Believers and the Law of Moses

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The Law of Moses:  as believers in Yeshua, should we keep it? Must we keep it? Does this differ for Jewish and Gentile believers?  Join Dr. Brown on today’s show as he sorts out what the Mosaic Covenant means for believers in Jesus!

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to bring them to their fullness of meaning; to fulfill that to which they were pointing, and take the ethics of those commandments and to bring them to an even higher level.  It is only through Him, therefore, that we can fully live out the requirements of the law.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus brings to full expression everything to which the law was pointing; through Him we draw near to God.  He does that to which the laws and sacrifices could only point, and functions as our great High Priest.  He calls us to be temples of the living God, ultimately realizing the fullness of the law.

Featured Resources:

A Rest Beyond the Sabbath [DVD]: New York is called “the city that never sleeps” and most people living there seem unwilling or unable to stop and rest for even a few hours. Yet thousands of New Yorkers are able to rest a whole day each week. How and why do they do it?

What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus?: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.

Other Resources:

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.

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Our Hands Are Stained with Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.

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Is Christianity Jewish? [Think it Thru DVD] with Dr. Brown:  It seems that the major religious faiths have little or nothing in common at all. Dr. Michael Brown travels to the Bible Belt of the United States to explore what people know of Judaism and its relationship to Christianity.


621 Comments
  1. Debbie Fraser,

    You wrote:

    Only Jewish people need to obey the Torah. Why don’t you get that?

    I do not get that because the scripture does not say that. Read these next two passages very slowly.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Why don’t you get that transgressing the law is sin and that we should not sin now that we are under grace? The definition of sin is transgression of the law. So lets just use the definition in place the word sin in Romans 6:15. Here we go…nothing up my sleeve…”What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace, God forbid.” See how easy that is.

    Read Acts Chapter 10 & 11. The 1st Gentile ever to be saved. He was not told by Peter to keep the Law or the Jewish Holidays.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Gentiles are supposed to drive bicycles. That Peter did not tell Cornelius to keep YHWH’s Holy Days (They are not Jewish holidays) or that the Bible does not record that he did, is called an argument from silence. Because something was not written in the account does not mean that it was not said. In the account in question, there is nothing said about divorce and remarriage being adultery. Does that mean that gentiles can remarry and not be in adultery? There is nothing said of not stealing. Is it ok for gentiles to steal? What wasn’t said doesn’t really prove anything except that something wasn’t said.

    Stop trying to convert Folks From Christianity to Judaism.

    I’m not. Have you actually read what I have written? Have you read the scriptures that I quote? I do not think that the religions of either Christianity or Judaism are on the right track. Actually each one is about half on track if you remove their traditions and commandments of men. If Christianity accepted the Messiah that is really portrayed in scripture and Judaism really followed torah, and we merged the two, we would have Biblical faith. But alas, it doesn’t look like these two religions will ever repent…so I am a voice crying on a webpage, “Repent, for your position in the kingdom of heaven is at stake!” Maybe a few will hear the call and come out of Babylon before the plagues hit.

    Revelation 18
    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the endurance of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

    So you see, we are supposed to put our faith in Y’shua and keep the commandments of YHWH. Not one or the other. As long as we are part of the Babylon religion of confusion, compromise and commandments of men, we will be unable to accept both. We will receive of her plagues if we continue partake in her sins/transgressions of YHWH’s law.

    Jesus kept the Law because He was Jewish. Hello!

    Is that really why? Don’t you think that He was the word of YHWH made flesh? Did it ever occur to you ask, “what word?” He is YHWH’s Torah. He lived the Torah perfectly because it is His very nature. Torah is the revelation of YHWH’s nature in written form. Y’shua is the revelation of YHWH’s nature in human flesh. Did you know that the law is not sin. Did you know that it is not sin for us to keep it? Did you know that it is sin when we do not keep it?…oops, I already covered that above. Did you know that the law is righteous, just, good and spriritual…and that someone with a carnal mind cannot subject itself to YHWH law? Read these passages for what they say…Please

    Romans 7
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid…
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good…
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual…

    Romans 8
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    HELLO!

    <blockquote.Jesus came for the Jewish people 1st because Jesus knew the Jews could not keep the Law.

    Are you saying that since Y’shua died for the Jews, they are supposed to stop keeping the law? Paul did not teach that. Are you saying that only the Jews had sinned? We have already established that sin is transgressing the law. I think that both Jew and Gentiles are guilty before the law. Both Jew and Gentile sinned by transgressing it. If it is not for you, then you are not transgressing it and thus not sinning. Grace is not needed where there is no law, for there is no breaking of the law to apply the grace to. If the Gentiles can receive grace, they must also have the law.

    Romans 3
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Everybody is guilty and every mouth is stopped because the law applies to all. The law only talks to those that are under the law. When we break the law, we sin. Even if we do not know that it was a sin. That is called a sin of ignorance. Gentiles do a lot of sins of ignorance. When we know what the law says and still break it, it is called wilful sin or presumptuous sin. Jew and Gentile do this too. We all need a savior. We all need grace. We all sin, because we all break the law. Is it alright to continue to break the law once we are saved? May it never be…Paul says.

    Shalom

  2. That last part should be:

    Debbie-
    Jesus came for the Jewish people 1st because Jesus knew the Jews could not keep the Law.

    Are you saying that since Y’shua died for the Jews, they are supposed to stop keeping the law? Paul did not teach that. Are you saying that only the Jews had sinned? We have already established that sin is transgressing the law. I think that both Jew and Gentiles are guilty before the law. Both Jew and Gentile sinned by transgressing it. If it is not for you, then you are not transgressing it and thus not sinning. Grace is not needed where there is no law, for there is no breaking of the law to apply the grace to. If the Gentiles can receive grace, they must also have the law.

    Romans 3
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Everybody is guilty and every mouth is stopped because the law applies to all. The law only talks to those that are under the law. When we break the law, we sin. Even if we do not know that it was a sin. That is called a sin of ignorance. Gentiles do a lot of sins of ignorance. When we know what the law says and still break it, it is called wilful sin or presumptuous sin. Jew and Gentile do this too. We all need a savior. We all need grace. We all sin, because we all break the law. Is it alright to continue to break the law once we are saved? May it never be…Paul says.

    Shalom

  3. Eliyahu Moshiach,

    I am mostly in agreement with your perspective on marriage.

    You wrote:

    Y’shua HaMoshiach speaks of the hardness of the hearts and that is why this was permitted. -marrying more than one woman.

    I think that the precept in question was what would constitute a legal reason for divorce. Not about having more than one wife…although there are principles that apply. Messiah defined the word for “uncleanness” in a very limited way. Even His disciples were shocked by His statements. “If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.” This would go against the very fabric of Jewish lifestyle and teaching…for they say, “A man is not a man until he marries a wife.”…or something like that.

    I do not like the idea of polygamy. It has always proved to be detrimental in many ways. It is not the correct picture to paint of Messiah and His bride. He only has one bride. Her name has always been Israel. Even when YHWH divorced Israel for just cause, or at least the northern tribes, He calls her back. He did not go out looking for another bride. This is one reason why I think that Gentiles have to be grafted into Israel to partake of the marriage covenant with YHWH. I do not think that there are two brides…one for YHWH the Father and one for the Son. They are one. They have one many membered bride composed of people from every nation…grafted into Israel.

    Back to the topic…

    I do not think that the Son changed or added to or subtracted from YHWH’s torah. He is the Torah made flesh. When He spoke, He brought clarity and magnification of YHWH’s word. For example:

    Matthew 5
    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    There is no change in the torah here. Y’shua is applying #10 to #7. He is contrasting what the people had been taught by the scribes and Pharisees…”You have heard it said by the sages” with the whole word of YHWH. He did not isolate a verse and make a doctrine out of it. He did not look for ways to get out of doing what the word said. He compounded every word together…He is the whole word compounded together…what else would we expect?

    He tells us that when we break #10 in regard to another man’s wife, we are guilty of #7 in our hearts.

    So back to the passage in Matthew 19. “For the hardness of your hearts, Moses wrote you this precept.” The divorce precept. Messiah, by saying that one commits adultery when one remarries after divorce…except it be for fornication, is defining the word in the narrowest possible way. He uses the words “fornication” and “adultery” very precisely. He does not say that one can divorce for adultery and then be remarried. He says fornication. It is only fornication if the woman is not married yet. And she is married if she is betrothed.

    The uncleanness that Messiah defines as fornication probably refers to something that damaged the girl before betrothal. She was evidently defiled as a child and then on the wedding day, when she is taken into the bride chamber, it is found out. The man has either been tricked by the father of the bride or the bride herself. Someone else had humbled his bride. He can divorce her at this point and remarry without it being adultery on his part. She is truly free to remarry also.

    Where is the hardness of heart? Everywhere. The one that defiled the girl had a very hard heart. the father that did not protect her had one too. The girl, if she let the situation go this far without disclosure. The bridegroom that is so prideful so as to think that his rights are more important than the brides future life. And one more thing…Deut 24 is written as a sort of alternative to Deut. 22. The man that would take a defiled woman and use her till he was done with her, and then bring her before the congregation to be stoned to death is extremely hard hearted. The precept of divorce was to mitigate this hardheartedness for sure.

    And how is it all fixed? By applying #10 to #7 in the first place. Without lust/covetousness, we do not have little girls being defiled. We do not have Bridegrooms that are only looking to get what they “deserve.” We do not have men wanting out of their marriages so that they can have somebody else. But #10 can only be fixed if we have a savior. The same goes for #1. Unless we have YHHW’s Spirit within us, we are doomed to repeat breaking #1 and #10 over and over. It may not be overt…at this point, but it will come out of our hearts eventually.

    When we break # 4, it is a sign that we have another Elohim. It is a sign that we want something that belongs to another for our own use. It is a sign that we have already broken #1 and #10. The same goes for every little commandment. If we cannot subject ourselves to them, we show YHWH that we have carnal/fleshly, covetous, and idolatrous minds and hearts. The reason that those that do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments will be called great in the kingdom, is because they have proven that they can be trusted with even the little things…and so can be trusted in the big things.

    The reason that those that break the smallest commandment and teach men to break it will be least (that is pretty low) in the kingdom, is because they have proven that they have idolatry and lust in their hearts. It comes out in those little commandments…even if we can keep the big ones. We may only be keeping the big ones so that others will not think badly of us. Hmmm? That would mean that our reputation is our Elohim and we lust for esteem and honor. But the little ones will show where our hearts really are.

    Shalom

  4. Eliyahu Moshiach,-Did Y’shua change the Torah if marrying more than one wife is prohibitted? Part of obeying the Torah is obeying the teachings of Y’shua haMashiach. If Y’shua told us that we are no longer allowed to marry more than one wife – since he is the Mashiach, this is the Torah (one Torah rule) – to obey whatever the Mashiach teaches.

    The torah specifies that a man cannot have a subsequent wife if he is not doing everything for his first wife that is required. Torah does not sanction or prohibit multiple wives, but it regulates such practices. It is not a right to have more than one wife, therefore to go against the laws of the land in which YHWH has placed you, or that you have chosen for yourself, has no authority. Something that is allowed, is not commanded.

    That a man and a woman become one flesh and that they are not be separated, is Messiah’s point. Once a marriage has been consummated, it is indissoluble except by death. Messiah makes it plain that a divorced woman may not be remarried. Paul says the same. Messiah also makes it plain that a man that divorces his wife after consummation and marries someone else, is living in adultery. Messiah derives all this from the passages in torah. It is not some new set of rules.

    I think that 99%, or more, of men would be disqualified from having more than one wife at a time. Almost the same amount would be disqualified from being remarried. I do not think that a man that has been remarried can be an bishop/deacon. I do not even think that a never married man can be a bishop or deacon. You are either a husband of one wife, or you are not. I guess that means that a woman is excluded from these positions also. Certainly those that do not qualify can be used of YHWH in many, many capacities…just not these.

    I think that those people that are in what Messiah basically calls adulterous marriages should at least refrain from the marriage bed. The man is still responsible to provide for the woman and the children, but is disallowed conjugal relations. I think that he must be a “eunuch for the kingdom of heavens sake.” That does not mean that he should be castrated, but that he should live as a celibate so as to gain the kingdom.

    I obviously take the statements of scripture to be quite serious. It is a narrow way and a straight gate.

    Shalom

  5. Bo,

    The Rabbis also teach that lust is absolutely forbidden. The Italian Hat worn (by religious Jews)is used to be able to walk down the street with the head down and the lid of the hat obstructing vision if suppose a woman with a very sensual outfit walks into his vision, the hat is used to obstruct the vision by tilting the head down.

    The rabbis in the Talmud taught very similar to Y’shua. One is forbidden to look even upon a pinky finger of a woman if one has lust. Destroying lust is essential to being a traditional Jew. In most Jewish orthodox schools – the men study in their schools and the women in theirs. The first time one is allowed to glance at a woman is during biblical courtship dating. One is forbidden to kiss or touch (hand shake even) a woman until after the wedding day. This is all for living a life of no lust. In most of Jewish history until recently – a man marries before 16 so that he will never lust in his life – his wife will help him live righteously.

    The rabbis – would never teach that the penalty of lusting after a married woman would be the death penalty – in that sense – it not adultery to the Torah – Y’shua did say it was “adultery in the heart” but would most likely agree with the ancient rabbis. I do not believe Y’shua was saying that all those that lust after a married woman = adultery = death penalty. Y’shua was not teaching a new concept here. He was teaching ethics, the same ethics that the ancient rabbis themselves taught. Do not lust! Do not sin with your thoughts! They could always bring a voluntary guilt offering or thanksgiving offering to appease their conscience and make right with the Creator. But we see that the penalty for lusting for adultery is not same as adultery from the Torah rules.

    Do you agree – Y’shua was not saying that the penalty of lusting after a married woman is the same death penalty as actually committing adultery? Do you desire that Levirate marriage be practiced? Thank you for correcting me on my wrongly attributing the “hardness of heart” statement of Y’shua to marriage with more than one woman – yes, you are right – it refers to divorce. What is your thoughts on divorce – the Torah teaches that a man if permitted to divorce his wife – where do you stand?

    Shalom Lekulam

  6. Bo,

    I would like to comment on your statement,

    “Messiah makes it plain that a divorced woman may not be remarried. Paul says the same. Messiah also makes it plain that a man that divorces his wife after consummation and marries someone else, is living in adultery. Messiah derives all this from the passages in torah. It is not some new set of rules.”

    In ancient Israel – the Jewish women were divorced all the time – sometimes even before they were 15 years old – we do not see historically these girls being forbidden to ever marry again – if their husband is still alive.

    Y’shua talked to a Samaritan woman who had many husbands – are you assuming that all these husbands died – if not – there is no Torah Law to put to death – if a woman was divorced and married again – if this is adultery – then it would have the death penalty of adultery – it can not be this though – the Torah never teaches that a woman should die if she gets married after her husband divorces her. If someone divorces their wife because they found another woman he wants to marry – he can only afford one wife – this has adultery type lust – it is adultery in the heart but not in penalty. According to the Torah a man may divorce his wife but a woman may not divorce her husband. If the man was violant and put the woman’s life in danger of being murdered – the rabbis would investigate and if found true – they would send strong men to force the husband to divorce his wife – life always overrides every Torah rule (according to the ancient rabbis).

    What about a case like David in the Hebrew Bible. He was married to Saul’s daughter. Saul’s daughter was taken and given to another man – mnay, many years later, David takes back Saul’s daughter to live with him again – and the other man wept – and Saul’s daughter wept and was angry.

    What about a case like this. If Saul’s daughter was committing adultery – why did she not pay the price of death – even afterwards – if the other man that was (married) with Saul’s daughter – why was he not put to death for committing adultery – Why did not David as king apply the Law in this situation. In the end, this woman was first David’s wife – then another man’s wife – then David’s wife again.

    What are your thoughts?

    Shalom Lekulam

  7. Bo,

    Another comment on Levirate Marriage.

    It has been stated that Shabat was given before the Torah was given at Sinai. Levirate marriage was also clearly seen practiced before the Torah of Moses was given at Sinai. It is clearly seen practiced by Judah the son of Israel (Jacob) in his debacle of situation with his daughter in law, Tamar. The argument that Shabat applies to all Gentiles equally should apply to Levirate marriage as well – there is more proof that Israel’s sons practiced Levirate marriage than they did Shabat.

    Shalom Lekulam

  8. Bo,

    I found it interesting that you eliminate anyone who is not married to be a leader/pastor of a community of believers (church). It would seem at a normal reading of NT Scripture that Saul/Paul was not married. He would say, “be single as I am single”. It was from Paul/Saul’s words that the Catholic church forbade anyone to be a pastor if they were not single. Could you clarify your ideas on this. Are you saying that Paul was married and his wife died, therefore, he can be a pastor? What about this case, then, why do we not see Elijah or even Elishah – there is no Scripture to point to them having a wife. This would have to be assumed. Daniel and Jeremiah – no evidence of them being married – Daniel – it is taught by most that he was a eunuch (also Shadrack, Meshach and Abendego). Are none of these people above permitted to be a pastor – do you believe Elijah may come back before the Mashiach comes back – is Elijah forbidden to be our pastor in the future – according to this interpretation of a possible futuristic scenario of end times. It sounds like you believe that a pastor needs to have one wife to be a pastor. What if a pastor’s wife dies – is he forbidden to be a pastor until he can find someone to be his wife and marry him, again. Then you would have a scenario – he was the pastor – he is looking for a wife so he can be a pastor again.

    I do agree that a married man is better suited to being a pastor in today’s church. A pastor must not be in lust. But I can not use the “one wife” scripture to pronounce it illegal according to Scriptures for a pastor to be a pastor if he either chooses a life long cellibacy (Scripture talks about the gift or calling of cellibacy)or in the case of his wife dying. Since the culture of the NT Scriptures were that of Jews having multiple wives – how do you know that the “one wife” did not refer to this – a pastor should not be boggled down with the worldly affairs of taking care of more than one wife and her (their) children. This type of interpretation would make it a single man better able to focus his entire time and concerns on the ministry assigneg for him. Scripture says, “a single person can be fully concerned with the Lord and a married person is plit between family, wife and the Lord”. Yet I do believe that the way the church is constructed today – a married couple would be more effective – yet I can not make a rule that an unmarried man is forbidden to be a pastor.

    What are your clarifications, thoughts and ideas?

    Shalom Lekulam

  9. Eliyahu Moshiach,

    Yes, I agree that there is no death penalty for lust. I guess we could say that we bring on a spiritual death penalty upon ourselves if we do not cut off and cast from us that which causes us to offend.

    I also agree that Messiah was teaching much the same as Judaism has taught, but I also think that He laid out the essence in pure torah form and did not add fence laws as requirements. I think that we should all have our own personal “fence laws” for the sake of not offending YHHW, but we should not make those rules for anyone else.

    Messiah, in dealing with the heart, inspires us to have our righteousness exceed that of traditional Judaism in that we do not follow man made traditions and extra commandments, but keep torah by personal spirit led “fence laws.”

    As to leverite marriage…I do think that it is in torah and should be practiced when the circumstances apply. I think that most women today would opt out and not ask for the procedure. I think that the man can opt out. This happened in the book of Ruth. The kinsman refused for the sake of not marring his inheritance. Leverite procedures were for the sake of inheritance and for the family name being continued. We do not have the same type of inheritance laws and such. We have made useless/void YHWH’s commandments by our man made rules once again. Our real problem is a much deeper problem. We don’t institute the foundational precepts of torah and thus make other commandments to be of little to no value to practice, as those instructions rely upon the basics.

    I think that I explained above that Y’shua gave us the accurate definition of the word “uncleanness.”

    Deuteronomy 24
    1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

    (Messiah says that the word uncleanness means fornication. He contrasts that with the word adultery. Fornication is a prohibited sexual act outside of marriage. If she would have been defiled during the betrothal or after consummation, it would be called adultery, not fornication. An adulterous wife would be subject to the death penalty or the law of jealousy not the divorce law.

    So Messiah is saying that the only scriptural divorce is for woman that was defiled before betrothal. Once they couple are joined together by YHWH as one flesh, divorce is no longer an option…even in the case of adultery or abandonment or physical abuse. The wife may separate from a the idiot, but she may not remarry. If the wife divorces the husband, she is still his wife according to scripture and she may not be remarried while her husband liveth.)

    2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.

    (The woman above has not been joined to her husband by YHWH and may be another man’s wife. If he says nothing in the day that he finds out of her defilement, he may not divorce her. Her vow to him stands and she is his wife.(Num.30;7) If he kicks her out of the house, she may not get remarried. In our culture, what we call divorce is nothing more than a separation. The marriage has been consummated and they are one flesh, no man may divide that which YHWH has joined. This is why Messiah called remarriage, adultery.)

    3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife.
    4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

    (The first man had a chance to accept a defiled woman and be her husband. When he opts out, he looses his opportunity once she has become another man’s wife. He can take her back until she has gone in unto the other man, she is now defiled/unclean to the one that rejected her. It is an abomination to YHWH and produces rampant sin when we treat divorce as a license to commit adultery. We have done just that. The church’s statistics are no better than the world’s.)

    So the written torah and the Torah made flesh agree perfectly. No divorce after consummation…remarriage is adultery in almost every case.

    Shalom

  10. Bo,

    I have to continue my questions from this statement of yours,

    “I think that most women today would opt out and not ask for the procedure.”

    A woman was never given the right to “opt out”. This is called Chalitza. Ruth was not given the option to do Chalitza. If it was, Boaz would not have had to find the nearest of right (kin) to do the Levirate marriage. A Levirate marriage may be annulled only when there is a Temple (or Tabernacle) according the ancient rabbis- no Temple today – there is no way to do Chalitza – this is called the loosening of the shoe (done in the Temple by a priest) – but without the Temple – Levirate marriage may be binding – many times this resulted in a man having two wives.

    A righteous man was shamed if he did Chalitza. He did not want to make an heir for his dead brother. The woman would need someone to take of her as well. Chalitza would be very selfish and unloving to abandon his dead brother and his dead brother’s wife.

    Shalom Lekulam

  11. I am not terribly interested in what the rabbis say. What does torah say? Does it say anything of an annulment and a temple in this regard? Does it say that the woman has the get remarried, or can she stay single? I am also fine with leverite marriage coming before Sinai. I think that the unclean laws came before and the firstling sacrifice and, and, and.

    Now just so you know, I in no way am saying that I do not accept every word of torah to be our instructions. Leverite marriage has never come up as a necessary thing in my world. All my brothers have children. If it were to come up somehow, I would do my best to counsel according to torah to the best of my ability.

    I think that David’s wife was always his. He did not divorce her. He did not even kick her out. Saul pulled a fast one and his daughter and her adulterous husband suffered for it. Michael did not pay the price of death because no one testified against her or David never brought the matter to court. There is such a thing as mercy and forgiveness in torah, too. We are not told why things happened the way that they did, only that they did happen. Maybe she was the one that ran off with the new man and they deserved to be stoned to death, if so then someone disobeyed torah. The story does not make torah void.

    Paul was not a pastor/bishop or deacon. He was an apostle. There are no rules about apostles being married that I know of. Peter calls himself an elder. He was married. I take the passages in Timothy and Titus in the sense of “MUST” be the husband of one wife. I would even think that he could not be remarried after being a widower, as it was required of aged widows to remain unmarried. Maybe he had divorced his wife before becoming a believer and she would not return to him. Maybe she left him because of him becoming a believer. We only know that he is single and not a bishop/deacon.

    Shalom

    Shalom

  12. Dan1el-
    Interestingly enough, there is a belief among some Jews, that the Laws change in the future — specifically for resurrected human beings.

    One Law would be the prohibition of any garment that contained more than one type of fiber — because it applied only to living souls.

    They understand that the resurrection WILL effect — and, in some cases, nullify the Law’s application to humans; yet, there are some people even on this thread that would tell you “NO THE LAW IS ETERNAL!”

    Here is the link to the video concerning the Jewish teaching on how the application of the Law is not the same for a resurrected person (which Christians ARE, currently)

    And now we are supposed to base our doctrine on some talmudic/rabbinic speculation or endless genealogy or fable. Have you read 1 Timothy 1 lateley? You just might find a proper interpretation now…close to home even.

    Well the people on this thread that think that the law is in effect till heaven earth pass away might be in better company than those that reject the straight forward statements of scripture and get their doctrine from youtube. Here is what the apostles believed…I’ll go with them:

    Matthew 5
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    1 Peter 1
    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    2 Timothy 3
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Well now…until heaven and earth pass away…endureth for ever…makes us wise unto salvation…from it the gospel is preached to us.

    So we can go with Y’shua via Matthew(which Dan1el rejects), Peter, and Paul or we can go with those that have turned to fables. Tough choice eh?

    Shalom

  13. Bo,

    Devarim 24:3 in the Septuagint reads,
    καὶ μισήσῃ αὐτὴν = And he hate (μισέω)her.
    ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ ἔσχατος = the last man
    καὶ γράψει αὐτῇ = and he write her
    βιβλίον ἀποστασίου = book of divorce

    The Hebrew Bible says,
    ושנאה = and he hate שָׂנֵא her
    האיש האחרון = the last man
    וכתב לה ספר כרית = and he write her
    a book of divorce

    μισέω = hate
    hate=שָׂנֵא

    A man gives a book of divorce to his wife because he HATES her. The Torah does NOT say that this divorce is not binding. It gives a scenario. If a man comes to hate his wife – gives her a book of divorce – she is forbidden to marry the first (prior)man that she was married to. The Torah of Moses permitted divorce because of the “hardenss of heart”. I do not see a scenario in the above verse of a man marrying a woman with kidushin (engangement), the woman gets divorced beacuse of prior fornication, then gets married again in kidushin, then the new husband finds out of her prior fornication, hates her and then divorces her. It is possible but highly unlikely. I see, as the rabbis and OT scholars, that divorce was permitted by Moses because of the “hardness of hearts”. The second man – hated his wife – gave her a book of divorce – she is only forbidden to mary the first husband again. I can not assume anything more than what was explicitly written. Our Father in heaven – does not like divorce ( I do not either)- yet he uses the same terminology too in describing his relationship with Israel – the Creator gave a “book of divorce” to His people. Divorce did not have, then, the negative stigmatism on it as it does today (in the Christian world). I find your interpretation of Devarim 24, interesting, but honestly, I do not see that interpretation to be very accurate (from my perspective). It is leaning on the desire to prove that the Torah has always taught that divorce is forbidden. Why has the Torah never told us the punishment for divorce? What sin or guilt offering is one required to bring? Your interpetation is almost entirely assumptions. I just do not see that from the same verses that you are also exegeting.

    Shalom Lekulam

  14. Dr. Michael Brown disagrees with Bo, and he has a terrific amount of prayer and study backing his beliefs — I wouldn’t worry myself over the likes of those who refuse to listen (Rom 2:1): whoever refuses your words from your relationship with Christ refuses — not you, but — Christ.

    If our subjective “relationship” with Messiah is at odds with YHWH’s word…do not go with your feelings and emotions and voices in your head…go with the word that abides for ever and that makes us wise unto salvation. Let’s look at the passage you have referenced. Once again you have pulled it out of context.

    Romans 2
    1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

    (Doest what things? If we look at the verses that come before we find the answer. Here is a short list that might be instuctive:
    1)those who hold the truth in unrighteousness…in other words they do not do what the scripture says
    2)filled with all unrighteousness…John says that those that break YHWH’s law are unrighteous…Paul says the TNK tell us what righteous behavior is
    3)deceit…using scripture to say we shouldn’t go by scripture…not paying attention to context…saying the scripture is full of errors
    4)covenantbreakers…only accepting part of the new covenant instead of letting YHWH write His laws on their hearts…being hearers only of YHWH’s perfect law instead of being doers of it.)

    2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to TRUTH against them which commit such things.

    (What is truth? Thy word is truth. That is what Messiah said to YHWH. YHWH’s law is truth. YHWH will judge those that do not do the truth.)

    3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

    (If you think you know better than YHWH and judge that those things do not deserve His wrath, it proves that you are one of the one deserving of His wrath.)

    4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    (According to his deeds? Whether they line up with YHWH’s revealed word or not.)

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    (Do not OBEY the truth, but unrighteousness…definition please! Here we go again. Unrighteousness is sin and sin is the transgression of the law. The truth is YHWH’s instructions, unrighteousness is disobedience to those instructions.)

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    (No respect of persons. That means that he has the same instructions for everybody. He doesn’t grade on a curve. Both Jew and Gentile will be judged great in the kingdom if they keep and teach men to keep YHWH’s commandments. Both will be judged as least if they break and teach men to break the smallest of YHWH’s commandments.)

    Shalom

  15. Ray-
    I was thinking of the judges that were put in place by Moses after the counsel of Jethro.

    Today I think we could think of such people who would do the work of the ministry of reconciliation as intercessors, or counselors who are put in place by the leadership of the church, or simply by acting in the role of their gifting or calling or offering to do so in whatever situation they find themself in at the time,

    That is exactly what I am trying to do. I am trying to bring reconciliation of those that say they believe the Bible with what the Bible says. to bring their bodies in line with their spirits. To help them renew their minds so that they can be in harmony with YHWH instead of having a mind that fights His law. To help them stop deceiving themselves and others. All this straight up.

    Romans 8
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Romans 12
    1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    2 Timothy 3
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    James 1
    21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    1 John 3
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Of all the things you wonder Ray, I wonder why you never wonder about these things, but always against them.

    Shalom

  16. Eliyahu Moshiach,

    It is about the word for uncleanness that Y’shua specifies as fornication. Research that for awhile.

    Shalom

  17. Bo,

    The second man divorces his wife out of hate torwads her – that is all it says – according to you this reason is a forbidden reason – yet Scripture does not say anything about an “uncleanness” in regards to the second husband.

    What is your thoughts?

    Shalom Lekulam

  18. Bo,

    I just want to make it clear to you that I understand your interpretaion of Y’shua words. I had a professor who held to the same logic of interpreation to Y’shua’s words. Yet, he never taught that the Torah taught this. Why would Y’shua mention the “hardness of hearts”. Your interpretation was not known to the disciples who said, “who can get married”. Part of doing good interpretation of Scripture is understanding the historical enviroment of the particular era in which the Scripture is being written. Your teaching thrive only if all of the past Scripture readers – Jewish and Gentile were all deceived – and you only have the true interpretation. All your theories abide on the concept that nothing can be learned from the history – both Jewish and Christian. Your interpretation of Y’shua’s words are fine. This is a common way to interpret it. but I do not see eye to eye with you on Devarim 24:3.

    Shalom Lekulam

  19. Jesus was and is all about the gospel rather than being all about the law. There is a difference.

    Some people want to mix law and gospel together like putting new wine into an old bag, or a piece of new cloth on an old garment.

    Some people are all about the law and will use any scripture for the purpose of accusation.

    Jesus was never and is not today, about all that.
    He’s about the kingdom of heaven, the good news of God, about real judgment, justice, mercy, and faith without partiality and without hypocrisy.

    Some people are telling us that they will be the ones who will say that they prophesied in Jesus’ name and did great things, but will be the ones whom Jesus never knew.

    I hope they turn out to be wrong.

    As this blog is to close tomorrow AM, it’s time to either fold or play the final card.

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