The false belief that a person is born homosexual has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or confused person person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue.
Certainly the Orthodox Jew knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome. A person can change and heal if he deeply wants to.
Oops… I accidentally hit the submit button before I was finished quoting the cartoon Dr. Brown linked us to.
Give me a few minutes to construct the rest and comment.
Thanks
This is a close transcript from the cartoon for which Dr. Brown gave the link, starting at the 6:23 point until the 8:03 point:
From “A Conversation with a Gay, Orthodox Jew”
“Orthodox gay person: How come so many people are born this way and cannot change?
Orthodox straight person: Unfortunately the media is saturated with that false message. Political correctness and emotional manipulation have succeeded in convincing a lot of people. A real truth seeker will take a step back and ask themselves if they are being influenced by emotions or actual facts.
Orthodox gay person: Hmmm.
Orthodox straight person: It is difficult to face and deal with childhood gender wounding and to work through a painful past in therapy. On the other hand, the message from the media and homosexual activist is, “Accept yourself, act out your homosexual feelings, call yourself gay and we will embrace, support and celebrate you. You will become part of our community.” The false belief that a person is born homosexual has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or confused person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
Orthodox gay person: I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue, and how that might interfere with our objectivity.
Orthodox straight person: Certainly an Orthodox Jew knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome. A person can change and heal if he truly and deeply wants to. It is called free will. The torah asks us to do the right and healthy thing, even if it is the more difficult option.
Orthodox gay person: I could not deny that you make some very valid points. I really want to be a good torah observant Jew.”
I liked the video, but couldn’t help seeing a parallel problem that causes our slipping down the slope. I offer the following:
A Conversation with a Disobedient but well meaning Christian…
Well meaning Christian: How come so many people that are born again cannot keep the Torah?
Torah accepting Christian: Unfortunately the church is saturated with that false message. Religious correctness and emotional manipulation have succeeded in convincing a lot of people. A real truth lover will take a step back and ask themselves if they are being influenced by doctrines of men or actual facts from scripture.
Well meaning Christian: Hmmm.
Torah accepting Christian: It is difficult to face and deal with spiritual indoctrination and to work through a false religious past by looking into the scripture. On the other hand, the message from the church and Evangelical activist is, “Accept your inability to keep the Torah, act out your lawless feelings, call yourself Christian and we will embrace, support and celebrate you. You will become part of our community.” The false belief that a person is unable to keep the Torah and that grace has replaced the Torah has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or habitually sinning person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
Well meaning Christian: I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue, and how that might interfere with our objectivity.
Torah accepting Christian: Certainly a Truth lover knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome or call us to do something that is wrong. A person can change and heal if he truly and deeply wants to. It is called free will. The torah asks us to do the right and holy thing, even if it is the more difficult option.
Well meaning Christian: I could not deny that you make some very valid points. I really want to be a good, obedient Christian.
But Paul’s writings are continually twisted so that we end up ignoring YHWH’s instructions on righteousness and holiness.
Matthew 5 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Deuteronomy 30 10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
It is not too difficult if we allow YHWH to write His Torah upon our hearts. Without His law written on our hearts we will remain disobedient and keep sliding down the slippery slope.
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for the transcription and the other comments, but this is NOT the place for you to bring in your arguments. You’ve had hundreds if not thousands of posts to do this already, so please be content to post in those threads (although, in candor, the arguments have gone far beyond redundant at this point), OK?
Thanks in advance for complying, and may I ask others NOT to respond to Bo’s arguments here? (There are other threads, quite worn at this point, where these issues are more appropriate.)
Shalom Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown wrote a wonderful response to the local gay newspaper. I think he is also right on the slippery slope argument. Sometimes people hear words and do not understand meanings. A slippery slope argument is one by definition wherein we find we are further along the downward slip than intended. The extreme end of the slope is child rape and bestiality. Dr. Brown is right in that gay leaders have not condemned man-boy love as they ought. Despite our fallen state we still have a moral compass within us. Isn’t it interesting that even in our prisons pedophiles are considered moral trash by other prisoners. It is also true that many gays object to pedophilia, bestiality, polygamy and incest. But their objection most often takes the form of a defense of their lifestyle as similarly principled to mainstream beliefs. Gays seek to move the measuring line of morality to encompass their behavior, but really cannot come up with good Biblical arguments. In turn, they must turn to secular arguments. Here the discussion comes to an abrupt halt. No Christian is going to accept a secular argument to trump God”s Word. At the same time gays seem blind to the fact that the same reasoning employed by them to justify their behavior can be used by other groups advocating the removal of further taboos.
Every Christmas I get to see my cousin. Who is gay to the fullest extent. (I absolutely love him). Anyways, I bought my bible with me on Christmas Day, felt the leading of the Lord to do that. I opened up my bible and said, Steven read this out loud… He Read it with such enthusiasm.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, He then stopped. The next line was “nor homosexuals”. He would not say it. He got afraid. He said, I don’t want to read anymore.
All I can do is keep planting seeds. The Lord will do the rest.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Homosexuals do not want to give up their lifestyle. But yet some seem to go to church. Like the churches in Ohio. They hear the word, but then ignore it.
We need your help Lord. Help us help the Homosexuals see the way you see.
The notion of an emotional incentive would have some basis IF, indeed, homosexuals are born heterosexual and their sexuality is shaped by the intentions and expectations of those around them. I think it would be generous to call that a hypothesis, rather than a truth.
The notion that “emotional incentives” can shape sexuality does far more to support of the idea that many “struggling, confused,” gay people become functionally heterosexual due to the enormous emotional incentive to be straight. And by incentive, I mean active pressure to conform to the expectations of family, peers – to be a part of the community.
I’d be curious to know whether that Church of Christ that endorsed homosexuality was actually a United Church of Christ. The two are very different, and though I have no doubt that the Churches of Christ may one day face this challenge, I’m not sure that it’s accurate to say that any Church of Christ congregation anywhere endorses homosexuality.
The false belief that a person is born homosexual has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or confused person person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue.
Certainly the Orthodox Jew knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome. A person can change and heal if he deeply wants to.
Oops… I accidentally hit the submit button before I was finished quoting the cartoon Dr. Brown linked us to.
Give me a few minutes to construct the rest and comment.
Thanks
This is a close transcript from the cartoon for which Dr. Brown gave the link, starting at the 6:23 point until the 8:03 point:
From “A Conversation with a Gay, Orthodox Jew”
“Orthodox gay person:
How come so many people are born this way and cannot change?
Orthodox straight person:
Unfortunately the media is saturated with that false message. Political correctness and emotional manipulation have succeeded in convincing a lot of people. A real truth seeker will take a step back and ask themselves if they are being influenced by emotions or actual facts.
Orthodox gay person:
Hmmm.
Orthodox straight person:
It is difficult to face and deal with childhood gender wounding and to work through a painful past in therapy. On the other hand, the message from the media and homosexual activist is, “Accept yourself, act out your homosexual feelings, call yourself gay and we will embrace, support and celebrate you. You will become part of our community.” The false belief that a person is born homosexual has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or confused person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
Orthodox gay person:
I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue, and how that might interfere with our objectivity.
Orthodox straight person:
Certainly an Orthodox Jew knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome. A person can change and heal if he truly and deeply wants to. It is called free will. The torah asks us to do the right and healthy thing, even if it is the more difficult option.
Orthodox gay person:
I could not deny that you make some very valid points. I really want to be a good torah observant Jew.”
I liked the video, but couldn’t help seeing a parallel problem that causes our slipping down the slope. I offer the following:
A Conversation with a Disobedient but well meaning Christian…
Well meaning Christian:
How come so many people that are born again cannot keep the Torah?
Torah accepting Christian:
Unfortunately the church is saturated with that false message. Religious correctness and emotional manipulation have succeeded in convincing a lot of people. A real truth lover will take a step back and ask themselves if they are being influenced by doctrines of men or actual facts from scripture.
Well meaning Christian:
Hmmm.
Torah accepting Christian:
It is difficult to face and deal with spiritual indoctrination and to work through a false religious past by looking into the scripture. On the other hand, the message from the church and Evangelical activist is, “Accept your inability to keep the Torah, act out your lawless feelings, call yourself Christian and we will embrace, support and celebrate you. You will become part of our community.” The false belief that a person is unable to keep the Torah and that grace has replaced the Torah has a strong emotional incentive that comes along with it, especially for a sensitive, struggling or habitually sinning person. It is all based on emotions, not facts or truth.
Well meaning Christian:
I have never thought about examining the emotional incentive aspect of this issue, and how that might interfere with our objectivity.
Torah accepting Christian:
Certainly a Truth lover knows that we must not follow after our hearts and eyes when they lead us astray. The Torah does not prohibit something that is impossible to overcome or call us to do something that is wrong. A person can change and heal if he truly and deeply wants to. It is called free will. The torah asks us to do the right and holy thing, even if it is the more difficult option.
Well meaning Christian:
I could not deny that you make some very valid points. I really want to be a good, obedient Christian.
But Paul’s writings are continually twisted so that we end up ignoring YHWH’s instructions on righteousness and holiness.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Deuteronomy 30
10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
It is not too difficult if we allow YHWH to write His Torah upon our hearts. Without His law written on our hearts we will remain disobedient and keep sliding down the slippery slope.
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for the transcription and the other comments, but this is NOT the place for you to bring in your arguments. You’ve had hundreds if not thousands of posts to do this already, so please be content to post in those threads (although, in candor, the arguments have gone far beyond redundant at this point), OK?
Thanks in advance for complying, and may I ask others NOT to respond to Bo’s arguments here? (There are other threads, quite worn at this point, where these issues are more appropriate.)
Shalom Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown wrote a wonderful response to the local gay newspaper. I think he is also right on the slippery slope argument. Sometimes people hear words and do not understand meanings. A slippery slope argument is one by definition wherein we find we are further along the downward slip than intended. The extreme end of the slope is child rape and bestiality. Dr. Brown is right in that gay leaders have not condemned man-boy love as they ought. Despite our fallen state we still have a moral compass within us. Isn’t it interesting that even in our prisons pedophiles are considered moral trash by other prisoners.
It is also true that many gays object to pedophilia, bestiality, polygamy and incest. But their objection most often takes the form of a defense of their lifestyle as similarly principled to mainstream beliefs. Gays seek to move the measuring line of morality to encompass their behavior, but really cannot come up with good Biblical arguments. In turn, they must turn to secular arguments. Here the discussion comes to an abrupt halt. No Christian is going to accept a secular argument to trump God”s Word. At the same time gays seem blind to the fact that the same reasoning employed by them to justify their behavior can be used by other groups advocating the removal of further taboos.
Every Christmas I get to see my cousin. Who is gay to the fullest extent. (I absolutely love him). Anyways, I bought my bible with me on Christmas Day, felt the leading of the Lord to do that. I opened up my bible and said, Steven read this out loud… He Read it with such enthusiasm.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
He then stopped. The next line was “nor homosexuals”. He would not say it. He got afraid. He said, I don’t want to read anymore.
All I can do is keep planting seeds. The Lord will do the rest.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Homosexuals do not want to give up their lifestyle. But yet some seem to go to church. Like the churches in Ohio. They hear the word, but then ignore it.
We need your help Lord. Help us help the Homosexuals see the way you see.
The notion of an emotional incentive would have some basis IF, indeed, homosexuals are born heterosexual and their sexuality is shaped by the intentions and expectations of those around them. I think it would be generous to call that a hypothesis, rather than a truth.
The notion that “emotional incentives” can shape sexuality does far more to support of the idea that many “struggling, confused,” gay people become functionally heterosexual due to the enormous emotional incentive to be straight. And by incentive, I mean active pressure to conform to the expectations of family, peers – to be a part of the community.
I’d be curious to know whether that Church of Christ that endorsed homosexuality was actually a United Church of Christ. The two are very different, and though I have no doubt that the Churches of Christ may one day face this challenge, I’m not sure that it’s accurate to say that any Church of Christ congregation anywhere endorses homosexuality.