Dr. Brown debates Rev. Bill Lowery on the question of whether a believer can lose his salvation. Is it possible for a true believer to ever fall away? Can someone still claim to be “saved” if they have denied the Lord and now walk in unrepentant sin? Or does that mean the person was never saved in the first place? Join the debate today!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Thank God for salvation. The free gift of salvation. It changes us radically, from darkness to light, from sin to holiness, and from Satan’s kingdom to God’s kingdom!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The love of God is so wonderful and our Holy God so awesome, that all the days of our lives we should live with gratitude and thanksgiving to Him. We should say, “Lord I want to walk worthy!”
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DVD Debate with Rabbi Shmuley
PLUS
Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation? And, Holiness vs. Legalism
Why Israel’s Preservation and Salvation Should Matter to all Believers
Liberty From Sin, Not Liberty To Sin
VOR ARTICLE BY DR. BROWN
Jesus came to set us free! This is one of the fundamental truths of the gospel, repeated over and again in the New Testament. As expressed by Paul, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1a). In the words of Jesus himself, “. . […]
Blameless On That Day: Holiness and Love
VOR ARTICLE BY DAVID HARWOOD
Justified believers are urged to pursue holiness. We are promised that the pure in heart shall see God. (Matthew 5:8) We are warned that without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14) In the hope of seeing Him as He is we are exhorted to purify […]
How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown: This unsettling book challenges us to ask ourselves what kind of born-again experience we have had if it calls for almost no personal sacrifice, produces virtually no separation from the world, and breeds practically no hatred of sin.
How to Be Led By The Spirit! [mp3 series]
OSAS : Once Saved,Always Saved
POTS : Perseverence Of The Saints
One of the most important things I’ve ever read outside Holy Scripture is found in the autobiography of Frederick Douglass (who was a former slave in nineteenth-century America). He recalled the time when (as a slave to a married couple) the wife thought she would teach Frederick to read. When the husband found out,he was furious – he told her that if she taught Frederick to read they would no longer be able to keep him enslaved ; in other words,that passage taught me that lack of education is a mental PRISON. Frederick overheard what the husband said,and needless to say,made sure that from that point on he learned to read ! A withholding of education imprisoned many nineteenth-century people in terrible circumstances ; conversely,a lack of objective Bible knowledge also keeps some believers in complacent coziness this very day !
Here is something David said in the prologue to his book ‘Once Saved,Always Saved?’ – a book Michael has recommended in his own book,’Go And Sin No More.’ (See Chapter 3 Note 7) I believe this is actually one of the most important things David has ever said,as it reveals that OSAS is actually SUBJECTIVELY read INTO Holy Scripture – not OBJECTIVELY read FROM :
“I must add two observations from my own experience [David is an itinerant teacher,and has met many believers over the years]…most if not all of those who believe it [OSAS,POTS] do so because they were told to. They did not find it for themselves [in Scripture]…On the other hand,everyone I have met who has had to study the Bible without anyone’s help [i.e. influence !] has come to the conclusion that they will have to ‘keep it up’ if they are finally to reach heaven.”
(I can personally attest to that myself : when I read Second Covenant Scripture for myself – back in the eighties – I effectively and unknowingly vaccinated myself against OSAS,POTS and PRE-Trib rapture.)
I believe there are many cozy believers in Britain and America ; they are effectively kept in a cozy intellectual prison cell that has them thinking they have tickets to heaven (whether it be due to sentimental OSAS,or Augustinian POTS). Furthermore,many are unaware that mainstream Evangelical OSAS/POTS comes from men of violence ; and since when have violent men been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus ?
Jesus commanded His disciples to agape their enemies ; He also gave an acid test of what someone’s heart contains (Matthew 12:33-37) ; Paul told disciples to heap burning coals on the heads of their enemies. By contrast,in 1546 Calvin expressed a desire to have Michael Servetus put to death ; in 1553 burning faggots were heaped at Michael Servetus’s feet. If that is not bad fruit – what is ?
It is one thing for a disciple to bask in the love of God as he or she walks in the light (that’s scriptural) ; and another thing entirely to complacently wallow in filth (that can be deadly). While not denying there are indeed sincere,dedicated Calvinists who have served Messiah Jesus in the past ; as well as those who do so today – I nevertheless pose this rhetorical question : in the last 500 years,how many people have complacently died in filth – thinking they had ‘OSAS’ tickets to heaven in their backpockets (so to speak) ? Both John Wesley and John Fletcher fought against Calvinism in their day ; they knew POTS was a slippery slope to OSAS. (Ultimately – to Gehenna.)
I would personally like to see national NON-Calvinist leaders contending against POTS and OSAS in love – instead of trying to build unity at the expense of truth (note Proverbs 28:23 and Galatians 4:16). Would Paul have patted Hymenaeus on the back for the sake of unity ? Would John have let Diotrephes go unchallenged ? And how about Caiaphas – considering what he did,do you consider him SOUND ? What would Paul have said to and about Calvin,if Calvin had told Paul he wanted someone put to death ? (Need we ask !) On minor issues Paul said ‘let each one be fully persuaded’ ; on major issues he said ‘do not be deceived’ – objective,accurate salvation-ology is about as major as it gets !
Here is an article on the violence of John Calvin :
http://www.revivaltheology.net/1_cal_arm/ashes.html
Here are two video adverts for David’s two books on OSAS and POTS (they last a few minutes each) :
‘Once Saved,Always Saved ?’
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1191
‘The Road To Hell’ http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1206
Here is a video interview (of almost 29 mins) with David,about OSAS.
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/699?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fseries%2Fheroes-of-the-faith
Here is an audio discussion of OSAS/POTS that was part of a series David gave on the book of Revelation (lasts almost 58 mins).
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/357?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dinheritance%26x%3D37%26y%3D20
And hey – I think the very autobiography of Frederick Douglass is now available as a FREE Kindle book. Assuming it is the same book,download it onto your Kindle,computer,tablet or smartphone if you can ; and read the passage I mentioned ; indeed the whole book. I have heard that when slavery was first dealt with in America,around 6000 former slaves wrote autobiographies ; Frederick’s is one of the most famous.
http://www.amazon.com/Narrative-Life-Frederick-Douglass-ebook/dp/B000JQU7EO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1341912228&sr=1-1&keywords=frederick+douglassThe
In ‘Pagan Christianity ?: Exploring The Roots Of Our Church Practices’ Frank and George quote G.W.F.Hegel (a nineteenth-century German philosopher) – ‘What history teaches us is that men have never learned anything from it.’ (!)
In OSAS and POTS,I believe the Body has been fed a deja vu case of denying the consequences of disobedience (and consequent strengthening of hands to sin) : in Eden,God said ‘you will surely die’ – Satan denied it (Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:4) ; to Israel,God spoke of calamity that He would bring for disobedience – the false prohets denied it (Deuteronomy 28:15,47-50,Jeremiah 14:13-14 and Jeremiah 23:14-17) ; to Roman disciples Paul said that SAVED Gentiles will not be spared – in many Western ‘pulpits’ men deny it. Indeed,the key question that seems to frame the OSAS,POTS error is as follows : will God spare genuinely SAVED,grafted Gentile branches (Romans 11:11,17-22) ? Authentic salvation is the CONTEXT (v11) ; and ‘NO’ is Paul’s God-breathed answer ! (v21-22) Many disciples today have fallen for this deja vu error ; I believe many hands have been strengthened over the last 500 years.
It occurs to me that the only disciples who need OSAS or POTS to be true,are those who desire some materialistic,hedonistic or idolatrous filth – those who love what is on offer down here today,more than what is in store up above ; those holding unforgiveness towards someone ; those who are lukewarm. (They obviously need a ‘Filth Insurance Policy.’ One-tense ‘in-the-bag’ salvation would obviously be of tremendous importance to anyone in that position.)
To repeat : since when have men of violence been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus ?
Do read the article about John Calvin ; watch the brief video adverts (indeed,do get the books – remember,Michael has recommended one of them himself !) ; watch the free 29 min video and hear the free audio talk. Share the information with others.
It seems that the phrase “One saved always Saved” gives a oneway ticket to do whatever since our Lord die to take away our sin and defeat the emeny so their is no more sin in us because it just dissappears from us when we commit it. I don’t see how that is possible, to contiune in our old ways or ristrict oursevles from commiting them. I was told that when I was young, and I did not understand how that could be logical. I have read the Bible multiple times and cannot see anywhere we can continue in our old ways or the way of this world of lust,greed,lies watching things we know we are not suppose to watch,see or hear. Jesus said be holy! If anything else Jesus is showing us how to conduct ourselves through his action of love and not submitted to anything wrong, no violence just love and truth that came out of his mouth and many did not want to hear. He was showing how true believe and love to God is through our obeying our Father (GOD) in our walk in life. I have messed up alot in my life in the past and had in my head you only live once atituded I even did not want to read the bible because I knew alot of things I was doing were going to convict me and convict me it did to everything that I was doing and I was not saved just because I said I believe in Jesus. The Devil belives in Jesus too and runs away and know he is lord but yet does not change its life style its judgement is at hand. To believe is to obey all that Jesus said and commanded its our course of action and life style that needs to change if we truly believe in him. It is kind of common sense if we give a command to someone or order and that person is not reliable all the way than how can you put your trust in that person who does not change. We are saved always saved when we truly change our life to him and obey.
So it seems by this logic that nobody can be sure of salvation. We will never stop sinning as long as we are here in the flesh. Suppose I got saved today yet the Holy Spirit had not yet convicted me of a continual sin that I was involved in and I die before I can change. Do I not go to heaven? What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn’t have time to make a life change though he accepted Jesus right there. This really sounds like Lordship(works based) salvation.
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever…
It doesn’t say live for ever IF you do x or y, it says eat of this bread and live forever with no additional works.
John 10 28-30
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
How do you explain the above verses? Once we are saved our names are recorded in the Book of Life. No where in the bible does God say that our names can be or will be removed for any reason.
So, Mark, it is your position then that those who are in favor of capital punishment are unsaved. When a ruler bears the sword against evil doers, it may not be in vain, but it does tell us that that ruler is unsaved, along with all his supporters. Right?
Or could it be that they were once saved and enjoyed everlasting life for a time, but when they became convinced that capitol is not contrary to scripture, that they then lost their salvation?
And don’t forget, the charge against Servetus was blasphemy against the Trinity. Servetus taught that the trinity and deity of Christ were false doctrines. Now, if you are to be consistent with the reasoning you gave above, you must reject the doctrine of the Trinity; for it was trinitarians who put Servetus to death. And since when have men of violence been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus?
If you will not, on the basis of your own reasoning, reject the Trinity, can you explain: Why do you reject some of the teachings of Calvin based on his behavior, while you embrace others of his teachings?
It says we shouldn’t be like Esau who gave up his BIRTHRIGHT…
Those who believe in Christ have been BORN OF GOD, and our BIRTHRIGHT is to be led by the Spirit (all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God) – Esau forfeited his birthright and Jacob stripped it from him. Is this in Scripture? Yes.
In Revelation 2, Jesus tells the Philadelphian church “Hold fast your crown, LEST ANY MAN TAKE IT”
In Matthew 25, it says “take from him his talent, and give it to him who has 10 talents”
Paul says “not all who run the race are crowned” (God is the crown, according to Isaiah), and he weeps over people walking as if their belly were their god, and who are enemies of the Cross of Christ. He is talking about BROTHERS!
Jude talks about people who are “twice dead” – how do you die twice, without being BORN TWICE? Jude says certain men are as “wandering stars” – who are the “stars” (that wander), here? Believers! Abraham’s descendants! Those who have the FAITH of Abraham are the ones who are Abraham’s descedants – and his descendants would be as the stars (for number – but as the stars, nonetheless – as Daniel says, “those who turn them any to wisdom will shine as the stars of the firmament forever” and Jesus says, “then the righteous will shine forth as stars in the kingdom of their father”).
Bill sounds argumentative of his doctrine than what Scripture is saying. Dr Brown says heres what the context of this passage says, Bill runs away and says heres what my doctrine says..
Does not the holy spirit lead us into all rightness and if so can the spirit of g-d dwell in unholiness? or will he? so how can we continue in sin without are Lord correcting us? and if once saved always saved is true then why the need for corrected? think about it.
Peace love and joy..
As a Calvinist, I was concerned about the lack of interaction on the topic of this notion that God puts it out there, and then man must accept or reject salvation. I really think that this is the center of the issue. If, indeed, as Paul said, “It does not depend upon the man who wills or runs but upon God who has mercy,” then the charge can rightly be laid at the Arminian that he is saying God is a failure when a man does not persevere. The only way that this charge can be avoided is if man also plays a part.
The nature of man as dead in sin, and unable to come to Christ is also important, as it shows that, if it is up to man to accept salvation, he will never do it, because “the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God [Romans 8:7-8]. If man is dead in trespasses and sins, and it is up to him to receive salvation, then no one will ever be saved.
Yes, we are called to live a holy life; no question about it. The problem is that, everyone who relies upon themselves to do so will always fail. Luther said it best in his debate with Erasmus. Erasmus asked him, “Who will reform his life.” Luther replied, “Nobody! Nobody can!” It is only the grace of God alone that causes a man to change his life.
If these foundations are not laid, then discussion the perseverance of the saints is useless. I believe man must be holy, and that sin will not enter heaven. The problem is, I don’t believe that man can do anything about it. If it is left up to man, even in the sense of his daily choice to follow Christ, he will always fail. That is why all salvation including our life of holiness depends only upon the life-giving work of the Holy Spirit. It is that life giving work that grants us faith [Philippians 1:29] and repentance [2 Timothy 2:25] so that we do continue to fight sin.
The real problem is not the fighting of sin; it is what we rely upon when we fight sin. If God just throws something out there, and expects us to choose to fight sin, because the desire of our hearts are always evil all the time [Genesis 6:5], we will always end up failing. That is why, if true revolution and change are to come in the church, man must turn from thinking that his reform depends even partially on himself, to the notion that reform depends entirely on the work of the Holy Spirit.
Ask someone like me, who was dramatically changed by The Holy Spirit, only to feel like God couldn’t give me what I wanted. I got involved into witchcraft, and I would say I just dabbled in it, which I did because I thought Satan could give me what God couldn’t.
I’ve been through physical, mental, even spirtual torments (where my spirit felt extreme pain until I came back to my physical body). There were many times where demonic spirits would wake my spirit as my physical body slept. That can be scary! And I would beg Jesus to help me, but not once was I delivered in that instance. Why? Because I would not give up my sins. Repentance, turning away from sin, getting help from the body, becoming addicted to Jesus instead of porn (which was a way Satan held me into bondage to sin) is the only way.
2 Chronicles 15:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.
This is what sin will do. And you know what, Jesus knows exactly what this feels like, though He was sinless, He carried your sin, and because of sin He knows what it feels like to be abandoned by God!
Matthew 27:45-46
New King James Version (NKJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
He took it for us, in that we would never have to experience. And for all those who have fallen away, who might even be angry with God, feeling abandoned there is this Word:
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Do I believe in OSAS, NO. But do I believe you can overcome, YES! But it will take sacrifice, it will take prioritizing, you will have to ask what is most important to you, and does it give you peace, joy? In the big picture, and the bigget picture yet to be seen, what you have given up in place of God means nothing.
This was not a debate. Although I agree with Dr. Brown, Dr. Lowery was not permitted to speak. He was not given equal opportunity to express his viewpoint. Semantics, semantics, semantics in some areas. I am glad Jesus is the final judge. May he have mercy upon me a poor sinner.
One has to constantly let the Holy Spirit work in us (Grace – we really don’t deserve it) to help us live the Holy life. Faith gives us the strength and joy to walk along the narrow path, but we have to be willing partners to allow this to occur. To me, it’s not even close. God gives His Gift, which is Salvation, yes; but we must receive it fully and choose to live it out and transform our lives.
Mary, Dr. Brown was fair. William Lowery went off too many times into a different tangent and would not stick with the getting deeper in answering the questions. He got too preachy and did not discuss deeper on a theological level. He came off stubborn to work with Dr. Brown.
OSAS… I think there are 2 issues here: Salvation (past present and future) and sin. Once a person responds the Gospel of Grace (cf 1 Cor 15), they are then given commandments by their Lord on how to live. These commandments are mesnt to reveal to the Lord’s disciples exactly what Righteousness looks like: how we walk, talk, think and believe. This is the duty of ALL who are disciples of Messiah. If we continue to live as if sin is our master, then it is correct to question whether we KNOW who we belong to and WHAT He has done (is doing and continue to do). Righteousness is a gift. It is the very garments of Elohim; if we KNOW this, then we live as Righteous children of a righteous Father, even though we may fall – at times. If we do NOT know this, then our response to this Truth will reveal our understanding of whatMessiah has done for us.
“23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.” 1 Cor 9.
4 No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.5 Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” 2 Tim 2
The race is not finished until it’s finished. If one stops running he aint’ gonna win guys. If one leaves the righteous life in obedience to the Lord then he has no salvation, his faith is dead.
Mark 4: Parable of Sower and Soils.
13 And He *said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?
14 “The sower sows the word.
15 “These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.
16 “In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
18 “And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word,
19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 “And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
Matthew 13:Tares among Wheat
24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26 “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29 “But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”‘”
How clear is this, that those who fall apart in the snatch of sinful ways they head towards their destruction those who do not repent in rebellion against God. Those who do not listen and understand are not among the sheep of Jesus. But the obedient believers who keep the word and bring fruits and not tares, they are the sheep of Jesus and no one can snatch them away from eternal life. The unrepentant and rebellious pple are not his children because of their own accountability and works.
Jesse Hendershott,
I would simply ask the question as to why it is that you overcome but someone else does not? Why is it you came out of witchcraft and the occult, but your fellow witches did not?
Michael B Babbitt,
I would pose a similar question to you. Why is it that you “let the Holy Spirit work in you” and are a “willing partner” while someone else is not? If it is totally up to you to do this, then why did you do it and someone else did not? Was it because you were better? Smarter? More spiritual? Whatever your answer is, how does it not give you a reason to boast over the other person?
The problem is that synergism, in the final analysis, has to make salvation dependent upon man. Whether man is saved or not is dependent upon what man does. Not only does that blatantly contradict what Paul says [Romans 9:16], but it gives reason for boasting, because you were somehow better than the person who did not do their part.
Not only that, to both of you, if man must be a cooperative partner, how will he ever do so, seeing that every imagination of the desires of his heart are only evil all the time [Genesis 6:5], and that the mind set on the flesh is not able to please God [Romans 8:7-8]? If man only desires what is evil, then how will he ever desire to cooperate with grace?
This is the problem. I don’t believe that this view addresses the real reason people sin-the sinfulness of their heart. If we desire to see true change take place in a society, we must view that change as only coming from the Holy Spirit of God, with man playing no part, because of his wickedness. The underestimation of man’s wickedness, and the exalting of the will of man is dangerous, especially against systems of thought such as humanism.
I wanted to respond to a few things Marco wrote in post #3.
First off, while I reject once saved/always saved (and the doctrine of preservation of the saints also), I do not hold to the belief that someone will lose their salvation based upon some sin that the person did not have a knowledge of. I don’t even believe that someone will lose their salvation if they commit a sin and die before they have a chance to confess it. But I do believe that a habitual sin that someone does callously and without repentance can cause someone to lose their salvation.
…As to the verses you addressed:
You are correct that John 6:51 does not specifically say that eternal life is conditional upon remaining in Christ. And if John 6:51 was the only Scripture that addressed it, then I would believe in Once Saved/Always Saved and Perseverance of the Saints. But John 6:51 is NOT the only verse on the subject (which I will address later).
As far as John 10:28-30, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. The first half of the verse states, “And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish…” Now if you take this half of the verse away from the context of the prior verses, someone may conclude a person’s actions have no bearing on the security of their salvation after they are saved. But you can see from the prior verse that those He is speaking of in that verse are those that hear His voice and follow Him. Therefore, the logical conclusion you can take from this is that if someone chooses to no longer hear His voice and follow Him, that they are not included in the guarantee in the first half of John 10:28. You cannot view the first half of John 10:28 as an absolute guarantee regardless of a person’s choices unless you read that interpretation into the verse, because, taken in context, that is not what it says.
To reinforce this conclusion, we can look at John 3:36, “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.” Does Scripture indicate the first clause in this verse is absolute without the ability to be changed by a person’s change of heart but the second is not? If both clauses were absolute than how could anyone become a believer in the first place, since we all started out as nonbelievers? This Scripture only makes sense if each clause is only viewed as applying to a person as long as they abide within the requirements of that clause. John 10:28 similarly should be viewed as only speaking of those who abide by the requirements of the verse before it.
I also don’t take the second half of John 10:28 to mean anything in addition to what it says. If it was indicating you could not make a choice it would have stated that in addition to what it was saying. Again, you cannot take this verse away from the context. If you read all of John 10, you see that Jesus is talking though out the chapter about, “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold” and refers to this person as “a thief and a robber” and “a stranger”. He also speaks of “a hireling” and “wolf”. What it is speaking of is an outside force. Notice that not a single time in this sheep illustration through out the whole chapter does He ever speak about whether or not the sheep can make a decision to leave the flock (In fact, in Isa 53 it says that “all we like sheep have gone astray”. Through the whole chapter, He is talking about protecting the sheep from an outside force. Looking at the language used in this part of the verse, we will see that it is still speaking about that outside force, the Scripture states, “…neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” Now if I were to say that a child fell into a fire and I plucked him out of the fire that would make sense, wouldn’t it? But if I said I fell into the fire and then plucked myself out, that would sound a little weird, wouldn’t it? The verb “pluck” describes, not a first person action, but the action of an outside force. To imply this Scripture means anything besides that is to read into the verse more than it says.
And finally, you say, “Once we are saved our names are recorded in the Book of Life. No where in the bible does God say that our names can be or will be removed for any reason.”
Yet Rev 3:5 says, ” He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” This verse implies that it is possible for someone’s name to be blotted out of the book of Life or else there would be no point in stating that overcomers would not have their name blotted out.
As I mentioned in my last post that I would share these Scriptures, here are the some of the other Scriptures that seem to indicate that a Christian can reject their salvation are Matt 5:13 (salt losing it’s savor), Matt 24:12 (the love of many will wax cold), Luke 9:62 (putting your hand to the plow and then looking back), Gal 1:6 (they were so soon removed from Him that called them), 1 Cor 15:2 (unless you have believed in vain), 1 Tim 4:1 (some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits), 1 Tim 6:20-21 (some have strayed concerning the faith), 2 Tim 2:18 (they overthrow the faith of some), Heb 3:12 (lest there be an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God), Heb 12:15 (lest any man fail of the grace of God), Rev 3:1-6 (were once alive but now dead), Rev 3:14-22 (the lukewarm church that God will spit out).
Just a quick note: My big problem is with OSAS, not with the P in TULIP (although I’m not a Calvinist).
Adam, nice to hear from you again! How are your studies going?
Agree with #13 re salvation & sanctification.
Paul’s ‘adoption’ theology is a good place to see how grace overcomes ‘the law of sin and death’ and puts in a new ‘law written on our hearts’: inlaws instead of outlaws. Disobedient children are still children; Jesus knows His sheep; we are not the Judge; yet there still seems to be a dangerous line that can be crossed back into perpetual iniquity and damnation (the subject of this debate).
See Our State North Carolina July 2012 page 104 ff for a short secular take of Billy Graham’s ‘stature’ on this subject.
In Him, Ron M.
Hi Doc, however this OSAS thingy is caused and came from the same reformed calvinist approach of predestination. What is your take on the Paul’s couple of reference about “predestination” in his letters Romans, Cor, Ephesians? in brief?
Hey folks, I apologize for any way that I sounded contentious during my interview with Bill yesterday. I was not happy with months of Facebook interaction where I could not get a direct response to my questions and was not going to let that happen on the air yesterday. To whatever extent I failed to be gracious, please forgive me.
Adam,
The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities. There are inequalities of talent and abilities and gifts and one can always boast for whatever reason(s), if one serves the flesh. If one serves only Christ, one is only concerned on helping one’s neighbor to gain salvation. Paul could boast of his great sacrifices for Christ, but does not. He’s only concerned with service to the Lord.
Eternal Security DOES NOT SAY YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT. Whoever teaches that is crazy and doesn’t love God. If you are saved, you won’t continuously live a life of sin…you will sin because of your sin nature but if you’re in Christ, you won’t like it, you’ll repent because: Phil 2: 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Eternal Security is all over the bible. You can’t even decide to be saved, you aren’t good enough nor do you believe enough for scripture says: John 6: 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
I can honestly say that I have questioned Eternal Security, but I can not deny what I have read…..The bible clearly speaks of God’s Election…Romans8: 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
I still don’t understand everything but I feel much better knowing He called me, changed me and will keep me to the end. I am TOTALLY dependent on Him to keep me while I keep in mind that I seek to please Him. Even a natural relationship with a husband and wife teaches that if my husband is faithful to take care of me, protect me and provide for me- I feel bad when I sin against Him so I tell Him I’m sorry to HEAL the relationship eventhough he probably won’t leave me. I glad I don’t have to pave my way into Heaven. NONE of us would make it. But I do love God…when I sin against Him, I am sorry and I tell Him that and He is faithful that promised. But if a man continues a lifestyle of sin and says he is a Christian or a man “leaves the faith” the scriptures says he was never among the saved in the first place. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
***Let us ALL be careful to the teaching we receive…you and me…error is dangerous and gets so deeply engrained that its hard to accept the truth when it comes…..
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
By the way, in my church- that believes in Biblical doctrines of Eternal Security and Election…when we sin continuously, we are dealt with using church discipline, and if we go unrepentant of known sin, the person is removed from the congregation…does that sound like we are doing “whatever we want” and still believing we are saved??? I pray true reformed churches will be used in these last days to reveal the truth about the misinterpretations of what we believe. I want to continue to learn more, to have confidence in my Savior and what He has done, what I couldn’t do on my own.
Adam,
Your premise that man’s acceptance of G-d’s free gift of grace unto salvation is man centered fails the test when held to the light of Scripture. Paul is quite clear that the grace of G-d that brings salvation has appeared to all men; hence, the initiation has always begun with the LORD offering this enabling grace to us, wherein whosoever responds to Him, and continues therein, shall be saved.
There is a central message that holds man accountable for his actions that can ultimately result in the forfeiture of eternal life. This has been the consistent message of the gospel from the creation of man, in G-d’s conditional call for Adam to follow His command in the garden, to the final book of Revelation. The topic at hand focuses on the possibility of man forfeiting the salvation that has once been granted to him.
This being the case, if you would, please exegete the following passage for me.
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).
Shalom,
Brian
It’s a double blessing of salvation and forgiveness of sins for doing the work of bringing someone back to faith.
Salvatore,my contention is that follwers of Messiah Jesus follow Him – they care for their enemies.
No I do not embrace Calvin’s teaching ; when one is outside the writing of Holy Scripture,you are then on fallible territory. Therefore,and in the light of Mattheww 12:33-37 in particular,guardedly read the writings of those who agape their enemies. Michael L Brown and David Pawson are the finest teachers I have found.
The autobiography of The Heavenly Man is a good example.
I am an unregenrate Gentile myself ; as such,I usher you to the books,audio and video information I gave above. David Pawson (though fallible like everyone else) is one of the very finest Bible teachers.
The living God requires NINE YARD REPRESENTATION : 2 Timothy 2:2,Acts 5:20,Matthew 28:20 and Jeremiah 26:2. It seems that few teachers are willing to pass on both sides of the coin ; the sweet and the sour. David passes the warnings on to the same people Jesus did – authentic disciples.
The key question for OSAS and POTS advocates is this : once saved,always SPARED ? What did Paul say in Romans 11:11,17-22.
Do disciples really want both sides of the TRUTH ? Or a flesh-friendly TICKLE ? 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Donate around 15 minutes of your life to hearing two book adverts (advert hyperlinks given in first comment above). After hearing what David says,if you do not want to get the books,fair enough.
But do give an all-too-rare NINE YARD REPRESENTATIVE of Messiah Jesus 15 mins.
Re:#17
Michael,
THANK YOU! Have you spoken with William to seek his forgiveness?
Mark,
what does ‘unregenerate Gentile’ mean? What would it take to ‘generate’ you?
Boris, we’re all praying this is your testimony. You can be an awesome vessel for the LORD by ‘keeping the faith’.
In Him, Ron M.
Regarding post #24, Faith, I am glad that you and your church do hold church-members accountable for sin. This is what the teachings of the New Testament teach us to do.
I believe that is why Dr. Brown made the statement he did in post #18. He is focusing specifically on Once Saved/Always Saved as opposed to Perseverance of the Saints (or Eternal Security).
And while I agree that it is important to differentiate between these distinct beliefs, and while I also agree that the outcomes of belief in Eternal Security are not the same as the outcomes of belief in Once Saved/Always Saved, I still must contend that both beliefs are rooted in a mistaken understanding of the exact same Scripture verses. So it is extremely difficult to combat one without combating the other.
But even if it were possible to combat one without combating the other, I do not believe I should try.
If I believe there is a right interpretation to particular Scripture verses, I should be trying to help people to understand the right interpretation. I should not merely be trying to prevent one incorrect interpretation of a Scripture that causes bad results in favor of another incorrect interpretation that does not produce those same bad results.
You can look at posts #16 and 17 to see why I believe both Once Saved/Always Saved and Perseverance of the Saints (or more popularly called Eternal Security) are incorrect interpretations of Scripture.
Gene, re: #29, oh yes, of course. Everything is clear.
Regarding the post from Adam in #15, I would say that I agree with the doctrine of total depravity that Calvinists hold to. But unlike Calvinists, I believe that God has provided a way for every single person to come to Him. I believe that God has called everyone to Himself but that we have a free will to accept or reject that call. If we do accept that call, it is not due to any good in us, but only due to yielding to God’s Spirit.
I would answer with the following illustration. The whole world is being swept down the river of sin, the waters sweeping all humanity ever closer to the waterfall of eternal judgment. No matter how desperately we grasp at the banks of this river, we are incapable of pulling ourselves out of the deadly current that pulls us closer toward destruction. Yet we have an all-powerful rescuer. His name is Jesus.
Now does the one who accepts the outstretched hand by grasping hold of it save themselves? Is it according to their own works that they are saved? In the most extreme literal sense, the argument can be made that they were saved because they grasped hold of the outstretched hand. But who would really make that claim? That person had two choices, accept the help that was offered to them or continue down the path of destruction. Yet if they grasped the outstretched hand of the rescuer, they could do nothing but surrender to his help as he pulled them out. They could have no leverage against the slippery slope of the riverbank even after they take hold of the rescuer’s hand. They are totally dependent upon him to pull them out. It was through no work of their own that they were saved, but only by accepting the work of another.
I heard another illustration given that if someone gave me a check for a million dollars that will save me from bankruptcy, all I have to do is endorse and cash the check. Now if I go around saying I earned it and saved myself from bankruptcy simply because I endorsed it that, of course, would not be true. In fact, I would be ungrateful for even making that claim. Accepting a free gift is not earning it by works.
In the same way, our salvation and justification are not through any work of our own. I believe we have the ability to either accept or reject the redeeming blood of Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. The Israelites in Egypt also had a choice. The command was made to place the blood on the doorposts of their houses. Yet, they were not forced to do so. Those who did apply the blood weren’t saved through their own works; they were saved by allowing the blood of a lamb to redeem them from death. In the same way, New Covenant believers have also not been saved through THEIR own works; they (like the Israelites in Egypt) are saved by allowing the blood of THE Lamb to redeem them from death. Romans 4:4-5 seems to bear out that simply believing on Him is not considered works.
Dr Brown,
Just a quick note: My big problem is with OSAS, not with the P in TULIP (although I’m not a Calvinist).
Are you talking about the Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, anti-Lordship nonsense? I will never forget Dr. Grant Osborne, my hermeneutics professor, standing up in class and calling that stuff heresy. And if you know Dr. Osborne, that is saying something! Dr. Osborne has a great gift for good relations in inter-theological dialogue. When he calls you a heretic, you had better sit up and listen!
Adam, nice to hear from you again! How are your studies going?
Honestly, I have hit on hard times. I am finished with my coursework, but am stuck between my Master’s and doctoral program. It is a long story, but I can’t afford to take out any more student loans. The problem is, if you are not half time, you don’t get to have those loans deferred. So, I am stuck working multiple jobs in order to semi-keep up with the monthly payments, and trying to prepare for comprehensive exams at the same time. Not fun. I have tried applying for an extension and half time status, but haven’t heard anything back.
I am still trying to get better, though. In what very little spare time I have, I have been reading books on pragmatics, psycholinguistics, and discourse analysis [you can see the influence of Dr. VanGemeren], as well as trying to keep up with the ancient near eastern languages I already know. Cuneiform signs are a major problem. They are so easy to forget!
I am looking at doing my doctorate in linguistics at Ohio State specializing in the historical linguistics and semantics/pragmatics of the languages of the ancient near east. They don’t require a master’s degree, and they have an awesome financial package to help their students pay for the doctoral program, to the point where most of the students don’t have any debt from their doctoral program. Hence, I am wondering if it might not be best to leave my master’s degree unfinished, and go on for my doctorate.
Anyway, how is the ministry to the Jews coming? Do you have any new debates scheduled?
God Bless,
Adam
Boris, If you are the same Boris we all know here
your comment brings great joy to my heart!
Peace, Love and Joy to you:)
Adam,
Thanks for the updates.
As for OSAS, it’s not just the anti-lordship stuff; it’s the belief that no matter how you live (even if you once were serious about Jesus’ lordship), no matter how deeply you deny Him, if you were “once saved” you are “always saved.” Very dangerous indeed.
As for your studies, keep reviewing! It really is easy to forget the many different scripts. And remember: God will open the door for you according to His best plans. Don’t strive. Seek Him earnestly and He will guide your paths.
As for Jewish ministry — great! My newest book is The Real Kosher Jesus. Quite a story behind it.
mbabbitt, Brian,
I know Dr. Brown likes to stay on topic, so, if Dr. Brown wishes, we may have to move this to another thread. Still, a few comments:
The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities. There are inequalities of talent and abilities and gifts and one can always boast for whatever reason(s), if one serves the flesh. If one serves only Christ, one is only concerned on helping one’s neighbor to gain salvation. Paul could boast of his great sacrifices for Christ, but does not. He’s only concerned with service to the Lord.
The problem is that “free will” is a slippery term. I remember when I took theology, I had a teacher, Dr. Feinberg, who told me that, in the field of philosophical anthropology, there are four different senses in which man can be said to be free. I believe that man is truly making his choices, because he is doing exactly what he wants. In that sense, man’s will can be called “free,” even though what he desires to do may be exactly what God ordains.
Secondly, I agree with you that we should be serving Christ instead of the flesh, but the problem is, if you have a view of human freedom that says that salvation is partially up to man and his decision, when the question is specifically asked as to why one man made the decision and not the other, how can the focus be on anything but the flesh? Especially since you have already said that this decision is independent of any causal act from God.
Your premise that man’s acceptance of G-d’s free gift of grace unto salvation is man centered fails the test when held to the light of Scripture. Paul is quite clear that the grace of G-d that brings salvation has appeared to all men; hence, the initiation has always begun with the LORD offering this enabling grace to us, wherein whosoever responds to Him, and continues therein, shall be saved.
My concern is with the phrase “all men.” Words like “all” can undergo what is called “free enrichment.” For example, lets say that we are at church, and the pastor says the following:
I know we have various races in our congregation-Black, Hispanic, Asian…but here in our church, all people worship God together with one voice!
Clearly he does not mean that every human being on the face of the planet gathers in his church to worship God with one voice. His statement can be pragmatically enriched to:
I know we have various races in our congregation-Black, Hispanic, Asian…but here in our church, all [kinds of] people worship God together with one voice!
The problem with the citation of Titus 2:11, is that it is in that very context, although we are dealing with age and gender rather than race and ethnicity. Paul speaking to various different groups in the church [older men, older women, young women, young men, slaves, etc.]. In other words, he is going through and giving instruction in godliness to all the different classes of human beings in the church. Hence, if we follow the pattern stated above, the word “all” would be pragmatically enriched in the following way:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all [these classes of] men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Notice how it also fits well with the context, as, in the following verse, Paul speaks of this salvation teaching us to deny ungodliness, the very thing he was speaking of previously in the chapter, applying it to older women, younger men, etc.
There is a central message that holds man accountable for his actions that can ultimately result in the forfeiture of eternal life. This has been the consistent message of the gospel from the creation of man, in G-d’s conditional call for Adam to follow His command in the garden, to the final book of Revelation. The topic at hand focuses on the possibility of man forfeiting the salvation that has once been granted to him.
I don’t know how to read that, other than as a statement that we are still under the Adamic covenant. If that is the case, then, in what sense, does Christ hold a better covenant than Adam? Have you not just destroyed the whole apologetic argument of Paul in Romans 5, and the author of the book of Hebrews?
Yes, I believe that man must persevere. However, the reason why I persevere is not because of anything in me, but because of what Christ did for me on the cross 2000 years ago:
Hebrews 10:10-14 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
I am perfected once *for all time* by the sacrifice of Christ. Thus, if I do stray from the faith, it will only be for a time, so that I might learn the futility of life in that sin, and the power of the cross of Christ will always bring me back, if I am a true believer.
This being the case, if you would, please exegete the following passage for me.
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).
Simple. Not everyone who professes belief in the truth is saved. Hypocrisy is all over the church. This verse only touches the anti-Lordship, cheap grace folks who think that professing the truth is all there is to the Christian life. However, if you recognize the deceptiveness of your own heart, you will realize that you can claim that you are a follower of Christ, and not actually be one. As Peter says, we must:
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
And Paul says:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test?
This only works if you believe salvation is nothing more than a tip of the cap to God. If salvation is a transformation of the heart, brought by the Holy Spirit alone, that produces continual growth in grace, and that is made certain of its final perseverance by the death of Christ. Such a view of salvation allows for the possibility of false faith, and false profession.
God Bless,
Adam
Yes, folks, let’s stay on the topic of “once saved always saved” as much as possible, so if things broaden into Arminian-Calvinism debates, please try to return to the main theme. Thanks!
Mark Phillips,
I would be very careful about that line of reasoning. For one thing, those who have studied church history have told me that the situation with Servetus is not as simple as you or any of the other articles would like to make it. There is the whole issue of the state church, and the fact that Calvin, not only tried to befriend Servetus by risking his life for him many times, but also the fact that the man was condemned to die by the state, and not by Calvin. Calvin, in fact, was not even a citizen of Geneva at this time period! While he had a vote, he had to vote according to the law, and the law stated that heresy was a crime, and that heretics had to die.
Still, let us assume that Calvin did what was wrong here. Synergism has likewise had its share of men who did things that were wrong. For example:
Roman Catholic leaders during the middle ages were synergistic,
Roman Catholic leaders during the middle ages engaged in crusades and inquisitions in which they killed their enemies.
Therefore, synergism is wrong, because its roots are found in the murder and slaughter of thousands of unbelievers in the crusades.
Now you have just thrown Dr. Brown to the very same argument you used.
The problem is that people can say they believe true propositions, but are acting hypocritically, because they do not believe them in their heart, to the point where it changes the way they act and behave. Still, it does not change the truthfulness of the propositions. I think both Calvinists and Arminians should cut out that kind of rhetoric. There have been monergists who have done bad things, there have been synergists who have done bad things. The issue is which view is consistent with the scriptures, and consistent with itself.
God Bless,
Adam
Dr. Brown,
Yipe! That is insane. Not that I don’t struggle with certain sins, as any young person today does, especially with all of the sexually charged images around me. Still, I believe I have to do just that: struggle. I can’t make peace with sin, but must fight it day by day. If I fall, I get back up and keep fighting.
While these people might not claim to be part of the non-Lordship camp, I don’t know how this position would not logically reduce down to the non-lordship position. If Jesus Christ is truly Lord, then doesn’t he have the right to make demands on your behavior? If he does not, then in what sense can we call him “Lord?” As Jesus said:
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
Also, thanks for the advice! It is always important for me to listen to what those who have trodden this path before have to say. And I can certainly see how you are right. The temptation is to take matters into your own hands, rather than trust in God. There are times when you feel like you will never hold that Phd in your hands, especially given all the non-academic obstacles that I have had thrown my way. However, as someone once told me, whatever doesn’t kill you will only make you stronger!
God Bless,
Adam
ron david metcalf
Mark,
what does ‘unregenerate Gentile’ mean? What would it take to ‘generate’ you?
Boris, we’re all praying this is your testimony. You can be an awesome vessel for the LORD by ‘keeping the faith’.
In Him, Ron M.
Ken
Boris, If you are the same Boris we all know here
your comment brings great joy to my heart!
Peace, Love and Joy to you:)
Response: You guys are jumping the gun as they say. Just because I know how to answer Brian’s question doesn’t mean I believe the answer. I responded to the question because I didn’t think anyone else on this blog knew the “correct” answer. My testimony is this: You can’t lose something you never had. There are no such things as an afterlife or souls. We are all finite biological organisms. Christianity’s promise/threat of an afterlife is as false as any lie ever told on this planet. Belief in an afterlife leads to all sorts of escapist and life avoidance issues as any unbeliever could easily see just from reading the comments on this thread.
As for Jewish ministry — great! My newest book is The Real Kosher Jesus. Quite a story behind it.
Response: What IS this story Dr. Brown? What are the sources for your book exactly? Why it’s the Bible of course. That’s because outside of the Bible there exists not one shred of “information” about Jesus Christ. So all you’ve done is rehash what the Bible already says. Yet amazingly people will pay money to read such a book anyway. Jesus Christ is an invention of Greek speaking gentiles, which is why the Jews of the first and second century never heard of such a person. Kosher Jesus. Sure. How come Jesus quoted the Greek version of the OT rather than the Hebrew version? The Bible has Jesus the Jew speaking Greek to orthodox Jewish rabbis. No wonder they didn’t like him.
The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities.
Response: People believe in the metaphysical brand of free will because it feeds their fragile egos. Believing in free will means that we don’t understand the antecedent and deterministic as well as the quantum-mechanically random causes of our actions and decisions. At the quantum level we are all just robots made up of colonies of cells. All of our decisions are the result of the structure and connections and chemicals in the brain and could be predicted by a computer or if God actually existed, within the limits of quantum uncertainty.
Gene
Re:#17
Michael,
THANK YOU! Have you spoken with William to seek his forgiveness?
Response: A few years ago Dr. Brown invited me to be a guest on his show for an hour. I declined the invitation several times but finally relented and came on the show. We did an entertaining and informative show for the listeners that got a lot of comments on the blog afterwards. On the show Dr. Brown thanked me for being such a charming and informative guest and complimented me for the tone of my dialog. Then the next day on the air he blasted me for not being aggressive enough on the show among other things. I was banned from commenting on the blog and had no way to rebut or answer the accusations Dr. Brown hurled at me after doing the show. I don’t expect Dr. Brown to ever seek my forgiveness because I’m quite sure he doesn’t think he did anything wrong. I forgave him anyway because I realize that his basis for morality and ethics is subjective to the extreme.
Jesus gave warnings during his time here as a man. There is a line that we do not want to cross. Nevertheless, I believe that the grace of God is greater than we could ever imagine.
Once Saved Always Saved is a very dangerous thing as Dr. Brown has stated.
HERE IS THE PROBLEM I HAVE;
Calvinists state that if a person is saved, then they are always saved, and they if somehow they “leave” or “backslide completely” then they were never really saved in the first place.
NOW, my problem is, if someone has been “saved” and they DEMONSTRATE the fruit of the spirit, works, and live and lead Godly holy lives, and they show complete submission to God and to his will, and they fall away THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE? How then were they able to obtain the fruit of the spirit without their salvation and live a Godly life if they were not truly saved?
The Apostle Paul himself said that he could be a castaway.
By God’s mercy and grace we will make it to be with him.
The Light Spectrum model has worked well for me, except for ‘the synagogue of satan’. So first we have to distinguish between the True and counterfeit. The latter is like a vertex or whirlpool drawing everything into it in destruction, like the very big black holes observed by astronomy. The OT calls this the the bowl of Jerusalem turned upside-down (can’t hold anything good). But going to the very small, Light itself (a seed), if you complete the circle of the rainbow, you find Red= outer court, Yellow= inner court, Blue= sanctuary (Temple, holy place; blue being the hottest flame, but also water from two volatile elements= H2O). So if you’re In the Light, you are Saved; but there is also ‘outer darkness’ to those who have had knowledge of the Truth, but who won’t believe. So, to walk down the seven steps back into the world would be a deliberate process. ‘Riding the fence’ is a much simpler model; falling to one side or the other more accidental. Elihu in the book of Job says GOD gives everyone at least two or three chances; this would be the big attention-getters beyond everyday persuasion. There are a lot of hard-headed people out there (I raise my hand); so the Holy Spirit must instruct us on what will reach the heart. Serving GOD has not been easy, but I have found Purpose; it doesn’t make sense to me how someone would think they could find favor with the One who made them by doing this or that.
In Him, Ron M.
I continually marvel at your amazing patience with some very difficult callers. But, it’s nice to see you have a “limit” and you were almost (but not quite) there with your “guest” pastor on the subject of “Once Saved, Always Saved.” You were NOT imagining it. Every time you, OR a listener would introduce a relevant scripture, the “guest” Pastor became agitated and wanted to quickly go somewhere else. (The young man who introduced Rom. 11:22 made a valid point). Typically, it appeared, your guest sought refuge, not in another scripture but in the “logical” (?) construct of his theological position. THIS is what makes it difficult to try to “discuss” scripture with those who hold unscriptural positions. They doggedly cling to positions which are NOT scriptural. “My mind is made up! Don’t confuse me with (the scriptures).” Your frustration was shared by us, the listeners, I assure you. The most frustrating part is when these individuals come from denominations/churches which maintain they are “strict” interpreters of the scripture. Hang in there, my dear brother, He never promised a rose garden, only a good harvest!
Adam,
Upon your reply, you noted that “all men” found in Tutus 2:11 cannot be fully understood in your contextual meaning unless you insert, (these classes of) men. I do understand that this the classic Calvinistic approach to various scriptures (i.e., 1 Timothy 2:4); hence, I find this kind of eisegesis to rest on a shaky platform – something that even Charles Spurgeon refused to do. However, I would be glad to have this discussion with you in depth at another time, and on a different thread.
I found your exegesis of James 5:19-20, to be a bit exaggerated and totally out of context in your interpretation. You said, ” Simple. Not everyone who professes belief in the truth is saved…” Thus implying that the context of this verse is speaking to one never having salvation in the first place. James writes:
“Brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back…”
This letter is addressed to those who are of the household of faith, and the important phrase to be noted is that “one turns him back…” How can you come back to a place that you have never been? James is clearly warning of the possible peril of a believer turning from the faith once obtained into a lifestyle of sin, which ultimately would result in the forfeiture of eternal life. The brother turning him back would save his “soul from death,” thus identifying the loss of salvation that he turned away from. N.T., Southern Baptist, scholar, A.T. Robertson, said of this passage that it is, “The soul of the sinner won back to Christ…” It is evident that one has to take great strides to imply that this passage says otherwise.
I previously noted a thread (#25) from Genesis to Revelation positing the position that G-d’s dealings with man have always been on a conditional basis. Your claim that I have destroyed the meaning of the new covenant is baseless simply because salvation has always been by grace from which G-d thus initiates, along with the condition of man’s acceptance unto obedience leading to salvation. Thus, you cited the book of Hebrews in contrast to my point; however, this actually substantiates my position of a conditional salvation established in this wonderful new covenant.
“And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9). (Conditional indeed!)
Not only that, but you cited several verses specifically from Hebrews 10. In doing so, I would like to take your citation a step further, as it would be important to note that seven times the author uses inclusive language in his writing up to verse 26, and ten times thereafter. This indicates that the writer was undoubtedly speaking to fellow believers.
(Vs.10) “By that will ‘we’ have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
(Vs.15) “But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to ‘us’…”
(Vs.19) “Therefore, ‘brethren,’ having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,”
(Vs.22) “Let ‘us’ draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith…”
(Vs.23) “Let ‘us’ hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering…”
(Vs.24) “And let ‘us’ consider one another in order to stir us love and good works.”
(Vs.25) “Not forsaking the assembling of ‘ourselves’ together…”
(Vs.26-27) “If ‘we’ deliberately keep on sinning after ‘we’ have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of G-d.”
Once again, Adam, since you believe that salvation is unconditional to the believer and that it is impossible for a follower of Christ to forfeit eternal life, I would appreciate a concise exegesis of verse 26, seeing that the author posits the possibility of the forfeiture of salvation to perdition, to any “Christian” who turns away from following after the Lord into a sinful lifestyle.
Shalom,
Brian
So what about somebody who began the Christian journey, on his way to everlasting glory, to be with Christ in his Church which shall be forever preserved in the presence of the King eternal?
What if he should fall away, or is that not at all possible?
Certainly he may fall at times and by God’s grace get back up again. He might at times become confused, disoriented, or seem to be lost for a moment, and find his way back on the right path with the help of his guide, the help of the holy Spirit.
But what of those who once having began in the truth, if they should be overcome by evil to such a measure that they abide there in it?
What if they should die in their many sins? What if they forgot they were once made clean and now don’t seem to know the difference between something clean or something unclean?
What if they don’t know of their wretched condition?
Would it be because they forgot the right way after so long a time walking the wrong way?
Or is that not at all possible?
What about the one who presently rejects every truth he hears that would shed light upon his dark path….is he a sheep or a goat…presently?
And what if he should die in that present condition, being one who no longer would hear what is right?
What if he in the twinkling of an eye, should appear before the Lord? Would he still be in that condition?
If so, what then?
Or is that simply not at all possible? Could such a thing simply not happen?
But what if it did happen? What would be the consequences of it?
The Lord said he would separate the sheep from the goats, didn’t he? (Matt 25:32)
If a Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit, and demonstrates the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then later on lives in such a way that Calvinists will say they were never saved in the first place, isn’t that blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit? Because you have to deny that the Holy Spirit was ever at work in their life. Isn’t that blasphemy?
Being saved seems to indicate one will be doing what the Lord says. Matt 25 / I Sam 25.
When I think through any sin, especially the ones where we have known better but didn’t do better, it does seem to be blasphemy. Maybe it was simply rebellion. But what if we walk through a situation of rebellion, calling things as they are or at least as best as we can see what they are?
Maybe every sin is blasphemy. All evil is somehow connected isn’t it? One thing is connected to so many other things.