Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 1)

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Dr. Brown answers challenges given him by traditional rabbis as to why Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, focusing today on challenges from his friend, Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal. Rabbi Blumenthal’s blog is: http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/. Dr. Brown is currently working on written refutations of Rabbi Blumenthal’s major articles.
Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There are thousands of Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah, but it comes back to the old saying, 0+0+0=0.  Matthew 24:35 remains everlastingly true: Heaven and earth will pass away (as will all Jewish Objections to Jesus), but His words will remain unchanged.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The Messiah has come, in fulfillment of scripture, in fulfillment of what the Torah spoke of, and died for our sins that we might live.  And as we turn to Him in repentance and faith, no matter how grievous, ugly and miserable our sin, there is mercy, there is forgiveness, there is a new life.

Featured Resources:

Think it Thru “In Search of Atonement” by Dr. Brown: What do people following the primary religions of the world do to receive a clean slate with God following wrongful behavior? Find out when Dr. Michael Brown takes to the streets and even the river to obtain an answer.

What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus? by Dr. Brown: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.

Other Resources:

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 2 by Dr. Brown: Incisive and direct, this book provides an honest, fair, and thorough discussion of common objections on theological themes. Brown’s answers are thoroughly documented and foot noted.

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Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 3 by Dr. Brown: This third installment of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus looks specifically at questions raised about messianic prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel, Psalms, Haggai, and Zechariah.

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown:  In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.

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Who Is Jesus?  Dr. Brown/Blumhofe Debate [DVD]: If you could travel 2,000 years back in time and be an eyewitness to a debate between Paul the Apostle and the most outstanding Pharisee over the Messiahship of Jesus, it could not be more exciting than this debate.

Countering the Counter-Missionaries [22 mp3 set] :  An important resource will be a great faith builder for those who are struggling, a great outreach tool for those who are seeking, and a great source of edification and enrichment for those who are involved in Jewish evangelism.

Dr. Brown answers challenges given him by traditional rabbis as to why Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, focusing today on challenges from his friend, Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal. Rabbi Blumenthal’s blog is: http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/. Dr. Brown is currently working on written refutations of Rabbi Blumenthal’s major articles.
619 Comments
  1. Thank you so much, Goldberg, for your reply. It helps to shine as much light as possible on misconceptions and prejudices that have been perpetuated for millennia. And those who “think” some things, without looking for clarification, will now have some things to mull over. Myself included. 8) We really needed to have this conversation.

    The most interesting thing that I’ve learned is the disparity between the Christian view of salvation as opposed to the idea in Judaism. That is food for much thought.

    Thanks again!

  2. Thank you Sheila,

    By the way, that figure I mentioned before, 4 out of 5400 pages, that’s a maximum of 0.07% of the Talmud dedictaed to christianity.

    I would have thought that this point would have caught your attention as much as the issue of salvation. The notion that the Talmud – and by extension – rabbinic Juadism came into existence as a reaction to christianity is one of the more absurd and utterly unsubstantiated christian delusions about judaism.

  3. yisroel,
    1. I suppose the “right” answer might be “prophecy fulfilled”.
    2. No true Christian is moved if a “Christian leader” falls, or is wrong (at any time) – such as “Luther”. It just doesn’t register. Even in the Law is calls for merciless stoning of a lawbreaker (you will not have mercy on them).

    Debbie,
    I don’t think it is bitterness; it is an understandable reaction. I guess I need to think before I speak a little more.

    Goldberg,
    1. Yitzhak Rabin, himself, said that Yehoshua is coming soon; so, it isn’t “Christian”.
    2. It DOES say to “hasten” His coming.

  4. Daniel,

    As you know, I often have trouble following what you are trying to say, although I think I figured out this one.

    First of all, you are not referring to Yitzchok Rabin, the assasinated former Israeli prime minister, you are referring to Yitzchok Kaduri a deceased kabbalistic rabbi

    Second, not everyone agrees that he actually wrote the note in question. Some consider it a forgery.

    Third, even if he did write it. what he wrote is that the messiah’s name will be Yehoshua – the Hebrew version of Joshua – an exceedingly common contemporary Hebrew male name (my grandfather’s name in fact). So the alleged thing he wrote has absolutely no indication of being a reference to Jesus.

    Fourth, the man was a faithful orthodox jew his entire life.

    Even if one takes the Kaduri story at face value, the idea that it refers to Jesus, or a second coming of any sort, or that it is in any way a ratification of christian thinking on the part of a lifelong devoted Orthodox Jew is really insulting to the intelligence.

  5. Goldberg,

    I was gone looking for those pages… I should have mentioned it as being very significant. I’m glad you brought it to light. I truly am.

  6. I totally posted a correction :/ thanks a lot anyways !

    About your second point, even his SON recognizes it as being authentic. Is this not true?

  7. Daniel,

    Perhaps..but who cares? The more important points are my third and fourth point.

    Do you actually believe that a man who never once in his life articulated a christian thought, should be held up as evidence of Jewish christology because he might have scrwaled a note claiming that the jewish messiah will have the name Joshua? is anyone supposed to take that kind of thing seriously?

    I could just as easily make the same pronouncement myself right now. In fact I will.

    “I think the Jewish messiah will be named Yehoshua”.

    (My buther BTW, thinks his name will be Murray.)

    It doesn’t make me a christian, and it didn’t make Rabbi Kaduri a christian.

  8. Sheila,

    I understand your curiosity to see what the Talmud might have said about Jesus.

    But you may still be missing the point. It’s not about what the Talmud may have said about jesus, it’s about the Talmud’s deafening silence about Jesus.

  9. Daniel,

    You need to qualify statements like this one:

    2. “No true Christian is moved if a “Christian leader” falls, or is wrong (at any time) – such as “Luther”. It just doesn’t register.”

    And when someone turns and does what is evil, do people generally remember any of the good things they have done? Not usually. Those things Luther wrote more than “register” with me! I left off reading even one more word of what he wrote after encountering them.

    That he broke away from the Roman Catholic Church is to his credit and our benefit, but, the man, himself, is forever colored by putrid rhetoric.

  10. Rabbi Blumenthal,

    Thank you, too, for noticing the willingness of so many to engage on this forum. It’s encouraging to get a nod from you.

    I pray that our interactions will continue to be even more fruitful.

    Thanks.

  11. Sheila,
    I meant that a true believer’s faith is not shaken by another believer’s fall — it only does one thing: makes them redouble their efforts.

    Dr. Goldberg,
    So, he did actually say the Messiah’s Name would be Yehoshua? Yes, he did.
    My thought is this: he was a man TRULY seeking, and God had mercy and revealed the Truth to him. The same has happened before: in 1 Ki 17:9, Elijah is sent to a widow in Zarephath of Sidon — a woman OUTSIDE the covenant — because she found grace before God.
    Today, it correlates in this way: Yitzhak is “outside of the (new) covenant — as the Sidonian woman was outside of the covenant — but truly seeking, and was visited by the Lord.
    Rahab was a prostitute; but, apparently, had more desirable qualities than the entire previous generation of Israelites (except Joshua & Caleb).

    The same has happened in the middle-east where Muslims have had dreams of meeting Yehoshua in their dreams — resulting in their placing their faith in Him, even upon penalty of death!

    To me, this is not the SAME, but a SIMILAR thing. It isn’t that different.

    Thanks!

  12. Goldberg,
    I don’t know why I make so many mistakes in writing with you!! LOL I called you “Dr.” sorry!

  13. Daniel,

    A couple of things.

    First as you said, this interpretation of the alleged incident with Rabbi Kaduri is,as you said, your “thought” not any kind of evidence, which was the reason you first mentioned it. You were trying to demonstrate that this is a Jewish concept. Sorry, no dice. If that’s your idea of proof, I won’t be hiring you as my lawyer any time soon.

    Second. What’s the deal? Is Jesus name Yeshua or Yehoshua. These are two phonetically similar but distinct names. Yehoshua – the name Rabbi Kaduri supposedly scribbled, is the Hebrew of Joshua. Are we now saying Joshua is close enough to Jesus to make any specious argument we want.

    Look, you want to see christianity in this vague and questionable story about Rabbi Kaduri?, Knock yourself out. But don’t go around making unsubstantiated statements that Rabbi Kaduri endorsed the notion of a second coming. He did nothing of the sort, unless you are predisposed to see it through your lens.

  14. Goldberg,
    I didn’t say that he endorsed Christianity even once; all I said was that a leader of YOURS has alerted you to the fact that: 1. Messiah is coming soon, and 2. that His Name happened to be Yehoshua.

    Question about names: isn’t “Yehonadab” (יהונדב), son of Rechab (of 2 Ki 10:15) the selfsame “Yonadab” (יונדב) — forefather of “the Rechabites” — (of Jeremiah 35)?

  15. I wonder what the “odds” (probability) are that the Messiah’s Name would be “Yeshua or Yehoshua”, out of all the Jewish names that exist… the fact that Messiah would tell Yitzhak Kaduri His Wonderful Name was Yehoshua.

  16. Dan1el
    Fulfilled prophecy is indeed one biblical criteria (Deuteronomy 18:21) – but it is only one – there are two questions that this criteria does not answer – firts of all how about books that have no porphecy in tehm such as esther – Ruth, Chronicles etc. – how can we know taht they are authentic – and second – when tehre is a debate as to wether a prophecy is or is not fulfilled such as the debate about Luke 19:44 – who gets to decide?

  17. Yisroel,
    1. Ok.
    2. I kind of feel like you’re looking for a specific answer that I cannot give — will you tell me what answer you’re fishing for? lol
    3. I don’t worry about Luke, since I don’t believe it is Scripture, anyways. (I looked it up, anyways — is that a prophecy from the TNK?)

  18. Daniel,

    “I wonder what the “odds” (probability) are that the Messiah’s Name would be “Yeshua or Yehoshua”, out of all the Jewish names that exist… ”

    First of all, you posed the statistical question incorectly. An imminent jewish messiah (the kind of messiah Rabbi Kaduri believed in) is to be found among our contemporary population which means the real question you mean to pose is: What percentage of the jewish male population currently has the name yeshoshua? In other words, Zephania does not get the same probabilistic weighting as, say Moshe or Aaron wich are dar more common.

    Well I did an admitedly unscientific samplig of the names of the class lists of my two sons. Out of 59 total students, 5 have the name Yehoshua, or roughly 1 in 12. Now let’s say my sample was in fact off by a factor of 100%, so that the real probability is 1 in 24.

    Yep, that would be the kind of astronomically unikely outcome for which I would abandon my faith 🙂

    Now I realize that my method, was not exactly rigorous. Then gain as, I’ve already explained, it’s about as rigorous as your question deserves.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Be well.

  19. Goldberg,
    1. First of all, shalom.
    2. I don’t want you to “abandon” your faith; I only asked you to consider carefully a statement one of YOUR OWN leaders made, dear.
    3. If you think about it, it really isn’t a question “I” asked; it is a question that is being BEGGED by logic… and, yes, it would not take into consideration names like Zephaniah, etc.; but even with that being said, each of those biblical names have branched out into EVEN MORE contemporary names (raising the statistical improbability). From Yaakov has come MANY names, for example. What are the chances that Messiah would just so happen to have that particular name — Yeshua/Yehoshua — out of ALL the possible names He could have had? Messiah has told Rabbi Kaduri His Name, already. Think about it: what are the chances that it would be the same Name as Yeshua, Who we believe is the Anointed One?
    4. Is “Jehonadab” “Jonadab”? Why no response?
    5. I love you; you be well, too.

  20. Daniel,

    I’ll address only the one of your questions that I haven’t yet, the Yehoshua/Yeshua issue. Yes the two names are of the same derivation, but different names nonetheless. In fact I have never seen a piece of missionary literature that refers to jesus as Yehoshua. It’s always Yeshua (a historically questionable assertion in itself.)

    Isn’t it frustrating Daniel?

    Imagine how much more excited you guys would have been if he had actually indicated Yeshua. It would probably be by a factor of about 1,000, since virtually no-one today is named Yeshua, as opposed to yehoshua which is the name of perhaps every 20th Jewish male. But alas, he didn’t. (Not that it would matter much even if he had.)

    Why must these spiritual forshadowings of christianity always be so darn unspecific.

    If God is trying so deparately to reach the lost sheep of israel, why doesn’t he just say so.

    He had no problem doing that at Sinai.

    Oh well…

  21. Goldberg,
    1. Do you agree that the Word of the Lord, itself, uses TWO names (Jehonadab & Jonadab) to describe the selfsame person?
    2. As in Job, there are forces, checks, and balances at work that are beyond human comprehension.
    3. Even those the Blessed One “reached” at Sinai rejected His ordinances, and were slain by the Same One, in the desert.

  22. This is my story….

    I know who I am in Christ, not 1 soul or demon from the pit of hell can shake me. I am grounded in firm foundation in Christ. The Lord has gifted me with boldness. I’m not afraid to cast out demons in Jesus name, or to witness to the lost. I am secure in my Savior. I am an instrument for the Lord.

    Just wanted to share my life with you all!!! 🙂

  23. Thanks, Debbie, for sharing that.

    Goldberg,

    What you touched upon is of great interest to me and I’d like to persue those thoughts.

    In Judaism, you say that the LORD will bring a Messiah in the likeness of David, isn’t that correct? Yet, the LORD, Himself, speaks as though it were Him who is doing the saving. Many times throughout the OT we have God speaking of a future redemption of the Israelites using the language of He, Himself (personally) coming to save you. How do you reconcile that?

    You put the onus on Chritianity to work it out, which we’ve done in the concept of the triune nature of the complex manifestation that is God. I think Judaism needs to better reconcile it from Mt. Sinai and forward into the rest of the OT Scriptures.

  24. Goldberg and Daniel,

    The transliteration of Yehoshua in the Greek Septuagint is identical to the word that is used in the New Testament for “Jesus”. That no missionary literature, that you have read, spells Messiah’s name correctly or pronounces it correctly is not an arguing point for His name being Yeshua instead of Yehoshua, but only for Christians not recognizing the transliteration in the NT to be of the same name, “Joshua.” The name that means YHWH is salvation is the name of the Messiah in the NT.

    Shalom

  25. Thanks Sheila
    What inspired me to write that was when Saul(now Paul) was persecuting those who called on the name of Jesus. In Acts 9:1-16. Then the Lord revealed himself to Saul(Paul).

    I’m getting a “revelation” now as I’m writing this. Saul was persecuting those who belong to Christ. Now The Lord said to Paul(Saul) now you are going to suffer for me. You are going to suffer persecution. (Reap what you sow)

    Acts 9:15-16
    But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

    Paul was a hard core Pharisee who hated Jesus and His people. But look what the Lord has done.

    Very, very interesting.

    Reading this fed my spirit and that is what led me to write my above post.

  26. Sheila,

    I responded to some of your questions on the Believers and the Law of Moses thread. See post 145 for details.

    Shalom

  27. Sheila,

    You asked” In Judaism, you say that the LORD will bring a Messiah in the likeness of David, isn’t that correct? Yet, the LORD, Himself, speaks as though it were Him who is doing the saving. Many times throughout the OT we have God speaking of a future redemption of the Israelites using the language of He, Himself (personally) coming to save you. How do you
    reconcile that?”

    First you need to remember that the OT never speaks of “Saving” using the root word “l’hoshia” to refer to the christian notion of saving from the damnation of sin. As I mentioned to you yesterday, Judasim doesn’t believe in this christian concept of salvation because we don’t believe in the need for it, becasue we don’t believe we are born dammed by orignal sin.

    With that in mind, your question only arises because of your christian orientation that insists on attributing divinity to the messiah as a figure who can save us from our sin. Thus to you, God saying He is himself doing something and also saying the messiah will do it strikes you are forcing a need for a God with mutiple facets, ie the trinity.

    To the Jew, this question is no question at all. To illustate consider Moses’ role in the exodus. God tells Moses in Exodus 3:10 that he should go and “Bring the children of Israel out of Egypt” but in the ten commandments God, of course, says “I am the Lord that took you out of Egypt”

    So who did it? God or Moses. The answer is, of course, that God did it through Moses. So too, God ultimately does all of these things and sometimes he uses human agents as his tools, such as Moses in the case of the Exodus, or the Messiah, in the case of the ultimate redemption.

  28. Goldberg,

    Alright that is a difficult thing to understand. Why are you looking for the one who will “bruise his head” (the agent who tempted us to sin-his head)if the battle is not a spiritual one? Because, obviously, the personification of the satan shows up in the King of Tyre and the King of the North, and such, as a spiritual entity that we can’t see but, who is at work in these persons. So, isn’t our salvation ultimately a spiritual one? In the world to come we are no longer clothed in the same flesh–why is that if this flesh is perfectly alright like it is?

    Maybe I need to rephrase that. Do you understand my question?

  29. Sheila,

    Here is a quote from the link you posted:

    “These very same names and titles were chosen by the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint when transliterating the Names Yehoshua/Yeshua to Iesous over two hundred times…”

    Both names have the same transliteration. My point is that there is no way to know from the scripture whether His name was pronounced Yehoshua or Yeshua. Joshua is the modern English way of saying Yehoshua. Jesus is a the modern English way of saying Iesou. Iesu is the Latin way of saying Iesous. Iasous is the Greek way of indicating Yehoshua or Yeshua. We do not know for sure how the Greeks pronounced it. I think that they did the best they could to say His name.

    We do not have a tape recording of how the first century Hebrews or Greeks pronounced His name. My point is that Yehoshua is the original name. It is spelled/transliterated the same as Messiah’s name in Greek NT, which is the only source we have of His name. Yeshua may be the name that was in common use during the second temple, but that does not mean that Messiah was not given the older version of that name. And once again, we do not, and as far as I know, can not know from the Greek which it was. So the argument above, between Dan1el and Goldberg, does not prove anything.

    Let me go on record as being the first missionary that Goldberg has heard to say that Messiah’s name is Yehoshua, pronounced similarly to Joshua with a “Y” sound in place of the “J” sound. (And let me go on record that by missionary I mean to both Judaism and Christianity.) Thus I write Y’shua, so as to give the reader the opportunity to say it the best way that they know.

    Shalom

  30. Bo,

    “Yeshua may be the name that was in common use during the second temple, but that does not mean that Messiah was not given the older version of that name”

    Well, then, since you say we don’t really know, why do you debate it? Just use the name that’s come down to us–no?

  31. Honestly, it’s not something that I would lose sleep over. Not a battle I would choose to wage. I’m still working on the other. I saw your responses.

  32. Sheila,

    You said:

    “Maybe I need to rephrase that. Do you understand my question?”

    No. I don’t

    First of all, do you accept my Moses analogy of why God can say that both He and some human can both be doing something?

    If so, then we need to isolate PRECISELY what actions the OT explicitly attributes to the Messiah. If those roles are those of a person leading his people to physical redemption then the same logic would apply.

    However, I assume you know that there are many verses in the OT which you have learned (or been taught) to understand to refer to Jesus/the Messiah which Jews understand differently. Your understandings result in your assigning certain roles to the Messiah. Our understanding does not. Isaiah 53 being the most obvious example.

    Needless to say, without your willingness to do alot of reading on the Jewish understanding of these questions, we will be speaking hopelessly different lanaguages.

    If you are interested, I recommend Rabbi Blumenthal’s writings as well as those you can link to on the Messiahtruth website if you are interested.

  33. Goldberg,
    It goes far beyond that…

    Exo 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, for YOUR PEOPLE, WHOM YOU BROUGHT UP OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, have corrupted themselves.

    Exo 32:11 But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, “O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against YOUR PEOPLE, WHOM YOU HAVE BROUGHT OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT with great power and with a mighty hand?

    That is how close their relationship was…

    The Messiah will be “as Moses”. What is one way the Messiah would be as Moses?
    EmmanuEL — “With us is God”.

    What did the Blessed One tell Moses?
    Exo 4:16 And (Aaron) shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and THOU SHALT BE TO (Aaron) IN GOD’S STEAD.”

    The the two examples shown here, Moses was “AS (the Holy and Most High and Blessed) GOD”; Messiah will, in a similar way, be “AS GOD” to us.

    This is as Yeshua, who called Himself “The Good Shepherd” — David said that LORD was his Shepherd, in Psalm 23. There are many other examples like this; He is “AS GOD” to us.

  34. Daniel,

    You forgot Exodus 7:1 which again uses a word ususally reserved for God to indicate that Moses was placed in a position of authority over Pharoh.

    And yet, no one EVER so much as suggested that Moses be worshipped. That would have been idolatrous, of course

    And somehow you think that those very verses justify extending the Moses paradigm so far as to atrribute divinity to the Messiah.

    Absolutely amazing !

    Can you even begin to see why Jews have an itty bitty problem with that?

  35. Goldberg,
    It says He would be LIKE Moses; sometimes the thing it is “like” is much greater than it, itself — no?

  36. (meaning, Moses is the Lesser, and Messiah the Greater thing to which Moses pointed, and of which he was a foreshadowing)

  37. Daniel,

    You said:

    “It says He would be LIKE Moses; sometimes the thing it is “like” is much greater than it, itself — no?”

    Yes. And if you are comfortable that such reasoning justifies going from levels of human leadership to elevating a human to deity, then I have no further comment on this topic.

  38. Sheila,

    So long as you know that Jesus is not the name that has come down to us…it is a name that has been added to, taken away from and changed via lack of careful scholarship and transliteration problems.

    Shalom

  39. Sheila,

    I’ll go with the name that means what it is supposed to mean, is the same as the leader that came after Moses, and that is represented by the Greek transliteration.

    Shalom

  40. Goldberg,

    I do see our differences and that they will not be bridged without effort and mutual respect. To begin with, our working definitions are eons apart. Nonetheless, I will proceed with an open mind and I will persevere to better understand Judaism.

    ברכות לך

    I hope it says, “Blessings to you.”

  41. Goldberg,
    What if the body was just his means of getting things done in this world, but He, Himself pre-existed? Even before, He made a “tent” to live in on earth; what if the body was a “tent” of sorts?

    The first commandment is to love God, and the second is to love your neighbor — the two are not spaced too far apart: we are made after His Image; it isn’t such a stretch for Him to take on His own Image.

    Isaiah 46
    Isa 46:1 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols are upon the beasts, and upon the cattle; the things that ye carried about are made a load, a burden to the weary beast.
    Isa 46:2 They stoop, they bow down together, they could not deliver the burden; and themselves are gone into captivity.
    Isa 46:3 Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that are borne by Me from the birth, that are carried from the womb:
    Isa 46:4 Even to old age I am the same, and even to hoar hairs will I carry you; I have made, and I will bear; yea, I will carry, and will deliver.

    Here, He says that the idols are made in the images of the cattle, but the cattle cannot bear them; comparably, WE are made after the Image of HIM — BUT, with the difference that HE CAN and WILL carry us “even to grey hairs”. WHAT GRACE and LOVE!!

    Cattle ——> God
    Idol ——–> Human
    Can’t carry -> Can Carry

    Is it such a stretch for Him to take on His Own Image, and go about doing good in it? (This does not diminish His pre-existence.)
    Then, it isn’t the human body that is being worshiped; it is THE ONE Who predates the Likeness taken on that is being worshiped. He existed BEFORE the image was taken on:

    Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, WHOSE COMING FORTH IS FROM OF OLD, FROM ANCIENT DAYS.

    Get it?

  42. Daniel,

    I do get it.

    Consider, that you began your last post to me with “What if”.

    And that’s really at the heart of the issue, when the stakes are as high as sin of idolatry.

    Please read Rabbi Blumenthals essays which explain why the Jewish belief system can not accept “what if’s”, vague symbolism, and forshadowings as reasons for redirecting our worship away from our singular focus on the God who revealed himself at Sinai.

  43. Goldberg,
    1. What you don’t realize is that EVERY SIN COMMITTED is equivalent to idolatry.

    Who will help you escape the wrath of God on your continual idolizing of self (and men) to the transgressing of God’s Laws?
    Do you LOVE your neighbor as yourself?
    Do you COVET anything anyone owns?
    Do you REJOICE in doing all the commandments?

    Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
    and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to LOVE MERCY, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    2. “What if” is for those who don’t believe; for those who do believe…

    Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
    Php 2:6 WHO, THOUGH HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not count EQUALITY WITH GOD a thing to be grasped,
    Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, TAKING ON THE FORM OF A SERVANT, BEING BORN IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.
    Php 2:8 And BEING FOUND IN HUMAN FORM, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
    Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.”

    If God didn’t have a Son, NOTHING else in nature would have “offspring”. An artist expresses himself; He did, as well. Trees bear fruit; animals bear offspring of their own — why? Because He who made them has His Own Heir. The Heavens declare His glory, and the rest of His Creation does, too.

    Have a good day =) talk to you soon. I hope you understand.

  44. Daniel,

    1) So by your logic, if I occasionally transgress the sin of coveting, I might as well go all the way for full idolatry is that it? Sorry, OT judaism subcribes to no such doctrine. If one is basing there beliefs on the OT scripture only – as Jews do – then your first point is an unsubstantiated and utter falsehood. You are trying to prove chrsitian doctrine by assumimng chrsitian doctrine. The OT and the OT prophets make clear over and over and over again, that the sin of idolatry stands apart as the greatest rebellion against god.

    2) Quoting the NT has no value in trying to prove a point under the belief system of the OT.
    Do mormons quoting the book of Mormon impress you? Well, that’s how Jews view the new testament.

    3) Your last point is a just a bit of christian preaching.

    You are trying to prove a point by asuming its truth.

    Sorry. No dice.

  45. …and you also asked: “Who will help you escape the wrath of God on your continual idolizing of self (and men) to the transgressing of God’s Laws?”

    Show me the OT verse or verses that suggest that I need a WHO to help me escape sin, rather than a WHAT, as in repentance.

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