Israel and the Jewish People: Myth and Fact (an Interview with Ron Cantor)

1. @86:52
   “Acts chapter fifteen makes it very clear that Gentiles are not required the liturgical aspects of the Torah.”

   I’d say this is how most Christians read Acts 15:19-21:

   “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations w̶h̶o̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶G̶o̶d̶, but that we write to them to abstain ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶l̶l̶u̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶i̶d̶o̶l̶s̶, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, a̶n̶d̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶o̶d̶.̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶M̶o̶s̶e̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶c̶i̶t̶y̶,̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶y̶n̶a̶g̶o̶g̶u̶e̶s̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶S̶a̶b̶b̶a̶t̶h̶.”

2. The forum lost the formatting so, I’ll try again:

   “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

   I’ve heard people teach that Acts 15 is not about those who are turning to God (even though it specifically says so) and that we are allowed to eat food offered to idols cause of some things Paul says, and we are permitted to eat bloody non-shechita meat and that we don’t have to hear Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath anymore.

3. Acts 15
   1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
   2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

   And they decided:

   Acts 15
   11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

   Acts 15 deals with how we are saved. We are not to require Torah observance for salvation, but we are to learn YHWH’s word and subject ourselves to it once we are saved. Only a carnal minded believer does not subject himself to YHWH’s law and thus he fails to fulfill it.

   Romans 8
   4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…
   7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

   If we love YHWH, we love His word. If we love His word we obey it. If His law is not written on our hearts, i.e. if we do not love it, we are not operating in the new covenant.

   Jeremiah 31
   33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

   Deuteronomy 7
   9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

   1 John 5
   2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
   3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

   If we do not keep YHWH’s commandments, we do not love Him or our brothers. If it is grievous to us to learn and keep YHWH’s law, we need a new heart.

   Shalom

4. And the fact is that the new covenant is for the Israel, not gentiles.

   Jeremiah 31
   33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

   And gentile believers are grafted into Israel.

   Romans 11
   17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

   And now we are no longer gentiles.

   Ephesians 2
   11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands…
   19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

   And we should no longer act like gentiles that are ignorant of YHWH’s word.

   Ephesians 4
   17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
   18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

   And we should not consider ourselves different from Israel.

   Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people…
   6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
   7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer:

   The same law applies to Israel and the Stranger that belongs to YHWH.

   Numbers 15
   16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

   There is no double standard, for YHWH is not a respecter of persons.

   Acts 10
   34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

   Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

   1 Peter 1
   17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

   Shalom

5. Historically WHO is Jewish? Is it merely a religion (choice) or born/racially? Many who claim to be Jewish are not – many live by the written law and feel they are OK (saved, born-again). Jesus fulfilled the old laws and we do have His Holy Spirit within through His Death …

6. The Myth of Israel. The Numbers of the Exodus
   Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived – Isaac Asimov

   Amram married Jochebed his father’s sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram’s life was one hundred thirty-seven years (Ex 6:20). The name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and she bore to Amram: Aaron, Moses, and their sister Miriam (Num 26:59). The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years (Ex 12:40). Moses was eighty when he led the Exodus so he was born 350 years after the Israelites began living in Egypt. Jochebed was born to Levi in Egypt but her brother Kohath came to Egypt with Jacob (cf. Gen 46:11) and lived 133 years. This means that if Korath, Levi’s second of three sons, was two years old when he came to Egypt and lived 131 years in Egypt he died 219 years before his sister gave birth to Moses. If Jochebed was fifty years old when she bore Moses she was still 300 years younger than her brother Korath. This is quite impossible since Levi the father of Korath and Jochebed only lived 137 years so he could not have had two children almost 300 years apart in age!
   Reading the Bible in a logical order may dispel some commonly held beliefs about the event of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years (Ex 12:40). This is often held to mean that the Israelites were slaves for four hundred-thirty years, but this is impossible. Slavery began after Joseph died at the age of one hundred-ten, 71 years after Jacob arrived in Egypt when a new king arose over Egypt who did not know Joseph (Ex 1:8). This same king was in power after some supply cities were built and when Moses was born and Moses led the exodus at the age of eighty. So the total time period of slavery was around 100 years at the most. Starting from the time that Jacob came to Egypt when Joseph was thirty-nine, the Israelites were in Egypt 171 years (71 + 100 = 171). The time that the Israelites were slaves in Egypt could not have been longer than 100 years because Moses’ grandfather Korath, who lived only 133 years, came to Egypt with his grandfather Jacob and lived there at least 71 years before slavery began.
   If Jochebed was 2 years old when slavery began and twenty-two when she gave birth to Moses, this coincides with the length of time the Israelites were held in slavery being 100 years. But there seems to be about 259 years missing from the Israelites stay in Egypt. This is because we are counting from Jacob’s arrival in Egypt instead of Abraham’s. It was Abraham to whom God said that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years (Gen 15:13). Abraham began his sojourn in Egypt when he was seventy-five, he lived to be one hundred seventy-five and Isaac was born when Abraham was one hundred. Isaac fathered Jacob when he was sixty (cf. Gen 25:26). So Abraham was in Egypt for 11 years, and then moved back to Canaan. Then Isaac lived sixty years in a foreign land that wasn’t Egypt (cf. Gen 26:2) before Jacob was born and then Jacob came to Egypt when he was one hundred-thirty. That adds up to 215 years (25 + 60 + 130 =215) exactly half of the 430 years that Israel was supposedly oppressed in Egypt.
   If the king who did not know Joseph did not initiate the slavery of the Israelites for fourteen years until after the death of Joseph then that means that the Israelites were oppressed in one of two foreign lands that were not theirs for four hundred years as God originally said to Abraham they would be. The prophecy did not say that the Israelites would be slaves the entire four hundred years, just oppressed, nor did it say which land Abraham’s offspring would be oppressed in. Since the Israelites were a people without a land at that time, any land was a foreign land. If slavery did not begin until forty-four years after Joseph died we have a total period of some sort of off and on oppression in a foreign land of 430 years (215 + 71 + 44 + 100 = 430).
   The problem is that Exodus 12:40 makes the claim that the total time the Israelites were in Egypt was 430 years. Fundamentalists back this claim up with numbers. Slavery began nine years after Joseph died and eighty years after the arrival of Jacob in Egypt. We know that Korath lived 133 years, his son Amram 137 years and Moses was 80 when he led the exodus, so that makes 430 years (80 + 133 + 137 + 80 = 430). This presupposes that both Korath and Amram fathered children in the last year of their lives which isn’t likely since Abraham needed a miracle from God to father Isaac when he was only one hundred, decades younger than either Korath and Amram would have had to have been for the fundamentalist formula to be correct.
   The biblical authors confused traditions about Elohim’s four-generation cycle of divine justice (Gen 15:16) with Yahweh’s four hundred years (Gen 15:13) and wound up with two separate 215 year periods and two four generation groups: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Levi with Korath, Amram, Moses and the generation of Joshua that entered the Promised land. This might be enough to hint at the mythic nature of the whole exodus event to some readers. Another hint at the possibility that the entire event is a myth might be the following:
   Levi had three sons, eight grandsons, and fifteen great grandsons, two of whom were Moses and Aaron. Moses had two sons and Aaron had four sons and a grandson at the time of the Exodus. This means that Levi’s other thirteen great grandsons fathered an amazing total of much more than 22,978 of their own sons and grandsons (probably at least 10,000 more considering the mortality rates in ancient times) by the time of the enrollment of the clans (Num 26:62) shortly after the Exodus. At that time there were 23, 000 male descendants of Levi that were over one month old! The great grandsons of the other eleven tribes of Israel were able to perform this same miracle. How did they accomplish this? It wasn’t until after the Exodus that Moses said to them…”Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves (Num 31:15-18). Suffice it to say that unlike Moses and Aaron who had only one wife each, the other great grandsons must have had hundreds and hundreds of wives who were pregnant nearly all of the time before the Exodus. In that case who had time to work as a slave and when exactly did they have the time or energy to work?
   Whatever the case the new king said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we” (Ex 1:9). The midwives said to Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them (Ex 1:19); and the people multiplied and became very strong (Ex 1:20).
   The seventy people born to Jacob just two hundred fifteen years before the exodus multiplied to a total of about six hundred thousand grown male descendants besides the women and children that were born and were still alive in only five generations to just twelve brothers. In other words Moses’ great-grandfather Levi and each of his brothers had an average of about fifty thousand living grandsons, great and great-great-grandsons alive at the time of the Exodus, not to mention their other relatives that combined for a total of well over two million people.
   The enrollment of the clans in the Book of Numbers deals with smaller yet still very inflated figures: From thirty years old up to fifty years old, everyone who qualified for work relating to the tent of meeting; and their enrollment by clans was two thousand seven hundred fifty. This was the enrollment of the clans of the Kohathites (Num 4:35-37). From the genealogy that the Bible gives us about the descendants of Levi and specifically the clan of the Kohathites, it is obvious that there is something very wrong with the number of descendants of Kohath between the ages of thirty and fifty given in Numbers. Kohath had four sons, thirteen grandsons, and 2733 great-grandsons that served at the tent of meeting. Two of Korath’s grandsons, Moses and Aaron, had only two sons each that served at the tent of meeting. This means that the other eleven grandsons of Korath fathered at least 2729 sons that were between the ages of thirty and fifty at the time of the enrollment of the clans. Moses and Aaron themselves had grandsons but they would not have been old enough to serve at the tent of meeting and we can assume the same to be true of any other great-grandsons of Kohath.
   Because not all of those people could be descended from the same twelve brothers, either the number of Israelites that left Egypt all in one day is inflated, or the Israelites were never in Egypt.

7. David, where do you get the idea that Acts 15 gave a command for Gentile believers (or, really, any believers) to hear Moses preached in the synagogue every week?

8. Eva (Ref #5),

   Your question has been one of debate throughout generations, as different people (Jews) have different criteria in defining who is Jewish. I have a book here in my library entitled, “Who is a Jew?” with a subtitle that says, “Conversations, Not Conclusions” which identifies the varied opinions from leading Jewish rabbi’s and scholars from Israel, England and the United States – and they are varied indeed.

   Some of the different opinions that involve the acceptance or rejection of who is considered Jewish stems from the different branches of Judaism, to identification through birthright (maternal or paternal), to the sect of Judaism that one is permitted to subscribe or convert to in their practice of faith, to name a few.

   In my small opinion, I see that in the beginning of their establishment that G-d’s chosen people were to be identified as both an ethnic and religious community, unique to all other peoples on the face of the earth. Notwithstanding, we see a beautiful example of Ruth, a Moabite, who converted to the worship of the G-d of Israel, and was thus accepted into the fold, from who’s bloodline the Messiah came…And the conversations shall continue.

   Shalom,
   Brian

9. I believe it’s possible to keep the righteousness of the law without keeping it by the letter. Didn’t Jesus teach something about that?

   There’s no law of God in effect that I know of that goes against righteousness.

   King David learned of the gospel as he was led toward it by the law.

   I believe there is a perfect law of liberty that goes contrary to legalistic law keeping.

   I believe there are Gentile believers, just as there are Gentiles who are of something other than the faithful in Christ Jesus.

10. Many people have been led to the gospel by the law through the Spirit. There’s much to learn from the law. Reading the law can have a profound effect upon us. It can show us our need for salvation, for grace, for some work of God that needs to be done within us. We can be shown a lot of things by the law if we have the Spirit of God.

11. According to James the perfect law of liberty is the Law of YHWH…the Torah.

    James 1
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    James 2
    8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
    9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

    James is quoting:

    Leviticus 19
    15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
    16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
    17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
    18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    He is also referring to the ten commandments. Sabbath keeping is one of the ten that if we neglect it, we guilty of breaking the whole thing.

    The law is not perfect if we remove or change one thing. Thus we read:

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Keeping every aspect has direct bearing on our place in the Messianic Kingdom.

    Shalom

12. And do not forget that the only other place that speaks of a perfect law is:

    Psalm 19
    7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
    8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
    10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
    11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

    And the reward is being “blessed in our deed” as James says. Please take note:

    Deuteronomy 27
    1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
    2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

    It is pretty obvious to the unbiased reader of the whole scripture that keeping YHWH’s Torah brings blessing. It is also obvious that the perfect law is YHWH’s Torah. Our position of ruling and reigning with Messiah in the Messianic kingdom is predicted upon our obedience to YHWH’s Torah.

    Shalom

13. @Dr. Brown,

    “David, where do you get the idea that Acts 15 gave a command for Gentile believers (or, really, any believers) to hear Moses preached in the synagogue every week?”

    I don’t believe you need to command people to do what they’re already doing. Let me explain. Righteous Jews and proselytes in the first century read from the Torah and the prophets every week in the house of assembly. There’s no evidence that the Believers did not continue reading from the Torah and the prophets every week. There was no printing press, so the primary method of learning the Tanakh was not reading your own personal one, cause you’d have to be rich to own your own Tanakh, but by coming to the house of assembly where they recited it out-loud in Hebrew and then in translation (Greek or Aramaic depending on the local language). So from within this context and reality that the Jerusalem council allowed those among the nations who were turning to God to have grace in their sanctification and perseverance, as it is an ongoing process, but it was not hidden secret that the new Believers would hear the Torah and the prophets read every week. It was and is the universal practice of the faith of Israel to read it weekly.

14. So now most Protestant preachers will quote one or two verses and then expound on it for an hour, overwhelming the masses with their personalities or expert counseling knowledge. The focus has changed; debatable as to the better. Sure, I’m more of a scribal nerd; low-profile, fascinated with exegesis; but I also was a professional moderator for awhile; and, to repeat, this is the best place I have found in all of Christianity for a discussion by (so-called) laity.
    In Him, Ron M.

15. Where would the Church be without Preaching? But preaching is not the sum total of the Church.
    If the performance has become more important than the Word as I contend in modern US Christianity, then this justifies a ‘new wineskin’ of the original Levitical model, with Yeshua Messiah our Leader instead of Moses.
    It has taken me nine months of blogging these threads to build a level of trust; this was impossible for me in any congregational setting, small or large; discussion not being allowed in the assembly; so designated rank by family standing must also be revised to a more mature model- something I think Paul was trying to establish before this was hijacked by the Roman Nicolaitans. This Levite model has not sprung up properly in nearly 2000 years; so I suspect this has been an active ploy of the enemies of GOD, to disrupt a mighty collective force against its earthly power.
    Most current leaders won’t be able to give up the control they have enjoyed, though buying into the old wineskin was not necessarily their intent; yet taking advantage of others is sin, once it has been brought to the Light. Ignorance is not bliss; it can be very deadly. Hallelujah for the Light that Shines!
    In Him, Ron M.

16. Yet Christ is of the Melchizedek order.

    King of Righteous. King of Peace.

    Righteousness should bring about peace. Peace speaks of reconciliation doesn’t it?

17. @ron david metcalf,

    What’s worse is when you’re told you’re unspiritual if you don’t enjoy a preacher’s long monologues of his own personal ideas when he refuses to engage with the Biblical text, sigh.

18. Father GOD’s Peace is for His vessels to become servants to all; not their own masters over multitudes. For those who are willing, this becomes our Salvation and Deliverance; our Marriage Covenant of Love, Joy, and Peace.
    In Him, Ron M.

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