Today is a special, caller-driven day on the Line of Fire! We are asking all people who are passionate on one side or the other about whether or not to celebrate Christmas to call in and share their views! So instead of just sending us emails and links, call and share them with everyone! This is sure to be a lively show!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Number One: Whatever you do, do it for the glory of God. Number Two: Be fully convinced in your own heart and mind about what you do. Number Three: Don’t get caught up with the spirit of the world, whatever you do. Number Four: If you choose NOT to celebrate Christmas during this time of the year, glorify Jesus in an appropriate way, so that you add, rather than take away.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Whatever you do or don’t do with Christmas, let us stand back in awe and recognize that God sent His Son into the world to save us from our filth, sin, and destruction, to take our place, so that we might join with Him forever! Joy to the World!
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Bo,
We are all in agreement about not engaging in pagan practice but its how you define whats pagan means and how you connect it to Christmas is the issue that is incorrect.
Ben KC,
If I answer Dr. Brown, will you answer me?
Shalom
Bo, thats up to you and I to decide. But dont be hypcritical next time by trying to put someone on the spot when you yourself are doing the same. I have my valid reasons why I ignore some questions. If you want to assume I dont have the answers like you accused me last time, go right ahead.
Ben KC,
I think you do have the answers but they are damning to your position. I have my reasons for not answering Dr. Brown. I is not being hypocritical to ask you to answer questions concerning a topic you brought up if I do not answer questions that are of no bearing on the subject and that are intended for character assassination. I really want answers for the sake of the argument.
Shalom
Ben KC,
It appears that your “valid reasons” to not answer is to evade the issues so that the argument will be side tracked and/or forced to be about what you deem important. It is only fair for you to allow the other side of the argument to have access to full disclosure and cross examination for the sake of truth. Being coy and evasive may make the argument go in your direction, but it is a tactic of hiding the whole truth.
Shalom
Bo,
Once again, I will not engage your arguments. Your position is dangerous, it misinterprets the words of Jesus and the NT, and I will not repeat what has been repeated to you hundreds of times over. Paul’s words to Titus are actually apt at this point: “But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile” (JNT).
And BTW, the first believers DID celebrate the birth of Yeshua, spending four chapters of the Gospels celebrating it! (Matt 1-2; Luke 1-2)
I’ll just ask you one more time if you are part of a fellowship of believers and in accountable submission to other leaders. That’s a question that just about everyone else posting here can answer with a quick and easy, “Yes, of course,” since we love the Word, love the Lord, and love His Word.
Bo, so you admit to know I have the answers but you accused me before of not having the answers? Sounds contradictory. Also, since you admit to know that I have the answer, you still want to conclude that you know my answers will damn my position? Wow. I guess Ill call you Bo the psychic. BTW, do you happen to have a 800 number for that business?
Interesting that you deny being hypocritical. Yes, its hypocritical when you try to put me on the spot saying Im not answering your questions when you have done the same when Dr. Brown asked you a question twice. You can call it “character assassination” but I call it exposing the hypocrisy in your attempt to provoke a response.
Anyways, lets get back on the subject here.
Sorry. The end of the last line should read, “love the Word, love the Lord, and love His Body.”
Dr. Brown.
Emphasizing to love the Word twice is good too 🙂
Ben KC,
Funny that you can spend so much time discussing why we are not discussing what the topic is, and still not answer the questions that I asked that are quite on topic…and then have the audacity to insist that we get back on topic.
Shalom
Ben KC,
Are you being civil?
Shalom
Dr. Brown,
Did you see the post about birthdays?
Shalom
Its funny that still trying to provoke someone to answer your question but you can even answer Dr. Browns question.
I meant “cant” on post 412
Im signing off. Ill respond when I have time.
Bo, please repost your question that you think I have not answered. Try to simplify your question and try not to add too many questions in one post. Sometimes I can miss those questions.
Dr. Brown,
What is to interpret in this statement? It just says what it says.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I answered part of your question thusly:
“Yes our meetings are like Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14:26 and on the days that YHWH says to keep instead of adhering to doctrines and commandments of men that turn from the truth.”
As for the rest of your question, yes of course, I am submitted to other leaders and in fellowship with local believers. Of course you would not submit to the leaders that I submit to and I would not submit to the leaders that you submit to…because we think that each other is in a fellowship with leaders that go against the scripture. How much difference did the question you asked or the answer I gave make? Did it help this discussion?
Shalom
Ben KC,
I post again:
Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Exodus 32
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Was it up to the individual to in the verses above? What part of the celebration would have been left if they had removed all uncommanded things from it? How can we, in light of the above passages, celebrate a “holy day” on a noncommanded day in a noncommanded way and it not be against what is commanded? If we proclaim a holiday to YHWH–or go along with those that have–that He has not sanctioned and use symbols that He has not specified, how are we doing anything different than they? Were there any well meaning individuals in the camp that joined in the celebrating that were not sinning by doing so?
In your above post, it seems that you do not recognize that to not celebrate YHWH’s commanded holy days is going against scripture by diminishing from what He commanded.
Shalom
Bo,
Fine. Let’s the Word speak for itself rather than you trying to interpret it or me trying to interpret it. Glad to it! I embrace the words of Jesus and by His grace, seek to live by them.
As for your answer to my other question, thanks for responding, although I find it odd, given your response, that you didn’t respond the first time around.
While I’m sure we have much in common, and while you are quite welcome to post, and while I’m sure there are some good points you have to make, I want to reiterate that I hold your teachings and interpretations and applications of Scripture to be dangerous and divisive, and I am concerned that as the years go on you will become more extreme in your views, more judgmental of the rest of the Body, and less and less Yeshua focused.
I AM ASKING YOU NOT TO RESPOND TO THIS POST BUT SIMPLY TO TAKE THESE THINGS TO THE LORD IN PRAYER, AS I AM GIVING YOU A SERIOUS EXHORTATION. (If you simply want to acknowledge this post and say you’ll be praying, fine; but overall, you’ve been free to post hundreds and hundreds of times, to the point of dominating many a thread, so I’m being quite fair with you at this point.)
As for the other discussions you’re having here, feel free to continue them.
And for the record (in case anyone missed it), I could care less about Christmas and I don’t personally celebrate the birth of Jesus on a specific day of the year, let alone Dec. 25th.
It is difficult to see outside of the box that we have lived in.
“The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.”-Albert Einstein
I wonder if this is true of us also. I wonder if we have dared to even considered if it might be true.
Shalom
Dr. Brown,
I acknowledge your post and would like you to know that the post below it was not in response to it.
Shalom
Dr. Brown,
Let me thank you once again for letting me and others post their views freely, even though they are not in line with your own. You have been quite fair.
Shalom
Dates/holidays are part of how the pagans worship their deities. We are not to inquire as to how the heathen worship and do so to YHWH. He has revealed the special dates of His choosing to us. Messiah and the early believers kept these dates.
Christmas was not adopted or proclaimed by those that penned scripture. The NT uses YHWH’s appointed times as reference points in communicating with the early assemblies. The NT does not reference the pagan calendar, even though it was the calendar that the people groups being written to would have used before conversion.
Paul exhorts the Corinthians to keep the feast of Matsah/unleavened bread. He tells them about his time frame of coming to them in reference to Shavuot/Pentecost.
Holy (set apart) people do the set apart things that YHWH instructs them to do. Part of being set apart is not doing things that the nations we live in do. Especially religious things that they do. If we do not keep the set apart days that YHWH specifies and do keep the days of our culture, nation, and the pagan, to whom are we setting ourselves apart?
It is our duty to find out about YHWH’s wishes in regard to holiness and perform those things that He has designed to set us apart to Him.
2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Christmas is an unequal yoke with idolatry. We need to come out. Even the name Christ-mass should be upsetting to a protestant. The mass is an idolatrous sacrifice. It is the Messiah being perpetually sacrificed instead of one time for all. The mass is preformed daily in honor of different “saints”. Christ-mass is the day the mass is done in honor of Christ. He gets the same honor as Peter, John and Patrick in this regard.
YHWH’s feasts are all about Messiah and His body/bride. They are a love story. They are a remembrance of what YHWH has done for us and a look into the future anticipating what He will do for us.
We can invent our own holidays, adopt the pagan’s idolatrous days, or simply accept our redeemer’s Holy Days. Only one of these systems sets us apart to YHWH. To mix YHWH’s appointed times with the other concepts is lukewarmness at best…in my opinion.
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for having the character to reply to my strong warning in such a humble way. That’s great to see and a good example to others.
BenKC
rachael,
The Christmas holiday we celebrate is not rooted or connected in whatever you believe its rooted in.
So WHY choose the made up christmas dec 25th OVER the biblical calendar? The point is still being missed. The focus has not been to talk about the REAL calendar that GOD HIMSELF ORDAINED! It really has been more about how to keep redeeming the pagan holidays.
THere is no scripture that supports what you are saying about these holidays. THAT IS WHAT IS DANGEROUS!
I don’t think the attitude is against beleivers celebrating. BUt scripture does not support this celebration. In the NT they were not celebrating HIS birth on christmas. THey would have been celebrating it on the Feast of Tabernacles. EMMANUEL came to SUKKAH with us. Not xmas with us.
BO couldn’t have presented all this any better. But it has fallen on deaf ears.
Dr. Brown says:
(I’ve not seen one syllable from anyone there that indicates that there’s anything in the least bit pagan about believers reading the opening chapters of some of the Gospels, singing hymns glorifying the Savior’s coming into the world, and proclaiming His lordship at one particular time of the year.)
Of course there is nothing wrong with reading the scriptures about HIS birth and of course they aren’t pagan. For one the believers there were not celebrating HIS BIRTH on a pagan calendar. THEY were just getting all that pagan stuff thrown out then. They were following in the redeeming teachings of Y’shua. DID Y’shua tell that woman at the well to stay on her pagan mountain? NO, HE told her to leave because she didn’t know what she was doing. This is N.T.
WHat about all the other scriptures offered that shows the N.T. bleievers doing the Biblical calendar of Genesis 1:14?
The point is still being missed!
The only point is to look at the biblical origins and see if what you are doing is found in GOD’S ordained words. THen it is your choice.
Once I saw this I thought everyone could see and I felt upset that they didn’t. A WISE family told me this:
GOD is looking for volunteers.
Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power
Ben KC, Tom, Dr. Brown, Rachael and David Roberts,
Shabbat Shalom
@Tom,
“Now that is a textbook case of ripping a verse out of context. Just sayin’, man.”
Actually, it’s in keeping with first century rules of interpretation. The point of the verse is that God hates needless destruction. Whenever God destroys, it is because of the good that will come after. If destruction has to be done, there must be a need for it. Chopping down a tree for a winter solstice festival is not a good enough reason. God gave us permission to do lots of things – Christianising paganism is not one of them.
Todah BO,
Shabbat Shalom
This forum is full of DARKNESS. People here are led by the spirit of Satan. They are full are anger and hatred. There is no love in them.
2Timothy 14
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
So, My News Years Resolution is to stay out of this forum which is not ordained by the Holy Spirit. There is no fruit of love, joy, peace, goodness, gentleness. Very, very unkind and rude people.
These people Lord are nothing like you. They are terrible witnesses for your kingdom.
REPENT and humble yourselves before Adonai. Stop your ugly fighting. Accept Jesus in your heart as your LORD and SAVIOR. Quit following Satan. Follow Jesus.
Help me Lord find a Christian Forum where your people fellowship and are gather together. This place is not good. Where there is unity. Who truly love you and worship you.
This forum is filled with DARKNESS. Sad, really sad.
I am out.
Bo, its a very busy week so dont want you to think I have forgotten.
Debbie,
Please remember that personal accusations are not permitted here on this forum. I don’t read many of the posts, but if I do spot one that violates our policy, I will point it out. So, it is simply out of place to write, “This forum is full of DARKNESS. People here are led by the spirit of Satan. They are full are anger and hatred. There is no love in them.”
Hey folks, with the new year upon us, I need to return to my normal custom of very selective interaction here on the blog, since, first of all, it is mainly for all of you to post your views (within the guidelines, of course) and, second of all, because of time and commitments don’t allow me to post more. So, if you address me directly and don’t get a response, it’s either because I didn’t see the post or because I wasn’t able to respond. I made an exception to my normal schedule because of my esteemed friend Yisroel Blumenthal posting here, and I still owe him some interaction on major posts (in another thread), periodically, but beyond that, with rare exception, I will be back to my normal limited posting — and I’m sure all of you will do just fine without me here a lot. And keep listening to the shows each day, since I’ll surely address lots of relevant issues all the time.
Blessings on your new year in Yeshua our Messiah and Lord!
I intended to participate in this thread’s discussion earlier this month, but got too busy with other pressing stuff.
I didn’t celebrate Christmas this year (and actually haven’t for about 4/5 years now).
I have always felt out of sync with the Roman holidays, and this was well before I had researched them. Maybe I inherited that sense of discomfort from my upbringing, which was in a off-the-mainroad sect of Presbyterianism known as the “Nameless Church”, the “2×2’s”, and most popularly, “The Truth,” started by one Irish minister named William Irvine in the late 1850’s. All holidays were considered “worldly” and so participation was minimal, if at all.
I remember being in a Christmas production in elementary school and holding up a red candle while we sang for our parents. I don’t remember anything else about this event, except for the the distinct recognition, as I held the candle, that I was uncomfortable and conflicted. I liked the colors, the lights, the festivity, but I noticed that my parents never made much ado over Christmas. It might have slipped unnoticed in our household were it not for the emphasis in my school life. Mom did give us a present apiece on that morning, but there was never a tree, lights, or other customs. I didn’t actually feel deprived though. But that ambivalence about Christmas seems to have been a constant in my life.
I did try when my children were little, to emphasize Jesus and giving, but I never felt properly prepared for the expenses. I came to understand that seasoned holiday-keepers start preparing “the day after Christmas” when everything goes on sale. I wondered at the wisdom of working at preparing all year long for a one-day event. I felt there was something a little neurotic about needing to have a “picture-perfect” Christmas. I knew of couples who split up because of the failure of one to properly dazzle the other with a superlative gift. There were always stories in the news of people comitting suicide from the sense of personal failure brought about by the culture’s too-high expectations. I remember one woman telling me the pathetic story that when she was a child she thought Santa hated her because he never brought her anything. And over the years, I actually grew to dread and despise that holiday and everything associated with it, until one day I declared myself literally free of all the national “days”.
No one would tell me when to think and feel, I determined, or when to express this or that emotion. I would step off the treadmill. But besides the sense of great personal inconvenience the holidays represented, I also had a nagging sense that God was looking down on earth and seeing the foolishness of humanity. Seeing how we allow part of the world to starve while we, absorbed in consumerism, spend so much money (often money we don’t literally have yet) on things we will later throw out or replace for newer, more stylish versions.
That first year of liberation was not easy. I was called a “Grinch” by a beloved family member. But I threw that that off by replying that the only way someone can be a Grinch is if they believe in all those Christmas lies. If you don’t believe, then there are no Grinches, because really, Grinches don’t even exist. And my family does know me, and they know that when I get a ‘bee in my bonnet,’ they might as well leave me alone about it.
What I’ve learned is that I LOVE Winter. My oppressed feelings about Christmas had completely overshadowed the whole season, and I used to get so depressed at that time. Once I said “no more” to all the standard holidays (except Thanksgiving), I found myself appreciating the passage of time in its natural seasons without the old apprehensions. It IS a wonderful feeling to not have the old stresses. I began to feel more in tune with nature. The holidays felt completely out of sync with the seasons. New Year’s in early Winter?? Rushing around the country in late December?? The whole thing seemed contrary to simple common sense, as well.
But when I read the Old Testament and first truly believed in the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, it began to matter to me more what God thought and thinks about our holidays. So I began to research their origins. By now nearly everyone knows that our standard American holidays are customs rooted in the ancient idolatries of the nations, especially Rome. The real question seemed to be, “can these be transformed and kept for the glory of God?” There are good points on both sides of that argument. Paul in Romans 14 seems to conclude that whatever we do, we should do it for the glory of God, so someone could hang their hat on that, and believe that the holidays could be so transformed. I do think Deuteronomy 12, the whole chapter, provides the stronger argument against that, in principle; but nonetheless, everyone should be convinced in his own mind, and we need to let them make that decision for themselves without standing in judgment of them.
I never had a true love-affair with Christmas from childhood, as many have. Had I, perhaps I would be searching for scriptures to justify my continuation of it. I don’t worry or stress over it in the least anymore, however. I am a spectator, not a participant, and I find it the most comfortable position to be in. I still prefer Winter unadorned.
What I do feel “in sync” with are the Feasts of the Lord, covered in Leviticus 23, and this sense of feeling ‘in tune’ with them on an even biological level really surprised (and delighted) me. But even there, I won’t burden myself with traditions that are not my own or that don’t originate from the Bible.
This was the first year I kept Hanukkah, and I didn’t go “all out”. I had a Hanukkiah and I lit, in no special order, one each night (except for the night I forgot). I liked thinking of this time in a more New Covenant context, thinking about how Paul described our bodies as being the temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:13-20) and focusing on the cleansing and rededicating of my personal temple. Of course, one doesn’t need a special day to do this; it should be a regular occurrence, as only God can cleanse our temples, and we are in need of renewal and forgiveness perpetually.
I also like the sense of standing in solidarity with the Jewish people against the ban of Antiochus Epiphanies, who forbade the reading of the Torah, the pronouncing of the Divine Name (YHWH), and the keeping of the Sabbath (Shabbat). This year I told my grandchildren the story of the wicked king who tried to stop all of these Biblical things and how we would stand together against that wicked king’s ban, and I think they liked the idea of being modern heroes like Judah Maccabee just fine.
Their mother did bring a dreidel, but I must admit, it felt a little weird to be gambling, in a way. Although growing up in New Mexico, I do remember a playmate at school bringing in a hand-carved wooden top shaped like a dreidel, and us playing the game “Saca y Pon” (Take and Put), which is essentially the dreidel game, only with Spanish letters for Leave (D – Deja) Take All (T – Todo), Take Some (Saca) and Put (Pon).
We didn’t make Jewish food at Hanukkah (though we actually intended to because we love it – but we love all good food) but we did have a good communal meal, and shared in prayers, and the highlight to me was being able to begin reading from Genesis 1 to my grandchildren, which I consider a true blessing, since there was a time when my son didn’t want the Bible in his life, and my grandson actually kept his under the bed like contraband.
I see how some people bind themselves with lots of expectations for holidays, whether they are Biblically-based or not. I never want to find myself so bound again. It has been a journey of discovery and I’m happy with where I’m at about it now.
I’m glad there are people who try to focus on Jesus during Christmas. I have learned to really respect that. I also respect self-aware, self-described “pagans” who are honest about December 25th’s history. I also think that a parallel can be drawn from Malach 4:2 of the promised one as the “sun” — and perhaps early Christians drew that comparison as well, preempting the birth of “Sol Invictus” with the true “sun”. Malachi 4:2: “But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings.”
I tend to prefer the idea of His birth at the fall Feast of Tabernacles, though, and the chance to have a clean slate (uncluttered and unconfused with pagan traditions) at honoring Him at that time. It seems feasible that He, being on time, prophetically, for all the Feasts, would be born then. As it reads in John 1:14 YLT, “And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.”
I think the main point is that we uplift Him. He told us He wants us to, in the way that the brasen serpent was uplifted in the desert near Mt. Horeb, to heal the people of their wounds. He is our only Door to the Father. He is our only HOPE, and so we should, ideally, use every opportunity to lift Him up.
John 3:14-15 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
Thank you Ruth for your post. It was very moving.
Zephaniah 3:18
I will gather you who mourn for the appointed festivals; you will be disgraced no more.
Proclaiming the Name in Central Park
Early today Keith Johnson marked the start of the solar New Year by going to Cleopatra’s Needle, the oldest PAGAN image in North America. Located in the heart of Central Park, this 3,500 year old obelisk proclaims the Egyptian sun-god Ra to be the “Father” and Horus to be his “Son”. In full view of hundreds of bewildered New Yorkers, Johnson blew the shofar, proclaiming Yehovah to be the Father of creation in the spirit of the verse: “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles” (Mal. 1:11). Watch the video here:
http://youtu.be/Kh_ly4bnHNs
Grandiose symbols all over the world proclaim the names of other deities but those standing up to proclaim the name of the one true God are few and far between. Get involved in changing this by becoming an “Ambassador of the Name”. Sign up for free today at:
http://hishallowedname.com/ambassadors-command-center/
Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel
“Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?”
In the context of Deut 12, verse 31 speaks for itself and give an example at the end of the verse, “You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”
Its different for Christmas because it doesnt fit in this context. On Christmas, the main context of the celebration does not involve sacrificing kids in the fire, worshiping another god such as having religious symbols dedicating it to another god, etc.
If you were to try to take bits and pieces of Christmas that are not the main essentials and attempt to conclude its similar to Deut 12, then the argument is considered genetic fallacy. Example, “Christmas has symbols and somewhere in the Bible spoke against symbols, therefore Christmas is wrong.” Instead of applying the main context, people take bits and pieces from context (same as taking it out of context) and making an incorrect conclusion. Another example would be “Most Christians are believers because their parents were”, “Hitler was from Germany, therefore all German people are evil” or “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck”.
Im probably repeating myself of what I posted in the past but there is no where in Bible that speaks again Christmas. I support the Bible verses you have presented but Christmas does not fit in the context. Celebrating Christmas is not a mandatory holiday nor its adding unto God’s commands which means we are saying that the Lords commands us to celebrate Christmas. Christmas is just an option and no worship to another god is involved. It is a 21st Gentile celebration that does not go against Scripture.
@Dave Roberts,
Your still taking Deut 20 out of context. You cannot apply it to Christmas.
@rachael
“I don’t think the attitude is against beleivers celebrating. BUt scripture does not support this celebration. In the NT they were not celebrating HIS birth on christmas. THey would have been celebrating it on the Feast of Tabernacles. EMMANUEL came to SUKKAH with us. Not xmas with us.”
You should know that we all do thing that are not in the Bible. Do you have Scripture specifically telling you to put on white socks or blue jeans? Just because its not in Scripture, is it a sin to wear socks?
No one is declaring that “God commands” we must celebrate Christmas. Its an option and its not mandatory. Its not a pagan holiday because it would involve worshiping another god which is not the case.
Bo,
I recommend listening to this: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/ICN/SpiritualGrowth/Legalism%20vs%20License.mp3
Rachael,
I let your email get away from me–the meaning of “tikkun haolam”, will give my understanding of it.
Feel free to contact me again. Meanwhile I’ll search again.
Ben KC,
You wrote:
Straw man to the max man! What does socks and blue jeans have to do with the discussion of using pagan celebrations to supposedly worship YHWH? The day that has been proclaimed to celebrate Messiah’s birth by the Catholic church is on the date of pagan deity worship. It incorporates many symbols of pagan worship. Can you not see the difference between socks and mistletoe…between blue jeans and kneeling in front of a tree with presents?
Dates/holidays are part of how the pagans worship their deities. We are not to inquire as to how the heathen worship and do so to YHWH. He has revealed the special dates of His choosing to us. Messiah and the early believers kept these dates.
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
You wrote:
The Catholic church declared it. You just go along with it and that makes it OK somehow? It is a pagan holiday, because most that celebrate it are worshiping things. Covetousness is Idolatry, according to Paul. Greed to the max is the spirit of Xmas.
Colossians 3
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Shalom
Bo,
No, its not a strawman argument. If you dont see my point, then I have to no reason to explain it all over.
Dates are part of pagan worship but there is no pagan worship in Christmas. Its how the Bible defines what is pagan. Again, no one is worshiping another god and doing anything that contradicts Scripture. The holiday doesnt promote worshiping a golden calf, Christmas tree, etc.
Seriously Bo? The Catholic Church argument? Sigh… Your arguments is getting ridiculous. The Catholic has no authority over me so it makes no sense to even bring this up. They cannot tell us what holidays to celebrate. Again, they have no authority over us! Its voluntary. Period.
Bo, just be aware of genetic fallacy in your arguments. I dont have to define it for you. You can google it for yourself again.
Ill post it up for the public on the definition Genetic Fallacy
The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.
Example of genetic fallacy
From Attacking Faulty Reasoning by T. Edward Damer, Third Edition p. 36:
You’re not going to wear a wedding ring, are you? Don’t you know that the wedding ring originally symbolized ankle chains worn by women to prevent them from running away from their husbands? I would not have thought you would be a party to such a sexist practice.” There may be reasons why people may not wish to wear wedding rings, but it would be logically inappropriate for a couple to reject the notion of exchanging wedding rings on the sole grounds of its sexist origins.
Ben KC,
“The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, UNLESS its past in some way affects its present value.”-from: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
Since many present Xmas customs have been shown to be against direct scriptural injunctions, the “present value” is seriously in question. The ancient past and the recent past can be shown to “affect the present value” adversely on both a scriptural and a cultural basis.
Another problem arises in who is the judge of the merits. If we are the judges, then we are putting ourselves in the place of Elohim. If we let YHWH’s word do the judging, then we can know rightly what is good and evil. To do the judging ourselves, we continue to be partakers of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is equivalent to rebellion.
It becomes obvious that a genetic fallacy can only be sited and “proved” when there is a lack of direct revelation on right and wrong. This being the case, the true genetic fallacy is when someone tries to say that adopting cultural remnants of paganism for celebration and worship of YHWH is permitted due to the fact that it is not attached to idolatry any longer. So, they try to prove that there has been a break from “out and out” idolatry by attempting to show those pagan customs are only cultural now.
To some degree, usually a large one, past cultures got their celebrations and symbols from idolatrous religion. Where do these current cultures symbols and celebrations come from but from the past cultures…at least usually. If there were no prohibition from the true Elohim or no true Elohim, we could be shown to be wrong in denouncing the using of those relics of paganism on a genetic basis. But there is a true Elohim that says he abhors those relics.
Shalom
Bo,
Im going to disengage on this topic for now because I will be repeating myself over again. Let the public decide for themselves when they read this in the future. But again, you are still using genetic fallacy.
Ben KC,
I have clearly proven that you are wrong to claim that I am guilty of genetic fallacy. You are approving pagan customs and grasping at straws and setting up straw man arguments to justify your position.
Shabbat Shalom
I don’t celebrate christmas for christian reasons, just enjoy(usually) the family reuniting. I don’t ever personally remember celebrating Christmas for “religious” reasons. Not because I think it’s wrong but because I don’t honor day above another….this would include Easter, Sabbath, etc.
And to Bo, while I don’t agree with your conclusions I am realizing more and more the significance of the feasts and various Jewish days as having important spiritual significance for God’s people.
David and three people once asked the Lord Jesus,in prayer,for His feelings on various things ; they even said ‘tell us something that makes you sick’ – He replied ‘Christmas’ ; He later told David why.
Here is a link to get a free zipfile/MP3 download of the talk he discusses this on (he mentioned it near the end of a lovely talk),a talk entitled ‘What is the truth about Christmas’ ?
Jesus said make [hot] disciples,not simply hot dinners,and not festivals ; if that is how Jesus feels about ‘Christmas’,how should His disciples feel about it ?
Do get the free talk – get all of them !
http://www.davidpawson.com/anchor/anchor.nsf/MP3-ListFree?OpenForm&