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Are the eternal soul and the resurrection of the body conflicting views? What is the relationship of the new Jerusalem to the old? Dr. Brown answers these questions and more today on Line of Fire!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We’ve covered a lot of ground, and I’m reminded for the thousandth time to major on the majors–to put the big things first, to lay the foundations solidly and to build from there, without getting caught up with all the peripherals.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: While all other voices will prove false, while all other teachings will fall away, the words of Jesus and the person of Jesus will forever remain true. He said, “Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” Lean on Him, believe on Him, trust in Him, and you will not be disappointed.
Featured Resources:
How to be Led by the Spirit [MP3 CD]
Foundations of Prayer [MP3 CD]
Foundations of Intercession [MP3 CD]
Other Resources:
Only Genesis with John C. Rankin [MP3 CD]: The foundations for life and living are found in the book of Genesis, including the power to give, the power to live in the light, the power of informed choice, the power to love hard questions, the power to love enemies and the power to forgive. This class will outline the ten positive assumptions of Genesis, which follow the biblical order of creation: God’s nature, communication, human nature, human freedom, hard questions, human sexuality, science and the scientific method, verifiable history, covenantal law and unalienable rights.
Principles of Holiness Online Class: In this life-changing, practical class, Dr. Brown explores: The Beauty of Holiness; Grace-Empowered Holiness; Living without Condemnation; The Perils of Legalism; Twenty Reasons Not to Sin; The Biblical Call to Holiness; God’s Cure for Dirty Feet — and much more. You will be encouraged, challenged, and edified by Dr. Brown’s rich use of Scripture and you will gain a solid foundation for life through his clear explanations of widely misunderstood terms such as holiness, grace, and legalism.
If calvanists believe in a “God” that creates evila and predistines all things including terrible wicked things, how can we call them brothers when we the nature of their “God” is not the God of the bible who loves all and does not intend for ANYONE to perish but longs for us ALL to be saved as we cooperate with His will.
Pilgrim,
God DOES create some for destruction, and some for glory — re: Romans 9 (esp. 14-23). It doesn’t get any clearer. It isn’t a Calvinistic view; it is a Biblical view, and it is what is known as a “mystery”.
“No one is able to resist His will” — even those who do evil are not resisting His will; and God still finds fault with them. If you think this is unfair, Paul has an answer for you — it is not “unfair” for THIS reason: God is God, the Maker, and has every right to do whatsoever He wishes, in order to bring about His end-goal: glorification of Himself. That is, He wants to make known His wrath, and make known the riches of His mercy. He is wrathful, and merciful; and wants to express Himself.
Say what???? I do not believe God controls people to be evil. We all have free will. God doesn’t force a person to be a certain way. It is our reaction towards God how people live their life.
Some folks simply love God and some folks simply hate God. Free will to choose.
Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Some folks simply love free will and some folks simply love God.
Daniel,
So I suppose you support double predestination?
The Apostle Paul believed God made people to do evil — Romans 9:13-21…
13Just as it is written:
‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’
[He LOVED, past-tense, means that He past-tense (when He formed the two vessels before time began) loved one and hated one) — and created one for NOBLE USE, and the other for COMMON USE]
14What, then, shall we say? Is God unjust [note: unfair]? NOT AT ALL!
15[note: because] HE says to Moses,
‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’
16[note: because the aforementioned Scripture is true] It [note: it = being a vessel of NOBILITY or
DIS-HONOR] does not depend on man’s desire or efforts, but on GOD’S mercy —
17for the Scripture says to Pharaoh:
‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you; that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’
[note: at the perfect moment in God’s plan/at the perfect time, He raised up Pharaoh, his vessel which He had created — but, it was BEFORE TIME BEGAN that God formed him for this very purpose (the end purpose? that He might glorify His Name)]
18Therefore, God has [note: past-tense has had — before time began] mercy on whom He wants to have [note: past-tense HAS HAD — when He FIRST FORMED the vessels] mercy; and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me:
‘Then why does God still blame us — who resists His will?’
20[note: the response to your question is this:] Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
[note: it is said in Scripture:]
‘Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”‘
[note: if you realize that He has the POWER and MAJESTY to CREATE you (that way), who are you to get mad at HIM WHO IS THE EXALTED CREATOR?]
21Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some POTTERY FOR NOBLE PURPOSES and some FOR COMMON USE?”
There really isn’t another way to read this.
The bottom-line is God’s glory: God will glorify His Name, and He will do it however He wants — even if it looks like ‘injustice’; which it ISN’T.
It isn’t ‘injustice’, because HE, HIMSELF is the REASON for all that exists, and when something glorifies HIM, it is called “justice”.
If something doesn’t glorify Him, it is “injustice”.
If something doesn’t glorify Him (to the human eyes/perspective).
Daniel,
I must admit this scripture always baffled me.
‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’
But I still believe whole heartedly that God doesn’t force or control us.
It would be nice if Dr. Brown can explain what these scripture means. 🙂
‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’
and
Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some POTTERY FOR NOBLE PURPOSES and some FOR COMMON USE?”
Dr. Brown has dealt with these issues on past shows and past debates.
Hardening the Heart:
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2009/11/23/november-23-2009/
3 hours of debating with Dr. James White on the topic of Calvinism:
http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/ICN/SpiritualGrowth/Dr%20Brown%20Debates%20Dr%20James%20White%20on%20Calvinism.mp3
http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/ICN/SpiritualGrowth/Dr.%20Brown%20Debates%20Dr.%20James%20White%20on%20Calvinism%20%5BPart%202%5D.mp3
Eric, Dr. Brown, with all due respect, did not address the Scripture sufficiently — I listened to those debates many days on end.
Eric,
Also, I’m not a Calvinist.
I don’t claim to be perfect; I just have questions.
Dan1el,
You didn’t ask any questions. I also never said you were a Calvinist. If you have any questions please, by all means ask.
Eric,
1. I guess I assumed that you’d seen me asking questions on the forum through the course of time.
2. Why does God anoint liars? I’ve seen people preach the rapture — which is a lie — and do it ANOINTED. Does God anoint them because it is partially true?
Also, please listen to this show: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2009/11/23/november-23-2009/
Dr. Brown does address these passages.
Eric,
I just wanted to clarify that I am not a Calvinist who is siding with James White on the debates… ty — and I am listening to the 2009 recording of LOF right now… ty
No problem Dan1el, hope it helps.
This is not addressing these passages; He does not address the idea of Romans 9:
“He created all men — as a Potter creates vessels — and none can resist His will (seeing as how He made them that way), why does He still find fault?”
That idea is not refuted; it is resisted by Dr. Brown. He does not come to the same conclusion as Apostle Paul does — to wit: WHO ARE YOU, O MAN, TO ANSWER GOD BACK?
Dan1el,
You’ve been listening to the show for 2 minutes, give it some time.
Yes I want to listen to this one. I will have to wait to download it when I can get it.
Q. Is the eternal soul and the resurrection of the body conflicting views?
I say no not to me. I believe when Jesus died on the cross that though his body died, and his soul perished from his body, that his spirit which he commended into the hands of God was where Jesus was upon his death, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, he was in the presence of the Father in the holy place.
His body was still on this earth, lifeless. He was burried in a grave. But the time came when he returned from heaven to come back into that very same body which was changed into a greater glory, just 3 days after his death on the cross.
As soon as he was absent from his body he was present with God, and isn’t he the key to our understanding of the good news of this grace?
There was no conflict about this with Jesus.
Daniel,
You don’t believe in the rapture? Seriously?
LOL I’m listening to the show now too.
Just saying, sounds the same as the James White debate…
The rapture is a false doctrine — yes.
There WILL be a CONCEALING of the saints; but no one is ‘going up’. There aren’t “two returns” (one secret; one visible). There are no “seven years of training” for the “raptured”.
What is coming looks more like Psalms 91 than “Left Behind” — a thousand fall at my left; 10,000 at my right.
When He returns, at the end of the storm, we will be harvested by the angels.
What about…
“For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.” and
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.r”
I believe,
1. His coming as a thief is, in part, because He will come to “take from him the little he THINKS he has” (the parable of the talents in Matthew 25)
2. No one knows the date
3. Matthew 24:31
31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Eric,
Just want to say that he really seemed to be limited in time in the debate, so that he really couldn’t express fully his beliefs; so, he definitely went into more depth on the show than in the debate with James White — however, I feel that he ADDS to the text, and tries to get AROUND the main point the Apostle Paul was making: that God pre-formed men to ONE END: His glory (letting Himself be made known). To achieve that end, He formed some for destruction (to express His wrath), and some for noble purposes (to express the riches of His mercy).
I posted on 2009 show…
“@ 17:20-34
It seems that the idea that ONLY GOD has pre-formed the vessels to cry out to Him, and pre-formed the vessels who RESIST Him is glossed over, though.
The Father drew all men through speaking through Christ (He didn’t speak His own Words); but some men RESISTED (Pharisees), because GOD pre-formed them to resist His drawing, so that God can be glorified when He destroys them — because His wrath is being displayed. His END-GOAL is to reveal His wrath on vessels of “common use”, and reveal His mercy on vessels of “nobility”.
@ 24:00+
Seems that Dr. Brown is changing the meaning of the point that Apostle Paul is making in Romans 9.
The point Apostle Paul was making was that it doesn’t depend on men who act, but on God who has pre-formed men — and He does it for His glory; and your logical response might be that God is unfair; but since God cannot do anything wrong, you must understand that “what is good and right” is that He be glorified; and that God created men in whatsoever way He pleased, to those very ends.
Why do people interpret the bible differently?
I’m going to stick with what I believe, because when I first came to the Lord I cried out to Him over and over again. I said…”Lord, I just want your truth, your truth Lord”
My spirit will have a peace over truth and I will feel uncomfortable in my spirit if it is a false teaching.
Those who are children of God are led by the Spirit of God.
I can attest to an AMEN to that one.
Guide us all Lord. Do not let us be deceived.
Eric,
The bottom line of my question is: HOW can I walk in confidence that what I am saying is true if God will ‘approve’ of me, even if I am believing a lie?
The bottom line of that statement is that if my knowledge of the Truth is incomplete, I could be suffering for having a “persuasion” (Gal 5:8) that is renegade against the Truth simply because I lack knowledge.
Please tell me if you understand the heart of my question.
Debbie,
I totally respect your prerogative to believe what you believe; I won’t put you down or argue with you — that isn’t really the point I was getting after; the point I was getting after was that IT SEEMS (not that it IS, but that IT SEEMS) that God will ANOINT someone who is telling a non-truth.
This also was the case with another man of God (I forget whether it was Finney or Spurgeon) who were Dominionists (if that is the right phrase), believing that Christ will not return until the entire government of man is put under His subjection — and, although he believed a lie, and lived according to that lie, God still anointed him POWERFULLY.
How can I have CONFIDENCE that what I am saying is true, then?
I guess the only answer is 1 John, where it says, “…the SPIRIT is the TRUTH” and it says about the anointing “…and is no lie…”.
That if the ENDS of the doctrine leads men CLOSE to God’s will, He will empower it; if the ENDS of the doctrine leads men FAR from it, He will not empower it.
Sort of like when someone closes their eyes, and searches for something, and the person who hid it says, “cold” if you’re far, and “warm” if you’re nearer, and “hot” if you’re really near.
Dan1el,
I can’t answer for Dr. Brown, I believe he sufficiently addressed the issues at hand. If you want to challenge him on his view, feel free to call in on a relevant show and speak to him.
To answer your question I am confident of the fact that if you ask God to reveal the truth to you, He will. Continue to seek Him. Truth will always prevail. If you are seeking God and asking for truth, He will not lead you to believe a lie.
Hope that answers your question. If we could find a show on the particular topic you are having trouble with, I’m willing to chat there with you more. (Time permitting)
Gtg for now.
God bless you.
Thanks.
Daniel,
Just because someone is anointed by the Lord, doesn’t mean they can not mess up in saying things. Spit out the bones when you get fed the meat. Discern the truth.
Daniel… I’m just trying to understand why folks interpret the bible differently. I thought there is suppose to be unity with the brethren. Observe all the different denominations in the church. Plus, how many folks who disagree on this forum with each other about scripture.
I wouldn’t call what we are doing as arguing, I would call it trying to understand what one thinks and believes in. Capisce?? (Italian word for understand)
Debbie,
There’s no room for “bones”; so-called “teachers” who speak too many bones are graveyards.
People interpret differently because they are allowed or disallowed by God to understand the Truth.
Also, if I tell you “there is a bomb coming, run!” and someone else says “there is an ice cream truck over there, run!” both say a different message, but both can get you to run to the same place — but the point is to get you to run!
If someone speaks the “Truth”, but doesn’t have the love (of God), their Truth doesn’t accomplish the POINT of hearing the Truth; whereas, believing a slightly less true thing might accomplish the POINT of hearing the Truth (hope + love + run the race of faith).
I guess that is the nearest I can get to understanding this…
Also, if people are like chess pieces, revelation is what makes them “move”; and, if God isn’t giving revelation, its because He doesn’t want them to move (yet). He has the plan, and knows when and where He wants people to move — and will give the revelation at that time.
This is where Paul talks about proud men who “push into things that have not been shown them” comes into play, I think.
Eric,
I guess who ever is walking more strongly in the Spirit should speak; as for me, I cannot say that I am walking more strongly than Dr. Brown, so I can’t correct him — since, the end-goal of receiving the Truth is that one WALKS IN THE SPIRIT. The reception of the Word of the Spirit (a.k.a. the Word of Truth — the Spirit is Truth) is to end (ideally) in one WALKING IN THE SPIRIT. It came FROM the Spirit; it leads back TO the Spirit (the Word speaking: “I know where I came from, and where I am going”)
Jesus sowed the Word of the Spirit — and the YIELD of the matured Word would be WHAT? MORE SPIRIT (men walking in the Spirit).
I still worry that sometimes I think something is “the Spirit” when it isn’t, and then I suffer torment away from God’s presence because I won’t do what MIGHT (or might not) be God’s will (and even if it truly isn’t, it may slightly be, which qualifies it for being God’s will. But there could be a MORE CLEAR understanding of ‘the will of God’ out there (with less torment & fear)…
I guess that is where “spiritual fathers” come in handy… like, they went through a lot of trouble understanding God’s will, and can render a clearer idea of God’s will?
There’s no room for “bones”; so-called “teachers” who speak too many bones are graveyards.
Good one Daniel. 🙂
I enjoy listening to Dr Brown’s teaching, but I don’t see eye to eye about his rapture beliefs. He believes in post-trib, I believe in pre-trib. I won’t stop listening to his teachings because of that.
Good night Daniel. Have a good one.
Eric,
Thanks
Debbie,
Thanks
BTW,
When I was talking about God anointing “liars”, I DID NOT have Dr. Brown in mind… I respect him more than 99.9% of other teachers.
Dan1el,
I would be getting into another debate on Calvinism here, but you’re quite wrong in writing (with regard to the Potter having the right to do what He wants to do with the clay), “That idea is not refuted; it is resisted by Dr. Brown. He does not come to the same conclusion as Apostle Paul does — to wit: WHO ARE YOU, O MAN, TO ANSWER GOD BACK?”
God forbid that I answer back to Him. He has every right to do what He wants to do, and IF — that’s Paul’s word — He wants to create some vessels for destruction, that’s His business. Paul continues the discussion through the next two chapters, ending with, “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all” (Rom 11:32). Amen! God desires to have mercy on all — the all not meaning merely Jew and Gentile but rather all who are bound over disobedience, meaning every human being. We can reject His mercy, but He delights to offer it to all people. I hope you can rejoice in this.
Sorry for the typo! I WON’T be getting into another debate, not I “would.”
Dr. Brown,
Please forgive me if I’m disrespectful… (and, just FYI, I’m not a Calvinist)
0. I heard you say that He finished his ideas two chapters later… but, I would say that IF what you said were true, it would
1. NEGATE Apostle Paul’s saying that He formed vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. Otherwise, there is no distinction between the two.
2. Also, it would NEGATE who Apostle Paul said the “vessels of mercy” were “–even us, who He has called”… without the Law, men would’ve justified themselves (while SOME would’ve confessed their sinfulness) — but, through the Law, He has shut up ALL under sin.
3. If what you are putting forth is true, then he wouldn’t have shown the difference between Esau and Jacob — a vessel of common use, and one of noble use.
4. Acts records “as many as were appointed unto eternal life believed”. They were appointed to it.
5. What about “God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.” Are you saying, then, that God no longer hardens anyone, because He opens the door for all men, or are you saying He doesn’t harden people once they become a Believer? He hardened the Galatians, and they went back into unbelief — Romans 11 (He can also cut you off, if you go into unbelief), and John 15 (if a man does not abide in Me) talk about this possibility?
Dr. Michael Brown,
Also, I don’t think you’re resisting it INTENTIONALLY — NEVER! I KNOW you’re very much a person who delights in Him — but, sort of ignoring it, and leaving it unanswered; or saying “it was a hypothetical”.
I think you’d do it because you couldn’t imagine a good God (Whose goodness we KNOW) could do what is being described — and I think it is a mystery, therefore.
What if God makes one man as a vessel to be destroyed?
I would think that it might be because the man refused God repeatedly, and as a consequence judgment was determined against him. Let’s remember that God is the father of spirits, (Heb 12:9) and we are the clay.
So what can a man do but to ask God if he will have mercy and make him into a vessel that will not be worthy of destruction, and be determined in his heart that he is willing to do the will of God, to listen to him, to be willing to humble himself, or be humbled, and will choose to be a sacrifice daily, take up the cross, etc?
What else can a man do? Well he can come to Jesus if God is still willing to draw him to his salvation.
Dan1el,
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts in post #38. As for your points in #37 — feel free to call in to discuss them one day, but I won’t be engaging the issue here. God bless!
The one loophole in all of this is when Jesus says to Pilate,
“You could have no authority over Me, unless it had been given to you from Heaven — therefore, the one who handed Me over has the greater sin.”
Judas handed Jesus over; but Jesus said that Heaven gave it over: could it have been (just as Jesus prayed that we should pray that we DO NOT BE LED INTO TEMPTATION ***BY GOD***) that God’s Hand (Heaven) acted in accordance with Judas’s willing??
We cannot make an argument that leaves God looking like He ‘did nothing wrong’ — because that would repudiate Paul’s reasoning: “That’s unfair! Who resists His will!?”
I guess, here, you could just say that Judas acted according as God formed him to act.
Edit:
1. Not saying that God sinned; but Judas.
2. ‘did nothing wrong’ — humanly speaking, as the argument in Romans 9 goes.
Dr. Brown,
Do you write down a daily schedule? How can you say what you’re going to do? Do you do it prayerfully?
I’ve began to read A Time For Holy Fire. Thank you Dr. Brown. Through it’s pages, the Lord is touching my heart. When that happens a man can not help but be changed. It’s the effect of the Word. May that fire remain.
“The Apostle Paul believed God made people to do evil” – Dan1el
I don’t see what glory a rigged game would bring to God. It would be like training my dog to bite people so that I could shoot it.
“If something doesn’t glorify Him, it is “injustice”.” – Dan1el
The framework you’re pushing is injustice then because it couldn’t lead to the glorification of God. God could surely have no glory in a rigged game – unless He is relying on us never realizing the full truth (that it was all rigged).
OK – this is offtopic of what you have been discussing here, but not entirely off-topic for the show.
Dr Brown mentioned that he is -FINALLY- going to seek medical attention for his persistent cough. Let’s agree to lift him and his doctor up, and ask G-d to give the doctor wisdom to treat Dr Brown so he can finally get relief from his cough. I think this is really important for a lot of reasons, but one thing I noticed is that sometimes when he coughs, Dr Brown sounds like he might be laughing or mocking the caller, which of course he would NOT do, but you know how easily that sort of thing can be misread.
Praying for you, Dr Brown!! And STILL LISTENING !!
Michael — thanks! I’ve had this coughing issue on and off for a few years now, and it really is miserable for a talk show host and teacher and preacher. My relief will also be the relief of my listeners. 🙂
Actually, I HAVE thought, “Why did Michael Brown laugh just then? That was a serious thing that was just said, and it really wasn’t funny. I know he loves God — I just don’t understand; I’ll leave it at that.” LOL
Glad I finally understand.
Have a question in Esther (chapters 3-9) regarding the hanging of Haman. Since he,and apparently his family/house, hated the “Jew-Mordecai,” and king Ahasuerus granted Esters’ request, even tho Haman built the gallows for Mordecai(isn’t that a hoot! :), was this the origin of Hamas? If not can you help me out on their origin. Thanks for your Line of Fire broadcast, keep up the good work, and I do ask a favor, please keep in prayer my wife (Kathy) who we were just advised of colon cancer, she could use the extra uplifting. Glory to the Lord and our Heavenly Father for our salvation,a brother in Christ, Rick H.