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A little gratitude goes a long (not lone) way. 🙂
Bo,
I love how much you love the Lord!
That said, again, the NT Scriptures clearly prohibit binding others in the way you are attempting to do just as explicitly as the OT Scriptures prohibit bacon-eating. By acting as you are, you are a law-breaker of the instructions given in the NT to all believers.
It is a fine and beautiful thing, you loving the Lord with your remembrance of His Old Covenant “appointments” – but don’t be a law-breaker by insisting that we honor the Lord your way.
Anyone ever notice how when Peter preached to the household of Cornelius and they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit they were Baptized, not circumcised?
Food for thought.
Tom,
Do not worry Tom, I wouldn’t think of being a law breaker.
Do you think that the days of the week have been confused?
Shalom
Tom,
I did notice that about Cornelius.
Did you ever notice how the NT always keeps track of time by Sabbaths and OT feast days? Did you ever notice that Paul kept the Sabbath and had Timothy circumcised?
Shalom
Tom,
You wrote:
“Anyone ever notice how when Peter preached to the household of Cornelius and they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit they were Baptized, not circumcised?”
Did anyone ever notice that Cornelius was not 8 days old?
Did anyone ever notice that Paul was against getting circumcised as a form of justification by works, but had Timothy circumcised anyway?
Did anyone ever notice that those that walk in the Spirit fulfill righteous acts of the law?
Shalom
Bo,
I do not slap the Lord in the face by not celebrating the Jewish Holidays.
Jesus loves me. His love is unconditional. I do not have to work for His love.
I am a wretched that is saved by the blood of Christ.
Praise you Lord!
Debbie Fraser,
They are not Jewish Holidays. YHWH calls them His feasts (Appointments/Holy Days)>
He loves you this is true. The issue is will we love Him back the way He asks us to.
If you love Him keep His commandments.
Shalom
Bo,
That’s the problem, because I am right about you being a law breaker by disobeying Paul’s admonissions against binding others. You just refuse to think about it, but that doesn’t mean you are justified in it.
I think I see the ultimate issue, Bo. You seem to be in refusal re: acknowledging your own sin and depravity. I don’t perceive that you realize how fallen you are before God.
It’s immaterial to me – I was just interested in learning more about the science of it.
Tom,
Did you read this yet?
http://www.thercg.org/books/tshtbl.html
Do you think that the true days of the week have somehow been lost?
Shalom
Jabez,
Did you read that link? Do you understand that the days of the week have been kept track of throughout time?
Shalom
Bo,
Did you ever notice that all of the NT authors are Jewish men (with the possible exception of Luke) to whom this would have been the normative practice but makes no case whatsoever for it being required?
Did you ever notice that Paul did not renounce his Jewish heritage but rather charished it, and therefore that this also makes no case for it being required?
Did you ever notice that this was only because Timothy was ethnically Jewish on his mother’s side? Did you ever notice that Paul would not have Titus circumcised?
Tom,
You sure got excited when you first read Jabez’s post. Something on the inside of you wants to be reaffirmed in your Sabbath breaking…don’t you think. Why not just admit that the days of the week are intact? If it is immaterial, why were you so excited and why will you not admit that the days of the week are intact?
Shalom
Bo,
Did anyone ever notice that Abraham wasn’t either? Nor were the gentile converts to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament who also had to be circumcised?
Did anyone ever notice that this was because Timothy was ethnically Jewish on his mother’s side? Did anyone ever notice that Paul would not have Titus circumcised?
“I do not have to work for His love.” – Debbie Fraser
You do have to work because of your love of Him though.
Tom,
Did you ever notice that the churches they wrote to were gentile? Did it occur to you that they probably kept a different calendar before conversion? Surely Paul knew their pagan calendar and could have talked to them in their vernacular if he had wanted to. But He expected them to know YHWH’s appointed times and even reminds the Corinthians to keep the feast of unleavened bread.
Did you ever notice that circumcision after salvation is not wrong, but circumcision to get saved is? Did you realize that baptism to get saved is wrong, but baptism after salvation isn’t?
Shalom
Tom,
The gentile converts in the OT did not have to get circumcised.
Shalom
Tom,
I cannot notice you keeping the righteousness of the law since you are not doing it. You are not doing the things that the law says is righteousness.
Shalom
Juan G.,
Good point.
Shalom
Tom,
Isaiah 56
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Kind of hard for a eunuch to get circumcised. No mention of circumcision here for gentiles either.
Shalom
Tom,
I am glad that you have a short name…it makes it easier to respond to your posts. 🙂
Tom,
Did you ever notice that your name is not on the “recent comments” column now? 🙂
I do not have a peace with you people.
Amen, Debbie, Amen.
We are saved, not by our works, but by His mercy, Amen.
RE: Shabbat services, which you mentioned earlier. Frankly, the Shabbat Services I have attended remind me more of the Pharisees than our Lord. The services contained many traditional Rabbinical proscriptions and rituals which I felt strangled the simplicity of Jesus’ teachings, and I haven’t gone back. I have noticed that many of the Jewish Roots persuasion still don’t understand that Rabbinic teachings are extra-biblical and in many cases, violate not only the spirit but the letter of God’s original laws. Alas, it’s hard for some to let go of traditions. I mentioned the early Christian Church (Catholic) because at the Council of Laodicea, they succeeded in outlawing the seventh-day Sabbath which God decreed. This is just as much Pharisaical in its practice as any to be found in Judaism. It is placing a tradition of men before a genuine decree of the Lord. Note it wasn’t flexible: Sabbath was outlawed. Traditions like these did not serve to minister to the lost sheep of Israel. They only served to further alienate Jews – can you imagine the societal punishment which went along with this? How could they be expected to pay attention to the Church, when it went so far as to outlaw the Sabbath?
I like to keep the Sabbath Day by resting, drawing deeper and closer to Him, keeping it simple. I take care of my Dad daily, and I know I am not in any way breaking it for cleaning up, which is work, after him, if, in his frailty, he should spill something. The spirit of keeping the Sabbath is in delighting in the Lord. Physical rest, and rest from the world with all its numberless distractions. I feel the Lord blesses this. As we read, when we draw nearer to Him, He draws nearer to us, and it is a sweet respite from the other six days.
Blessings!
Re: #39, 49 and #62. No, Bo, after a careful and complete reading of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar I do not conclude that your number 62 holds as reliable.
Here is why, over time, looking backward, knowing how sketchy history is in Genesis prior to Abraham’s choice, etc.–including relatively recently known calendar change history in recorded history–the eventual solar year calendar shift from a strictly lunar calendar regarding people of reference to the Book, as #39 carefully points out (looking backward, not forward), and including the great flood as a disorienting reality, the division of the continents, etc., the greyness and wetness of atmosphere also during the great flood: precision to orient days and nights within human experience becomes unreliable. We have wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, which include skies filled with ash and smoke for years disorienting of clearity of sun and moon, forced migrations, starvations, dispersions, upheavals, powers of government changing laws, days, and references of civilization–on and on–what remains is simply not a guarantee of reliablity as you have described it to be. This especially holds as to looking into the matter described in detail in the article, which breaks down the relativity of calendar matters over time, relative to the Holy Land, as summarized by the quote posted in #39. Where you simply have not accounted for the differences between a lunar calendar measure of its day and a solar calendar’s measure of its day, as is relatively established over thousands of years (as mentioned as summarized as to century accumulation periods).
What is clear from the article of 28 pages I posted is how the Hebrew calendar came to be, and its eventual solidifcation around the actual agricultural and seasonal rhythms of Canaan/Israel/Judah, and eventual inclusions of solar and lunar realities, not first in its formula. This is fascinating information in itself. The point being, even in the scientific article–as with the debate in the body on the short day long day creation theories–we simply will not know definitively as to weeks and days counting reliability until we can ask our Lord himself on these matters. It is the Lord we must trust, not past calendar basis determination measures of months, days, and weeks, where so.
Atomic clocks and their capabilites for exactness have not been the norm until recent years. As the article patiently exhibits, over hundreds of years periods, as set in millenia, shifts in individual civilizations calendar and resulting weeks orientations have occurred. This is clearly established. The History of the calendar establishments in the Land of the Book are relative to the Land of the Book, as established, as such, over time, then to external forces changing these measures, over time. There is simply enough information in the article I cited to understand that all change, God’s promises, and a changeless heart of God are what we can count on. Otherwise humans also would be able to keep the law of Moses perfectly, and the Decalogue perfectly, which has never been the case. I introduced just some of the many complications as to charting a seventh day throughout all of human history since creation’s rest, there remain almost a hundred more identified over time in reference to the Biblical ideal of achieving a listeral seventh day observance. I am sure God in in his wisdom and humor knew all this in advance, and knew of the futility of the best of human intentions. No man is righteous, no, not one.
What I introduced as a consideration to this forum was for a purpose, and considering how the topic of observance was then discussed, what have we all shared as learned here, and of the provisions, honoring, and redemption of our Lord? What is needful at the very least is to hear and heed Jesus.
Blessings to you to Ruth. 🙂
P.S.
And of course, the idea was never to merely seek Him “only on one day.”
If we keep the Sabbath Day in spirit and truth, this IN NO WAY implies that the rest of the week we’re not to be led, guided, nourished or helped by Him.
Do we not need Him hourly? Is there a moment in which we do NOT need our Father’s love and guidance?
Jabez,
You are still missing the point. There is a continuous 7 day cycle that has been kept track of throughout human history. There is no doubt that it has been kept track of back to the days of Messiah. There is no doubt that Messiah recognized that the day that the Jewish people were keeping was in fact Sabbath.
There is no doubt that the calendar changes from Messiah till now have kept the 7 day cycle intact.
There is also no doubt, unless you doubt the scripture, that the days were kept track of during the Flood. The narrative plainly states the number of days.
There is no doubt that YHWH knew when Sabbath was during the exodus. There is not doubt that the priesthood knew when to offer the Sabbath offering.
There is no doubt the scriptural day is from dusk to dusk, no matter how long the light portion of that day was.
There is no doubt that you do not wish to admit that you are in error on this.
Here is a quote from:
The Sabbath
Has Time Been Lost?
BY DAVID C. PACK
“Most are familiar with the famous Roman emperor, Julius Caesar. He devised the first Roman calendar—called the “Julian calendar.” Our month of July still carries the stamp of his name. His calendar dated from 45 B.C. and continued to A.D. 1582—spanning over 16 centuries. A Greek astronomer named Sosigenes calculated the calendar in 46 B.C., which Caesar adopted.
The first change to the calendar occurred in 1582 and was decreed by Pope Gregory XIII (1572-1585). From this point, the calendar has been known as the “Gregorian calendar.” One hundred and seventy years later, in 1752, another change was made. Both involved dropping days from the calendar to correct for previous errors in construction and computation. What had caused the problem?
Over the centuries, astronomers had come to greater precision in understanding how to compute and devise a more exact (solar) calendar. The Julian calendar lacked this precision. It was based on the belief that a solar year was exactly 365 1/4 days long. Hence, the calendar added one extra day every four years to the month of February. Astronomers learned in time that the solar year was actually 12 minutes and 14 seconds shorter than previously believed. This caused the spring equinox to fall backwards on the calendar until it eventually fell on March 11th instead of March 21st. This required that ten days be dropped from the calendar.
Bear in mind that days were dropped from the month—in October 1582—and not from the week! The following diagram shows how this was done:
The first week of October went from Thursday, October 4th, to Friday, October 15th. The two Sabbaths on either side of this change were still seven days apart. The Sabbath remained unaffected. The weekly cycle was not broken. Because it was the Catholics who made the change, it is they who possess the best historical record of how they did this. The official change took place in Italy, Spain and Portugal.
Apparently, there was much debate about how and when to make the change. Notice the following two quotes: “Thus, every imaginable proposition was made, only one idea was never mentioned, viz., the abandonment of the seven-day week” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, p. 251, article “Lilius”). (It was Lilius who actually proposed the change that was finally accepted.)
Also, “It is to be noted that in the Christian period, the order of days in the week has never been interrupted. Thus, when Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, Thursday, 4 October was followed by Friday, 15 October. So in England, in 1752, Wednesday, 2 September, was followed by Thursday, 14 September” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 740, article “Chronology”).
As stated, two changes occurred to the calendar that were really one change occurring in two stages. This bears explanation. When Pope Gregory decreed the change, the British would not comply. They retained the old Julian calendar until 1752—thus remaining ten days behind the newly established Gregorian calendar! Obviously, Sabbath-keeping remained undisturbed in British areas for these 170 years.
The British finally determined to make the change. With the passing of 170 years came an additional “drift” in the calendar of one more day. Now it became necessary to drop eleven days to catch up with the spring equinox, instead of the previous ten! The change was effected in September of 1752. Instead of dropping ten days, between a Thursday and Friday as in 1582, the British chose to drop eleven days between a Wednesday and Thursday. The previous diagram explains what happened. Once again, Sabbath-keeping continued undisturbed during the seven-day period spanning the change:
Actually, there was even a third stage to the calendar changes described above. The Russians refused to make the change until 1907! Their calendar had now fallen thirteen days behind everyone else’s. It was not until 1907 that they synchronized with the rest of the world by dropping thirteen days from their calendar. Before and after this change, Sabbath-keepers in Russia observed the same day that Sabbath-keepers everywhere else in the world observed. Certainly the same practice applied to all Sunday-keepers.
No one can dispute these basic facts of recent history!”
So from the time of Messiah, who knew when Sabbath was and kept it, until today we have no reason to doubt the 7 day cycle has been maintained. To argue that we cannot know, is to close ones eyes to the facts.
Shalom
Bo, The Wikipedia has not erred in its exacting research, we disagree, and you have missed “the point” altogether. It is the point of the Father three times speaking over Jesus in the Gospels, affirming Him. This is not about a day, days, or this or that day. It is not about diet, exercise, or this or that tittle. Nothing we can do grants us righteousness. All our best efforts need be oriented to Jesus: and His Way, Truth, and Life, it is Luke 16:16 revisited over and over and over throughout the redemptive History since Messiah has come. That Luke 16:17 was completed in Him, not by what we do is the point.
I spoke to man I worked with about the Lord one day,he said he could not accept the Lord in his life right now because of the shift he worked required that he work two sundays a month.He could not keep the sabbath.
He went on to tell me of another man he worked with that was a follower of Jesus who felt defeated most of the time because his job required him to work some sundays.
I explained to him why I didn’t believe it was a requirement of the Lords any longer and that he could keep the sabbath on another day.I explained that friday evening thru saturday evening was the actual sabbath.He felt sunday was the sabbath day and he should keep it.
I thought, what a shame it was that he was not willing to accept the Lord because of a day that was not the actual sabbath day anyway.
The reasons and the scriptures for what I believe have been said in some of the posts above,but I will say that I believe that we need to be very careful and very sure of what we say to people about what we believe about Gods word.It could affect thier salvation one way or another.
Bo,
I get excited whenever a new piece of evidence arises to show your position to be a perversion of the Gospel of my Lord.
Here’s what I think: I think you are so desperate to find fault in others and tweeze out the specks in our eyes that you have not realized that a beam has pierced your own.
You are bleeding, Bo. I pray in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior that you realize it before it claims your life.
Could you expound? I don’t understand what you mean…
Hear hear!
“Could you expound? I don’t understand what you mean…” – Dave L.
I don’t understand how that could be, but here:
If you love God, then you will do His work – you will work to please Him as good as you know how and beyond. (Beyond meaning you will seek God’s ways even if you are aware of some already, etc).
Just because God loves doesn’t mean His creation should sit there like a sponge, absorbing everything we can get. Jesus commanded us to love God. I believe we should do as much as we can to please God…keep pushing the limits of our dedication.
Tom,
Thanks for your concern.
Would you consider adultery a spec? What about idolatry? Same set of 10 with the Sabbath.
I would think that your rejoicing is unfounded in this instance. That is pretty obvious.
1 Corinthians 13
6 finds no joy in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth;
You might rather rejoice in the truth instead of unrighteousness. But you would rather get excited about possibly showing me wrong so that you and others can continue in unrighteousness. But real love rejoices in the truth. The truth is that the day has not changed and neither has YHWH’s law. But you would rather rejoice in the lie that it is alright to sin that grace might abound.
Sad, isn’t it?
And no, I am not desperate to find fault in others. I am very concerned that the lie of lawlessness is causing real love for YHWH to grow cold. It is sad that science can be misused to set aside the commandments of YHWH. The doctrines of men, whether scientific or religious, are being misused on this site to comfort people in their sin.
So I attempt to do what this passage says.
2 Corinthians 10
5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
Is He really your lord? Are you sure that you won’t be one of the ones that says “Lord, lord” and He disallows you into the kingdom? Not doing the will of the Father is lawlessness. The Sabbath is right there in the very middle of the foundational statements of the Father’s will.
Matthew 7
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.
“Will of My Father” “Depart from me” “lawbreakers” “hears these words of Mine and acts on them”
Matthew 24
11 Many false prophets will rise up and lead multitudes astray;
12 and because of the prevalent disregard of God’s law the love of the great majority will grow cold;
13 but those who stand firm to the End shall be saved.
“false prophets” “multitudes astray” “disregard for God’s law” “love” “grow cold” “firm to the end shall be saved”
I am sure that you have some twist to these that helps you ignore what they say, but maybe someone reading this will actually look at what is being said in these passages and come to their senses. Who knows maybe you will finally understand them for what they actually say. I sincerely hope so.
Shalom
Juan G.,
Good stuff again!
Shalom
“The Wikipedia has not erred in its exacting research” – Jabez H.
Do you have any specific knowledge? When was a monday followed directly by a wednesday – or when did any such similiar disruption occur? It seems you are just throwing out as many disruptive ideas as you can, true or not, to make what seems plain and true unclear.
I agree with Bo that disrupting the sequence of days would be very difficult with so many people involved.
“you have not realized that a beam has…” – Tom
That was a strange, grotesque interpretation.
“I get excited whenever a new piece of evidence arises to show your position to be a perversion of the Gospel of my Lord.” – Tom
I don’t understand why you hate his view so much. I am likely far from “lawful” in the non-moral ways (rituals, schedules, etc), but I have real trouble getting on board with your disgust of Bo.
Juan g.,
Thanks, but do not take up an offense on my account. I have been described as having the tact of heat seeking missile. 🙂 I bring it on myself sometimes.
Shalom
We are not saved by keeping the Sabbath. We are saved by the mercy of God, evidenced in the blood of the Lamb, who was slain for the sins of the whole world.
But keeping God’s commandments is still good. We are not saved by our good works, but what? Shall we not do any more good works, then? Of course not.
Keeping God’s Ten Commandments (NOT the traditions of the elders, i.e., Pharisees) is wise.
It’s important to put Him first. He alone is God.
It’s important not to worship the crafts we make, or have other objects which we venerate.
It’s important to know His Name, but treat it with honor, because it is sacred.
It’s important to honor our father and mother. And sometimes that can be hard, if a parent was abusive. Still, forgiveness and mercy have been modeled to us, and so it behooves us to give them the same forgiveness as we have been given.
It’s important not to murder. Life is sacred.
It’s important to keep marriage sacred, and not commit adultery, even in our thoughts.
We can’t have justice if people bear false witness. It’s important to speak the truth, even to power, and even if one is not a part of the majority.
It’s important to refrain from covetousness (though Madison Avenue would like us to keep desiring what “The Joneses” have). It’s important to seek first the Kingdom and all things will be added to us.
And, it is wonderful to remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.
God’s Ten Commandments. They protect, they are wise and sensible, and they are worthy to be extolled. They were authored by God, given to man, and our Lord Messiah kept each one. With the words of his mouth, he scoured away the misunderstandings and broke the yoke of false teachings; in short, He both fulfilled and clarified God’s true, original commandments. He clarified them so that we could keep them to good effect.
Nonetheless, only His mercy can save us. That is Grace. But His grace is NOT a license to sin.
Hallelujah, worthy is the Lamb. Someday we hope to live with Him forevermore.
We have seen the bad effects of disregarding the Ten Commandments. They are playing out in our society today. The fruits of lawlessless are all around us.
His law is easy; His burden is light.
May the blessings of God rest upon you.
“Good stuff again!” – Bo
I haven’t found any agreement telling Christians they should pursue perfection for years. Good to finally see someone else agree! Right as I was about to give up too.
I’d keep schedules and rituals, I guess it’s just tough, thinking of doing it alone from ignorance. I would certainly benefit from some order in my life, as I have no pattern or identifiable schedule (not even in sleep). And I would benefit from social gatherings as I have few or none of those either nowadays. I can certainly see how those laws could benefit me. No doubt God would be pleased to see me untangled, no doubt I could be a more effective servant in the end.
Bo,
I don’t consider adultery a spec – it’s a redwood tree. But when Jesus came He taught that adultery is not just sleeping with someone who is not your wife – it is adultery to even look at a woman with lust in your eye. I have redwoods piercing my eye daily because I am a sinner who cannot live up to the Lord’s standard.
I don’t consider idolatry a spec – it’s a mountain of redwoods. But when Jesus came He taught idolatry is not just bowing down to man-made idols – it is idolatry to allow money (or anything else that draws at the sinful heart of man) to have an interest in your life above God. I have mountains of redwoods lining up at my door because I am a sinner who cannot live up to the Lord’s standard.
And I don’t consider Sabbath-breaking a speck – it’s a continent of redwoods. But when Jesus came He taught that it is Sabbath breaking to seek rest in any source of comfort other than Him, the Lord of the Sabbath. I mourn and weep in dust and ashes, because every waking moment I am turning to creature comforts, relationships, and addictions of my sinful heart for rest, and away from Him.
You see, Bo, here are the differences between you and I:
You:
Keep the letter of the Law and believe you are righteous.
I:
See that I am woefully incapable of keeping the spirit of the Law and mourn my fallenness.
You:
Cloth yourself with the fig leaf of the Law and stand in front of God on your own two feet, head high.
I:
Realize that I am naked and shamed before the Almighty – who has graciously descended from on high to cloth me at the cost of the life of One Innocent Lamb – head bowed with guilt.
You:
Seek a righteousness from the Law, apart from Christ.
I:
Pray for you daily to see yourself as you truly are: a sinner saved by Grace.
PEACE to you, Bo,
Tom
Juan G.,
It is surely an adventure. There are probably some people near you that are keeping YHWH’s appointments. There are web sites that have fellowship finder links. I know of one that might help you out.
Search fellowship finder and look for Eliyah’s home page. Give it a shot, it might be a blessing.
Shalom
Dave,
“I do not have to work for His love.” – Debbie Fraser
You do have to work because of your love of Him though.
Please explain
Check out James 2:20, “…that faith without works is dead.
If you love the Lord the fruits of the Lord should pour out of you.
The gifts He has given us needs to be use.
Because we have the of Spirit of God living in us, people should be seeing the Lord in us, not us.
One of my favorite scriptures is this…
Galatians 3:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Ruth…
Very good post!!!
Tom,
Be careful of false humility in your statements above.
You are wrong. I do not see myself as righteous. I see myself as a sinner that has been saved by grace…now working out, not working for, my salvation. I am one trying to express my gratefulness in the way scripture says to do so, instead of in some nebulous, emotional, and sentimental way. I am hopefully, because of the hope of seeing Him as He is, purifying myself as He is pure, instead of childishly letting Him do all the work.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
A childlike faith accepts the dictates and wisdom of the Father.
A childish faith rejects the concept of actually getting in the yoke with Y’Shua. It thinks that salvation from sin is all there is, never realizing that sin is transgression of the rules/law of YHWH. It blissfully goes about sinning in the same way it did before being saved, blinded to the fact that things like Sabbath breaking is a sin. It repents of things it feels to be sin and never repents form things that are stated to be sin…unless they feel it also.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
It does not yet appear what we shall be…we see through a glass darkly. Then we will see face to face…then we will know as we are known. Let’s grow up and get to work doing what the scriptures actually say, instead of making up “spiritual versions” of obedience that make the actual commandment of YHWH of no effect.
Apply your logic, or rather Y’Shua’s, to Sabbath keeping in the same way you do the others. If you did, you would not only rest in Messiah…you would keep YHWH’s Sabbath. You should continue to do the one and not leave the other undone.
Look at the ridiculousness of this:
Letter=no adultery…Spirit=no looking with lust.
Letter=no idols…Spirit=no materialistic attachments.
Letter=no killing…Spirit=no anger without cause.
BUT and it is a big one:
Letter=remember Sabbath…Spirit=do not worry about the day YHWH says to keep holy because it is all about spiritual rest.
Absurdity to the max!
It should go:
Letter=remember Sabbath…arrange schedule, finish projects, lay aside worldly cares, etc. so as to really keep the Sabbath day holy…in heart and body.
Shalom
Juan,
You don’t understand how someone couldn’t fully grasp what you are saying in a one line statement you posted?
This forum is in the context of the necessity of keeping the law, sabbaths, etc…so for you to say “you have to work because you love Him” made me wonder what you meant in context of the thread. I wasn’t sure if you were just making a general point or making a case for your viewpoint on this thread and I don’t know what your view is which is why I asked you to expound. I should have probably explained my question better.
Bo,
You may not see yourself as self righteous but you sure act like you are.
Debbie,
Great post, #194! I agree…it was very well explained.
My question was mainly because I didn’t know what specifically Juan meant by the statement in regards to talking about having to keep the sabbath, law, etc.
Debbie Fraser,
You have not seen my actions. You have seen a discussion about what is the proper method of dealing with the scriptures about Sabbath keeping and obedience to YHWH. I have not once said that I am earning my righteousness. I have not once believed so. I have always maintained that it is, and has always been, impossible to work for righteousness.
Y’Shua died because we broke YHWH’s perfect law. This is what made us sinners in need of a savior. How can it possibly be OK to continue to sin (break YHWH’s law) just because we have been forgiven for our past offenses. Paul boldly tells us not to continue to break the law now that we are under grace.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
I do know for sure that those that claim righteousness through Messiah’s atoning blood and continue to break the very law that that they were breaking before, are deceived into thinking that they are acting righteously when the fruit of their actions prove otherwise according to the scripture. I know that there is a learning curve in this. We are all learning what different things in the scripture mean and, hopefully attempting to apply them. Once we know to do good and do it not though, it is sin to us.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
The Sabbath is part of YHWH’s instructions to us. If we know this, we sin when we do not keep it.
If the law of YHWH is written on our hearts, we love it. When we love it, we do it. If we do not do it, we do not love it. If we do not love it, it has not been written on our hearts. If it has not been written on our hearts, we not allowing the new covenant to do what it is supposed to do. The law of YHWH will not change until heaven and earth pass away.
Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
We can leave YHWH’s law written on stone and walk away thinking we are not breaking it, of we can let YHWH write it on our hearts and begin to keep it. Once we read it or hear it and walk away unchanged, we have deceived ourselves.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If we do not start obeying after we have read/heard the law we are deceived into thinking we are doing just fine, when we are not. We are in rebellion at some point in this saga.
Shalom
Juan, on #88, you have to read the article to understand what has happened over time. It is complicated, it simply cannot be answered by the simplicity of your approach. Now the Gospel, that is pretty simple and straighforward, we can look to it for smooth sailing, provided we do the will of the Father. Jesus said to his disciples, “follow me”.