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Is there a New Testament command or instruction against talking to the spirits of the dead?
Acts 16:16 has an example of fortune telling, but not this sort of thing.
I just wonder, if we are not supposed to keep the Torah, why this sort of thing can be condemned.
It certainly is not in the 4 necessary things that were to be expected of the gentile converts.
I wonder if Paul would appeal to the Torah to give us the proper teaching in this kind of situation. He said the Torah was good for doctrine.
Just wondering.
Shalom
For Illustration purposes, let’s suppose that one takes the position that the “Sabbath” day is no longer in force, as Christians will often explain, yet they still believe that all Scripture is inspired by Yahuah. Taking the total number of times the word “Sabbath” is used in ALL of Scripture, we find 170 occurrences. Next, we assess the total amount of all Scripture, and find that the Brith Chadasha (Renewed Covenant “Messianic” writings, or “N.T.”) is about one-sixth of the whole.
Then we consider an analogy where all Scripture represents 5 large pancakes, and the occurances of the word “Sabbath” within the text are represented by 170 blueberries (Remember, the word “Sabbath” is used 170 times in all of Scripture).
You put 109 blueberries (65% of them) into the first 4 pancakes. (These first four pancakes are analogous to the “Old Testament”, or the TaNaKh).
You put 61 blueberries (35% of them) into the last single pancake. (This last pancake is going to be VERY rich with blueberries, in fact it is mathematically much more dense with blueberries than the first 4 pancakes (on average, the other 4 only have 21.8 blueberries each!).
He is preaching the Gospel, he is not preaching Moses, he is preaching Christ crucified and risen for us, to redeem us from the curse inherent in the law of Moses.
14. preach the gospel
16. I preach the gospel
16. if I preach not the gospel!
18. when I preach the gospel,
18. the gospel of Christ
18. power in the gospel
23. this I do for the gospel’s sake.
I’ve not heard anyone at all say that we use our liberty to continue to sin. That’s absurd and it is not the position of anyone posting here. We all are familiar with the verses that speak to the contrary. There is no need to list them, we can read plainly that we are to repent from our sins and turn from them to serve the Living God.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, (which we all still do, not DELIBERATELY, but that we are still clothed with the same flesh, born under a curse) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2Cr 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you?
2Cr 3:2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men;
2Cr 3:3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2Cr 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.
2Cr 3:5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God,
2Cr 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Cr 3:7 Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses’ face because of its brightness, fading as this was,
2Cr 3:8 will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor?
2Cr 3:9 For if there was splendor in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendor.
2Cr 3:10 Indeed, in this case, what once had splendor has come to have no splendor at all, because of the splendor that surpasses it.
2Cr 3:11 For if what faded away came with splendor, what is permanent must have much more splendor.
2Cr 3:12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,
2Cr 3:13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor.
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Cr 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
2Cr 3:16 but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Cr 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Lately, it seems every blog entry you make eventually manifests this same discussion. For the sake of others, we should move it to the other heading.
Here is what the perfect law of liberty (Torah) says about communicating with the dead:
Deuteronomy 18
9 “When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable customs of those nations.
10 No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery,
11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead.
12 Everyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and the LORD your God is driving out the nations before you because of these detestable things.
13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
14 Though these nations you are about to drive out listen to fortune–tellers and diviners, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do this.
15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
16 This is what you requested from the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let us not continue to hear the voice of the LORD our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die!’
17 Then the LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.
Do not listen to the dead…listen to the Messiah that rose from the dead! We are accountable for whatever He says.
He said this:
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Listen to the one that said that the law would not pass away. This way we have a sure word from YHWH that communicating with the dead is wrong.
Shalom
Sheila,
Do you remember the Sabbath to keep it holy as YHWH specified? If not, why is this not sinning on purpose? So, do you use your liberty to profane the Sabbath?
Yes, Paul preached the gospel. The the first word of the gospel is to repent. How can breaking #4 not be a sin? Why are we permitted to break it but not the others? Here is what James said:
James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Guess what…if you break #4 you are guilty of all. You are a transgressor of the law. Consistency is very important.
How will you answer the communicating with the dead issue without YHWH’s perfect law?
Shalom
Sheila,
You wrote,
“Lately, it seems every blog entry you make eventually manifests this same discussion.”
Psalms 11
3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
Shalom
Proverbs 29
18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.(KJV)
Proverbs 29
18 Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he who keeps the law.(ESV)
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
2Cr 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Cr 3:7 Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses’ face because of its brightness, fading as this was,
2Cr 3:8 will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor?
2Cr 3:13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor.
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Cr 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
The new covenant puts the same words on our heart instead of on stone. And what of those that make claim of the new covenant, but the same veil remains when they read the Torah? It is because of a hard heart that the YHWH’s law is not written there. The veil remains over the minds of those that have forgotten YHWH’s law. If we are really in Messiah we ought to be able to see and accept YHWH’s instructions. It is not the law that is taken away…it is the veil.
Shalom
For the literalist, he must consider as to external conformity to an originally from creation work rest seventh day literal possibility of observance: the Biblical Calendar reflectig this with fidelity differs from the present worldwide calendar, with differing number of days to the year, and a different leap year structure altogether. Following the Genesis Sabbath day establishment is presently not even achieved by the Jews of Israel. To a slightly more exacting degree Biblical festivals, holidays, and feasts are. But what is the point of such an exacting impossibility as unachievable too with the New increasingly replacing the old (Heb 7-10)?
As Paul stated to those of the Nations, prior quoted in this blog, Rom 14:5, “One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind”.
Rom 14:6 “He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord”.
Being connected to the Lord every day is in most minds recorded of this forum. Because of having a Minyan activity, under the current calendar, personally I observe this on Fridays after sundown. I also observe honor of the Lord on Sundays under the current calendar. I am “fully convinced in [my own] mind” that these commitments are for the honor of the Lord. I judge no other person in this regard. This clarifies my understanding of that particular commandment’s present day application.
James stated his “perfect Law of Liberty” to be “the royal law found in Scripture ‘Love Your Neighbor as Yourself'”, which Jesus modeled (Jas 2:8, 12, 13 Cf, vs.10-13 in emphasis away from the precepts of Moses and the Commandments as to potential of possibility of extendig an alike Mercy as the Messiah showed. Mercy was the emphasis of Jesus, who James certainly revealed and honored, as such being His Word, Cf Jas. 1:21-25, 2:1: all said “as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ”).
“The Law that gives Freedom” [aka, the Perfect Law of Liberty] is spoken of of the Mercy, and love of Jesus Christ’s word of Mercy in both instances, in James, contrasted with failure of men to keep the Commandments in heart due to favoritism in Synagogue practices, and since the demise of the NT Temple period.
Letters of Paul, John, and James were written at least 45 years after the CE calendar changeover
Isa 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes will not be disturbed.
1Cr 3:11
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Ruth —
Consider this, in the New Covenant, did the Messiah/Christ ever say to pray for visitations of the passed on believers?
Rather we are supposed to seek Eloheem/God, Messiah said to pray to the Father in His name. This can be done by saying various things. For example we can say Father in the name of Jesus Christ, or we can just say Jesus Christ, those are the main ways of doing that, this can happen in any language. Likewise if El/God leads us to talk to the Spirit of Him then we can. If the Messiah/Christ wants us to experience a visitation from other passed on believers it will happen without our request. Rather we should be seeking Imanuel(El/God with us) to visit us, we are supposed to focus on El/God.
Since we are trying to follow the Messiah/Christ why would we then pursue other New Covenant believers that have passed on?
Now there is an exception to this rule, that is if the Spirit leads us to pray for a visitation from past believers, that would be great, but the Spirit does not do this often, because He doesn’t want us to focus on other believers, He wants us to focus on The Father, Son, and Spirit.
Let me ask this though.
Why would anyone seek for a visitation of a more recent believer, when they could seek for Peter, James, John, Paul?
The reason this question is important is because we know more certainly they served the Lord correctly, they made the doctrine, emphasized and lived the importance of all relevant truth.
Lets consider if believers where Jew and goyim(others) that didn’t do Torah customs originally, they would not be instructed to do them, on the witness of Paul talking that believers didn’t have to do the shadow, but all must obey Messiah. Also lets consider the instruction brother Paul taught about the need to obey Messiah before the need of doing things according to the strict law of shabbath, new moon, ect. Paul recognized that whatever place someone was originally in that is where they can stay in, that is if they are circumcised stay that way, but if they are not stay that way too. “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19”
Make no mistake about this Peter came to these same understandings too.
Sheila — People can be just like Messiah and not sin, if they give their lives to Him, and let Him live through them.
Bo —
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Is about Him correctly teaching, and doing the Torah and prophets, which means He teaches us through all the N.C., He doesn’t do things by strict letter, He does things by the leading of the Spirit. Both those that do Torah customs, and those that don’t are accepted, and blessed, as long as both obey the commands of God. The commands of God are not strict Torah.
Travis,
You wrote,
““Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19″”
The NKJV says it this way:
1 Corinthians 7
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
So what counts is keeping the commandments of YHWH. I didn’t say it, Paul did. As best as I can tell, #4 is still a commandment of YHWH. The reason that circumcision is nothing is that in and of itself, it does not prove that we know YHWH. But whether we keep His commandments or not does prove if we know Him. Here is what Paul said about it.
Romans 2
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
If we are circ. and keep the law…no problem. If we are cric. and do not keep the law, our circ. does not count. If we are not circ. and keep the law, our uncirc. counts for circ. There is one other option…if we are uncirc. and do not keep the commandments of YHWH we do not know him.
1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Shalom
Travis,
Redefining scriptural words to mean something that the text does not say and the context of the previous scriptures said is false teaching. When Messiah said commandments, He meant YHWH’s Torah. You cannot invent your own version of this.
Shalom
Travis, I think you’re confusing me with someone else on the forum.
Um…I hope you’ll recheck into my posts, because I’m sure I haven’t espoused the opinion you’re mistaking me with…and you could be having that discussion with whomever did…
Romans 14 is not dealing with commandments of YHWH. It is dealing with things that are disputable…things that have no regulation in the scripture.
You want to eat only veggies…knock yourself out. You want to eat a steak…go for it. You want to celebrate independence day, or your mom’s birthday…good for you. Do you want to celebrate a pagan holiday…scripture clearly forbids such. You want to profane the Sabbath…scripture condemns this as sin. Presumptuous sin, no less.
Shalom
“Sheila — People can be just like Messiah and not sin, if they give their lives to Him, and let Him live through them.”
Oh my, then I must be the only one who has missed the restoration of all things and the second coming when we will be changed into His likeness in an instant, being clothed with His righteousness, as I possess no righteousness other than Him.
1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Phl 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Phl 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith–
Phl 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Phl 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Jesus said if you love me, you’ll keep my commandments.
John 14:15 (NKJV)
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
Also, in John 15:9-11(NIV), we read:
“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.”
Commandments — they haven’t passed away. Keeping them, we remain in His love that our joy may be complete!
I would ask anyone: Who can you believe?
The Son Himself?
Or a friend, relative, preacher, pastor, priest, blogger, minister, co-worker, demagogue, scientist, friend, or what-have-you?
Remember what Jesus said:
John 5:43
“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
They had drifted away from Moses into the traditions of men. I could never advocate a slavish, by-rote, going-through-the-motions performance for anyone, nor would, I’m sure, the Lord. Jesus got to the root, the core, of every problem. Yes, we don’t commit adultery (a commandment) but furthermore, we don’t commit it in our hearts. Not to make things harder for us, but to make it easier. If you take care of the root, you don’t have to worry about eradicating the entire plant. If you stop adultery where it begins, in the heart, you can actually keep that commandment. You can preserve your marriage, and keep away the thorny plants that would choke out the beautiful life you’ve committed to keep clean before God.
His Spirit gives us strength because He wars for us. He who overcame wars on our behalf against the lusts of the flesh, and we become overcomers. Not by our sheer will, never — but by His Spirit which lives in us. We can ask for strength and He will give it.
The commandments haven’t changed. What has is that we have an ally in the indwelling Spirit of the Lord, enabling us to walk with Him, in accordance with His will, in a way that is deeply personal to each one of us.
When you have the Holy Spirit living in you, everyday is the Sabbath day. Having a relationship with the Lord, honoring Him, worshipping Him is more then just 1 day per week.
Oh, of course, Debbie. But that still doesn’t replace the seventh day.
Sure it does. I go to church on Sunday. It doesn’t matter when you worship the Lord.
John 4:23-24
23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
It is dangerous ground to interpret the bible according only to your beliefs. The bible interprets itself, through revelation of the Holy Spirit and the understanding that “the sum of thy word is truth”. This is not an example of that. Striving to find a way to make the bible fit your theology is not commendable or humble, much less honest.
It may just be possible that through the whole theme and testimony of the NT and new covenant, along with the testimony of many more than 3 witnesses that you are simply wrong.
As I was once told…”if one man has an opinion about you, they may just not like you—if two agree and tell you, it may just be a conspiracy—but if three or more are saying the same thing, they are probably right.
Is it possible, Bo, that you are dead wrong? I don’t sense any dialogue from you. Rather, that you are convinced you are 100% right and on a mission to “convert” all “unbelievers”. Zeal and faithfulness are wonderful attributes, and you clearly possess them. But if they are not grounded in truth the consequences are all that more severe.
We worship the Lord daily in spirit and in truth, but we still don’t have the authority to change one jot of His decrees. And neither did the Roman Catholic Church.
I can see the fruits of my generation, and all our constant tailoring to suit only ourselves, and the result I see is lawlessness covering the land, with everyone justifying himself.
And then we bewail the spirit of the age!
Just for the record, I don’t find anything wrong in worshipping on Sunday, or Monday, or any of the remaining days. Worship is good, anytime! But the Sabbath Day was decreed long before any of us were born to be on only one particular day: the Seventh Day. We can’t change that decree. And why would we feel we need to?
It became a tradition from the Council of Laodicea onward and now it’s fully ingrained in our American consciousness. Because of that tradition, we might find it a little inconvenient. But realize that this council didn’t just say, “Oh Sunday is fine, too” — no, they literally outlawed the Seventh-Day Sabbath!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea
Are we really arguing against a day of rest as if it were a burden? It became burdensome only because the Pharisees added to it and did not keep the spirit of it. Do we really prefer the traditions of our Church elders to the words of God, all the while shaking our fingers at the Pharisees (Rabbis) for doing the same?
Dave,
Of course, I could be wrong. I could take you to a sabbath keeping web site and let at least three of those guys tell you that you are wrong. Would you accept their testimony? As far as interpreting the scripture according to my own beliefs…why do you think that you don’t? I think that the whole NT and OT are in opposition to your theology. So, we disagree. You are on one side and I am on the other. These kind of statements prove nothing.
You interpret Romans 14 by your own ideas injected into the text. It does not mention Sabbath. It does not mention pork. But many other places do mention these things and are much more specific. The rule of interpretation is that the specific text is of more weight than the vague. I think my version takes the sum of scripture much better than yours. You think otherwise. Stalemate.
If you expect to convince me that I am wrong, you must show me form OT and NT that it is the case. Otherwise you are not taking the sum of scripture.
Shalom
Bo,
You couldn’t have put it better. Stalemate.
My goal is not to convince you as much as my goal is to know and walk in truth. I sincerely believe your beliefs on these matters are off and create confusion and bondage. You believe the same of mine, I’m sure.
We do both have this hope…if we walk humbly before God and seek Him and His truth…and if we open ourselves to Him to correct any error in our lives and remain teachable I have to believe He is faithful to lead us into truth.
The strange thing is our passion is the same in many ways. We want to walk closely with Him and walk in the fulness of His truth and love. We both feel that the others views are detrimental to this goal. Why don’t we both continue in humility to seek Him and His clarity on these things? And when we get to heaven we will discuss what we have come to find…or maybe we will get a chance to before.
Of course you know I’m saying this still believing what I believe…but I have committed myself to Him and His truth and to remain teachable since He saved me. I mean do we really have another option if we are putting Him first and foremost in all areas of our lives?
Bo wrote:
Redefining scriptural words to mean something that the text does not say and the context of the previous scriptures said is false teaching.
Yet this has occurred very often when equating the commandments of Jesus, highlighted by the Apostles, and others with the Mosaic Law. It has been shown through many proofs in this forum that Jesus gave commandments, and that these are referenced by the Apostles as such in their writings.
I remain baffled at insistence on a Sabbath day observance as the only proper one, when 1) very few people follow the Biblical calendar, 2) Paul clearly outlined keeping a day or days to honor the Lord being a matter of personal election since the calendar shifted, and, that 3) many insistent on Mosaic law here are actually disobeying Jesus by not moving to his internalization by the Spirit of the Way, truth and life which the Messiah ushered in.
DENIAL in psychological circles leads to poor communication, poor reality orientation, fantisy replacing reality as to the center for a locus of control, and self deception. It is sad to see so many texts taken out of 1) context, 2) linguist basis for understanding, 3) historical textual foundations, 4) principles of sound exegesis, 5) a lack of teleological understanding of what was “finished” by Jesus work as the Messiah on his visitation, crucifixion, resurrection, and Kingdom teaching, 6) errant Christoloby, 7) turning one’s back to what is recorded in Acts as to what the Apostle’s actually taught in church planting, 8) TRACING BIBLICAL THEMES THROUGH COVENANTS MADEl
I am having problems with this site, likely with servers along the route to the source computer, but, it is extremely frustrating. On one access of an individual forum it will list X number of comments, on another time of access far less, then back and forth. It can suddenly blank out what one is entering, then, later post it as a partial entry when the submit comment button has not been selected. I normally do not like to complain, but I now do on this matter.
#80 just appeared, as was not finished an edit, automatically. I will repost it when I can get to it. It was not proofed for sense, sentences, or spelling before posting, very frustrating!!!!
First off I am not Jewish. I do not need to celebrate the Sabbath Day. I am not Catholic either. If I was a guy I suppose you would tell me to get circumcised too.
Besides Jesus never rested on the Sabbath Day. The New Testament never commands the Sabbath.
Jesus always criticizes Sabbath rules, and never tells anyone to be careful about what they do on the Sabbath.
Paul dealt with numerous problems of Christian living, but he never tells slaves or others how to keep the Sabbath. He lists numerous sins that can keep a person out of the kingdom of God, but he never mentions the Sabbath. If the Sabbath is important, the silence of the New Testament is astounding.
God accepts us on the basis of Christ, not on whether we keep a certain day of the week. God knows us as his people through Christ, not through a day of the week. The Bible says that the only reason that we please God is because of Jesus Christ….
Titus 3:5-7 “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life”
No matter how many laws we keep, we are sinners, and the only reason that we can be saved is because Jesus died for our sins. But a focus on laws, especially laws that make us different from other people, tends to put the focus back onto ourselves—and what we do.
Jesus criticized people who taught requirements that God did not have: “You experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them” (Luke 11:46).
The Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation, and nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was never part of the message of the New Testament church. The message is always one of liberty, never one of restrictions on a particular day of the week. God accepts us because of Jesus Christ, not because of anything that we do. It is by grace, not works. We are to trust in Christ for our salvation.
““Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19″”
This shows doing of circumcision, or not doing it is not in the keeping of the righteous requirements of the Torah, the keeping of the commandments are not the same thing as circumcision, and non circumcision. Circumcision and non circumcision is not a part of the commandments in the righteous requirements of the Torah.
Did you read and understand what I wrote? How can you ignore it? It was such good meat and truth to it. No bones at all.
The only response I expect is a big fat AMEN!!!!!’
Ruth —
You said, If we seek these types of experiences, though, it might be for less than holy reasons.
————————————–
I was pointing to the fact that in the context of all that I said, if we are led by the Spirit to do something we are having holy reasons, and we don’t need to test something that is holy.
The Torah can not save you. Why are you going there?
Isn’t this a Christian site?
Bo — When we consider Romans 2:25 we also must consider the next scr. I will quote here to see the context. “For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the Torah(law); but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.Romans 2:25
“And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole Torah(law). Gal. 5:3”
So these scr.s show Romans 2:25 that circumcision is profitable if someone keeps everything in the Torah, but the context is it is impossible to keep all the Torah, therefore circumcision doesn’t profit, rather Messiah and His instructions profit, which can lead individuals in many different ways, including to do Torah customs, or not do Torah customs, the idea is all are accepted, as long as they obey the commands of the Messiah.
Sheila —
Consider the believers are to come to the perfect man, being just like Messiah in Eph. 4:13 this is seen.
“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph. 4:13”
Then also consider that Rev. 14:4-5 shows perfect men, they become just like Messiah saying only and doing only what they are supposed too, they are without fault, just like Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. Revelation 14:4-5
Debbie, I am not sure whom you are addressing. I concur with the spirit of your response. I was mentioning the impossibility of keeping the Sabbath, and my edit was not completed due to erratic site or server for the site behavior. [As a side note to your posting, technically I disagree that Jesus did not participate in its observation, where it was possible during his visitation. And, there is sufficient evidence too that He did the Father’s work on the Sabbath, during calendar days, etc. as well. He reframed the intention of the Sabbath by his New Covenant. A read on what I wrote also mentioned Paul’s statements on it, which was to liberate it from literal practice, by a believer’s freedom of election for whatever day a believer chose. I brought up the subject because of the erroneous contexts on matters of the law which Bo has posted and reposted. For example, a reverse look at 1st John’s thematic development was written in reponse to his erroneous assumptions of insistence that John was writing about the law of Moses, or the Decalogue, which, in the text as to what commandments were requested in the 5th chapter stemmed of that heard from the “beginning” of when Jesus walked among his disciples, which, once again was the NC law of liberty (love in the sense that Jesus defined it), not the Sinai Covenant resulting law]. The point was that I did not support what Bo wrote and attempted for ongoing dominance, for it has been pointed out over and over and over by so many here that he has used scripture out of contex over and over and over: as to its requirements. My concerns were about his scholarship, which is basically negligent of truth and grace
My position is the New Covenant Law of Liberty position, which the Apostles advocate. They also warn of not using our freedom for the purposes of license. If anything remains unclear as a result of my posting please let me know.
Travis, I am uncertain of your point on the perfect man, who was, of course, Jesus. As for Rev. 14, there is a context to its statements, of the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judah/Israel/the Jews who are apparently the remnant in that Land who are selected for a unique purpose during the outworkings of the Revelation re” the end times (since Paul stated them to be), and prophetic fulfillments. Unless one is of the tribes in that setting, time, context, Land, etc. it is not a scripture of personal application.
What is the Decalogue?
The Decalogue is the 10 commandments.
Jabez — The Messiah was perfected before Eph. 4:13, but in a spiritual sense His body will be perfected. Consider the believers are to come to the perfect man, being just like Messiah, and not sinning anymore at all, in word, or deed, as Eph. 4:13 shows will happen, before the next resurrection.
“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph. 4:13″
God Bless you Travis. We are on the same page.
I am reposting #80 edited for greater clarity; as mentioned its composition was interrupted.
Bo wrote:
“Redefining scriptural words to mean something that the text does not say and the context of the previous scriptures said is false teaching”.
Yet this has occurred very often when he has erroneously equated the commandments of Jesus, highlighted by the Apostles, and others as differing from the Mosaic Law with the Mosaic Law. It has been shown through many proofs in this forum that Jesus gave commandments, and that these are referenced by the Apostles as such in their writings as his commandments, not those of Moses [sometimes they will echo Moses words,sometimes not, most likely with the New Covenant establishments and emphases with additions, clarifications,or augmentation so as to change or enlarge their essential meaning, where so referenced by Him].
I remain baffled at any insistence on a Sabbath day observance as the only proper one, when 1) very few people follow the Biblical calendar since the CE/AD establishment of time, 2) Paul clearly outlined keeping a day or days to honor the Lord being a matter of personal election since the calendar shifted, not as being about the Sabbath Day, but as to honoring the Lord, and, that 3) many insistent on Mosaic law here are actually disobeying Jesus by not moving ahead to his internalization by the Spirit of the Way, truth and life which the Messiah ushered in [in the language of the letter to the Hebrews, “The New and Living Way”, in Paul’s references, “The More Excellent Way”, in James “The Perfect Law of Liberty”, in John “that which we heard from the beginning [referenced therein of hearing and encountering Jesus New Commandment to Love as He had], in Peter as “purifying yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other”, in Jude as “Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance…., and, …”the grace of our God…., and, “building yourselves up in your most holy faith and payring in the Holy Spirit, keep[ing] yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to being you to eternal life”. The pattern of confession of the Way by the letter writers is very clear.
DENIAL in psychological circles leads to poor communication, poor reality orientation, fantasy replacing reality as to the center for a locus of control, and self deception. The Center we seek through the Holy Spirit, is Jesus the Christ. It is sad to see so many texts taken out of 1) context, 2) linguistic basis for understanding, 3) historical textual foundations, 4) principles of sound exegesis, 5) a lack of teleological understanding of what was “finished” by Jesus work as the Messiah on his visitation, crucifixion, resurrection, Kingdom teaching, and sending of the Spirit, 6) errant Christology, 7) turning one’s back to what is recorded in Acts as to what the Apostle’s actually taught in church planting, accurately TRACING BIBLICAL THEMES THROUGH COVENANTS MADE (especially as to redemption and how it was/is achieved).
Dear brothers and sisters, our hope rests in the work of Christ, the Messiah, whether we are Jew or Gentile: when our hearts and faith are seated in Him.
Fellow truth-seekers,
I’m finished arguing my point, which is simply this: Jesus’ words carry more weight than anyone else’s, and He clarified the spirit of the Sabbath, but He did not abolish it. Keeping it is not at all a drag or a heavy load if it’s kept the way He intended, spiritually.
Yes, the apostles did not make it a hard and fast rule for Gentiles, not did they forbid it as being only for the nation of Israel. They had authority from God to make it easier for Gentiles to learn about Jesus, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Gentiles should not or must not keep the Sabbath.
Isaiah 56:4-8 (written about the New Covenant) makes God’s position pretty clear:
“For this is what the LORD says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant—
to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to minister to him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”
The Sovereign LORD declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.”
Reading Isaiah 55 and 56 in their entirety shows that God is referring to the new, everlasting covenant period.
Everything that might be assumed or attached to my presumed viewpoint (such as that I would also argue for circumcision) is merely that — presumptions others have added.
Travis, I do agree — we are led by the Spirit in a more personal way through the New Covenant, and therefore if we are in that trusting relationship, we need not re-question everything we are directed to do, etc. I don’t think that means that we are beyond being deceived, however, by possible spiritual manifestations.
I feel led to keep the Sabbath spiritually — not with rituals, etc. — on the seventh day, as He decreed (before the formation of Israel). Perhaps the Lord hasn’t laid that on your heart — so okay — just don’t accuse others who are led that way to be “legalists” or “Judaizers” or whatever.
Can we agree that we just have to follow His lead?
Peace to all