Talking about the Gospel and Money

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The End of the American Gospel Enterprise

How Saved Are We?

30 Comments
  1. Mt 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

    Dr Brown is it right that the church keep track of your tithe?

    Until the whole world hears,

    Ethan

  2. I’ve never heard an in-depth exegesis of Jesus’ views on lending. They run completely counter to ‘the way of the world’ or ‘business as usual’ and are actually revolutionary.

  3. Ethan,
    Very, very good question. I would like to know the answer to that too.

    My opinion is,,,I believe the reason the church does keep track of one’s giving is for tax purposes.

    But Ethan you have a great point. Should they biblically speaking?

  4. The bible does not use the word gambling.But gambling most definitely is focused on the LOVE OF MONEY and undeniably tempts people with the promise of quick and easy richs.1 tim 6:8-11 proverbs 13:11+23:5 ecclesates 5:10 heb 13:5.

  5. You said that investing in the stock market is a sin.But stock is a means for people to become part owners of a company.Buying stock is not gambling any more than owning a business.Your trying to make a profit by making something of benefit to customers.Investors get thier share of profits in the form of dividends or increases in the value of the stock.

    Also,when the stock is sold both buyer and seller agree on the price.There is no wager!No prior agreement to risk loss at anothers expense.If either thinks the price is unfair they refuse to deal.I’m sure there is ways to gamble and sin in the stock market but buying stock is not gambling.

  6. Re: The Gambling Discussion

    I’m just considering gambling in light of the idea of “chance” and “luck.” When people gamble, are they invoking in a sense the idea of such a thing as chance and luck? This may have more to do with ancient concepts of such, as found among the Greeks and Romans in the pagan world, than a Christian can be comfortable with.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100916100503.htm

    http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Tykhe.html

    I get what you mean, Dave, about family members enjoying a game of poker. It’s mainly about family members playing a game together — the laughter, joking, some suspense over who will “win” and “lose” and if there is some money involved, it might heighten that pleasure. I’m not one to take issue with that..on the surface it seems innocent enough.

    When it comes to gambling on a larger scale, people have lost their minds over the pursuit of “feeling lucky” — so it may be that a little is not a problem, but a lot — potentially disastrous — and we’re probably all in agreement that it couldn’t be something God would encourage.

    ?

  7. …some about gambling:

    “No one’s gonna get rich or is “loving money”.” – Dave

    Do you ever return everyone’s money upon winning?

    Do you think your church should buy lottery tickets? That would be fun.

    Would Travis be ok if the charity (or the beggar) he gave money to, gambled with it?

    Should our government gamble with tax dollars?

    When would you, Travis, stop gambling? What dollar value would be the threshold where you’d say – ok, now I’m done? If you won, would you use your winning to attempt to increase your winnings – risking losing any and all gain? If it was smart the first time, why ever stop? Maybe you’d come to think your “luck has run dry”?

    If gambling can be good then let’s get more churches doing it. Jesus may institute gambling when He returns and establishes the Kingdom. Gambling is obviously for people who want more money and who think they deserve more money (because they’ll use it good) without having to work for it.

    Ain’t gambling crummy though – all those people putting money in and so few getting money out. I’d rather just live with regular, fair trading, where everybody can get a good deal (and where it’s much less likely people are getting ripped off).

  8. Ruth,

    You explained well what I was trying to say. You know, the funny thing is I never had the experience I used as an example.

    Juan:

    Seriously man, it’s quarters. The love of money is a heart condition, not one that can be given definition by mere human principles. So do you have an exhaustive list of what are “yes’s” and “no’s” on the “love of money list”? Is it possible for a poor person to have the love money? Is it possible for a rich person to not? Is it possible for two completely different people from completely different backgrounds to do the same exact thing…one rooted in the love of money, one not? OF COURSE IT IS.

    To All:

    Why must there be an answer for every little thing? Do we have the Holy Spirit or don’t we? And I mean that seriously, not as some easy-out to live however I want.

    There is no excuse ever to go beyond what the bible clearly does or does not dictate on how others are to live or definitions of “sin”. The Lord will not allow me to do “neutral” things many others can…because how it affects me internally, or just because “He said so”. And He may allow things for me He won’t for you. Why is that so hard to understand? What did most of the 1st century church do without scriptures(OT and NT)? They lived by the Spirit and Paul’s limited instruction. It’s not just a charismatic cliche. He is more than able to lead and guide us so why the externals of “don’t taste, don’t touch”?

  9. I absolutely love to gamble. Love it. Its my sickness. The Lord told me when I gamble I am like a cat crawling up a tree with nails sticking out. I am only hurting myself. I never collect in gambling.
    I truly, truly believe online poker is so fixed.
    That is why I don’t play for money anymore.

    I can not wait until one day the Lord will bring His wrath on all those evil people who cheat and steal and rob from people by rigging their sites.

  10. Dave-I am not questioning your heart.I don’t like to get into debates very often because I’m not very good at getting my point across.But I’ve seen the evils of gambling.It destroys people and families.

    Why is it more fun to play cards for money then say,match sticks?I believe at the root is the love of money.People start out playing for pennies,nickels,dimes and quarters and it often escalates from there.I’ve seen it happen to friends of mine and it happen to me.It’s one of satans great lies.I managed to get control before it got to bad but many can’t.

    Arguments and fights breakout in these nickel and dime games over a dollar or two that would never happen if they were just playing for fun.I’ve seen it happen.When you have money involved peoples attiudes will change.

    Long before I got saved and gave my life over to the lord I played alot of pool.Often for a dollar a game.People would argue and fight over a dollar.It would only happen if they were playing for money.I believe at the root of this is the love of money.

    Dave,I’m not saying you would ever get that carried away.There is a reason why it’s more exciting to play for money than match sticks or just for the fun of it.

  11. Bob,

    Thank you for that post. I agree. I don’t even gamble. I have seen happen what you have mentioned. Sometimes it is just wise to take the higher road and not even open the door.

    I am not a debater either. I guess my point is that wisdom is one thing but calling something sin is another. There really are mature people who can have fun once in awhile with something like what I mentioned.

    I know myself I would never step foot in a casino or real gambling of any kind because I know me. I just think it is very important that people are able to choose themselves on these issues without pressure or being made feel like they are in sin if they do.

    I am very passionate about the freedom we have in Christ. I am also very passionate about removing everything in my life that prevents me from being close to Him. That, in essence, is what a relationship is all about, don’t you think? To have Him involved in every area of our life, submitted to Him and in intimate relationship with Him.

    My life was consumed with various addictions with some very intense and life controlling before the Lord. I then swung over to the other side of control and legalism just to find myself in as much bondage internally, not to mention my hyper-sensitive criticism of others who didn’t live as I thought was right. It is from those experiences I realized the only way for me to have true faith, victory and joy was to walk in His freedom, obedient to Him in all things. Freedom is a scary word because it implies just that, freedom. I choose to use my freedom to love and please Him. Others may not, but that is there freedom and choice. External rules(outside the basic obvious things mentioned in scripture) bind people up and actually prevent people from coming closer to Him. Wisdom, like you mentioned above, is freeing and imparts life to those who hear drawing them closer to Him.

    That’s my opinion anyway. 🙂

  12. I appreciate your honesty there, Debbie. My addiction (or crutch, maybe) has been food. It may not carry the “evil” label that such things as drugs or deviant sexuality do, but it is still something of the flesh to overcome, and with His help, I will. Sometimes, though, I find myself mindlessly eating while doing something, and I’ll sometimes tell myself ‘I need the energy’ – but overeating does not give energy, it takes it. The Lord’s been tapping me on the shoulder so to speak to face that it is a problem, just like any other, and I’ve been in all kinds of denial about it! It’s one of those things that we easily hide from ourselves because food is nourishment, and we can think ‘just a little more’ and it can seem so benign. He’s told me to not reach for food as much as I do, but keep water with me, and drink frequently. That what I really want is Him, and the water will remind me of Him. It’s true for me!

    Sorry to get off topic! Just wanted to confess, too!

  13. “There really are mature people who can have fun once in awhile with something like what I mentioned.” – Dave

    Suppose that’s about like drinking in moderation? I’m sure drunkiness is wrong, as well as serious gambling.

    And you wouldn’t want to lead someone else into temptation, of course, even if you were being moderate.

    For myself I think it’s a waste of time and money, so I’d rather avoid gambling all together. The same goes for most any leisure activity – I’d rather be productive, which doesn’t translate to cash (as with volunteering, learning, etc). I can have plenty of fun while attempting to not wasting time – it’d be even easier if everyone else would do similarly.

  14. Most of the time when I have chosen to gamble it was not a serious thing, it was just small amounts. Actually just played Loteria a Latino game, with quarters, just something fun to do, makes it alittle more interesting with a maybe 2 -8 dollars.
    I personally don’t like to limit anything that God can chose to do, because I don’t want to have mans tradition that makes the Word of God of none effect. So I recognize scr. doesn’t state gambling is wrong, the scr. explains that doing things according to the flesh are wrong, so anyone that does that accord to their sin leading them is wrong, but if their heart is right, notice I said if, if their heart is right, then they have freedom to use their money in that way, just like some people use their money in various other ways like stocks, which are not always a guaranteed reward, and going to an event that is quickly over in one day, or a few hours, sometimes getting a loan in this day an age could for some people be a gamble, because they might not know if they have enough money to pay it off.

  15. Travis-I disagree,there is a big difference between gambling and taking out a loan or investing in stocks as I explained in my post above.You take a risk when you get in a car and drive down the highway,but that is not the same as gambling.I have given my reasons on what I believe about gambling,so that is enough said on my part.

    I would like to hear from Dr.Brown on this subject.And as Dave said,that’s my opinion anyway.

  16. James 4
    13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
    14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
    15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
    16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
    17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

    When you sign a loan document, is there a place to write, “if the Lord will” on it? Taking out a loan is saying, “we will go into such a city,… and continue to make payments for 30 years.” Paul says, “owe no man anything, but to love one another.” The scripture says having to borrow is the sign of being cursed.

    So do we really have to borrow and thus are cursed, or are we covetous and proud? If we continue in the latter won’t we get the former? If we know that it is right to not say, “I will continue for…and buy…” a house or car or TV, is it sin?

    Covetousness, in one sense, is wanting something that has not been granted us. If we lavish upon ourselves things we cannot pay cash for, what is it? Would it not be correct to save up the money for the TV and then buy it? The car? The house?

    Going into debt is not only gambling your own wealth but that of others. Then enters the insurance company. If the bank didn’t think it was a gamble why do they require insurance? If you do not think it is a gamble why do you want insurance? If we trust YHWH, why would we take life into our own hands by going into debt in the first place? And signing documents that contradict scripture?

    Luke 16
    10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
    11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
    12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?
    13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    So we say, “we will go…and get gain…and pay our payments…for umpteen years,…the economy willing and the insurance company not defaulting.” “Ye cannot serve YHWH and mammon.” Which master do we really love? If it is not serving mammon when we go into debt…why do we call it debt service?

    “For that which is highly esteemed among men” (going into debt/wanting something now that we cannot afford now) “is abomination in the sight of God.”

    Shalom

  17. I agree that we shouldn’t go into debt. But a good friend will lend when there is real need. And not charge interest! Banks and credit card companies depend on people NOT paying their debts on time in order for interest to accrue daily! They don’t make money off of people paying it off fast before the interest can build. They make it from delinquent loans. That is outrageous.

    I know that many times debt can be avoided. And I agree that it is best to save for the needs of the future, and know that if God is willing, we will continue on to (hopefully) enjoy that future.

    Even though companies make it easy for people to get into debt (even encouraging it) we would be wise to avoid it. It’s fun trying to be frugal, actually!

  18. Ruth-I didn’t see your post before I wrote mine.I didn’t steal the word [avoid] from you.lol.I agree with what you said about the banks and the credit card companies as well as the well as the rest of what you wrote.

  19. Bo – I do try to do this. “15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

    So that is why I often say something similiar to that, but there are also times when the Lord has revealed what He will accomplish. Just as scr. shows people prophecy about different things that will happen, they didn’t need to say if the Lord wills, because they realized the Lord wills what they spoke of. The problem happens when people are not led by the Yah/Lord to say things, but if they are led by Him to say things, they can go ahead, just like if they must use the loans, it is not the best choice, scripturally speaking it is better to give the loan, than to accept it, but sometimes people must accept loans. Then as the scr. says in accepting a loan we are supposed to pay it off, we are not supposed to owe anyone anything except to love them.
    So there may be a time where the Lord leads someone to a place, to make a living, and pay off their loans, the problem comes in when they go past His will, and say specific things that are not a sure thing, because the Lord didn’t say they are.

  20. Another thought, if we have loans it is the Yah/Lord’s will for us to pay it, as long as we can, we must not owe anyone anything except to love them. So in that case it is not a choice of us saying we will get a job, because we must, if we can, it is a command from the Lord to get a job, and pay it off, now we may not know how that will be done, or where, or exactly when, but it must be done, so sometimes the Spirit of aman(trust, faith, belief) will cause us to say we will do things, that is scriptural, and correct, but if the Spirit of aman(trust, faith, belief) is not causing us to do things, that is when we sin.

  21. nowhere in the new covenent does it say that you have to give 10% and people do because pastors make them give that and they use the old covenent to abuse that !! shame on them ! i give what ever i can and sometimes i give more then the 10% ! but i give because i can and i love too ! and sometimes churches kick you out because you dont give or you cannot be in leadership or partisipate in a church function ! woww that not nice !

  22. I do not believe in gambling to win money.I don’t believe it is a sin but it is wrong. I believe as a christian we are to tithe. God cammands us in his word. He says when we trust him and give to him the firstfruits of our labour, he promises us that he will pour out a blessing on us, there will not be romm enough to receive it. He also says he will rebuke the devourer, the enemy, for our sakes. We have to trust the Lord for wealth and blessings.
    Malachi. 3: 9,10,11

  23. Yvette Harris,

    Do you realize that a scriptural tithe has to be animals and crops? There is no tithe of wages. In truth, if it is too difficult to transport your tithe to its end destination it is supposed to be turned into money for the trip and then spent on food when you get there.

    If this were practiced today, I wonder how many TV evangelists would be living in multi-million dollar homes. I wonder if they would choose used car sales or pay day loans for a new business.

    I am also wondering if you practice the other verses in the Law and the Prophets, such as Sabbath and feast days and such.

    Shalom

  24. I want to go a step further on this cuestion about tithe,and to encourage it, even if its not a mandate,or a law
    Now dont get me wrong ,I know we have to give,and giving with a happy heart and understending, if GOD is giving you big salary than you give more then the 10 percent with understendigand with a happy heart,if you are not happy dont give it, GOD knwos your heart,If you are getting minimun salary your priority beford the lord its your family,and then share to the gospel and ofcourse its going to be less then 10 percent, do not feel in anyway condamd,steel god knows your heart.

    Saul was told to kill everything of a village everithing,and he did not do so,his heart encourage him to save for the lord,fat cows and other animals,you know the story,he did this to pleace the lord,was the lord pleaced, no he was no.

    So here my real cuestion,tithing was a law,and if we agree to one law we most agree to all law,and be despoce of grace,even if someone encourage the tithe to be given not as law,it is steel a law,can this person be doing like Saul

    Paul said 16:2 Every first day of the week each of you lay by him, as he may prosper, keeping it, so when I come no collections will have offerings.
    Paul was succeeded as he agrees, to find love and heart, of course, Christians know that pastors are worthy of taking what people give,that is real call pastors, Paul says he who preach the word of the word may live, among others, Paul was used greatly by God to preach the gospel that had been given by revelation, and congregations to teach everything Jesus commanded. None of the apostles, servants or disciples preached tithing.

    Again and I’m no theologian or anything, but if we claim to be followers of the early church apostolic Christ-centered, where Christ or the Apostel called or preached tithing.

    So I dont agree with tithing in any way,defenitly not by law,nor by encouragmen,and my next words are not to scare anyone ,but the truth is we most answerd to JESUS at one point,and I know many are preching tithing with a humble hurt and only to glorify the lord,but like saul isit what the lord whants.

    If someone its call to be a pastor,he most trust the HOLY SPIRIT,and not push people to do what they should not do,and teach to do what they shoul do

    How do you whant your CROWN AND REWARDS 2co5 10 For we must all appearbefore the judgment seat of Christ; that every one mayreceive the things [done] in[his] body, according to that he
    hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
    Amen
    Thanck you for you time and GOD bless you DR Michol Brown and all your ministry

  25. Scriptural tithing is a good thing, but it is not possible to give money as a scriptural tithe. It must be the increase of the ones animals and/or crops. Generosity, especially to the poor, is always possible and good. Money, time, food, and clothing are all acceptable gifts of charity. A food bank is about as close to bringing the tithes into the storehouse as we can get today.

    1 Timothy 6
    5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
    7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
    8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
    9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
    10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

    Preachers content with food and raiment would be a good thing. Gain does not necessarily equal godliness. But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    Shalom

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