“Ultimate Reconciliation,” Heaven, Hell, and Rob Bell: A Biblical Analysis.


[Download MP3]
Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There is one God, and there is one way to know God:  through Jesus.  There are two paths; one leads to life, and the other to destruction.  Let us do all that we can to model, demonstrate, and proclaim the way of life, and lift up Jesus who Himself is the life.  Let us call others to repent of sin and selfishness, and to remind them that there are consequences for rejecting life, namely, eternal death.  The word is very clear on that.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Do you know the Lord?  Are you walking with God?  Are you in Fellowship with Him?  Are you in right relationship with Him?  Do you know your sins are forgiven, that you’ve come to know God not just as taskmaster or judge, but Father?  Have you come to receive eternal life through Jesus and what He has done for you, bringing you into relationship both with Him and the Father?  If so, live this out to the full, and tell the good news to everyone.  Use whatever opportunities the Lord sets before you, recognizing that what people do with Jesus in this world will have consequences for the rest of their lives, and consequences in the world to come.  There are consequences now, there are consequences forever; let us make known the mercies of God to everyone, so we can know and be with Him forever.

Lengthy Review of Love Wins

Interview with Rob Bell about Universalism and Love Wins

Visit Rob Bell’s Website

How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown

Think it Thru:  In Search of Atonement (DVD)

Or watch for free online

s

102 Comments
  1. christian,

    Did you notice that works that we were created to walk in were specified in advance. We are no longer gentiles, but are now grafted into Israel. There is one set of rules. The ones that were before ordained that us former gentiles should walk in are the same ones that YHHW gave to Israel.

    Ephesians 2
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:…
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    The once foreigners that are now fellowcitizens with the saints (Israelites) have the same set of kingdom rules.

    Matthew 5
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    We know for sure that those that do not keep YHWH’s commandments (the lawless, i.e. the ones that pay no attention to Torah) will not get to eat of the tree of life/inherit eternal life. Those that neglect even the smallest commandment will be relegated to being least in the kingdom. Those that keep and teach all of YHWH’s commandments will be great in the kingdom.

    The kingdom of heaven is not about going to heaven. It is about ruling and reigning with Messiah…being a royal priesthood and a holy nation. YHWH’s requirements for holiness (being saints) are found in Torah…the before ordained works that we are to walk in. Without holiness no one will see YHWH.

    Hebrews 12
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

    We are not truly loving YHWH or our brother/neighbor if we are not keeping YHHW’s commandments.

    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. The real New Covenant is supposed to write YHWH’s Torah on our hearts and mind.

    Hebrews 8
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    The New Covenant is a relationship with YHWH that is so consuming that we desire to keep His commandments. We love His law. We purify ourselves as He is pure. We be holy as He is holy. We become commandment keepers instead of only being hearers of the word. It is having the faith of Y’shua and keeping YHWH’s commandments.

    We are not participating in the New Covenant if we do not have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. They are not grievous to those that have real love for YHWH and His children. And please notice that the New Covenant is to Israel. We must be grafted in to partake. There is only one law for the strangers and the home born.

    Shalom

  2. Hi Bob,

    Thank you for your affirmation of “agreeing to disagree”. I’m thankful for our brotherhood in the Spirit as we seek Jesus together.

    You asked about Matt.25:46-“And these will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life.”

    My belief is that to live eternally is to live with Jesus. In other words, I don’t believe that there is any other “eternal life” spoken of in the Bible. The consistent theme throughout the Old and New testaments is that the wicked will cease to exist, not live eternally. How many times was Jesus asked how to INHERIT or OBTAIN eternal life? How many chances did He miss to warn us that we are eternal beings and that our choice is simply where we are to spend eternity?

    As for the worm not turning – Jesus is referring to Gehenna – the place where any Jew would be horrified to be thrown into. Jesus is emphasizing the permanent consequences of unrepentant sinners. If some garbage or animal failed to land in the fire it would instead be devoured by maggots. Jesus’ point is that whatever was thrown into the valley never came out again; it was totally consumed, either by fire or by worms or maggots.

    May I ask you a question? If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?

    God bless,

    Larry

  3. How then, would being dead be any kind of punishment at all? If you’re dead, you’re dead. No torment. No punishment. Just dead. Doesn’t make sense to me.

    On the other hand, having to live in a darkness so thick you could cut it with a knife, because you rejected the light of life and you are forever dying, forever conscious, forever separated from God, now, that would be hell.

    I believe it’s forever because when a Christian dies, it says he goes to be with the Lord. Well, his body is in the grave, so, it must be his spirit (soul) that leaves his body. And when the Lord returns, those who have died will have their bodies resurrected as new. So, it seems we are body and soul (spirit) and we will spend eternity either in the light of the Lord, or, as it says, in outer darkness, where we wish we could just die!

    And, too, in order for the promises to be fulfilled concerning the righteous, they must come in the next life. I say this because we see the wicked prosper and the righteous are persecuted, so, how can those promises be true otherwise? They certainly aren’t true at this present time that I can see!

    So, the “body” of the wicked is turned to ashes, but, their soul (their conscious self) is tormented forever.

    It horrible to even think about!! Go and save some souls!!! “Pull them out of the very fire.”

  4. I left out the statements concerning the wicked. Neither have those come true in this present age, so, it must yet be in store for them to receive the things they have done as their reward.

    Otherwise, there are way too many statements that would fail concerning them.

  5. Hi Christian,

    The story you’re referring to is a parable about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. If this story is a warning of eternal torment, then wouldn’t Jesus have at least mentioned the righteous deeds of the beggar or the unrighteous deeds of the rich man? Why is there absolutely no reference to the faith or sin of these two characters?

    God bless,

    Larry

  6. Hi Sheila,

    You said:

    “How then, would being dead be any kind of punishment at all? If you’re dead, you’re dead. No torment. No punishment. Just dead. Doesn’t make sense to me. ”

    You’ve apparently misunderstood my position. The unsaved who have died are indeed very agonizingly awaiting final judgment at the great white throne. Please read Revelation to get a picture of what an awful fate awaits them. Why must eternal torture be the only way that the Lord deals with the wicked? I’m not suggesting that there won’t be a period of torment after being thrown into the lake of fire. I just fail to see scriptural support for eternal torment.

    God bless,

    Larry

  7. I’m eagerly awaiting anyone to address my question above that may have gotten lost due to the length of my reply, to wit:

    If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?

    God bless,

    Larry

  8. Larry,
    I beg to differ with your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. It was a true story. Whenever Jesus gave parables He would not give specific names. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus specifically gives names Abraham, Lazarus. Jesus is warning people that there is a Hell. It is real. It is a WARNING story.

    In the beginning when God created man He breathed life into man. When the Lord has given man a spirit, that spirit never, ever dies. It lives forever and ever. Eternity. Our physical bodies will perish but our spirit will live forever. It will live in either Heaven or Hell. For to say there is no Hell is saying that Jesus died on the cross was all in vain. Jesus died to prevent us from going from to Hell.

    As for your question.
    King David wrote this.

    Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Blessing upon you Larry.

  9. The book of Job, scholars agree as the oldest, says the wicked are brought forth from their graves to suffer the wrath of God. Job 21:30 “That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.”

    In the Revelation, again, they are “reserved” for that day. We do know that Jesus spoke truth in every word he uttered. Even in the parables, he is relating Kingdom Truths. (i.e. Lazarus and the rich man)

    Therefore, separation from God is eternal and that is punishment enough, to be separated from light and love for eternity. Otherwise, where is the truth in the Word concerning the wicked? When are they repaid for their deeds? Hitler? Stalin?

  10. Dear Larry,

    I would like to address this issue of life and death to you and how they are defined. I believe this will clear up some of your issues based on the way you worded some of your posts. Please pray before you read this, to God, that if there is any truth in this post, let it come out. In Jesus’ name. Amen. Thank you.

    Throughout the Bible deadness, death, life, etc also take on symbolic terms. For example Paul spoke to the church in Ephesus about being “dead” in their sins and now they are “alive” through Jesus. Were they really “dead” or is this talking about separation from God?

    “There are many kinds of life: vegetable life, animal life, mental life, moral life, and spiritual life. A being might be alive in one sense but dead in another. To be spiritually dead does not mean that we are physically dead, socially dead, or psychologically dead. Yet it is a real death, a dead death nonetheless.” (Guzik)

    “The most vital part of man’s personality – the spirit – is dead to the most important factor in life – God.” (Wood)

    “Not in a moral sense, nor a mental sense, but in a spiritual sense, poor humanity is dead, and so the word of God again and again most positively describes it.” (Spurgeon)

    In Psalm 139, David speaks about it being impossible for himself to be separated from God while on earth. The lowest pit or the highest valley. Paul somewhat echos this in the latter part of Romans 8 explaining how we can never be separated from the love which God has for us, for all mankind.

    On the flip side, there is a punishment mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 verses 7B-9, “…When the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..” (As rendered in the New American Standard Bible)

    As you can see here they do not know God, they are spiritually dead. They do not obey and they reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus. The punishment for this is what? The punishment is that they will remain the spiritual deadness state of not knowing God, not being alive in a spiritual sense. They will be eternally cut off from His presence, glory and power.

    If Paul really thought they – the unbeliever will cease to exist, that would’ve been the perfect time to say it! In an ultimate description of what the punishment of the unbeliever is.

    To quote John 17:3, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    I must ask you, how do you come to the conclusion that eternal life (which is defined by Jesus) is anything less than knowing God? Spending eternity in hell, a state that which you are separated from God is in no way eternal life. Even if you are conscious.

    Take Care,

    Eric

  11. Larry (and others),

    I used to struggle with reconciling what seemed to be two different analogies concerning what happens to the wicked as opposed to those declared righteous. In some verses it seems the wicked are just cut off–that’s it for them. They turn to ashes beneath our feet. But, when we move into the NT it seems the Lord taught us of what was truly their fate. And, too, the Lord conquered death. Therefore the fate of all is eternity “somewhere”. You’re soul doesn’t “stay” dead. Even in the OT it seems the dead are discussed as being “conscious” of where they find themselves. Ezekiel speaks of the dead in hell stirring themselves up to great the newcomers. Daniel says as much when he relates to us that, Dan 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to “everlasting” life, and some to shame and “everlasting” contempt.”
    Dan 12:3 “And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “everlasting” only means everlasting when speaking of life. It has to mean the exact same thing for both life and contempt.

    This is what the Hebrew Lexicon says about it:

    Lexicon Results
    Strong’s H5769 – `owlam
    b) (of future)
    1) for ever, always
    2) continuous existence, perpetual
    3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

    My thinking was stretched when I was considering what someone said to me about all mankind being made in the “image of God.” And so, I had to consider what is meant by that. How can we say that Hitler, or aethiests , or, terrorists and those who absolutely hate God are made in God’s image? And the NT says of Cain, that “he was of his father, the devil.” So, did he start out in God’s image and then something went terribly wrong? Was it just that he gave in to the “sin that was crouching at his door” and that “desired to have him”? I had to stretch myself in that, I believe being made in God’s image (God is Spirit) would mean that we are both body and “spirit” and for that reason we are eternal beings and we “choose” to spend eternity in one of two places. When God formed us from the dust of the ground (and science says the human body shares the same elements as dirt!) we were not animated until He breathed in to us the breath of life. So, until He gave us a “spirit” we were clay in the hands of the Potter. Anyone have any ideas on what it means to be “made in the image of God”? I could use some help with that for another forum discussion.

    Another fact from science is that matter cannot dissipate-it only changes form. And that makes sense to me when we think of the human being as “matter”. We don’t cease to exist, we just change form.

  12. Hi Christian,

    Thanks for your perspective. It’s extraordinary to me that the parable in question has zero mention of sinfulness or righteousness and yet is used to rationalize eternal torment, but thank you for taking the time to address it.

    God bless,

    Larry

  13. Numbers 26:10…
    “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

    Korah and the men who rebelled with him against Moses were swallowed into Hell beneath.

    Psalm 9:17…
    “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

    Isaiah 5:14…

    “Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

    It wouldn’t make any sense if “hell” merely meant the grave. What point would there be in condemning the wicked to hell if that’s the same place where the righteous go? Clearly, Hell is a place only for the wicked who die in their sins. The righteous go to heaven to be with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:8).

    Matthew 5:28,29…

    “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

    The Bible plainly teaches that all sinners are condemned to Hell. If “hell” simply means grave, then what harm or worry is there in fornicating, getting drunk, raping, murdering, partying with illegal drugs and committing all sorts of other sins? There would be none. If there is NO place of punishment in eternity, then there is NO justice for all the victims of crimes committed in this earthly life. So then what advantage is there to being righteous? If one believes that the Bible is God’s Word, then you absolutely must believe that Hell is a literal place of torment and anguish, that burns with searing flames of fire and brimstone, where sinners are punished for their sins against a holy God.

  14. Hi Sheila,

    I’ve tried to address your doubt about God’s punishment of the wicked. I’m quite certain that it will be fitting to the crimes committed. I’m just not sure why the only fitting punishment is eternal torture. How about 1000 years of burning before you die – unable to get relief? I can’t say with confidence what it’s like to be thrown into eternal fire, but it will NOT be enviable.

    Thanks for your input, and God bless!

    Larry

  15. Hi Eric (and all others),

    Thanks for your response. Everyone’s participation is awesome and I appreciate the dedication to seek Truth.

    Clearly the outcome of God’s wrath is eternal separation from Him. I still fail to see how come that translates to eternal torture, especially with the consistent failure of Scripture to address the concept of eternal torture unless one or two mis-interpretations are applied to the concept.

    At any rate, whether the torment it temporal, eternal, or something else, I’m thankful for the shed blood of Jesus which covers my sins, and I know everyone here is, also. On that we can agree, praise God!!

    God bless,

    Larry

  16. I thinking eternal separation and being conscious of it, would be torture enough. I don’t necessarily think they are tormented forever and ever. Just being without the Light of Life seems to me to be their fate.

    Still horrifying to contemplate! Unimaginable darkness forever-makes me ill to think of it!

  17. Larry

    I got on here intending to answer your question that I saw this morning after I got off work.After reading the other posts I don’t think I will go any futher on this subject.I believe I have made it clear what I believe and why I believe It. I think I understand yours also.

    And yes,I am thankful for the shed blood of Jesus Christ,as you wrote.The important thing from this subject is we have hope and know if we serve the Lord we will have eternal life with our Lord.God bless you.

  18. Larry,

    You wrote:
    “I’m eagerly awaiting anyone to address my question above that may have gotten lost due to the length of my reply, to wit:

    If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?”

    Reading the scripture in chronological order would make a lot of difference in a lot of areas. I found out that my “Christian/New Testament” ignorance of what Paul called the Scriptures was striking. There are a lot of “catch phrases” in the NT that require a good understanding of the OT.

    Shalom

  19. christian,

    Concerning the names in Messiah’s story in Luke:

    The story does not make sense in respect to why people go to heaven and hell if we take it as a story about real people. Affluence and poverty are not the criteria in scripture for determining our eternal fate. They may or may not contribute to it but not all poor people end up in heaven…not all rich in hell. But covetous, stingy, evil eyed people do end up in hell. True servants of Elohim end up in the kingdom of heaven.

    Lazarus comes from a Hebrew name…Eleazar, which means servant of Elohim. So we have a rich man and a servant of Elohim in the story. The rich man lavished himself with what ever he wanted while the servant of Elohim suffered. Why did the servant of Elohim suffer? We are not told how he came to be in the position of being a beggar, but I suspect that he made righteous choices that prevented him from becoming rich in this world.

    If you look at the scriptural context of the story, you will find that covetousness is a major part of the message. The story is not about whether there really is an Abraham’s bosom or a real gulf between it and hell. Should we really get the idea that the story is literal to teach us about heaven and hell? Or is it symbolic to teach us a lesson about covetousness?

    Shalom

  20. Mr Bo,
    It is a story about Heaven and Hell. Covetousness and GREED are the reasons why a person goes to Hell. Which by reading the story is quite obvious to see and understand the actions of an unsaved person. Which the Savior Jesus was pointing out so clearly.

    Matthew 7:20
    So by their fruit you will know them.”

  21. Correction….Take out the word “Covetousness” in my above post. The rich man was not being covetousness, He was being greedy.

  22. The story of the rich man and servant of Elohim is directly preceded by these verses:

    Luke 16
    14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
    16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
    17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
    18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

    This is what is stated at the end of it:

    Luke 16
    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Not only is the story about covetousness it is about a very specific form of covetousness. Divorce and remarriage. The servant of Elohim may well have lost his wife to divorce, but refused to gratify his desires. The rich man may represent the modern church’s practice of sanctioning remarriage. It would seem that the modern “believer” is in the place of the rich man’s brothers. They refuse to hear Moses and are not persuaded by the words of the one that rose from the dead on the topic of remarriage or a host of other sins.

    This parable in Luke does not teach us about the length of punishment in hell. The names mentioned represent something to the original hearers that escapes our culture and folklore. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven.

    If you will notice, the kingdom of heaven/Elohim does not equal heaven. That our spirits return to YHWH at death is not what is referenced in the phrase kingdom of heaven/Elohim. Living in heaven is not our reward for faithfulness. Ruling and reigning with Messiah in the kingdom of heaven/Elohim is.

    Shalom

  23. Covetousness means to want something from someone else. To wish you had someone’s else possession. Covetousness is worse then jealously. Covetousness makes the Lord unhappy because the Lord wants us to be happy with what we have and not to envy what others have.

    To be greedy, means to not share with what you have. A greedy person is someone who does not share or give to others what you have.

    greedy-
    Excessively desirous of acquiring or possessing, especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves.
    2. Wanting to eat or drink more than one can reasonably consume; gluttonous.

    Covetousness-
    1. Excessively and culpably desirous of the possessions of another. See Synonyms at jealous.
    2. Marked by extreme desire to acquire or possess

  24. christian,

    Paul says that covetousness is idolatry.

    Colossians 3
    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    Isn’t the biblical definition of covetousness-desiring something that is not granted us. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was prohibited. Eve desired the prohibited. The tenth commandment says not to covet things that belong to another. So evidently we can covet things that do not belong to another. What is it called if we want something that does not belong to another, but still is denied us by YHWH.

    What about the remarriage issue? If she is divorced, in a sense she is not his anymore…but it is covetous for another to desire to take her to wife.

    I think that it is impossible to break any commandment without breaking number 1 and 10. This is why covetousness is idolatry. When we desire something that YHWH has denied us we put it in front of Him. When we have an idol we desire something ahead of YHWH.

    Greed is the love of money…Mammon. It is the root of all evil. James says:

    James 1
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    James 4
    1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
    2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
    3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
    4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
    5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

    Lust, covetousness and greed are all one. We can lust for money. We can be greedy for sex. We can covet either. Maybe it is semantics, but the parable in Luke deals with the covetous Pharisees with a story about greed. They must be closely related.

    If greed and covetousness are different, they certainly overlap quite a bit.

    Do you think that remarriage is adultery? Do you think that it is acting on covetousness?

    Shalom

  25. Hi Bo,

    You wrote:

    “Reading the scripture in chronological order would make a lot of difference in a lot of areas.”

    Amen to this, Amen!

    God bless,

    Larry

  26. Larry,

    I was very, very, very versed in the NT for about 20 years. I once read the NT in less than a week for the express purpose of knowing what it said about “once saved always saved.” Needless to say, I am not a Calvanist.

    About 10 years ago I began a very serious study of the OT…esp. the Torah. I spent about 6 of those years almost exclusively studying and teaching my family from the Torah and relating it to the NT. WOW! What an eye opener. There are so many things that went right over my head in the NT that were quotes and allusions to Torah and it’s teachings. The root of bitterness mentioned in Hebrews is one that comes to mind. Check out what it refers to in Deuteronomy 29:14-29.

    I do not want to be a profane spiritual fornicator that sells my birthright for a small taste of anything, physical or spiritual, that YHWH has forbidden. I am sure Adam and Eve would agree.

    Shalom

  27. Bo said:

    ” There are so many things that went right over my head in the NT that were quotes and allusions to Torah and it’s teachings. ”

    I’m constantly amazed at how many Christians are willing to completely ignore the Old Testament – as if its teachings were no longer relevant. When the apostles were telling the early church about the sufficiency and authority of Scripture, to what were they referring???

    God bless,

    Larry

  28. Bo,
    Why are you completely going off subject? The rich man did not commit covetousness. He did not desires another person’s possession. He was being greedy in the form of gluttonous. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a story of HEAVEN and HELL. The rich man wanted to warn his family about the place of Hell. But he was not allow to leave there. Living in sin will cause a future in Hell.
    Why is that so hard to understand?

    The results of living in sin will result in eternity in HELL.

    Like Paul said in Corinthians 5:53
    For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

    We will have a body prepared for Heaven or a body prepared for Hell for eternity. That means forever and ever.

    If people can not and will not except these facts then so be it. It is what it is. Except and move onwards.

    Praise the Lord for His word. Praise the Lord for Salvation.

  29. “The Bible clearly teaches punishment for the wicked. The EFFECT of the second death is eternal, but does the Bible really teach torment is eternal?”

    Hi Larry,

    You had posed this question to everyone, but I believe, as of today, that no one has answered it to your satisfaction; therefore I would like to present an answer to you based on the following of Bible logic. At the end of my presentation, we will find that the declaration of the eternal torment is actually a memorial commemorating those lost souls forever. A display of sorrow that’s quite similar to human customs.

    Since it deals with mankind, let’s begin in the book of Genesis.

    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

    Truism #1 – Man was formed out of a material that not only pre-existed, but can be seen with our naked eye – dust!

    In Hebrews 11:3, the Bible declared that God had formed some of the visible things in our universe out of things that we cannot see, but this is not the case in the creation of our first father and mother, Adam and Eve. After sin and after all those curses that were pronounced upon them, a more detailed description of what death would entail was given in Genesis 3:19…

    “…till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

    Truism #2 – Upon death, the human body begins decomposition and reverts back to the dust of the earth.

    Scientists have discovered that the total human body is really made out of water and a handful of very inexpensive chemical elements. What is inconceivable by man is made invaluable by God. Amazing! Remember the prophecy given about Jezebel in 2 Kings 9:10 that she would become dung in a field? Later, in verses 33-37, we read how she was thrown out of a window, then eaten by dogs as she laid dead on the ground. Afterwards, those same dogs went to a field and deposited their waste there.

    Truism #3 – The death of living things can get recycled back into nature in the form of nutrients for other living organisms and/or as a fuel source such as petroleum oil.

    The scriptures in question…

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

    From these verses, it has been revealed that the lake of fire does involve eternal torment for the unrighteous forever. But before we examine more closely the exact understanding of the word ‘torment’, let’s discover from the Bible the location of this lake of fire. In Matthew 22:44, it reveals that God the Father has declared unto His Son that He will turn His Son’s enemies, the wicked, into His footstool. In Acts 7:49, it says, “Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool…”

    Truism #4 – The earth is God’s footstool of which it has been prophesied that the enemies of Yeshua will become and be made a part of.

    There is no one right now within the lake of fire that is somewhere incorporated in this earth because the Bible has declared of the wicked in 2 Peter 2:9, “to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” When the second resurrection occurs, all the potential lost are risen back to life. I say potential because in Revelation 20:14-15 it seems as if there will be a second check in the Book of Life before the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire.

    In comparing Revelation 6:9-11, “under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:… that they should rest yet for a little season,” to Revelation 20:3, “after that he must be loosed a little season”, the Bible’s statement of ‘a little season’ could actually be a long time in terms of earth years. I examined those verses for I have been told that the wicked would be resurrected in the same wretched form as their original human bodies were when they died. I don’t believe this theory for those verses do make allowances that the wicked could live again for hundreds of years after the second resurrection. I believe that this second long life being granted to the wicked would be in line with the love of God, therefore I’m concluding that the wicked will be resurrected in perfect bodies that could endure a much longer life than their original natural life. Amen!

    In Revelation 14:15-22, it tells of the angel of God thrusting in his sickle in the ripen harvest of the wicked for them to be thrown “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” This action results in a great flowing of blood to the height of a horse’s bridle. In Psalm, it speaks of what the righteous will do with the blood of the wicked.

    The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Psalm 58:10

    This great flowing of the blood of the wicked will occur before they are thrown in the lake of fire. As we all know, in Genesis 9:4, it has declared that the life is in the blood, therefore we can safely assume that the wicked will already be dead before they are thrown in the lake of fire except for a chosen few…

    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,… These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

    Now this brings us back to the question, “How are the wicked, who will be dead when they are thrown into the lake of fire, to experience eternal torment?” Well, let’s grab Truism #2 together with another definition of the word ‘torment’ which can also mean ‘commotion’, ‘stir up’ and ‘disturb’. In other words, the resurrected bodies of the wicked reverted back to the basic elements that they were created from upon their death, and it is these elements that will experience and be in a constant state of movement/torment, hence they will be tormented forever without rest day and night.

    From science, we know that heat is a reflection of the energy state of an atom. For those ‘reverted back to the basic elements’ of the bodies of the wicked to be in a constant state of torment, they must be in a location of tremendous heat. From science, we also know that the earth contains very hot plasma like core. From this verse, the Bible states that there will be an opening made unto it…

    And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Revelation 9:2

    The fact that the basic essences that made up the living forms of the wicked will be entombed within the earth, taken out of the cycle of life, never to be used for any else again, to me, will serve as an eternal memorial unto them forever!

    Is that not what humans do to objects that they have placed great value upon?

  30. Hi Pamela,

    Thank you for your post. You’ve brought some intriguing points to the discussion that I will ponder!

    I can’t seem to communicate to many in this discussion what I consider to be thee most fundamental of logical flaws to the “eternal torture” belief.

    It boils down to this for me: “Are the people who are suffering for all of eternity in hell alive or dead”

    If they’re alive, then they do indeed have “eternal life” – it’s just a very lousy eternal life. This totally contradicts the clear Scriptural teaching that “eternal life” must be inherited by trusting in Jesus, and Genesis 3 when the Lord stationed angels around the tree of life to keep man from gaining eternal life.

    If they’re dead in hell, then they can’t be suffering torment.

    Am I missing something?

    God bless,

    Larry

  31. Larry,

    I think it’s biblically accurate to say everyone in hell is spiritually dead. Maybe that’s what you were missing?

  32. You can view his testimony better by going to YouTube and typing in his name. I think it’s a six part series.

  33. Actually, this title will give you the whole hour at once.

    FULL: 23 Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese -Reference Edition

Leave Your Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


*