The Israel Debate

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Dr. Brown debates Steve Wohlberg on the meaning of Israel in the New Testament. Does it refer to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or does it refer to a spiritual entity only? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God is utterly trustworthy and He who promised to scatter Israel to the nations is the same God who has re-gathered Israel from the nations and who will bring Jewish people to repentance and faith in Jesus the Messiah.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus will not return until a Jewish Jerusalem welcomes Him back.  God will keep His people, God will restore Jerusalem, and God will restore Israel!

 

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103 Comments
  1. Dan1el…

    I like #35. We’re allowed to “flesh out” things as believers. Whether it’s all correct or not I appreciate how you tied things together and I believe there is substance there, even if all the details don’t end up being perfect. If I’m not mistaken, this is the way Jews studied the bible by going back and forth “fleshing it out”.

  2. Mark,
    I think you’ll be quite pleased to know I have watched almost all of those videos and am now about to finish up the last 30 or so minutes on the one discussing the Messianic Covenant. I must say I am quite pleased with what I’m seeing. He very much has a way of simplifying things and am gaining a lot from his teachings on these 5 covenants. He really grabbed my attention(in a good way) when he gave the example of Messianic Covenant believers trying to enter into the Mosaic Covenant(which was ONLY intended for the Jewish people…and willing foreigners… pre-Messianic covenant days) by tithing. It was at that point I said “ok, this guy cares more about truth than pleasing man, I’ll listen on”. But I digress 🙂

    I was so refreshed to hear him say some of the things he did. While I don’t necessarily see everything the way he does there truly is a lot of meat there.

    BTW, I agree with what you wrote about presenting our bodies as “instruments of righteousness”. My main point was in ensuring a correct foundation is laid in our lives. If Paul felt need to reinforce this foundation many years later to these churches that existed decades in some cases it must have been important.

    Anyway, enough of that, back on to the thread at hand.

  3. As a general point I think it’s good for all of us to remember that swinging to the opposite extreme is also never healthy.

    In other words, as much damage as “replacement theology” has caused it doesn’t mean we(gentile believers) all need to be carrying philacteries, observing Jewish holidays, adopting external jewish customs, and sabbaths, etc…of course we’re “free” to, but I’m talking about unhealthy soulish infatuation rather than appreciation and gaining spiritual insight of how these things point to Jesus.

    I liken it to the way Calvinism has destroyed many lives but it doesn’t make stringent Armenianism accurate either.

    I believe Steven(the man debating Dr. Brown) had some crucially important truths he was expressing of the inheritance we all really do have in Christ. Many of the things he was saying are often glossed over and not apprehended by believers. I’m not endorsing his endgame, but rather am seeing into some very valid important truths he was highlighting.

  4. That’s lovely news Dave.

    I believe America and Britain are epicenters of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 teachers. David Pawson is fallible (along with me,you,MLB and all of us) but he has a ‘passion’ for truth. He identifies with ‘Mr Valiant Fortruth’ in Pilgrim’s Progress,and with Jeremiah in Holy Scripture.

    The reason I am so keen for MLB and David to get together is because in hose two guys you have two people who are yes,fallible,but who have rare insight for the Body ; to get them bonded would be a wonderful benefit to many many people Stateside (I hope anyway).

    By way of contrast,to put Michael or David together with a 2 Timothy 4:3-4 teacher would be an oil and water non-starter ; but to get Michael and David together would be to put two rare quality teachers together – note Ecclesiastes 4:12).

    I’m digressing here too.

    Dave,here is a lovely talk about Israel that David gave I think back in the 1980s ; called ‘A Biblioal Understanding of Israel.’ (Eliyahu,do hear it too,and all on here.) You can hear this online or download free on MP3,nd listen in car,or while walking the dog,or whatever :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/647?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DBiblical%26x%3D28%26y%3D5

    ——————–
    Sadly,there are thousands upon thousands of sincere men with diplomas in America,but I believe there are very very few men like Pawson.`

    (Read this review by J M ; and give yourself a wonderful treat by getting the book :
    http://www.amazon.com/review/R3KDL6TK9F1FES/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0340864273&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
    —————–

  5. I felt the debate was quite biased and unfair, given that Dr. Brown didn’t allow Steve to expound on Scriptures, when he was proving a point. Brown often interupted Steve while He was explaining. However what was impressive about Steve was the way he handled all of it with patience, displaying his born again qualities as a christian. I also think Steve did a great job in outlining his view, which I believe makes Biblical sense and will stand the test of “All Scriptures”.

    In Ephesians 2:11-19, the Bible tells us that the Cross has broken down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Cross says there is no distinction between Jew and gentile.

    Therefore, this theology that places Israel, in a particular end time scenario that God has a special and a separate plan for them and the rest are his step children; this partition, the middle wall of separation is actually anti-cross. When we look at the cross what should we see? No more middle wall of separation. In building up that middle wall of separation, christians effectively deny the very things the cross stands for. Do you realize what the cross accomplished? There is no more separation between Jew and Gentile. Don’t you realize what you are saying is actually denying what Jesus Christ did on the cross? Do you want to deny Jesus Christ? It is no longer, do you want to deny what I just told you is true. Do you believe in Jesus? If you believe in the cross, then there is no way one can possibly accept this teaching.

  6. I left a comment directed to Dr. Brown this morning it was #37. Can anyone tell me where how or why it disappeared?

  7. Quick comment on your other post Dave :

    Overeacting is a common trait inside and outside the Body :

    1) Augustine overreacted against Pelagius ; consequently (AHARIT!) a distorted (and catstrophic) view of predestination now rules the roost. 2) The ‘Magisterial Reformers’ overreacted against Catholic superstition ; consequently (AHARIT !),many in that ‘Camp’ are trapped by a dry,intellectual,binitarian (in effect) faith. 3) Also,some have overeacted in recent years against one-man leadership ; consequently (AHARIT),elderhood is held (by some such) as a function,not an ‘office’ (actually,I think it is BOTH).

    Trying to make this bitesize ; for the topic here is the physical descendents of Israel.

    Also note your comment on Steve. And yes again,here is another trait of people : many are unable to distinguish between wheat from chaff (their personal library contains both good and bad teaching ; no sifting has taken place) ; and some are unable to spot wheat withing a heap of chaff (i.e. sometimes someone who holds a wrong stance can nevertheless hold a few solid truths in the mix as well.)

    LOF team,if that’s too off-topic,remove it if you want ; I just wanted to throw two cents in (on three AHARITS !).

    (AHARIT is a Hebrew word ; Michael has a nice free piece on this here – lasts just over 24 mins :

    http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/watch/hebrew-word-can-save-your-life )

  8. I’m surprised no one’s brought up the significance of the Feast Days, especially those in the Fall.

    I’ve thought the Revelation seems to be the culmination of the Fall Feasts. It’s true the latter chapters speak of the Church and the New Jerusalem but it seems to me that’s not until after the thousand year reign of Messiah. There’s a whole lot of prophecies yet to be fulfilled between now and then.

  9. Sheila,

    I totally agree! There is so much depth in the feasts, speaking not only spiritual realities for believers, but also natural unfolding of events.

  10. Mark,

    I understand your desire to see Dr. Brown and Pawson get together. My past post somewhere in reference to this was just me having a bit of fun.

    Reality be told, we all need to be winnowed and tossed into the air so the chaff can be blown away, with only the wheat remaining. This is much more imperative for those who are teachers, however, and I can appreciate the sense of urgency to comply with Him. But as you stated we are all fallible and I believe if we lay our hearts as vulnerable and moldable before the Lord He will be faithful burn away all dross/chaff.

  11. In case anyone thinks I am anti-Semitic because of my remarks, let me assure you that I am not; however, I believe Jews are in first place wherever they go and whatever they do.
    As for their “involvement”/”placement” in things of righteousness/God, they are the “roots” (Abraham) [Ro 11] of “God’s Israel” [Gal 6], the “foundations” of “New Jerusalem” [Rv 22] — far beyond all of these things, there is Jew in particular, who is called “King of Righteousness” and “God”.

    I hope I’ve proven that I do not ascribe only evil to Jews — on the contrary, I wish I were a physical Jew; I am not.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding.

  12. Please post this sir and let you and people comment on this!

    In Ephesians 2:11-19, the bible tells us that the cross has broken down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Cross says there is no distinction between Jew and gentile.

    Therefore, this theology that places Israel, in a particular end time scenario that God has a special and a separate plan for them and the rest are his step children; this partition, the middle wall of separation is actually Anti-cross. When you look at the cross what do you see? No more middle wall of separation. In building up that middle wall of separation, christians effectively deny the very things the cross stands for.Do you realize what the cross accomplished? There is no more separation between Jew and Gentile. Don’t you realize what you are saying is actually denying what Jesus Christ did on the cross? Do you want to deny Jesus Christ? It is no longer, do you want to deny what I just told you is true. Do you believe in Jesus? If you believe in the cross, then there is no way one can possibly accept this teaching.

  13. It seems to me that as the kingdom comes, there will be so much light that whatever is to be saved, will be saved.

    It may be the Gentiles that manifest that light of God in Christ to the world, but when all of Israel that is to be saved, is saved by the light,
    will the rest of the world be ready to receive all that Israel will manifest?

  14. (Dave,MLB and Pawson complement each other : figuratively speaking,Michael takes the narrow Way cable and removes it from the ‘new RELIGION socket’,and plugs it where it belongs,in the new COVENANT socket ; David meanwhile,walks up to MLB and puts a truly trinitarian,industrial-strength dragnet into Michael’s hands (saying ‘try that on for size’ !)
    ————-
    Teaching Steve may or may not have heard :

    I would be interested to know what things have been fed into Steve’s mind ; I had a quick look on the whitehorse site,and wikipedia,but didn’t find much on the bio front. I wonder if Steve has read any writings of the HIJACKERS (?) ; Augustine of Hippo basically hijacked orthodoxy,the ‘Reformers’ sat at his feet. The Western contingent of the Body has ended up with a double-hijack : the Reformers – in effect – hijacked the new,better,Second Covenant from the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel,and turned it into a Gentile Religion ; furthermore,into a ‘Covenant of Grace.’ Because the ‘Reformers’ went hook line and sinker on Augustine’s distorted take on predestination,they imagine this grace is extended only to those they think God pre-selected to join Him ‘in heaven’ ; and,anyone not picked out of the predestination-hat (so to speak) has no option but to desrvedly go to hell.

    I do not know if Steve has read any of the ‘Reformed’ stuff,but,I think he may very likely have been fed teaching from those who had the narrow Way cable put into the wrong socket (see above). It is a shame to see one of Paul’s kinsmen according to the flesh,being affected by the covenant hijack. I wish Steve well though ; may he be in the new Jerusalem,and help many many others to finish up there too.

    The Calvinist POT (and brass neck) and the Adventist KETTLE :

    I’ve heard Steve is an Adventist .If anyone wants to learn about Adventists,this talk may serve to help change/question one’s thinking.

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/878?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dseventh%26x%3D32%26y%3D15

    To call Adventiists a ‘cult’ may be very thin ice (I do not know enough about Adventists to be dismissive,and Adventism is not this thread’s theme,but listen to what Pawson has to say in the talk before making up your own mind.).

    Let it be remembered that many who call Adventism a ‘cult’ do so while calling themselves ‘Calvinists.’ Rather remarkable how Calvinists can dismiss other groups,whilst having no problem sitting at the feet of a man who wanted Michael Servetus put to death. Another reason why ‘Calvinists’ have a hard time acceptiing Adventists is that Calvinists are trigger-happy with the works-righeousness gun. Also,Adventists may have overeacted against predestination ; thing is,predestination is scriptural,but not the Augustinian distorted version.

    I seek out excellent Bible teachers. All are fallible ; each one brings something different to that table. One of the most important things evangelicals need to discover is the Jewish roots of the narrow Way. This is not a new RELIGION ; this is a new COVENANT (with physical Israel !).

    There are an array of words evengelicals use that serve to confuse themselves and others ; ‘Judaism’ and ‘Christianity’ are two words you won’t find in your Bible ; and they two words that perpetuate the ‘new religion’ error.

    I’ll close this post with what I consider to be some of Michael’s key sentences :

    From ‘Revolution In The Church’ by Michael L Brown :

    [Here refering to the words of Martin Luther and others] ‘How could a faith founded on sacrificial love turn into such a monstrous exhibition of bigotry and hate ? The answer is simple : The Church lost sight of its Jewish roots…ignorance turned into arrogance….Rather than seeing Jesus as the One who came to fulfil the faith of Moses and the Prophets,we [i.e. many misinformed Evangelicals] see Him primarily as the founder of a new religion called Christianity.Yet that is not a biblical concept…’ (Chapter 10 : ‘Have You Read the Epistle of Jacob lately ?’)

    Hear the Adventist talk.

    Oh for a rightly socketed narrow Way cable (and an industrial strength,truly trinitarian dragnet !).

    New religion ? No ! New COVENANT – with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.

  15. This is from the Israel section of the Free Resources page ask askdrbrown.org. (Capitalized emphasis well and truly added !)

    Then the Jewish people see that it is the Gentiles who have Israel’s Messiah, the Gentiles who are enjoying the manifest presence of God, the Gentiles who are walking in the joy of the Lord, THEN Israel will BECOME ENVIOUS. But HAS the Church made Israel envious? (From the book, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

    “More tears” is the urgent need on behalf of the Jewish people and the State of Israel today. “More tears” must flow from the Church’s eyes before tears of repentance, and then tears of joy, will flow from Israel’s eyes. God grant us more tears! (Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

    The salvation of Israel means THE RETURN of Jesus, THE RESURRECTION of the righteous, THE REVIVAL of the Church and the restoration of the earth. (Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

    Go there ; scroll down ; hear the audio talk ‘Why Israel’s Salvation Matters.’

    In Michael’s understanding,the salvation of Israel paves the way for Messiah’s return. This is no side issue.I think Michael’s onto something ; he’s retrieved something long swept under the evangelical (new religion) rug.

    http://askdrbrown.org/resources/free-resources/israel-resources

  16. When does someone cease being a Jew in the nationalistic sense? I would hardly call many people today Jews whom claim to be of Jewish decent. I’m not trying to be crass, but if there is a Jew who has only married Europeans for generation upon generation to the point that their Jewish features have been lost, does that still make them Jewish? What if they marry an Arab? Or is a Jew someone who dwells in Israel? I’m confused by that as well, because Israel was not reinstated as a nation until 1948….. Please bring clarity to this for me!

  17. David believes it is ‘an offense to the Gospel’ when Jew and Gentile disciples worship separately (What happened to ‘one new man’ in Messiah ?! Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6) ; he’s not wrong (same can be said of a disgraceful situation where Gentile disciples of different skin color worship separately ; that is,if such color-discriminating folk can even be called disciples of Messiah Jesus ?!)

    Pawson sees Rome as the doctrinal BIRTHPLACE of Replacement Theology. As already said in an earlier post,how ironic it is that Calvinists adore Romans. Perhaps one might say that the uninspired chapter and verses actually hold the ‘Calvinist’ veil in place (the veil preventing them from reading Romans properly and objectively).

    David is a verbal-SCULPTOR ; he spends a lot of time crafting his speeches into the most helpful,edifying form he can.) Without wishing to be disrespectful,I think it’s not far off the truth to say that a day listening to David Pawson,is likely to edify a typical evangelical more,than what they normally get from a few passive,disenfranchised,decommissioned months (or years ?!) in the Sunday-bleachers (!).

    I once read a very insightful book on reading books (!) ; I came to realise it is NOT enough to speak with accuracy,the words must also be digestible. David has the ability to speak with clarity and weight. Furthermore,a talk of David’s is like a set of steps hewn in rock ; steps that escort the listener to a higher level of understanding – step by step,sentence by sentence.

    If one compares knowledge on a subject to a well-built home,David knows how to speak in a way that assembles – brick by brick,sentence by sentence – a duplicate home in the listeners’ minds. On numerous occasions,David has spoken for hours (with only a coffee break here ‘n’ there in between) ; but,such is his skill,the listeners are gripped all the way.

    Michael,this talk on Romans would serve a double purpose,were you to show it to the folks at Concord :

    1) This beautifully crafted overview of Romans would EDIFY them.

    2) It would show them that whilst some teachers rant ‘n’ rave and stride from one side of the stage to the other,the best way to plant information is to speak clearly,simply and in an orderly step-by-step manner (with no entertaining but counterproductive ranting or striding).

    How awful to think that a letter written by Paul to nip ‘Replacement Theology’ in the bud,has actually been used by ‘Calvinists’ to ‘prove’ it ! (A classic illustration of the damage done by uninspired chapter and verse infiltration of God’s Holy Scriptures.)

    So,don a napkin ; and watch this 2-part talk on Romans one and all (approx 40 mins each).

    Part 1

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/107?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

    Part 2

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/106?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

    (Eliyahu,Dave ; you’ll find this talk to be quite superb.)

  18. I’ve finally found Steve’s book among the stacks I’ve not put up on the bookshelves yet. If I can honestly and certainly respectfully critique his book, “End Time Delusion,” I’d have to say it’s classic Seventh Day Adventist beliefs. If I’m at liberty to discuss why he’s wrong about a lot of suppositions he makes together with highly selective and incorrect interpretations of certain Scriptures, I’d like to put my assessment forward. It is, in the end, still a criticism of his beliefs but we’ve weathered exactly that on many forums. Criticism meant to help him see things in the true light of Scripture, not of his person.
    I would say that we’re not at liberty to excise the verses we don’t like and that speak contrary to the erroneous interpretation of New Testament Scripture while leaving out, pretty much the entire First Testament with the exception of parts of Daniel, a spattering of Ezekiel, and mix them together with the book of the Revelation and call it done.

    I would very much like to bring Steve to the truth of “Israel” in Scripture and hopefully a major convergence of unadulterated exegesis as the end result.

    Of course, I think he’s mostly espousing what he was taught and the truth as he sees it at this time, but that doesn’t mean his eyes are glued shut. There’s hope yet!

  19. Dear Dr. Brown,

    This debate was very profound and your answers were very well articulated, clearly explaining the truth of the doctrine.

    Just as there are people who hold onto pseudo-replacement theology, on the flip side, within the Messianic (Hebrew Roots) movement, there are people who adhere to the two house movement, which seems to be equally dangerous in one’s walk with Yeshua.

    One of the foremost proponents of two house movement is Mr. John K. McKee. His website is http://www.tnnonline.net.

    I would like to take this opportunity to inquire if you would be willing to debate Mr. McKee on the two house movement over the radio to clear the controversy and the falsity concerning the two house movement.

    Many blessings and shalom
    In Yeshua’s Holy Name.

    Bijoy.

  20. Thanks Dr. Brown for standing on the side of truth. Steve Wohlberg’s replacement theology position is why most Bible college and seminary training is void of proper foundation.

  21. It was the Apostle Paul who said, “Hardening IN PART has come upon ISREAL untill the fullness of the GENTILS… “. The UNTIL means that God has not yet finished with Isreal as a covernant people. In regard to the impending destruction Jerusalem and the Jewish commenwealth, JESUS said, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles UNTIL the times of the GENTILES is fulfilled. UNTIL means that God has not finished with either JERUSALEM or the Jewish people. As they were not part of the Church, Jesus put them in the covenant context, and in that context they will finally recognize who He is, and what He has done for them, and all humanity.

  22. Hello Dr. Brown

    What were the texts that you considered to be unconditional promises to israel? Why did israel go into captivity? Was there a condition for returning from captivity (if there was one)? I really enjoyed listening to debates, in the sense that you are able to hear different points of views, and study to see if there is any light in either view.

    Thanks

  23. It is so distracting to have so many commercial breaks during a debate. Discussions are often ended abruptly and not finished on the other side of the break. This debate was all over the place. I don’t think Dr. Brown meant to do it, but he often cut off Steve Wohlberg while he was trying to explain or defend his position. Steve was trying to make a distinction between what he believes and what “replacement theology” says. I wish Steve had more time to debate and defend his view.

  24. Nick,

    Our radio show has a total of nine minutes of breaks every hour, and none are more than two minutes. We do our best within that format.

    It’s important, though, that statements are made succinctly in such a setting, and when they’re not, if we’re going to cover any ground, I need to jump in at times and guide the discussion, which I did. With a guest in studio with me, it’s easier to let them know when we need to take a break or change subjects, but I commend Steve for doing his best to be sensitive to these parameters over the phone.

    In point of fact, the final result of Steve’s beliefs is identical to classic replacement theology in terms of how it views Israel and the Jewish people today — and even how it interprets Rom 11:26 — and no amount of discussion can lessen that reality.

    That being said, I would be delighted to debate Steve in an extended face to face format as well so as to more fully cover issues. For the moment, I was more than happy to give him a platform on my show to air his beliefs, despite the fact that I’m convinced he is in serious error.

    Thanks for your comments!

  25. Replacement theology=bogus. Even though Stephen Sizer claimed that you need to read Romans 1-8 and not just Romans 9-11. But again, I looked at the context I don’t see any replacement whatsoever, Only Chapter 3 would mention a so called replacement but that isn’t enough to substantiate replacement theology.

  26. Re: post #82, thanks for taking the time to listen and write! Actually, though, there’s no contradiction or tension in my position at all.

    God uconditionally elected Israel to service, promising to preserve them no matter what, even in judgment and discipline, but he did not unconditionally elect all Jews/Israelites to salvation (any more than he damned all Edomites!). And in His wisdom, He will orchestrate a national turning of the people of Israel at the end of this age, but still not meaning every single Jew in the world and still not guaranteeing what the actual numbers will be of those alive at that time.

    But again, thanks for your thoughtful post!

  27. Dear Dr. Brown,

    Wonderful to hear about the ministry reports in India.

    It will great to have you debate proponent of the Two House Movement also.

    God bless you – Shalom
    Bijoy.

  28. Hi Dr. Brown. I am trying to understand a point you made in the debate. Steve referenced Peters quotation in 1 Peter 2:9-10 from Exodus 19:6 and you said something like the Church can make spiritual application of these promises but it does not nullify who the promise was originally to (physical Israel). Do I understand that correctly? I believe Ezekiel 36:26 is something I have experienced (a new heart) as you have, so are you saying we can use this Scripture as long as we don’t negate that it was originally promised to Israel and will come to pass? Does it have a dual application? As a Christian reading the Old Testament today, how am I supposed to know which parts of it I can apply, identify with, or count as a promise and which parts I should not? Respectfully, Jeff.

  29. My dictionary defines Israel as meaning a name, Jacob, ancient land of the Hebrews, a kingdom in the north part of that region, a country established in 1948, the Jewish people as decendents of Jacob, or any group of Christians
    as chosen by God.

    It seems to me that God replaced the Old Covenant with the New, leaving the Old for us to learn many things from, even things about the New, and that he replaced promises to a particular group of people, with many (if not all) of the same promises to a larger group of people because of the work of Christ which he did on this earth in his own physical body.

    As far as any people being replaced, I believe God may cut some off and graft others into his purposes in Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

  30. Dr. Brown,

    Steve came on your radio program to debate. Would you do the same with him on his program if he has one where this debate could continue, where he is the one to choose breaks or when it’s time to discuss another matter?

  31. Dr. Brown, I remember the scripture teaches us to be subject to one another. I was also thinking at the time I asked the above question, about how I had heard a man say that if someone is in control of a conversation because it’s his program that one will not “win”. Yet I wonder what it is to win. One way or another the truth will prevail and if we abide in Christ, we will win.

  32. Reply to Michael Brown #83

    I agree totally that God chose (before the world began) only a remnant of Jews (a small group). Big group, small group, the logic remains the same: God sovereignly elects a group to salvation, but then why not an individual?

    Here is what I wrote:

    It seems bizarre that any Arminian (Michael Brown in this instance), for whom the individual’s ability to choose Christ is sacrosanct (the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and so does not resist the wishes of the human heart), should believe in the (divine unilateral) blanket election of an amorphous group (Israel) but not in the election of individuals. God, of course, Brown might retort, does not have his eye on the entire “apple of his eye” (“whoever touches you [Israel] touches the apple of his eye” – Zecharia 2:8), but only on a thinnish slice, that is, on particular individuals; those particular Jews (comprising 1. those who join the Church and 2. the unbelieving remnant) whom the Father has given together with particular Gentiles to the Son before the world began.

  33. Dear Dr. Brown

    From my study of the bible the literal nation was chosen because of Abrahams faith and obedience to the law of God. See Genesis 26:1-5 In exodus 19:1-6 lets us know that obedience to the voice of God was the condition of being an holy nation. Faith in Christ and obendience is the condition of also an individual entering into the holy city, including a jew. See Romans 2:25, and Revelation 22:14

    At any rate these are just a few of my thoughts. Your response on #83 concerning some jews being elected… were you suggesting that some jews are predestined to be saved? Also, the texts below seem to suggest that God would repent of the good that he would benefit israel if they did not turn from their evil ways. God’s repentance is different from man’s repentance. Man’s repentance suggest a change of mind while God’s repentance is simply a change in relations and circumstances.

    Jeremiah

    18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
    18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
    18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
    18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
    18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
    18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
    18:7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
    18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    18:9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
    18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
    18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

    Calvin

  34. I hope this works. Thanks Clay!

    Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

    I’ve been thinking a lot lately on the modern state of Israel and whether or not it’s in fulfillment of prophesy that the Jews are back in the land that God gave to Abraham and his descendants. I hear many that believe Israel’s being “born in one day” has nothing to do with any prophesies. After researching Scripture again I don’t understand how we can both be reading the same Bible and come away with a completely opposite understanding of the matter. Scripture seems really clear to me that the Jews returning, their being gathered back to the land of Israel after over 2,000 years is the single most profound piece of end times prophesy we have. In my mind we may as well turn the hourglass on it’s head because we can begin looking up for our salvation is near.

    Isa 54:1 “Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the LORD.

    Isa 54:2 “Enlarge the place of your tent, and let the curtains of your habitations be stretched out; do not hold back; lengthen your cords and strengthen your stakes.

    Isa 54:3 For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left, and your offspring will possess the nations and will people the desolate cities.

    Isa 54:4 “Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

    Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.

    Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God.

    Isa 54:7 For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you.

    Isa 54:8 In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, (Isa 8:17) but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

    The Church was never “deserted” and “grieved in spirit” as a “wife (Jer 3:14) that was cast off” (Isa 8:17, Isa 49:21, Hosea 2, etc.). There is no promise in the New Testament Scriptures that I can see, saying anything to the effect of us (those of the Church) and our “offspring” “possessing the nations” or peopling the “desolate cities.” We won’t have any offspring as we will already have our resurrection bodies (Luk 20:35, 1Th 4:16, Mat 24:30-31, 1Cr 15:52, etc.). Those who survive “The Day of the Lord” in all the nations will still be living and most likely procreating for a thousand years under the reign of Messiah (Isa. 65) and they will come to Israel for the feast days (Isa. 2:4, Isa. 54:3, Isa 49:14-26, Isa. 65:17-25, Psa 92:12-14, Zech. 14:16-19). The nations who gather against the Lord and against His holy city will bow down, not only to Him, but to the remnant of the Israelites is what the prophets say. That’s a lot to take up right now but Scripture sounds really clear to me that the Jews will yet hold sway over their very real and spiritual enemies.

    The Lord certainly never looked upon us in His Church with “overflowing anger” (Isa. 54:8) and neither did He ever “hide His face” from us. This must be literal Israel, those who will yet be humbled, who will turn to the Lord at the last and that He will have compassion on. (Isa 54:8, Zeph. 3:9-20)

    The Church hasn’t been “driven away” by the Lord as Scripture says Israel was. We (the Gentiles) were never given the same promises as Abraham’s physical descendants. The members of the Church inherited the spiritual blessings of Abraham, the spiritual blessings brought about by the righteous seed, the Messiah. The fulfillment of the spititual blessings given to people of all nations don’t annul the blessings of mercy and grace promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, those of the circumcision, those given the land grant by covenant.

    Isa 54:9 “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you.

    Isa 54:10 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

    Isa 54:11 “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires.

    Isa 54:12 I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones.

    Isa 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.

    Isa 54:14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you.

    Isa 54:15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

    Isa 54:17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their vindication from me, declares the LORD.”

    Jerusalem hasn’t yet experienced the peace spoken of and neither has it been established as the highest of the mountains, the city from where Messiah will rule for a thousand years. His feet have yet to touch down opposite the temple mount and He’s not meted out vengeance and recompense for the “controversy of Zion.” How can any of those prophesies apply to the Church as being Israel? It’s like saying that the people of India are interchangeable with the people of China and the English are equivalent to the Latinos. I understand the spiritual implications of salvation being through Messiah only, whether Jew or Gentile, but you can only maintain the Church as Israel if you negate many of the future prophesies in the FT concerning “Israel” as they just don’t fit the Body of Christ. Some can be applied to the Church but so many of the verses the Adventists and Preterists claim cannot be applied at all. I know I’ve had the conversation about prophecy with others before and I wish I’d saved all my posts to documents because I’d love to keep from typing it all out again! Oh well I’ll do what I can.

    God set boundaries for all nations and Israel is one of them; and not just anyone of them but a very specific one of them.

    ESV – Deu 32:8-9
    When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders* of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.*
    Footnotes:
    * Or territories
    * Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text sons of Israel
    Deu 32:9 For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

    So, whether it’s sons of God or sons of Israel doesn’t matter as the focus is that the Most High “divided” us up. He put the Chinese in China, the Egyptians were in Egypt and the Indians in India and so forth and so on. Israel belongs to the LORD as all the nations do and He can do what He pleases with what He has created. It seems to me that those left alive and those who will be as the angels having their resurrected bodies when the Lord returns, will stay right where they are with the exception of the feast days. Scripture says as much.

    Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

    Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

    Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; [fn] there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

    Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

    The Lord made the earth to be inhabited and it will stay that way into eternity is what Scripture says. The thousand year reign of Messiah is literal and the NT says we are to reign with him. Who are we reigning over if there’s no people?

    Micah tells us that everyone will sit under his own vine and his own fig tree. The Church has never been referred to as the “fig tree” although “vine” is possible, I think, in the instance of the Church but never the fig tree. I tend to believe that each nation will inhabit the area of land where they are when the Lord returns to reign–from Jerusalem–the captial of Israel–the place where He placed His Name forever–the land of His inheritance, etc.! I hardly think Hamas and Hezbollah, nor Al Qaida are the people the prophets are speaking of once more inhabiting the land of Israel, unless they repent at the last, otherwise they’re of those who “go down to the pit with the uncircumcised” when he renders judgment and justice to those who spoil Israel, Jerusalem and the members of His Church.

    Mic 4:1 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it,

    Mic 4:2 and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, [fn] and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    Mic 4:3 He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

    Mic 4:4 but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

    Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

    Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

    Isa 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

    Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

    Hsa 2:18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

    Zec 9:10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace to the nations; his rule shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Psa 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish, and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

    Isa 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; instead of wood, bronze, instead of stones, iron. I will make your overseers peace and your taskmasters righteousness.

    Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.

    Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

    We’ve not yet experienced anything even remotely akin to peace of that magnitude. It’s yet future. The saints of the Church will be “overseers” who reign with Him as in vs. 17 and they would be those who are in the Body of Christ who will be given a job to do, no doubt. But as far as we know the laws of the universe are still in effect and we’ve not been to the depths of the ocean’s floors as of today. : > ) That says to me that the Lord’s promises to Abraham’s descendants are still in effect.

    ESV – Jer 31:35 –
    Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD of hosts is his name:

    Jer 31:36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”

    Jer 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.”

    Jer 33:20 “Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,

    Jer 33:21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.

    Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

    Jer 33:23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:

    Jer 33:24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

    Jer 33:25 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth,

    Jer 33:26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”

    Rom 11:26 (ESV) — And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    It seems clear that there is still, to this day, a literal Israel (of the flesh, if you will), who will yet cry out to Messiah, Jesus, and then the Millenium will begin when He returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye! A bittersweet day I think. Too many lost souls!

  35. I hope this works. Thanks Clay!

    Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

    I’ve been thinking a lot lately on the modern state of Israel and whether or not it’s in fulfillment of prophesy that the Jews are back in the land that God gave to Abraham and his descendants. I hear many that believe Israel’s being “born in one day” has nothing to do with any prophesies. After researching Scripture again I don’t understand how we can both be reading the same Bible and come away with a completely opposite understanding of the matter. Scripture seems really clear to me that the Jews returning, their being gathered back to the land of Israel after over 2,000 years is the single most profound piece of end times prophesy we have. In my mind we may as well turn the hourglass on it’s head because we can begin looking up for our salvation is near.

    Isa 54:1 “Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the LORD.

    Isa 54:2 “Enlarge the place of your tent, and let the curtains of your habitations be stretched out; do not hold back; lengthen your cords and strengthen your stakes.

    Isa 54:3 For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left, and your offspring will possess the nations and will people the desolate cities.

    Isa 54:4 “Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

    Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.

    Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God.

    Isa 54:7 For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you.

    Isa 54:8 In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, (Isa 8:17) but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

    The Church was never “deserted” and “grieved in spirit” as a “wife (Jer 3:14) that was cast off” (Isa 8:17, Isa 49:21, Hosea 2, etc.). We’ve never been “widowed” at any time. There is no promise in the New Testament Scriptures that I can see, saying anything to the effect of us (those of the Church) and our “offspring” “possessing the nations” or peopling the “desolate cities.” We won’t have any offspring as we will already have our resurrection bodies (Luk 20:35, 1Th 4:16, Mat 24:30-31, 1Cr 15:52, etc.). Those who survive “The Day of the Lord” in all the nations will still be living and most likely procreating for a thousand years under the reign of Messiah (Isa. 65) and they will come to Israel for the feast days (Isa. 2:4, Isa. 54:3, Isa 49:14-26, Isa. 65:17-25, Psa 92:12-14, Zech. 14:16-19). The nations who gather against the Lord and against His holy city will bow down, not only to Him, but to the remnant of the Israelites is what the prophets say. That’s a lot to take up right now but Scripture sounds really clear to me that the Jews will yet hold sway over their very real and spiritual enemies.

    The Lord certainly never looked upon us in His Church with “overflowing anger” (Isa. 54:8) and neither did He ever “hide His face” from us. This must be literal Israel, those who will yet be humbled, who will turn to the Lord at the last and that He will have compassion on. (Isa 54:8, Zeph. 3:9-20)

    The Church hasn’t been “driven away” by the Lord as Scripture says Israel was. We (the Gentiles) were never given the same promises as Abraham’s physical descendants. The members of the Church inherited the spiritual blessings of Abraham, the spiritual blessings brought about by the righteous seed, the Messiah. The fulfillment of the spititual blessings given to people of all nations don’t annul the blessings of mercy and grace promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, those of the circumcision, those given the land grant by covenant.

    Isa 54:9 “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you.

    Isa 54:10 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

    Isa 54:11 “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires.

    Isa 54:12 I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones.

    Isa 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.

    Isa 54:14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you.

    Isa 54:15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

    Isa 54:17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their vindication from me, declares the LORD.”

    Jerusalem hasn’t yet experienced the peace spoken of and neither has it been established as the highest of the mountains, the city from where Messiah will rule for a thousand years. His feet have yet to touch down opposite the temple mount and He’s not meted out vengeance and recompense for the “controversy of Zion.” How can any of those prophesies apply to the Church as being Israel? It’s like saying that the people of India are interchangeable with the people of China and the English are equivalent to the Latinos. I understand the spiritual implications of salvation being through Messiah only, whether Jew or Gentile, but you can only maintain the Church as Israel if you negate many of the future prophesies in the FT concerning “Israel” as they just don’t fit the Body of Christ. Some can be applied to the Church but so many of the verses the Adventists and Preterists claim cannot be applied at all. I know I’ve had the conversation about prophecy with others before and I wish I’d saved all my posts to documents because I’d love to keep from typing it all out again! Oh well I’ll do what I can.

    God set boundaries for all nations and Israel is one of them; and not just anyone of them but a very specific one of them.

    ESV – Deu 32:8-9
    When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders* of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.*
    Footnotes:
    * Or territories
    * Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text sons of Israel
    Deu 32:9 For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

    So, whether it’s sons of God or sons of Israel doesn’t matter as the focus is that the Most High “divided” us up. He put the Chinese in China, the Egyptians were in Egypt and the Indians in India and so forth and so on. Israel belongs to the LORD as all the nations do and He can do what He pleases with what He has created. It seems to me that those left alive and those who will be as the angels having their resurrected bodies when the Lord returns, will stay right where they are with the exception of the feast days. Scripture says as much.

    Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

    Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

    Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; [fn] there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

    Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

    The Lord made the earth to be inhabited and it will stay that way into eternity is what Scripture says. The thousand year reign of Messiah is literal and the NT says we are to reign with him. Who are we reigning over if there’s no people?

    Micah tells us that everyone will sit under his own vine and his own fig tree. The Church has never been referred to as the “fig tree” although “vine” is possible, I think, in the instance of the Church but never the fig tree. I tend to believe that each nation will inhabit the area of land where they are when the Lord returns to reign–from Jerusalem–the captial of Israel–the place where He placed His Name forever–the land of His inheritance, etc.! I hardly think Hamas and Hezbollah, nor Al Qaida are the people the prophets are speaking of once more inhabiting the land of Israel, unless they repent at the last, otherwise they’re of those who “go down to the pit with the uncircumcised” when he renders judgment and justice to those who spoil Israel, Jerusalem and the members of His Church.

    Mic 4:1 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it,

    Mic 4:2 and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, [fn] and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    Mic 4:3 He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

    Mic 4:4 but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

    Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

    Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

    Isa 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

    Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

    Hsa 2:18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

    Zec 9:10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace to the nations; his rule shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Psa 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish, and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

    Isa 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; instead of wood, bronze, instead of stones, iron. I will make your overseers peace and your taskmasters righteousness.

    Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.

    Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

    We’ve not yet experienced anything even remotely akin to peace of that magnitude. It’s yet future. The saints of the Church will be “overseers” who reign with Him as in vs. 17 and they would be those who are in the Body of Christ who will be given a job to do, no doubt. But as far as we know the laws of the universe are still in effect and we’ve not been to the depths of the ocean’s floors as of today. : > ) That says to me that the Lord’s promises to Abraham’s descendants are still in effect.

    ESV – Jer 31:35 –
    Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD of hosts is his name:

    Jer 31:36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”

    Jer 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.”

    Jer 33:20 “Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,

    Jer 33:21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.

    Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

    Jer 33:23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:

    Jer 33:24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

    Jer 33:25 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth,

    Jer 33:26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”

    Rom 11:26 (ESV) — And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    The Church is never referred to as Jacob either. It seems clear that there is still, to this day, a literal Israel (of the flesh, if you will), who will yet cry out to Messiah, Jesus, and when He returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye then the Millenium will begin! A bittersweet day I think. Too many lost souls!

  36. Oops, sorry about that. I see my posts are once more going through. I was in with the spam and about to give up. 🙂

  37. Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

    There are verses in Scripture that certainly are speaking of the Spiritual descendants of Messiah as His offspring. I’m not arguing that. What I’ve come to understand is that if we write literal Israel out of the picture we’d have to do away with Romans 9-11 because Paul gets down to the nitty-gritty concerning those Jews yet to be established through the Lord’s compassion, mercy and grace. “He will have mercy on whom He will.” He will establish a remnant from the house of Israel as He promised He would. We hear all the prophets saying the same thing. The Lord will have a remnant of “the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” gathered back from the nations regardless of “all they’ve done.” The city of Jerusalem is promised to be rescued as well.

    Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

    Isa 11:12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    We see the Lord extending His hand “a second time” to recover the remnant scattered to the four corners of the earth just as they were in the days of the Gospel. James wrote greetings “to the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad” (Jam 1:1) as he was a disciple to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. (Gal 2:9) They were still considered scattered in the days of Jesus. They probably made pilgrimage for the major feast days as the Torah required but they were living outside of the land of Israel, being still dispersed.

    Psa 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

    Psa 102:14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.

    Psa 102:15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

    Psa 102:16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

    Zion is the City of David but came to be synonymous with Jerusalem. As far as I can tell, Jerusalem is said to be the daughter of Zion and visa versa. I understand and see where the New Jerusalem is lowered from heaven to earth at the end of the Millennium but I don’t see any reason for all of the Church to live in the land of Israel, let alone one city during the 1000 year reign of Messiah. Zion is the city of the Great King and the place from where Messiah will reign. There is much said in the FT about Zion that has nothing to do with the Church.

    2Ki 19:30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

    2Ki 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.

    2Ki 19:32 “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there, or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it.

    2Ki 19:33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD.

    2Ki 19:34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”

    Psa 129:5 Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.

    There’s good information about Zion /Jerusalem at this website: http://www.letusreason.org/Juda12.htm

    The thing is is that Zion is where the Lord has placed His Name–FOREVER! People are up in arms over who will gain Jerusalem as their capitol and I can tell you it belongs to the LORD and His Messiah and the Jews will again live there with no threat from their neighbors and nothing unclean, no one who denies the Father and the Son, will pass through it again! “When the Lord builds up Zion He shall appear in His Glory.”— Psa 102:16

    The Lord our Righteousness

    The Lord alone is Righteous and works for His Name’s sake. It was never because of Israel’s righteousness that He worked but for His own righteousness sake that His Name be not profained among the people of the nations. Neither is it because of our righteousness that we are saved. It is by the Grace of God and so it is with the remnant of Israel. The Lord will not forget his covenant nor remove His mercy when they cry out to Him–which I believe they will when “the time of Jacob’s trouble” is in full swing. Pray that it may be cut very short for them and all of us and that they may all be saved! Because until the Jews cry out to Messiah, Jesus, we’ll all be in a world of trouble praying for the Lord to return!

    Deu 9:5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD gave to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

    Deu 9:6 “Know, therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people.

    2Ki 19:32 “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there, or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it.

    2Ki 19:33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD.

    2Ki 19:34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”

    2Ki 19:35 And that night the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

    Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people; help me when you save them,

    Psa 106:5 that I may look upon the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may rejoice in the gladness of your nation, that I may glory with your inheritance.

    Psa 106:6 Both we and our fathers have sinned; we have committed iniquity; we have done wickedness.

    Psa 106:7 Our fathers, when they were in Egypt, did not consider your wondrous works; they did not remember the abundance of your steadfast love, but rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.

    Psa 106:8 Yet he saved them for his name’s sake, that he might make known his mighty power.

    Psa 106:43 Many times he delivered them, but they were rebellious in their purposes and were brought low through their iniquity.

    Psa 106:44 Nevertheless, he looked upon their distress, when he heard their cry.

    Psa 106:45 For their sake he remembered his covenant, and relented according to the abundance of his steadfast love.

    Psa 106:46 He caused them to be pitied by all those who held them captive.

    Psa 106:47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise.

    Psa 106:48 Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! And let all the people say, “Amen!” Praise the LORD!

    Eze 36:22 –
    “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

    Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

    It is never for our righteousness that the Lord acts for us it is always and only for His righteousness sake. All of Eze. chapter 36 explains the righteousness of the Lord, GOD in bringing to pass all that He has promised. There will be no loose ends when the Lord reigns from Zion.

    There are entire chapters that outline the past, present and future condition of the Israelites. Isaiah 11 lays it out even into the millenium just as isa 65 does. There are entirely too many prophecies that have not been wholly fulfilled and neither do they apply to the Church because none of them would make any sense. I think it’s a very distorted view to try to force the Church into too many First Testament Scriptures. In fact, we shouldn’t try to force too much into the book of the Revelation either. Gentiles are not Jews, the Church is not Israel and the Jews are not a Gentile nation when interpreting FT prophecies concerning literal Israel. In the Revelation, Israel is still Israel and they’re living through the tribulation with us, through the time of Jacob’s trouble from which a remnant will be saved. Some prophecies can apply to both Israel and the Church but I don’t think it’s good for the members of the Church to be as self-centered and proud and we’ve become. It’s not all about us. God has a grand plan and we should be happy with our portion in the Body of Messiah is what I think–the gentiles were grafted in by the Grace of God and there’s no reason why He can’t choose to be gracious in the end to the House of Israel. Scripture says He will be.

    There are also many prophesies concerning literal Israel that never found their completion in the time they were written. Some things weren’t completely fulfilled as spoken by the prophets. Many prophecies are parallels of future fulfillment when the Israelites will be gathered from the four corners of the earth back to Israel, which we know is happening now in our lifetime. The Jews of Ethiopia, Russia and America, to name a few, are returning to the land of Israel and they’re being received just as the prophets said they would be. We shouldn’t demand exact phraseology when looking to future prophesies. The hyperbolic and estatic language style of the prophets makes sense to me as I can’t imagine having the Spirit come over me with images of things to come and with messages from God! It’s enough to be privy to those things that are coming on the earth so that we may trim our lamps and be always ready for the Bridgegroom!

  38. Jesuschrist is merciful. Israel are his children the saved gentiles were taken as children also. The main idea here is God is Allmighty. He told Moses get of the way Im going to destroy these people they are a desobedient nation and i im going to give you a new one. Moses said no Lord, dont do that. You took them from Egypt to destroy them in the desert. What about your name. And God hold his anger. You know God is Allmighty. He is going to save the Israel of the last days. Thats his promise. Israel is the Countdown(testimony) of God for the whole world that do not believe in Jesus. The Church is the Testimony for the jews and gentiles who would believe in Christ via the gospel. At the end the spiritual Israel (the Church) and (phisical) Israel will become one body. For the world if you want to see Jesus watch the church if the world want to see God watch Israel(phisical). By the way the only people that have a promise at the end is the Phisical Israel. The church would not be here. Think about these: The misteries belong to God “Jesuschrist”, the rebeletions belong to man. Remember church we have the mind of Christ.

  39. Still listening…and this may have been addressed in the last part of the debate (and obviously it is too large to be fully addressed in a single radio debate), but isn’t it the case that even Jesus said that (at LEAST the THEN non-scattered) Israel lost something significant by their refusal to receive Christ? Matthew 21:42,43 has Jesus saying that The Kingdom “will be” taken from “them” (leaving who that is for a moment) and given to a “nation” bearing the fruit thereof. So conditional on bearing fruit, the Kingdom (this needs more definition, admittedly) is being taken away from one people (however broad that needs to be) and given to a “nation” bearing the fruit thereof. From one people to another? From one people to another? From a specific group to a totally different group in another nation?

    Later on in that passage (v45), the religious leaders of Jesus day realized it was “them” He was speaking of. Just the leaders? Or them AND those they were leading into perdition? Jesus’ weeping over Jerusalem seems to indicate it was more than just the leaders that lost “the Kingdom” (again, whatever that is defined as).

    So if the promise is to Abraham and his seed (as was quoted by Mr. Wohlberg), doesn’t Jesus’ declaration imply that the only fulfillment of the promise to Abraham will be in Christ? How else can anyone (nation, individual or group) bring forth good fruit?

    Not entirely unrelated are the controversial words in in the letters to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia concerning those who say they are Jews and are not, in fact, Jews. Is this God’s condemnation of those who claim a physical lineage in error (whether intentionally or not)? Or is it, rather (as the charge of blasphemy in Rev 2:9 seems to imply) the leveling of a spiritual charge of false brethren? Paul’s declaration that a Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew seems to say that this is a spiritual term. Otherwise, what do we make of there being no Greek or Jew in Christ (Galatians 3:28)? Not that there is no use for such a distinction generally, but that spiritually it is not Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers. There is no difference between the two. That being the case, the only important eternal distinction (which the letters to the churches seem clearly to be concerned with) is the spiritual.

    While I don’t admit to having a full and rigorous final answer to this difficult issue, it seems to me that there is merit to Mr. Wohlberg’s position. That it may have been used (or variants of it) to justify genocide, murder, torture, slavery etc… is less a testimony to the doctrine, I think, than the depravity of man. The Jews delivered Christ to be crucified in favor of Barabbus. Peter laid guilt for this at the feet of the religious rulers. But any true believer in Christ doesn’t have the first thought of using this as an excuse for persecution. There is no justification for that. But the unregenerate will try to justify itself with anything he can get ahold of. It’s not necessarily the fault of the doctrine, but the doctrinaire.

    Again…interested in thoughts and responses as I won’t pretend I’ve fully addressed the matter – just that I haven’t heard this part of it dealt with.

  40. Regarding Rev 2:9, Jesus responds to the Pharisees (who make the lineage claim of being Abraham’s children) rather aggressively – saying they are the children of the devil. Not because of physical lineage (though some have tried, crudely, to make that ridiculous assertion) but because of spiritual association. So if Jesus’ emphasis was clearly spiritual, then that should at least carry to the declaration in Matthew 21. And if that is the case, then at the very least, we have to assert that the Revelation of Jesus Christ deals with that same Kingdom (given to his servants).

    So while I would have to agree that there are physical promises made to physical Israel that will be (or have been?) fulfilled, I think his assertion that Revelation deals with spiritual Israel is worth examination.

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