The Israel Debate

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Dr. Brown debates Steve Wohlberg on the meaning of Israel in the New Testament. Does it refer to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or does it refer to a spiritual entity only? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God is utterly trustworthy and He who promised to scatter Israel to the nations is the same God who has re-gathered Israel from the nations and who will bring Jewish people to repentance and faith in Jesus the Messiah.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus will not return until a Jewish Jerusalem welcomes Him back.  God will keep His people, God will restore Jerusalem, and God will restore Israel!

 

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103 Comments
  1. I hope I have a chance to hear this one. I have a busy day today. This is a subject I have been dealing with as of late. Any help would be appreciated. This should be another good one. Blessings

  2. James,get yourself tse two :

    http://www.amazon.com/Our-Hands-Are-Stained-Blood/dp/1560430680/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    (Michael,for some reason,paperback of your book is cheaper than Kindle ; can u check that out ?)

    http://www.amazon.com/Defending-Christian-Zionism-ebook/dp/B0052AUCY2/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    Some say the promise was to Abraham and his Seed ; it sure was. Thing is,that was in regard to the Abrahamic Covenant,not the Messianic !

    The Messianic (New,Better,Second) Covenant is with the same people (plural !) God made the Old, First,one : the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.

    James,when it comes to Israelology,those two will give your mental muscles an industrial-strength workout.

  3. No doubt this will be the most enlighten interview of the Kingdom of God. Sad to say that this interview is being done by an American Christianity understanding and propaganda. This is the reason why America is being judged…In reference to this interview, the fact that you have to pay on the internet, to listen LIVE, tell us a lot, of the position of the producer. I’m sorry Brother Brown, you need to see the REAL HOLY Spirit of JESUS. And if the present Israel is the Israel you are talking and defending, which is Anti-Christ to JESUS. This is why Christianity will never fulfill the great commission. God’s Kingdom is not about your advances or Israel or even mine. It’s all about JESUS. But as long as there are people to listen to the world sensations on the radio, people will continue to be lost and swayed by Theologians and every other doctrine invented by man. This will continue. REPENT and turn from your ways, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

  4. Mark,

    Is not the “Abrahamic Covenant” the prophesied messianic covenant of faith? Didn’t Jesus say to his law abiding people your father is the devil…in other words HE was the “Seed”, the firstborn of the new creation which all who believe in him are adopted into? Clearly there is no salvation outside of Jesus. Clearly God has a plan for ALL nations, that Christ would be “all in all” and of course Israel is special to God, as all people are, but a lot of “Christian Zionism”(especially political/military perspectives) doesn’t set too well with me. While the bible I believe is clear he will end up this age with Israel as a large part of the equation, especially as described in Revelation, Paul is quite clear on the new creation, being no greek or jew…having nothing to do with nationality or race.

    First the natural than the spiritual. This doesn’t throw out God’s special purpose for Israel as a nation, but it also doesn’t elevate them above any other nation. Before the fall there was no Jewish people. God shows no favoritism, he is not a racist.

    I understand and am deeply offended by how the Jewish people have been treated but to think God is going to deal with them in any other manner than the way he deals with all men, through the blood of Christ, is wrong. I believe we should pray for them and their salvation. I don’t believe we are to blindly stand behind them concerning their political and military policies claiming we will be blessed. WE, as believers in Messiah, are a “royal and holy priesthood”. Even Peter, one of the apostles rebuked by Paul for their natural-mindedness concerning Christ and faith realized this reality.

    WIll not be able to listen to show til later….

    For clarity, I am not a full on replacement theology guy. But truth be told, if Paul was preaching today he would be accused of being one!

    Mark, if you respond, I respectfully ask that you don’t refer me to a third party book or article. Pull out the scriptures and go from there.

  5. Ray,

    I think you may have some valid points and would like to hear them. Although I am not interested in telling anyone to repent as I’m still searching out truth and knowing truth is more important to me than correcting someone.

    Could you elaborate scripturally some of your points? Specifically the anti-christ point you brought up. I believe we can clearly see the spirit of anti-christ in the Jewish people of Jesus’ day…Paul also said this spirit was at work in his day….

    It seems to me what many have been dubbing the “religious spirit” is simply this anti-christ spirit. Setting itself up in God’s temple(people)….that if possible even the elect could be deceived.

    One thing I really am agreement with you on is it all being about Jesus. It was always about him, he wasn’t just an afterthought once God “realized” the law couldn’t save us…he was the lamb slain “BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!”

  6. Dave,

    Actually, the truth is quite the opposite of what you write re: Paul. It looks like you are offended at what he explicitly wrote in Rom 11:25-29! That’s why he gave such strong warnings to Gentile believers re: God’s unbreakable promises to Israel.

  7. Dr. Brown,

    Thanks for responding. But I can say with sincerity of heart I’m am not offended at what Paul wrote. I am not sure what I wrote to get that response from you. Would it not make more sense that since Paul spent much more time establishing the reality of what Israel’s prophets and law pointed to, Jesus, that this one small portion scripture would more accurately be assessed?…if not by the reality of sheer amount of his writings alone given to each subject? Does it not bear weight that Paul only wrote this in one of his letters and with such few words?

    While I understand internet communication can easily be misconstrued is it fair to say I am offended by God’s restoration of Israel by anything I wrote? I’m am not offended that you came to a conclusion as to where my heart is at concerning Israel nor at what Paul said but this only seems(and I emphasize seems) to strengthen my case at the knee-jerk reaction concerning Israel that is out there in many movements today. I can assure you I am diligently seeking the Lord on the matter and have literally, in prayer, invited him to offend me if necessary so I may know Him and his truth better…this goes with all biblical subjects, not just Israel.

    That said, I love Israel and am very grateful for them in the sense of feeling a sense of honor and respect towards them but is it not true that God’s intent was always the new creation man? With the old, natural, Adamic ways put behind us? The reality that is Christ in us, all things new? Where race and nationality no longer divide and separate us?

    What about God’s judgment? I know you believe(and I would agree) that God’s judgment is still a reality. What if God was chastening Israel for their continued refusal to not accept His son by the way he has regularly disciplined them, with war and capitivity? Would we be righteous in aligning with them politically and militarily? If it was God’s redemptive discipline?

    These are sincere questions I have. I’m not looking for a doctrine to agree with whether it be “replacement theology” or “Christian Zionism”. I’m looking for truth…which is obviously a life long quest.

    Thanks again for responding.

  8. Dave:
    As for the Truth, that you are searching, can only be found in JESUS. I too was Jewish and blinded by searching truth thru my understanding or interpretation of others(Schools). True repentance must come first, so that Jesus open your heart & eyes and shows you HIS Truth. You must die at Calvary yourself.

    Please, know this, I will not support endorse or even consider picking up a stone against any religion, race or people, for I myself I’m a sinner. But I do know this, he can raise anyone from the dead. Physically & Spiritually).

    Jesus Rescued me and he is something personal and goes in contrary against man understanding of scriptures. There is a lot more than what we can see and read. God’s chosen people, was always based in faith, TRUST..

    He always keep a rem anent.FAITH, TRUST and complete submission to the HOLY SPIRIT is and always has been a requirement to be a true son of God.

    Jesus did it and He did not have a place to live or even a purse to count his money. A true Israelite who walked among us as our Teacher and example. (A regeneration, re-creation-Cor 5:17)

    Due to our stubbornness, we keep molding God to our desires, instead of letting him molds us. Definite, America has molded their own god by slapping a Christian label..on all that we do. But make no mistake, Our King is HOLY, as we are to be holy.(not when he comes, NOW, that’s the race)

    That means you live a different way from the rest of the world. And I don’t mean what we see today in the circles.

    He gave us a law to obey. And it’s not to murder or even go out and by guns for self defense.

    Know that The road is narrow, and few will find it. That’s terrifying !! He is not speaking of those that confess him or the rest are going to Hell… No
    What he is saying that those among him who claim to be saved….are not saved.

    The Anti-Christ spirit is not only in our Jewish people but also in Christianity.

    What has it cost you? And based on my eyes, mainstream Christianity has cost only to market items in the name of Christ. Sadly, once again this is American Christianity.

    The normal evangelical in America, is just about wrong on everything. (Refer to the sermon on the mount.) We must walk in a path that it is so narrow, that your shoulders have to turn sideways and your back..is against the wall. As high as you can see that’s narrow. That’s True Christianity. Let me ask you this. How much of your life or anyone is defined by the word of God? Think about it…. Blessings.

  9. What an absolutely amazing debate. I found it powerful and extremely interesting.

    I would love to hear a part 2! I felt like this was in the same spirit of the debate Dr. Brown had with Dr. James White on Calvinism, which shed light without demonizing.

    Ultimately I agree with Dr. Brown’s position here, but Steve did a good job trying to demonstrate his view here. Great interaction, very beneficial and fruitful.

    God bless.

  10. Dave,

    Thanks for your response too, and thanks for understanding my ability to interact online is limited. May I strongly encourage you to carefully work through the contents of my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? Also, I take strong exception to your assessment of the importance Paul placed on the issue of Israel. First, what we call the Old Testament was his one and only Bible; second, the fact that he took three entire chapters (as we have them divided today) in his most important doctrinal letter to focus on Israel in order to be sure that the believers in Rome understood the importance of this topic is of massive import.

    In any case, I appreciate your heart for God and His truth and I do encourage you to take the time to read through Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

    Grace to you!

  11. Coming from a perspective of the Jewish world in the Jerusalem schools of the concept of “all Israel will be saved” goes back to the earliest most ancient Jewish writings. Pirkei Avot comes to mind but it is all throught the ancient writings including the New Testament letters from Paul. This makes sense since Paul studied under Gamliel the son of Hillel. Even in Pirkei Avot in the Mishnah it clarifies that certain wicked people among the Jewish race would not be saved such as Jezebel etc. To enter into the mind of Paul, I would say that he said this, “all Israel will be saved” in the same meaning his teacher Gamliel said it and how it is said in Pirkei Avot. Is not hermeneutics also identifying how a phrase was used by that generation? Understand Paul as meant to be understood as if he were here now explaining to our generation what he was trying to say in and to his generation. The Spirit of truth is with Dr Brown that is why he does not have to try very hard to win every biblical discussion. His opponent has to claim no unconditional promises from God to allow room for his biblical theory, and failed to address most of the questions by simply moving on to another verse. The truth is easy to defend, its the untrue truth that takes so much work that you have to negate the promises of God to the point that no promise is unconditional!

  12. Dave,nice to hear you say that you want Scripture not external stuff ; that said,bear in mind that as we keyboard in every sentence,we are writing fallible external stuff ourselves (which we want others to hear !).

    Have not done in yet,in fact,only really found this brewing in my artesian well (so to speak ) yesterday ; that is,I think evangelicals have done some serious miscabling work : they have plugged the Messianic Covenant into a double socket with the Abrahamic one ; thing is,the Abrahamic one Paul discusses in Galatians is to his Seed ; but,the New,Second,Better (Messianic one discussed in Hebrews is to the physical house of Israel and the house of Judah (i.e. in modern terminology,to the Jewish people).

    And that is only two of the five covenants. The Augustine-Luther-Calvin doctrinal chain of teaching have basically taken the Abrahamic and Messianic cable,and plugged it into a whole new socket of distorted Augustinian predestination.

    Anyway,this miscabling stuff is a huge doctrinal MESS ; I may do some finger-dancing on the keyboard in a fuller piece very soon,even if only for myself.

    Thankyou for taking time to reply. Some of what you wrote may come from not having read those two books. I found it agreeable mostly,on first reading it ; surprised Michael felt so strong I have to say if being frank.

    Dave,I am sure you would not claim to be the only one on earth worth listening to outside of Holy Scripture ; so do don a napkin and listen to these talkssometime ; (Michael,take note,do not listen to the Romans talk without a napkin on ; the salivating prospect of getting this man on lineoffire radio might mess up your shirt a bit!)

    A tremendous edification banquet on the five covenants (and cables) ; I slightly lean more to Michael’s take on the Messianic ; that said,I know no fallible man closer to plumb truth than Pawson :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-five-covenants-of-god-2009

    Ones below can be watched online,or downloaded or freely MP3 and heard in car,while walking the dog,on a plane etc.

    On Hebrews (Messianic covenant cable)

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/129?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%

    2Fhttp://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/128?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

    Galatians (two cables discussed ; Messianic and Abrahamic )

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/131?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/130?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

    Romans (Messianic cable)

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/107?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/106?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

    )Eliyahu,you will find these talks to be superb.)

  13. Love you Dr. Brown. I do think you use strong words, rightfully so with your passion, to try and discredit some amazing points that Steve presents. Many of his interpretations often make the most sense through the use of Scriptures compared to yours. But I love learning and continue to enjoy the honor that is being shown among believers who disagree on certain issues. I also love your heart for Israel and the Jews. Thank you for hosting these type of posts and I enjoyed hearing you in person a few years ago and had a great encounter with God at the end of your talk. Thanks!

  14. Mark,

    I didn’t mean not to post external links for the concern of fallibility because of course we, and our interpretations all are to some extent. I more meant that I am interested in hearing a response from YOU, based on what you believe scripture to be teaching instead of a few headlines leading into an external link…make sense?

    I have never before heard what you mentioned about Hebrews being another covenant to the natural Jew. I must say it seems far fetched at first thought but I would appreciate a short overview by you to hit the main concepts. I would agree we are in a “doctrinal mess” here in the west concerning some things, but I would stop short of saying top priority is to straighten the mess out.

    Certainly the greatest crisis we have is one of the heart, in lacking humility and sincerity. If we only turn to the Lord without any “plan b” and say “here I am, reveal yourself in me, complete your working of the cross in my life and shake me til only that which is of you remains…” well, I dare say that is the only foundation upon which any doctrinal truth can be built on…one that has truly allowed the “cornerstone”, the Truth Himself, to be rightly laid in our hearts. Without that substance and reality it really doesn’t matter how many doctrines we mentally assent to accurately.

  15. Dr. Brown,

    Absolutely understand your time constraints. Just wanted to quick say I was finally able to listen to today’s show and in all honesty I agree with just about everything you said…

    Your explanation of “all of Israel will be saved” and how that unfolds in the end was very helpful. I still stand by my concerns of there being an unhealthy infatuation(not directed towards you) with an Israel that can “do no wrong” politically and militarily. I think this approach is shallow and is what fuels a lot of what Steven was saying…I also don’t think his understanding of Galatians 3 negates the reality of Israel’s endtime repentance as you laid out.

    My bottom line is I believe there is so much more for us to learn concerning God’s unfolding plan for BOTH Jew and gentile. I am much less interested in doctrinal perfection than I am the reality of the fulness of the Lord himself in our midst revealing himself and His heart for ALL people.

  16. Ray,

    I want to respect the thread and not get too far off topic but quickly…

    I generally agree with your assessment, especially of Jesus being the ONLY foundation, truth, etc.

    My concern, however, is you seem to only be expressing the one side. The sermon on the mount was given to expose the hearts and motivations of those who were trusting in their outward adherence to God’s law for salvation and right standing with God…hence “unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom…”

    But don’t forget his yoke is easy and his burden is light! Don’t forget that he while yes he crushes us and any goodness we hold to that he has provided a way, by faith in him, and that we are now able, by the spirit, to reckon this old, Adamic, at emnity with God, rebellious, hardened, self-pity filled, self-righteous, bitter, resentful, lustful, coveting man DEAD and buried with Christ so we now can rise by the same resurrection power that raised christ to newness of life…the new creation man!

  17. Dave,I agree that intellectually sorting out Covenants and aspects is not the main thing (that said,see below) ; indeed,there are Chinese disciples who have never even read a Bible,who have a much DEEPER understanding of Messiah Jesus than some Westere diciples ; in the West we have diplomas,over there they have brand marks on their bodies.

    I will probably write a ‘miscabling’ piece soon,perhaps very soon,even if just for myself.

    Here is a quick reference to two sentences,speaking of two related but distinct Covenants:

    Galatians 3:15-18 ABRAHAMIC Covenant,the PROMISE (vs Mosaic LAW) to Abraham and his Seed (Messiah Jesus).

    Hebrews 8 : 8 MESSIANIC Covenant ; a New,Better,SECOND Covenant with the very people He made the Old,FIRST (Law) one – with (Israel,the Jewish people,the physical descendents of Jacob).

    (Perhaps like a small child being led across a busy road by a schoolteacher to the arms of their mom,the Law was meant to lead Israel to Messiah ; Galatians 3:23-26)

    Having said intellectual discussions are NOT important,never forget that intellectual errors can have VERY VERY serious applications in daily life.

    In Michael’s ‘Our Hands…’ book,Michael spends the first 100 pages or so,detailing the replusive fruit of having an unscriptural understanding of Israel ; he spends the final 50 pages or so,dismantling the acrobatic Romans 9-11 ‘Reformed’ misteaching.

    For the price of a few bagels and a cup or two of coffee,you could buy yourself one of the most important books a Western disciple could possible read outside the Holy Scripture Faculty writers (i.e. the Bible !).

  18. Dave,just as Michael wrote ‘The Real Kosher Jesus’ in response to what Schmuley had written,likewise,Pawson wrote ‘Defending Christian Zionism’ in response to what Stephen Sizer had written.

    After David’s book came out,David and Stephen had a calm,respectful debate (around 15 to 20 minutes in duration,if memory serves). In the debate,Stephen latches on to the ‘Seed’ statement of Paul’s,in Galatians.

    If you go to David’s wikipage (link here),scroll down to the section on ‘Teachings’ (where brief discussions of his various books are given) ; in the penultimate teaching piece (i.e the brief piece on ‘Defending Christian Zionism’),pon that book of his),you will find a link. Click the link and here the debate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pawson

    Anway,this is not a ‘miscabling’ piece,this is a piece of mine I have rehashed ; and this is what I believe myself :

    When God put the ABRAHAMIC Covenant in place,he effectively divided mankind into TWO groups (perhaps one might say that that division physically began with Abraham,and then got finalized – through Isaac – in Jacob) : one group repeatedly refered to in First Covenant Scripture as the people/nation (and now known as ‘Jews’) ; one group repeatedly refered to as the peoples/nations – comprising all other people groups (and now collectively known as ‘Gentiles’). This distinction still holds true – note for instance,Romans 15:8-12.

    Note also,that just as during the First (MOSAIC) Covenant period of history,a person who was not a physical descendent of Jacob/Israel could come under the MOSAIC Covenant if they so desired (Exodus 12:48-49,Ezra 6:21) – so too,in this Second (MESSIANIC) Covenant period of history,wild olive branches who are hitherto STRANGERS to the COVENANTS (and,via faith in Messiah Jesus) are able to be grafted in among the natural olive branches,and thereby come under the MESSIANIC Covenant.

    In Galatians,Paul said ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek’ in MESSIAH Jesus – Galatians 3:28 ; but he did not say ‘in the WORLD’. Yes (and as Stephen Sizer would correctly point out),Paul did indeed say (in reference to the ABRAHAMIC Covenant and PROMISE ,’and to his Seed’ SINGULAR ; and there meaning Messiah,not Israel – Galatians 3:15-18 ; but one must be careful not to take what Paul says about the (singular) Seed recipient of the ABRAHAMIC (PROMISE) Covenant,and then wrongly also apply it to the (plural) people/nation recipients (i.e. physical descendents of Jacob/Israel) of the MESSIANIC Covenant.

    The writer of Hebrews clearly tells us (refering back to Jeremiah 31) that God has made a new COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Hebrews 8:8) – refering not to the Seed (not to one Person alone ; not to the Messiah),and NOT to the ABRAHAMIC Covenant ; but rather,refering to Israel (the Jewish people,Paul’s ‘kinsmen according to the flesh’) and to the MESSIANIC (MOSAIC-replacing) Covenant. (Messiah Jesus – the Seed – has not made a new covenant with Himself – the Seed ; no, He has made it with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.)

    When studying any aspect of Holy Scripture,it is vital to consider BOTH sides of the Bible coin ; if one statement is emphasized over another,you do not end up with an accurate understanding – you can end up in a wineskin. Furthermore,when studying Israel (i.e. God’s plans for the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel) it is vital not to confuse what Paul says about the ABRAHAMIC Covenant,with what Jeremiah and the writer of ‘Hebrews’ says about the MOSAIC-replacing,Better,Second,NEW,MESSIANIC Covenant.

    (Michael,if you feel I have got something wrong here,PLEASE TELL ME where you differ.)

  19. The debate was good, but I am curious as to your take on Steve being a 7th Day Adventist. You recognized him as a “brother” in the Lord, but SDA is a cult centered around the teachings of Ellen G. White.

    Fred

  20. Mark,

    Thanks for the outline. Again, this is new to me so I’m very interested and will check it out when I get a little more time, hopefully in the next day or so.

    My general approach to understanding the Lord’s ways in these matters starts before Abraham, however. I am not negating what you said about Hebrews by saying that, but rather laying a foundation so you can see where I’m coming from and we can go from there.

    The foundation of my perspective starts in the garden. It would seem that to make sense of where we are today we need to go to the beginning and see where things went wrong. This may seem to go off topic for a minute but it is all related. The bible isn’t simply a book of many doctrines but rather a arrow pointing to Christ! I don’t mean this doctrinally as much as I mean it becoming our REALITY.

    The temptation of adam and eve was to eat of the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. His temptation was basically that by knowing good and evil they could become like God. This, while a deception, was actually “true” in a sense. If you note God’s response in the story was they “have become like us, knowing good and evil”. He then declared they must be refused access to the “tree of life”. Next in line in my understanding is Cain and Abel(I believe the man who was debating Dr. Brown in this episode mentioned this).

    Part of God’s curse was that man was now to toil to produce fruit of the ground, by the sweat of their brow. We see how Cain brought God his “fruit of the ground”, the place where Satan was cursed to, as an offering to God which was rejected by God. However Abel’s offering was “the first of his flock”, a lamb, typifying Christ, the ONLY acceptable sacrifice to God! If you look at the lineage of Abel this goes down to Enoch who “walked with God and was no more for God took him” and eventually Noah, the only righteous one saved in the flood.

    All of this is to say that I believe we can see 2 VERY IMPORTANT “lineages”, if you will, that point to what is an acceptable offering to God. Why is this important? Because the very offense that Jesus himself was to the nation of Israel was God’s only acceptable sacrifice. This has it’s greatest implications on us as individuals, but also forms the covenant of faith with Abraham, to His Seed, as you mentioned and we agree.

    Concerning man in general, the greatest battle within is what sacrifice are we presenting before God? That of the Lamb or that of our own toil? This is of supreme importance if we are to understand scripture, as a whole. This is an INWARD work which only the Lord can do in us as we choose to yield our proud, toil offerings to the Lord and humble ourselves and cry out to the Lord for Him to “reveal Jesus in us, to us and through us”. Not to just to a mental assessment of facts, no matter how true they are.

    Upon this foundation I believe we can more clearly see God’s purpose and involvement with man. Gotta go for now, I’m running late but we can pick this up and tie it all together concerning the topic at hand, natural Israel.

    David says in Psalm 119 that “the SUM of your word is truth”, I therefore believe there is a tying together of many things. We just need to remember WHO they point to, not WHAT they point to, as our foundation. Only from their can we accurately build, the reality of Christ as our “cornerstone”.

  21. Dr. Brown, I didn’t have time to read all the comments and responses so I may be redundant here, My comment: “If God breaks His promises to natural Israel, how do we know He won’t break His promises to us? ‘God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent”(paraphrased). keep up the good work, Dr. Brown……Judy Davis

  22. I asked a question earlier about Steve’s identity with the 7th Day Adventists and Dr. Brown calling him a “brother” in the Lord. I’m wondering if that comment will be approved? You don’t have to approve it and I can understand the divisive nature of the question. I don’t intend to be contentious. Maybe just shoot me an email off line.

    Just listening to the debate, it was clear that Steve was promoting a works righteousness gospel with his argument for a “condition” placed on all the covenants. If you search his websites, the SDA works rigtheousness becomes clear. He also denies the immortality of the soul and affirms annihilationism.

    I love Dr. Brown’s stuff on Israel and he is one of my favorite radio teachers who I go turned on to by James White. Again, I just want to know his thoughts on this guy being a SDA.

  23. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together, even as a hen gatheresth her chickens under he wings, and ye would not! Behold, oiu house is left unto you desolate. Mt. 23:37-38. God has never broken his promises, man breaks his promises. That is the problem with the first covenant. “And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.” How often our promises fall so short! We can only be saved as God writes his law on our heart. Ultimately, this is what God man (and Israel) needed to recognize from the start. We are only saved individually. Israel was God’s light to the world. God forgave them over and over and ultimately put them on probation, 70 weeks a prophetic 490 years – Daniel 9:24, the same amount Jesus told Peter that he should forgive people when Peter asked “how oft shall I forgive my brother?”. Israel as a nation was judged and found wanting. Romans 11:20, the branches (Israel) were broken off because of their unbelief. Thank the Lord that when they accept Christ they can be grafted in again into the “Israel of God” the church that 1) believes in Jesus the bread of life, 2) keeps the 10 commandments of God, and 3) believes that God can create a new heart. Only with these three, represented by the three items that are in the Ark of God(bowl of Manna, 10 commandments,and Aaron’s rod that budded, can man enter into heaven. May God give people a love for the truth and the spiritual discernment to understand His word.

  24. Dr. Brown,
    It is apparent that Jesus has found a way to regather the nation of Israel, as a way or with a purpose to guide them into finding Jesus…and certainly reintegrated them to the ” original Olive tree” from which many were cut off because of unbelief(Rom. 11)…But notice the re-grafting is in Christ, by believing in Him…by default this means becoming part of the Israel God by re-grafting these original branches (Jews) then they are grafted back to the Israel of God as joining Christian Church…
    this is not a replacement theology, but a continuation theology…in which the christian church is the true continuation of the OT original church…all rooted in Christ in the OT as a promise and in the NT as a reality…Those jewish branches that did not see Christ as the fulfillment of their promises, rejected Him, in so doing they were cut off from the Israel of God(the original Olive tree)….

    What I must point out is that many of those prophecies were conditional…and if any party does not meet the conditions the promise is not fulfilled..We all know that God kept his part of the covenant…but did the Jewish nation did? No, they did not.

    The above brings me to the point…Israel as a nation was left with no covenant by their own choosing…The Old Covenant ending at the cross with Jesus death, means that they no longer have an active Old Covenant in place (as such the sacrificial system is obsolete), this is so because Jesus ratified the New Covenant as such the old one was not longer needed. Since the Jews did not accept Christ, which means they did not accept the New Covenant…truth be told, as a nation Israel of flesh..was left with no binding covenant…not because God’s doing, but because their own choice. Yet at the individual level, all Jews believers, together with gentile believers are partakers of the new Covenant…

    This brings me to the final point….What does the prophetic message says about ‘time of the end events” which is to determine that fate of the not only the Nation of Israel but of the all world…Simply, that what is coming for us is much war, tribulation and this will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ…as such no Messianic Millennial kingdom here on earth. Therefore, no establishment of the nation of Israel as the center of God’s government here on earth during this earth history as we know it..and also no rebuilding of a third temple in Jerusalem..

    Please think about it…since the sacrificial system is obsolete, and expiation and mediation as finding pardon for man’s sin is solely done by the blood of Christ…then what good will it do a temple in Israel in which animal sacrifices are resumed? No meaning whatsoever…no purpose in it.. This further shows us the banality of rebuilding a third temple in Jerusalem.

    yet there is going to be third temple…but in the prophetic message is told to come from heaven..after the millennium…it is at this time that the land of Israel will have its temple, as such be exalted…

    Rev 21:2-3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Truth be told..Jesus always said that His kingdom was not of this world, and still is not. Christ will establish His kingdom here on earth after the postmillennnial purification of thus eartg…it is at this point that the land of Israel will be the seat of the government of Christ, and Israel through the seed of Abraham, that is Christ, will take posession of that much beloved land…for the Israel of God..the Israel of the promise…

  25. Now…let me clarify a point…I mentioned the Millennial kingdom as taking place in heaven…
    This is so because, this 7th Millennium of rest (initiated by the 2nd coming of Christ to rapture His saints to heaven and ending by His return from heaven in the Holy City) is declared in the prophecy as being a time of desolation for the earth, which certainly can be found as such using simple mathematics…which is =
    =at the 2nd coming(day of salvation and wrath)=
    1)all the saints go to heaven(for 1000 years)
    2)all the wicked are killed in the day of Wrath..
    =

    O SAINTS HERE + 0 WICKED ALIVE = 0 PERSONS HERE

    (THE ONLY ONE HERE/this.earth DURING THE 7TH MILLENNIUM IS SATAN AND HIS ANGELS AND THEY ARE IN JAIL)…

    Therefore the earth is desolated (o persons) during the 7th Millennium and therefore it rest…as such this earth will keep its sabbaths…just like it did during the Babylonian deportation..+

    Ch 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

    Which brings me to point..since what it is ahead are wars and tribulation soon to be stopped by the 2nd coming of Christ, followed by the Millennium…then when is the land of israel to become the sit of God’s government..?
    answer= certainly not in this earth as we know it, but after the millennium in the earth made new…

    Why then such a fixation in the land of Israel as we know it now as the sit of an earthly kingdom which according to the prophetic message is not going to take place in this earth as we know it?

    …Let us instead keep our eyes in the Israel that is to be the center of the earth made new..the New Jerusalem…

    Man has its eyes fixated in this world…and just like the Jews did in Jesus times, many were thinking that He was coming to establish the kingdom of Israel in that land and defeat the Romans…this was a figment of their imagination… this has continue despite of us being told over and over gain that Christ kingdom is not of this world (this did applied to the times of Jesus and still does in our times)… Truth be told…Not until the purification of this earth is that Christ is going to establish His everlasting Kingdom here on earth…

    I would advice to my friends Jews and Gentiles alike, to get closer and closer to the Lord because what lies ahead for us according to the prophetic message of Daniel and Revelation (well described in Daniel 11;40-15,12:1-3, and Rev. 13 later part and Rev. 17…is simply much tribulation, until our deliberance by Christ at the second coming…

    So what lies ahead until then…simply tribulation. Let me just point out, the group most persecuted is going to be the believers, Jews and gentile alike, described as those that keep the Law of God and have the faith of Jesus=

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    This group will be persecuted by the last King of the North(in Daniel 8 identified as the Antichristian/Apostate church) and the King of the South(Muslim radicals) as per Dan. 11-12. And this has already started and will be evident to you, when you come to understand that Papal Rome(aka. the Antichrist/king.of.the.north) and its allies are bound in destroying the nation of Israel and from there the whole world…as much as the Muslim radicals want to do the same. They are setting up the Hegelian Principle, which is simply lets put the Jews and Arabs to kill each other, so that a third option comes in, Papal Rome…the Crusades of the Time of the End..that is what we are seeing…but Christ will end up all this waring and tribulation…and the Antichrist will be defeated at Armageddon…

    When Israel the nation finally comes to this realization of what it is going one, and where their future lies… they then will see their future clearly, as having no hope but what Christ has to offer in the earth made new…

  26. Your assessment was totally wrong in your interview.
    You are correct that God keeps his promise in old and new. As far as ALL OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. Your conclusions were wrong and you are directing all to the wrong conclusion. Let me explain:

    For some, linking today’s news headlines and Scripture gave everyday life a sense of urgency and significance; yet such flights of fancy have had devastating real-life consequences for the people of the Middle East.

    Just as certain Biblical interpretations defended slavery and Apartheid, Scripture has been used to justify Middle Eastern occupation, oppression, and injustice, in defiance of the concerns of the Hebrew prophets and in policies that are truly anti-Christ.
    Mainstream media and scholarship has only recently caught on to the central role played by such beliefs in influencing American foreign policy, and many are justly concerned at what seems to be a suicidal will-to-Apocalypse.

    Is it possible to read the Bible too literally?

    “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me.” (John 5:39)

    Important presuppositions when reading the Bible
    We must read the Bible literally,
    We must read the Bible contextually.

    We must see how the New Testament helps to interpret the Old Testament.

    We must take special care when interpreting prophecy and the apocalyptic scriptures.

    We must avoid the temptation to allow contemporary events to determine our interpretation.

    The ultimate question of any passage is this – how does it relate to God’s purposes fully and finally revealed in Jesus?

    Israel and the Church: Who are God’s Chosen People?
    “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:13-16)

    The Israel of God in the Old Testament
    An Inclusive Israel.
    An Inclusive Inheritance.
    An Inclusive Temple.

    The Israel of God in the New Testament, is The Vine and the Vineyard.

    So who are the real ‘Children of God’?

    The promise to Abraham–Gen 12:3, 22:17
    The remnant of Judah—2 Kings 17
    The remnant of exiles–Isa 6:13 10:20 Ezra 9:9-15
    Jesus The seed remnant–Isa 53, Gala 3:16
    The Apostolic remnant–Acts 1:12-14
    The Pentecost Church–John 1:12-13 Acts 2:41, 4:4
    The great multitude–Revel 7:4-10

    Israel: The Church in the Old Testament– The Body of Christ:
    The Church in the New Testament…
    Israel is not being replaced by the Church. The church(Eclessia, Believer of Faith) has always been Israel.

    Righteous live by faithfulness (Hab. 2:4)ot
    Righteous live by faith (Romans 1:17)nt

    Holy people (Deu. 7:6; 33:3; Num. 16:3)
    Holy people (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)
    Chosen (Deu. 7:6; 14:2)
    Chosen (Col. 3:12; Tit. 1:1)
    Loved (Deu. 4:37)
    Loved (Col. 3:12; 1 The. 1:4)
    Called (Isa. 41:9; 2 Chr. 7:14)
    Called (Rom. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 1:2)
    Assembly (Psa. 1:5; 89:5; 149:1)
    Assembly (Acts 7:38; 20:28; Heb. 2:12)
    ‘Church’ = Assembly in Greek OT (Mic. 2:5)
    Church (Matthew 16:18; 18:17; Eph 2:20)
    Flock (Eze. 34:2, 7; Psa. 77:20)
    Flock (Luke 12:32; Act. 20:28)
    Holy nation (Exo. 19:6)
    Holy nation (1 Pet. 2:9)
    Treasured possession (Exo 19:5)
    Special possession (1 Pet. 2:9)
    Kingdom of priests (Exo. 19:6)
    Royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:9)
    Children of God (Hos. 1:10)
    Children of God (Joh. 1:12)
    People of God (Hos. 2:23)
    People of God ( 1 Pet. 2:10)
    People of his inheritance (Deu. 4:20)
    Glorious inheritance (Eph 1:18)
    My dwelling place = tabernacle (Lev. 26:11)
    Dwelling among us = tabernacle (Joh. 1:14)
    I will walk among you (Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38)
    I will… walk among them (2 Cor. 6:16-17)
    I will be his father = of David (2 Sam. 7:14)
    I will be a father to you (2 Cor. 6:18)
    God is a husband betrothed ( Jer. 3:14; 31:32
    Christ is a husband betrothed (Eph 5:25-30
    Twelve tribes (Gen. 49:28; Rev. 21:12)
    Twelve Apostles (Mar. 3:14; Rev. 21:14)

    Facts:
    God has only ever had one people..

    Citizenship of Israel was always open to all people who acknowledged God.

    Old Testament analogies for Israel are applied in the New Testament to the Church

    God’s people has always been inclusive and spiritual not exclusive and physical…

    The promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in and through the Church.

    Those who receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour are:
    Branches in the Vine, Brethren of Jesus= Chosen People. The Remnant, The Children of God, Children of Abraham & Sarah= The Israel of God..

    As for the land?
    The Promised Land – From the Nile to the Euphrates?
    “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17:7-8)

    The covenant promises made to the Patriarchs concerning the Land were understood as having been fulfilled in the Old Testament.
    Genesis 17:1-8; Deuteronomy 2: 1-9; Deuteronomy 28:1-10, 15-16, 63-64; Psalm 105:6-11, 37-45; Ephesians 3:4-6; Romans 9; Hebrews 11:10-16.

    The Land, like the earth itself, belongs to God and our people were at best aliens and tenants with temporary residence.

    Residence in the Land was always conditional and inclusive…..

    “Jesus repudiated a narrow nationalistic kingdom”.

    His kingdom is spiritual, heavenly and eternal.

    This is the inheritance of all who trust in Jesus Christ only…..In the Old Testament was the same, The God of Israel(those by faith).

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name ofLord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

    Many Christian Zionists defend and justify Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem claiming it is the eternal, undivided and exclusive capital of the Jews. But it is not true…..

    Jerusalem became the capital of Israel briefly under David and Solomon before its decline following the disintegration of tribal alliances and their eventual exile.

    The Old Testament vision of Jerusalem enjoying God’s blessing is of an international and inclusive city of “faith”, justice and holiness.

    Jerusalem in the New Testament is associated not with Israel, the Jews or the Temple, but with Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.

    The end of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ far from being a sign of Jewish national sovereignty more likely points to the return of Jesus.

    The Jerusalem that rejected Jesus and his followers is associated with the immorality of Sodom and oppression of Egypt in the Book of Revelation.

    Christians should look instead to a heavenly Jerusalem as their spiritual home.

    By claiming this Israel and the carnal, you are denying the work of Christ.

    What is written here, may it be written in the Kingdom.. Blessings in HIS Service.

  27. Ray, since we don’t allow personal attacks on this page and since you continue to obfuscate, I am politely requesting that you not post here until you simply answer my question with a “yes” or “no.” I am not angry with you but rather very burdened for you spiritually; that being said, we do have guidelines here for a reason, and we are not playing games when it comes to the things of God.

    Should you continue to post contrary to my request before our moderators review the posts tomorrow, your posts will be pulled at that time.

    My preference is that you continue to dialog here but that will only happen if you first come clean about your accusation. Intended for me or not? Yes or no?

  28. What comes to mind as I ponder this debate is what the Lord says in Genesis 12:3, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” The Lord is positively committed to the promises he made to Abraham & physical Israel as we see played out in the earth today. His covenant to physical Israel is being watched on the news daily.

  29. Linking today’s new and headlines is everything right now. There are pending wars prophesied from the old testament the Lord has yet to fulfill to natural Israel. The promises to natural Israel is today’s news.

  30. I wonder why your moderators deleted my post? Must not like people disagreeing with you? Anyways, I am thankful you did a radio show that tried to honor the other person who did disagree with you and please no need to repost my simple post before this one. But I really do thank you for your passion for the Jewish people and Israel.

  31. The status of modern Israel continues to be an important topic for believers. This is not some academic exercise, but one which has a real world impact. Antisemitism continues to be a consequence of replacement theology. The fact that it may be an unintended consequences does not lessen its harm. Consider that Mr. Wohlberg is a Jewish believer but does not hold that there is anything special about modern Israel. Many may say that if Jewish believer does not care about Israel, than why should I care? The answer of course, is because Scripture says it is important. Sadly, many will not read Scripture.

  32. Ray’s silence is quite telling, and obviously, if his answer was “no” he would have stated that immediately, which means that he (and perhaps others?) think that it is a denial of the “work of Christ” (!!) to believe that: 1) God can make unconditional promises to any person or people; and 2) that God, by His Spirit, can pour out a spirit of repentance on that people at a certain time and bring them to faith in Jesus. Remarkable!

    It is also telling that, based on post #26, he implies that if you believe, like Paul believed, that God’s promises to Israel remain because of His love for the patriarchs (Rom 11:28-29), then you are not worshiping God in the Spirit but in the flesh.

    This is so revealing and underscores a lack of spiritual insight and a lack of appreciation for the work of Christ, not a denial thereof, hence my concern for Ray rather than any need for me to defend why I hold to the Scriptures.

  33. When the church cut itself off from it’s Jewish roots(just as Paul warned it not to do in his letter to the Romans),it gave rise to multiple church denominations, and biblical aberrancy that subsequently gave rise to anti-semitism and worse. I won’t quote Romans 11 but I strongly believe one cannot read this chapter in context without seeing replacement theology crumble. However, the twisting of truth is very seductive, serious and hard to combat. Dr, Brown, are you familiar with Don Richardson’s book, “Eternity in Their Hearts?” I had to read it for world religion class at Impact University and though it may seem off topic, the points therein suggests an answer or at least shed light to the above debate. Richardson offers a unique perspective on natural Israel. It’s purpose, role and place in God’s Kingdom; without contradicting His covenant promises to natural Israel. I would be interested in your feedback if ever you have the time to read it.

  34. People,
    let me just say something, we as Christians, which ever might be our origin, whether Jew or gentile, we no longer should be thinking as one being different from the other, or one having benefits that the other do not have…because in Christ we are one…

    Truth be told, we are in the last days….actual days if you ask me, because what is coming ahead is dreadful and thanks to God short lasting…So why have our eyes fixated in the glory due to us gentiles or to the Nation of Israel? What good are we going to get out of it if anything…

    Let us as christian find our joy and purpose in Christ and what He has to offer to us…The New heavens and an earth made new…but most of us the company of God with Us, He as our savior and redeemer…Redeemer of all of us…that is all what matter.

    There is a false idea that Christ’s/Messiah’s kingdom is of this world to be establish in this earthly Jerusalem… But is it that what the New Testament is teaching…? How does the New Testament presents the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises….and for whom?

    Truth be told even in the OT Israel, only the people of faith remained attached to the true vine, as part of the Israel of faith, because that lacking at Yom Kipur they were removed of the family of God, His Israel of faith…and this same vine is the one of the NT (certainly with some original Jewish branches cut-off and some wild gentile branches grafted)…

    So the biblical principle presented concerning the Israel of faith, the Israel of God…the Israel of the promise is the same in the OT as in the NT…
    The replacement theology is wrong…
    the continuation theology is the truth…

    That said, given the fact that our concerns should be spiritual…could we then instead start looking to this earth with the same spiritual glasses that Jesus had…in which He boldly told us that His kingdom was not of this earth…It was and it will always be an spiritual kingdom which will find its physical realities solely in the heavens and earth made new….and although Abraham was looking for the earthly promise land…He did know that the ultimate gift was a better country a heavenly one…an earth made new…

    Heb 11:13-15 “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

    The promises for Israel will be fulfilled for Israel, the same Israel we all know of the Old Testament, which in the New Testament had added gentiles to be part of it….the Israel of Faith… the Israel of the promise…

    The Messiah of the Jews, has through them brought that message to us gentiles.

    I see in this world a lack of appreciation of the Jews and for what they are and can become once again in Christ, and I see the Jews with a lack of appreciation for the gentiles, for what they have become in Christ..

    And I do see that Christians Jews are in a great predicament, a conflict of identity, since they have to cut many of their attachments to what they are as a nation(given the fact that the nation has failed to accept Christ)…and yet not being quite accepted by the gentiles, which fail to see who they really are in Christ…

    To the gentiles believers I say…people, the Christian Jews are the original branches to whom the promises were given which are grafted back… our Messiah is and always will be a Jew, and our Messiah inherits the throne of David,…keep this in mind …the throne of David, has a God-man that is to rule this world and heaven in general, for eternity….This should not be a source of personal pride…but of humble love toward Jesus that have assured that previdlege for Israel, for all Jews.. the real throne of David as ruling for eternity…

    And we gentiles, have much to be thankful too…because we have become part of the Israel of the promise…The Israel of Faith.. and that thank to God, who has been shared “that citizenship” with us gentiles…what a blessing for them, and also for us… We are also sharing in all these promises and mercies, this should be a source of eternal gratitude towards God, and all these needs to be understood within the context of the “spiritual” concerns of God for His people…

    All of us, gentile believers and Jew Believers, need to be constantly reminded that God’s concern are by definition spiritual issues…that He has something better that what this earth can offer us…

    Yes, all these promises and mercies find their fulfillment in the physical realities of the Earth and heaven Made New…the earth purified…the whole earth needs to be purified before the most pure God-man our redeemer and King takes possession of His kingdom here on earth…

    Knowing that Christ is to descend to the Mount of Olives…do you think that place is prepared for His reception?…I being there…I know what lies in the mount and how a cemetery occupies a great portion of that mount…Truth be told, given the greatness of the God.man King, this earth needs to be purified before He grant us all our desires, as related to a perfect home here on earth with Jesus as our King…with the land of Israel as the site of His throne, and with Jesus our redeemer sitting in the throne of David…(because nobody can change that..it is the throne of David, the one that Jesus inherits, certainly of the whole universe also)..

    The New Testament amplifies the details of how is Jesus going to take possession of this earth…There is told of His soon…very soon 2nd coming as a Day of salvation/rapture of the saints to heaven, yet also as a Day of Wrath as the doom of all those wicked alive(their 1st death), to join all the wicked of all previous ages in the grave…Believe it or not….a simple mathematics tells us that this earth will be left uninhabited during the millennium (the 7th Millennium of Rest) which is all saints in heaven during the millennium and all wicked dead during the millennium…then this earth is desolated during the millennium(except for Satan and his angels in jail). Then after the millennium, the saints return to claim this earth at which point also all the wicked are resurrected to face judgment and execution(2nd death) in the lake of fire and brimstone(their 2nd death), which also purifies this earth, so that soon thereafter is settle for eternity…

    You see…
    the first death= resulted because of Adam’s sin
    the 2nd death= the result of rejecting Christ

    So…stop for a minute..knowing that Christ is at the door, do you really think that there is time for Christ to come and settle this earth…all unpurified?…Come on..this is Christ, the God.man…this is the Creator of heaven and Earth, this is the King of kings…the Lord of the whole Universes…Why do you think that Christ is coming to settle a millennial kingdom in this unpurified earth, all ransacked by the plagues among them a worldwide devastating earthquake that shakes our heavens above as well…People, wake up…God wants and deserves more that what many of us are offering Him, but our insistence in having Christ kingdom in this earht as we know it…Christ deserves and will get more…much more…the whole Universe is His domain, and this earth made new will have its throne…and for the Jews, be proud is going to be in the land of Israel…the Israel made new…

    FINALLY…a point that many denied, yet is the truth…which is that God’s law is binding and it it is the base of His governemnt…which includes the 7th day Sabbath of Rest…so important, that although rejected by most through the ages…the last or 7th millenniul the earth, a millennium of desolation, it will be so that the earth catch up for all those Sabbaths that did not keep, because man rejected that commandment and kept it busy all that time, when it should be resting…
    (just like God used the times of the Babylonian deportation, so that the land of Israel could keep its sabbaths)…for those that reject the 7th day Sabbath, as if it were only for those jews that so desire to do it…Beware, being all part of the Israel of God, grafted or original branches…we all need to keep the 7th day Sabbath Holy…as such keeping God’s law…

    This 7th day Sabbath keeping will become very relevant..when the nations of the earth will want to force in all of us a rejection of the true 7th day Sabbath and demand from us to accept the false Sabbath/Sunday…The law of God, and in particular this commandment will be the point of controversy..which it is solely a sign or mark of to which government we belong, simply by the law we keep…Since salvation is a free gift, that gift includes the power of the Holy Spirit to gives the power to keep God’s law from inside, as written in our hearts…Yet to reject the work of the Spirit by wilfully sinning will result in ous loosing that salvation…beware of this=

    1) we are saved because of a gift from Christ
    2) yet we are lost because our uncovered sins…

    So, a wilful sin will not be covered..which means us loosing our salvation..so says Hebrews=

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin(BRAKE GOD’S LAW) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice(NO MORE PARDON) for sins,
    Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ***hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace****?
    Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    God bless,
    brunie

  35. I believe the only reason Israel has the veil partially hardening/blinding them (in a way unlike any other people) which will only be removed AFTER all the Gentiles come in is because they had been/are exalting themselves as if pre-eminent/first; because of that, God must put them in last place.
    Once the “last place” slot has been secured for them (after all the Gentiles come in), the instrument whereby God caused them to be last will be lifted, and they will be allowed to enter “en masse”.
    Some of the first will be last (Israel was both among the first and will be the last who believe “they enter the Kingdom ahead of you”).

  36. I.E.: It is not some “sovereign act of grace” — nothing is “forced”; grace is not “irresistible”.
    There is a rhyme and reason to everything — their hardening and blindness is because of their high crime of exalting themselves in an attempt to solicit praise. “How can you believe when you receive praise from one another?”

  37. Even if “in this way, all Israel shall be saved” refers to “the Israel of God” (why not?), the “completion” is not the influx of the Gentiles, but the Israelites, when their veil is lifted after the Gentiles are done coming in and they are given the last place.

    I do not believe “all the Israelites who are living will be saved”, since the antiMessiah must be Jewish and usher in a false peace (“when they say peace peace sudden destruction comes upon them”) — “first the Jews” will receive him, “then the Gentiles”.

    His image will cause his mark to be received in the forehead or hand, which is vaguely familiar to the “tefillin” (which contained God’s Words/Commandments in them — thus, this mark must contain commandments [mind-spirit control]; convey/transfuse the spirit of the dragon whom those disbelievers in Jesus worship [John 8:44] and will thereby cause the world to worship the dragon whom they worship [Rv 13], even though they think they are serving God: “those who kill you will think they do God a service” [John 16:2]).
    If there is none greater than the Jew, then the final and greatest evil on the face of this earth in this age must be perpetrated by a Jew; if “God in the flesh” was a Jew, then satan in the flesh must be a Jew, proclaiming himself to be God [2 Th 2:4] — this is irrespective of the fact that he also has a god whom he worships: the dragon/satan.

  38. Dr Brown, God can can make unconditional promises to any person or people! The question is, did God make an unconditional promise to Abraham and his descendants regarding the land? From the very beginning, staying in God’s place (land) was dependent on obeying God. Adam and Eve’s remaining in the Garden of Eden was dependent on their obedience. God told Abraham that he (Abraham) and his descendents were to be obedient.

    God told Abraham in Gen. 17:9 “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.” In Genesis 18 verse 9 God said “For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right ant just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised.”

    In Deuteronomy chapter 28 God pointed out the blessings that would come on the children of Israel if (and I repeat if) they obeyed (verses 2 to 14). In the next 54 verses God pointed out the curses that would befall them if (again I repeat if) they disobeyed. The blessings or curses were dependent on obedience or disobedience. Of particular note is verses 62 and 63 of Deuteronomy 28 we are told “You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord you God. Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.” In Jeremiah 18 God made it clear that He can reverse His announcement. God said in verses 9 and 10 “And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

    Is the nation of Israel obeying God today?
    Are the people of Israel today doing what is right in God’s sight?
    If they are not obeying God, what then should they expect from God. Should they be blessed for their rejection of the Messiah?
    The writer to the Hebrews said of Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham they admitted that they were foreigners and strangers on earth…Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one (Heb. 11:13-16).
    Instead of joining with Jews and focusing on an earthly Jerusalem and an earthly temple which were shadows pointing to a future reality, we should be pointing them to Jesus.
    Instead of condoning the treatment given to the Palestinians (some who are our brothers and sisters, believers in Jesus Christ) by the Jews in the name of religion, we should be speaking out for what is right, fair and just.

    We need to put ourselves in the position of the Palestinians, how would we feel if we were being treated the way they are being treated by some other people in the name of their “religion”?

  39. This thread is shaping up real nice ; nutrients coming to the fore in this mulit-person tennis match !

    Just to quickly respond to Judy : Judy,I find it ironic myself that ‘Calvinists’ absolutely ADORE Romans ; reason being,Romans 9-11 is Second Covenant Scriptures most emphatic denounciation of BOTH ‘Replacement Theology’,and ‘IF SAVED,Always Saved’ (which is what they actually believe ; POTS) ; and yet,whilst adoring Romans,they seem blinded to both those denounciations.

    Michael,to return to the ‘Abraham and his Seed’ thing,just to say that for me (someone who knows next to zero about Hebrew),and perhaps for many others,Genesis 11 to Genesis 22 does not sound as if only to Abraham’s Seed. But,Paul DID know Hebrew,and he is the unsurpasaed Second Covevant Bible teacher ; therefore,Genesis 11 to 22 has to be studied based on Paul’s God-breathed passage in Galatians 3.

    Michael,as a person who knows Hebrew,could you please write a little piece about this (perhaps on here),drawing attention to the Hebrew words singular and plural,and basically elaborating on Paul’s teaching about ‘Abraham and his Seed?’ It would be nice to have a good piece on this (perhaps thereafter nestling as a free article in askdrbrown.org’s free resources section).

    Dave,thankyou again for taking time on that ; listen,you really would be very nourished indeed if you here Pawson’s talk on the five Covenants ; the talk gives an overview beginning at Eden (see the link in post 14 above).

    Dave,I would say that it needs to be understood that the narrow Way is both SPIRITUAL and BODILY in nature : on the spiritual front,Paul tells us circumcision of the flesh is not enough,the key (for Jew and Gentile) is circumcision of the heart ; on the boily front,the Second Covenant is with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel(a Covenant Gentiles partake of in Messiah Jesus),and secondly (and when it comes to Jews and Gentiles who ARE in Messiah),Paul tells disciples to hand their physical bodies to God as slaves to righteousness (it appears that in Corinth,disciples had actually – or were comtemplating – taking the body Jesus had bought down to the local brothel ! ‘A BODILY tale of two sixes’ one might say see Roman ; Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 6. I think many young disciples have not been taught the bodily side ; they think it OK to take the body Jesus bought to the local nightclub. Anyway,I’ll cut the body talk there,for the subject of the thread is physical Israel.)

    Dave (and all),do watch the five covenant talk. Michael,if possible,please,a piece on the ‘Abraham and his Seed’ matter (based on Genesis 11-22 and Galatians 3).

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