reviewing the passages we have been looking at, I am going to post the entirety of an article I only exerpted earlier. Which may help explain the Matthew 24 passage and 1 Thessalonians passage as I understand them. This article is by Thomas Ice. I’ll review 1 Corinthians later on.
***
MATTHEW 24:31: RAPTURE OR SECOND COMING?
by Thomas Ice
Many non-pretribulationists contend that Matthew 24:31 teaches a post-tribulational rapture. All agree that this passage teaches Christ’s second coming. This means that the question revolves around whether Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27 its parallel passage) is a reference to the rapture or not. I contend that the rapture is not in view in this passage. The text reads as follows:
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)
POSTTRIBULATIONAL POSITION
Popular posttribulational radio personality, Irwin Baxter, believes that the rapture and the second coming “are the same event” in Matthew 24:31.1 “Matthew 24:29 teaches that the coming of the Son of man and the rapture are the same event,” contends Baxter. He arrives at this conclusion by comparing Matthew 24:29-31 to Christ’s return in Revelation 19. In the discussion cited, Baxter does not refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 18, the undisputed rapture passage, as a baseline for defining the rapture.
Posttribulational rapture scholar, Dr. Robert Gundry, also equates the rapture with the second coming in Matthew 24:31. “Posttribulationists,” contends Gundry, “equate the rapture with the gathering of the elect by angels at the sound of the trumpet (Matt. 24:31).”2 Unlike Irwin Baxter, Dr. Gundry does interact with the rapture passage (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). He says, “If we define the rapture strictly as a catching up, only one passage in the entire New Testament describes it. That passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.”3
DEFINITION OF THE RAPTURE
As noted earlier, Baxter does not even attempt to define the rapture. Apparently this allows Baxter flexibility to find the rapture in Matthew 24:31. As noted above, Dr. Gundry includes in his definition of the rapture “a catching up” from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Dr. Gundry wants to “broaden the definition to include a gathering or reception” from Matthew 24:31, etc.4 Since the present debate is whether or not Matthew 24:31 is a rapture passage, it would beg the question to include Matthew 24:31 in an a priori definition of the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the only undisputed passage describing the rapture event. Only in this passage is the Greek word harpazô (“caught up”) used, from which the word rapture descends. Whatever else the rapture may include in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it clearly consists of a translation of living believers and the simultaneous resurrection of dead saints.
COMPARISON OF 1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 AND MATTHEW 24:31
In an attempt to equate Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as referring to the same event, Dr. Gundry notes “parallel terminology in Paul’s Thessalonian discussion of the Church’s rapture, where we read of a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering of believers just as in the Olivet Discourse.”5 Indeed, there are some similarities between the rapture and the second coming. There are also some similarities between Christ’s first advent 2,000 years ago and His second advent. But all agree that they are not the same events. We know they are not the same because of the differences. In the case of comparing Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it is the differences that are important. Enough differences exist between the two passages to clearly conclude that they must be separate events.
Dr. Steven McAvoy points out that “the differences between Paul’s Thessalonian statements and Matthew 24:30-31 far outweigh any alleged similarities.”6 Dr. McAvoy continues:
Sproule asks,
Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt. 24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt. 24:31)?7
Feinberg also notes the dissimilarities between the two accounts:
Notice what happens when you examine both passages carefully. In Matthew the Son of Man comes on the clouds, while in 1 Thessalonians 4 the ascending believers are in them. In Matthew the angels gather the elect; in 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself (note the emphasis) gathers the believers. Thessalonians only speaks of the voice of the archangel. In the Olivet Discourse nothing is said about a resurrection, while in the latter text it is the central point. In the two passages the differences in what will take place prior to the appearance of Christ is striking. Moreover, the order of ascent is absent from Matthew in spite of the fact that it is the central part of the epistle.8 9
In addition to the above differences, the order of events are different between the two passages. In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24 they are gathered after Christ’s arrival to earth. “In order for Gundry to establish his view that Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture, he must reconcile the dissimilarities; not simple point to a few similarities.”10 Thus, the differences in the two passages support the pretribulational contention that they are speak of two distinct vents.
WHO ARE THE ELECT?
I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period. Commentators generally recognize that “elect” “may refer to Israel, to the Church, or to both.”11 The context is the determinative factor in any attempt to discover which nuance the author intended. The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. “Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23- 24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view,”12 observes Dr. Stanley Toussaint. Dr. Renald Showers provides a more focused explanation:
The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the believing remnant “mine Elect,” and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on the earth.13
Since the term “elect” is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all three times. Dr. McAvoy says, “The rule of context precludes understanding ‘elect’ in 24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church. Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ‘elect’ in 24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24.”14
THE ANGELIC GATHERING
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ’s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:
“The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel’s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.”15
Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.16 After noting that “from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” means that “the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ’s coming,”17 Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:
First, because of Israel’s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews “into all the winds” (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or “toward all winds” (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad “as four winds of the heavens.” . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.
Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, “from the ends of the earth” (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His “chosen” (vv. 10, 20).
. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with “a great trumpet” (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of “a great trumpet” (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .
Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day “a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)” and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, “There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion.”
It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a “great” trumpet.
Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an “ensign” (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel “from the four corners of the earth.”18
What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.19
CONCLUSION
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ’s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself “the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling” (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!” (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!
ENDNOTES
1 This information is take from the web site of Irwin Baxter at http://www.endtime.com, under the Question and Answer
section dealing with the rapture. All subsequent quotes from Baxter are from the same source.
2 Robert H. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973), p. 135.
3 Robert H. Gundry, First the Antichrist: Why Christ Won’t Come Before the Antichrist Does (Grand Rapids:
Baker, 1997), p. 71.
4 Gundry, First the Antichrist, p. 71.
5 Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, p. 135.
6 Steven L. McAvoy, “A Critique of Robert Gundry’s Posttribulationalism,” Th. D. dissertation, Dallas Theological
Seminary, 1986, p. 136.
7 John A. Sproule, “An Exegetical Defense of Pretribulationism,” Th. D. dissertation, Grace Theological Seminary,
1981, p. 53.
8 Paul D. Feinberg, “Response: Paul D. Feinberg,” in The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Posttribulational? by Richard R.
Reiter, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), p. 225.
9 McAvoy, “Critique of Gundry,” p. 137.
10 McAvoy, “Critique of Gundry,” p. 138.
11 Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, p. 135.
12 Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold The King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1980), p. 277.
13 Renald Showers, Maranatha: Our Lord, Come! (Bellmawr, NJ: The Friends of Israel, 1995), p. 182.
14 McAvoy, “Critique of Gundry,” pp. 140-41.
15 Arnold Fruchtenbaum, The Footsteps of the Messiah (San Antonio: Ariel Press, 1982), p. 299.
16 For more information supporting this view see Showers, Maranatha, pp. 181-84.
17 Showers, Maranatha, p. 182.
18 Showers, Maranatha, pp. 182-83.
19 For this prayer see Showers, Maranatha, p. 183.
“The secret rapture is one of the newest non-doctrinal theories within the Church. According to the history of the Church it’s just not there, that I can find, as an ancient idea.”
The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
“Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference:
“And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.” For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. “And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 AD)
Ephraem wrote an important sermon “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World.” As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church.
“Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!”
[For emphasis I have isolated this next portion]
Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”
There are also other medieval church writings indicating a pre-trib rapture as well as reformation era writings holding to such a view.
Benjamin,
Do you know where I could find their writings? Are they within other books?
I’m going to start looking for them right now!
OK, I found this:
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
If I were to read the first sentence included in the Shepherd’s writing it would say:
“”You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast….
“…Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly.”
There’s a big difference in saying that they “will” escape and they “have already” escaped tribulation.
Another area in which we differ is that you see the entire 7 years as wrath from the Lord and I don’t see it that way at all.
First of all, I don’t think the world would survive 7 years of God’s wrath, and secondly, I believe Scripture better supports that it’s judgment because of the wickedness of mankind (Matt 24:12,Jer 18:12, ) in order to bring people to repentance “before” the day the Lord returns in wrath.
Rev. says “the devil has come down to [us] having great wrath for he knows he has but a short time.” It seems we have the wrath of satan to content with before the wrath of God and it’s his hatred that drives much of the tribulation for the saints. The wrath of God comes in one day, one hour, one minute when their cup is full and the Lord has given them every chance to repent and turn.
Of course the saints need not worry about the wrath of God because we “are not appointed to wrath but to receive salvation.” Yet we read throughout Revelation that the saints are dying in gross numbers. If the wrath of God were being poured out then it is the Lord killing the saints and we know that’s not the case. So, it seems part of the judgment is God letting our adversaries who are destined for destruction follow their evil hearts and do what damage they will.
“There’s a big difference in saying that they “will” escape and they “have already” escaped tribulation.”
His writing contains both “already have” and “will” so he and those he was writing to escaped some tribulation he calls “the beast” and he sees that as a forshadow of the end time “great tribulation” which he believes we can escape.
You can throw that one out if you like. The other are more clear and I just wanted to show that it’s not the newest non-doctrinal theory.
“Another area in which we differ is that you see the entire 7 years as wrath from the Lord and I don’t see it that way at all.”
Then I would like to know what the seal judgements, trumpet judgements and bowl judgements mean in your view? Not what each particular one means, but the lot in general.
Jesus Christ (God) is the one opening the seals. And they do not seem to support the idea that “The wrath of God comes in one day, one hour, one minute”.
Benjamin–“His writing contains both “already have” and ‘will'”
Right, I see that now and I’ve gone on to read even more early writings and it’s sent me back to the Scriptures to look into the parallel persecution of then and of the future tribulation.
Let me finish up with the study I began and I’ll come back with the tribulation judgment and day of wrath as I understand it.
Breaking for dinner. 🙂 Have to feed the brain too!
I was reading on my way home from work this afternoon and thought I’d share a quote from a dearly beloved brother in the Lord, Dave Hunt (1926 – 2013).
From his book ‘Whatever Happened to Heaven’ he says:
“If we take the Bible seriously then we will long for our Lord to catch us away from this earth into His eternal presence. Among the many reasons why we ought to be eagerly looking for the rapture, the most compelling is neither theological nor eschatological, but is our love for Christ. If the church is indeed His bride, then surely we ought to be eagerly anticipating His return to take us to His Father’s house for our marriage to Him. Here we have the most basic, yet most neglected aspect of heaven–that it is to be the scene of a great wedding that our savior has long anticipated. How can His bride not share that joyful hope?”
I just happened to read that this afternoon and wanted to share it.
Benjamin,
You’re right, that was really nice. Thanks for sharing that!
I’m starting to gather up my Scripture verses and pull together my thoughts on the day of the Lord. Much of it comes from the FT and although there are many prophecies that speak of judgment in varying degrees it sounds to me as if there is only one day of wrath that comes on the whole world unawares. I’m sure it will take some time so don’t look for it real soon.
In other words, you can probably sleep on it! 🙂
In reading the early writings again, I feel like their expressions and wording is somewhat vague and can be misconstrued depending on their definition of the various terminology they use.
I wish they had included a commentary on the Scripture to support their statements. That would have been tremendously helpful. But I do see where the idea was taking shape in some minds. I wish they had taken it to the next level. I have no idea their standing in the Church or even who they are yet. It’s something I’ll have to let pass for now as I’ve too much on my plate already.
Talk to you as soon as I can!
I forgot Corinthians. And take your time with the FT references you are looking forward to posting. I too am in anticipation 😛 And yes I love you and this conversation. Any chance to dig into the Word is an amazing growing experience with the Lord.
You will notice that in Corinthians, Paul has been showing the connection between New Testament truth and the Feasts of Israel. For example, in 1 Cor 5:6-8 he talks about the Feasts of Passover and Unleavened bread and shows how this is fulfilled in Jesus’ death. In chapter 15:20-24 he speaks about the Feast of First Fruits and how this was fulfilled with Jesus’ resurrection. Now, in 1 Cor 15:51 he talks about the ‘last trump’ and connects that with the resurrection and rapture of the church. This is simply a fulfillment of another Jewish feast – the Feast of Trumpets.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Jewish believer in Jesus writes in ‘The footsteps of the Messiah’.
‘It is evident from the fact that Paul used the definite article ‘the last trump’ that he expected the Corinthians to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament, especially those of the Feast of Trumpets. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony there are a series of short trumpet sounds concluding with one long trumpet blast which is called the Tekiah Gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it occurs, will fulfill the feast of trumpets.’
In another article by Fructenbaum he writes:
“The seven holy seasons of Lev 23 are fulfilled in the order in which they fall. What follows the Feast of Trumpets is the Day of Atonement, which was a day of Israel’s national atonement coupled with the affliction of the soul. The Day of Atonement is to be fulfilled by the seven years of Tribulation , during which Israel will suffer afflictions leading up to her national repentance and restoration. And just as the Feast of Trumpets precedes the Day of Atonement, so will the rapture precede the seven years of tribulation.”
I haven’t forgotten you Benjamin. I had a busy few days. We celebrated my mother in law’s 80th birthday this past weekend!
I’m trying to greatly condense and edit what’s become a looooonnng post! If not by this evening, I’m hoping (God willing) by tomorrow sometime. I am working on it.
Talk to you then.
btw–did I say something to offend you? If I did I don’t know what it could have been. I do sometimes answer in a matter of fact way. Don’t take it personally!
Good morning Sheila,
No, you have not offended me, not at all! Now I’m curious if I said something that would have led you to feel as if I had been offended? 😛
Till later then!
Well, is this smiley guy sticking his tongue out?
😛 If not, sorry, it’s just me misinterpreting it.
Let me get busy again…ttyl!
I suppose he is. It’s an odd looking smiley but yes it is the result of : P which I by no means meant to convey offendedness or any type of making fun of, etc. I was just trying to ‘be fun’. I apologise for the misleading smiley.
No worries!
Hi Benjamin,
It’s hard to keep up lately. Sorry about that.
I was thinking on the pre-trib theory and that of imminence vs. the thief in the night and I hope to show from Scripture (more in another post) that it doesn’t have to be that He comes once secretly and then a second time in judgment for all the world to see. He comes back once and that for salvation and judgment all at the same time. I think the Lord comes as a thief only to those who don’t believe he’s coming at all. Why should unbelievers be ready for the day of the Lord? They’re not expecting it to begin with so they’ll all be taken by surprise. Those “understanding the times” (1 Chron 12:32) will be living in anticipation and will be prepared to meet the Lord. It’s also a warning for those in the Church that may be saying, “The Lord is delaying His coming” and they fall away from the truth and from serving God and they begin serving man instead. To them, likewise, He will appear when they’re not expecting Him. The key is to stay ready and to be among those who overcome the world by “abiding in Christ” and by helping hold each other up in these trying times and by keeping fellowship with those who know and keep the truth till the very end. We need one another as those who make up the Body of Christ. (A fine brother in Christ recently reminded me of that fact! And I thank him–he’s a real champion!) “Abide in me for you can do nothing of yourselves.” (Jhn 15:4)
There’s the story of the wise women with their lamps trimmed, having enough oil on hand always so that when the bridegroom comes they can go out to meet Him no matter the hour. His arrival is always imminent but they don’t know the time of His coming. Regardless, they’ve kept themselves ready while they waited. Contrary to the ones who were ready are those who were lax and while the bridegroom tarried they had no oil saved up to light their lamps with. For those women He came unexpectedly and they were caught off guard, so for them He was as a thief in the night. (Mat 24:44; Luke 12:40)
The coming of the Lord will be as in the days of Noah. The unbelievers were going about business as usual, trading on the stock market, watching football games, eating, drinking and partying until the day that Noah entered the ark and the LORD shut the door. (Gen 7:16) Too late they realized they’d be swept away by the flood. (Mat 24:37-39) It’ll be the same way at the end of the age. The believers will be expecting His advent because we know the signs He told us to look for (1 Chron 12:32) therefore we know the time is drawing near while the wicked and the unbelievers are mocking those who believe saying, “Where is the promise of His coming for since our ancestors fell asleep all things remain as they were since the beginning of creation.” (2Pe 3:4) At the hour of the world’s greatest darkness, the fearful will be groping to hold onto one another but all believers will be looking up for that strike of lightning signaling the Lord’s return. That would be at the end of the age, the time of His appearing in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory and shining like the sun! (Mat 24:30) That’s the day of the rapture of the Church. That’s the day of the Bridegroom coming for His bride. That’s also the day of vengeance for those who hate Him. To me, that’s the contrast of our expectation of His coming vs. His being as a thief in the night. Besides, for believers, He’s always near, whether in life or in death. So, in a sense, His appearing to us is only ever a heartbeat away.
Scripture tells us that at the end of the age the angels will come and gather the elect from the four corners of heaven to meet the Lord in the air. (Mat 24:31, I believe that’s where we should insert 1Thess 4:14-17 and 1Cr 15:52. It all makes sense that way. To me.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In the post(s) to follow I hope to show that all the prophets agree that the Day of the Lord is both a day of salvation and a day of wrath. The two may be separated by a hick-up but certainly not by 7 years. The contrasting, parallel examples in the prophesies about “that day” will illustrate the dual nature of what we know as “the Day of the Lord.” He comes for both salvation and recompense. It’s a day of judgment either for grace or guilt.
(Although, it’ll have to wait for another thread, I believe there will be people left alive that have not been raptured or wiped out — that’s another element that’s not thoroughly discussed — maybe another time!)
I guess the other question we need to decide is “When is the man of lawlessness revealed?” That would answer to 2 Thess 2:1-8. Is there a place in Scripture that tells us when the antichrist is revealed? When is the man shown to be propped up by the activity of satan? Is it in Revelation at the beginning of the book? I don’t see it there. If the rapture is before any tribulation, by the pre-trib theory, we should see the man who is the pretender at the beginning of Revelation because Scripture says we won’t be raptured until it’s revealed who he really is. As I said previously (I think) you can’t build a theory of a pre-tribulation rapture based on ommission. That the Church is not specifically named shouldn’t be what they rest their case on.
I’ll try to greatly shorten the other post and try my best to get it posted in the wee hours of what will be tomorrow. That’s my plan anyway, God willing. Then again, it already is tomorrow! Better shoot for tomorrow evening. 🙂
ttyl