Debbie — You said, Jesus went to the place called Sheol(another word is called Hades). Sheol contains 2 parts. Paradise and Hell.” —————————————- I say, Do you believe that Sheol(Hades) is not hell?
Only half of it. There was 2 sides.
Dave — You said, My question is would it be accurate to say there was salvation before Jesus?” —————————————– I say, the only full salvation that exists is through Yeshua/Jesus, even in the O.C. Let me try to explain. The Tanach/Old Covenant & New Covenant is like a spiritual picture of Messiah laying down, the Tanach/O.C. can be like His legs, & the New Covenant is like everything above His legs. It is like He is laying throughout time, bring life to everyone that believes, and that will believe in Him. So all that believed of the Tanach/O.C. brethren during the time of Messiah preaching to them after they died, means they have always been inside of Him, but they were inside of Him in the legs part, and couldn’t go into the part above the legs until Messiah came and did what He did. Now those believers are a part of the body of Messiah in manifestation, as well as in an eternal understanding, because they believed in Messiah.
Debbie — May I please ask, what scr. you are referring to that He went to Sheol(Hades)?
Chuck — When the Messiah caused this scr. to happen. “51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matt. 27:51-53”
When He caused that scr. to happen do you really believe He then forced them to take their body back off, and go back to where they were at?
Travis, Read and Learn.
Ephesians 4:8-10 8 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Another one too Travis…
The most poignant evidence that Jesus did not go to the part reserved to the wicked of “hades” or “sheol” is the following text pronounced by Jesus Himself while hanging on the cross. He was addressing this promise to the thief on the cross who asked Him to remember him when He would come into His kingdom.
Luke 23:43 “Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
When Jesus died He went to the part of “hades” or “sheol” called “paradise” and so did that thief on the cross next to Him. He never went to the part reserved to the wicked.
To Don Johnson…
L O L
At death the body is called dead because nobody is home.
…and God?! Thomas previously failed to understand how “the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father [Jn 14; cp. Paul’s understanding whereby “God was in Christ”]. He finally got it at Jn 20.28, recognizing both the “lord” Messiah and “the God” of them both!
When He caused that scr. to happen do you really believe He then forced them to take their body back off, and go back to where they were at?
Scripture does not say they were raised to eternal life only that they were raised from the dead, like Lazarus and others in the OT. If this is not correct, what does scripture mean when it calls Jesus “the firstborn from the dead…the firstfruits” of those who are currently dead [Col 1.18; Rev 1.5; 1Cor 15.20]?!
We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him…For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Rom 6.9; 14.9
“Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” Revelation 1:17-18
It seems to me that Jesus preached to the spirits imprisoned by sin at the time of Noah, speaking to them by the spirit of God which is his dwelling place, his heavenly home.
I wonder if it can said concerning a man who is truly a wise man, or was once truly a wise man by the biblical definition, that he has not heard the gospel. I wonder if such a statement could be true.
I suppose in a sense it could be said if he had never heard of Jesus, his sacrifice, the cross, his resurrection from the dead, and his day of judgment to come, and all the rest of the gospel.
Yet, if he walked his days on this earth in the fear of God and did receive things of the spirit of God, knowing of his way with God, of God’s way that he had given him, can it really be said that he has never heard the gospel?
Could it really be said that he never heard from Jesus?
But how easily the way of God seemed to be hid, though it was in the earth.
It seems to me that so few would be saved without the Lord Jesus coming in the flesh to save such as would be saved by him.
It seems to me that many who have lived and died have gone on to meet the Lord Jesus and I trust they who walked this earth by his spirit, recognized him when he was revealed to them.
And what of those who never knew that way, who never walked by the spirit of God? I trust that God who will have all men to be saved, such as shall be saved will know what to do and will do everything possible and legal to save them.
Chuck — He is the firstborn from the dead, because He had power to raise Himself up, everyone else couldn’t raise themselves up, but there will be others that have power to raise themselves up just like our Messiah, because that power is given to them also by the Spirit. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18” “But each one in his own order: Messiah(Christ) the firstfruits, afterward those who are Messiah’s(Christ’s) at His coming. 1 Cor. 15:23”
Chuck,
When did you become one of the Jehovah Witnesses?
Are there any Jehovah Witnesses from the completion of the New Testament up to the time of Mr. Russell, who you could identify?
“I’m sorry but I do not believe you. I know in all my heart and soul what I said is the truth.” – Debbie Fraser
“I do not doubt your believes or feelings [Rom 10.2], but their just not based on what the scriptures have to say regarding the state of the dead.” – Chuck
What difference will it make? From the sidelines, I won’t worry about who’s right or wrong in this dispute.
Interesting thoughts, Travis. But I gotta say, when you write things like Yeshua/Jesus, Elohim/God, Tanach/O.C. it sure makes it difficult to read!
Travis
He is the firstborn from the dead, because He had power to raise Himself up…
As Jn 10.18 says, Jesus willingly gave up his life for all those who would believe what he said about his God and Father. Note that it is a commandment he received [cp. John 12:49;14:31;15:10].
If Jesus was somehow God, did he really even die for you or me? Scripture is clear that “God raised Jesus from the dead” [Acts 2:32; Acts 3:15; 4:10; 10:40; 13:30; Acts 13:34, 37; 17:31; Romans 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:15; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 1:21; Ephesians 2:5].
Or do you really believe Jesus raised himself from the dead? If so, take note of Peter’s words and carefully reflect on them:
We must obey God rather than any human authority. The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead after you killed him by hanging him on a tree.
Then God put him in the place of honor at his right hand as Prince and Savior.
He did this so the people of Israel would repent of their sins and be forgiven. We are witnesses of these things and so is the Holy Spirit, who is given by God to those who obey him. Acts 29-32
Don
When did you become one of the Jehovah Witnesses?
I am not a JW. I do not believe in the literal preexistence of the Son, nor that he was an angel who metamorphosed into a human being, etc. I tend to go with scripture and believe that his “origin” [genesis, Mat 1.1,18-20] and “coming into existence [Luke 1.30-35] took place in the womb of a young Jewish virgin 2 000 years ago.
This is not something new btw. Many have shared my believes throughout the Milleniums and still do. As J.D.G. Dunn in his Christology in the Making notes:
Is then thought of Jesus’ birth as the incarnation of a pre-existent Son of God implied here [in Gal 4.4]? Would Paul’s readers have drawn such an inference? Could Paul have expected his readers to recognize such an implication?…there seems to have been little real precedent for such an idea of incarnation, very little which might have prompted such an inference or invited such an implication.
[Cf. G. Dalman, The Words of Jesus, ET 1902: ‘The statements as to preexistence in the Similitudes of Enoch, of 2 Esdras, and in Pesikta Rabbati, do not presuppose any human birth of Messiah. He is to make his appearance upon earth as a fully developed personality…Judaism has never known anything of a pre-existence peculiar to the Messiah antecedent to his birth as a human being’ (p. 131).]
…such language only appears in Christian writings of the second century subsequent to the ideas of virginal conception in Matthew and Luke and the sending of the pre-existent Logos in John and as the harmonization of them (Ignatius, Eph. 7.2; Aristides, Apology 15.1; and especially Justin, Apol. 1.21.1; 32.10-14; 63.15f.; Dial. 45.4; 84.2; 85.2; 127.4). It follows that if Paul intended to imply what we now call the doctrine of incarnation in Gal 4.4 he would have been taking a radically new step, something his readers could hardly have expected to come from a Jew.
[The closest parallels would mislead rather than illuminate Paul’s meaning. In particular, if the language had indeed suggested the idea of a ‘miraculous’ birth, anyone familiar with the Jewish scriptures would presumably have thought of births to women who were barren or past child-bearing age, like Sarah (Gen. 17.15f. – ‘God said to Abraham…”I will give you a son by her”‘) or Rachel (Gen.30.22 – ‘God opened her womb’.]
And if he [Paul] intend to take that step we would have expected his earliest recorded intimation of it to be a much more explicit and careful exposition (cf. the care he takes to expound his understanding of who the seed of Abraham really are – Gal. 3).
Had Paul indeed taught a doctrine of incarnation (the pre-existence of the Son of God, the man Christ Jesus) in his mission it would inevitably have been open to misunderstanding and abuse…so that a greater clarification and fuller exposition of it would almost certainly have appeared elsewhere in his writings. It does not seem a very sound basis for an exegesis of Gal 4.4 to argue both that Paul had already taught an explicit doctrine of incarnation, and also that such a novel teaching caused scarcely a ripple in the often troubled waters of the Pauline mission. In short, it would appear unwise…that Paul’s readers would have at once recognized an allusion to a specific and already well established Christian teaching on Jesus as the incarnate Son of God. [pp42-43]
Dave
Interesting thoughts, Travis. But I gotta say, when you write things like Yeshua/Jesus, Elohim/God, Tanach/O.C. it sure makes it difficult to read!
And unscriptural when it comes to the NT books. If the writers of the NT had wanted to literally write YHWH, Yeshua etc., they would have. As they often write in other languages like Aramaic [Abba Father] etc.
It is not unscriptural to say different languages. The reason I write that, that way, is because that is what the Yah/Lord is leading me to do, because I first go to the Jew, then to the goyim(nations, gentile), just as scripture talks about.
Chuck — The only begotten Son of El/God is also called Imanuel(El/God with us). Yeshua/Jesus said that when we see Him we see the Father. “Yehoshua(Jesus) saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Yochanan/John 14:9”
As far as the resurrection we can see why Messiah could raise Himself up in this next scr. “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26”
Chuck,
Since you’re not real big on Christianity, who do you feel you are trying to serve?
Travis
The only begotten Son of El/God is also called Imanuel(El/God with us).
Do you know what the word begotten means? If you do you will find that if your said to be begotten it does not mean you are somehow one and the same God.
As for Isa 7.14 [“God with us”]…
…we know that God was with the people in Jesus Christ, and Jesus himself said that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father.
The significance of the name is symbolic. God was with us, not literally, but in His Son, as 2 Cor. 5:19 (NASB) indicates: “That God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.” It is important to read exactly what was written: God was in Christ, not God was Christ.
Many people were given names that would cause great problems if believed literally. Are we to believe that Elijah was “God Jehovah,” or that Bithiah, a daughter of Pharaoh, was the sister of Jesus because her name is “daughter of Jehovah?” Are we to believe that Dibri, not Jesus, was the “Promise of Jehovah,” or that Eliab was the real Messiah since his name means “My God [is my] father?” Of course not…
We know that Jesus’ name is very significant—it communicates the truth that, as the Son of God and as the image of God, God is with us in Jesus, but the name does not make Jesus God.
As far as the resurrection we can see why Messiah could raise Himself up in this next scr…John 5:26″
Perhaps you miss the point of such texts [or selective in your reading] but note that whatever the Son had or was or is depends on his God and Father.
I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me [believers] will live because of me. Jn 6.57
A reference to the immortal life that, even before his death, the Son claims for himself, IN FAITH! Exactly the same way as we believers claim it for our own.
Don
Since you’re not real big on Christianity, who do you feel you are trying to serve?
Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.
Chuck,
Could you give us John 1:1 from the Bible you use and then tell us what you believe it to mean?
Don
Could you dispense with your condescending attitude?
PS: I am not JW! Nor part of [affiliated with] any other known ‘Christian’ denomination.
Travis, you said
It is not unscriptural to say different languages. The reason I write that, that way, is because that is what the Yah/Lord is leading me to do, because I first go to the Jew, then to the goyim(nations, gentile), just as scripture talks about.
I never said it was unscriptural….just hard to read, for me, in a practical sense. In fact I was just having fun.
Travis,
Woops…misunderstood your post and how it was a continuation from the previous post….
Either way, I was just having fun.
Chuck,
I understand you’re not a Christian. However, at the same time you seem to believe some of the Bible and disregard other portions. I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from. If you don’t want to answer my questions its OK. I’m just curious if these are just your thoughts or if you belong to some group who I’m not familiar with.
Don
I understand you’re not a Christian…I’m just curious if these are just your thoughts or if you belong to some group who I’m not familiar with.
What makes you think I am not a Christian? Because I do not adhere to traditional orthodoxy [immortal soul, trinity, etc.]?
I adhere to the following belief:
# There is one God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6), the one God of the creed of Israel affirmed by Jesus Christ (Mark 12:28ff). The Father is “the only true God” (John 17:3).
# There is one Lord Messiah, Jesus (1 Cor. 8:6), who was supernaturally conceived as the Son of God (Luke 1:35), and foreordained from the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20).
# The Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God extended through the risen Christ to believers (Ps. 51:11).
# The Bible, consisting of the Hebrew canon (Luke 24:44) and the Greek New Testament Scriptures, is the inspired and authoritative revelation of God (2 Tim. 3:16).
# In the atoning, substitutionary death of Jesus, his resurrection on the third day, and his ascension to the right hand of the Father (Ps. 110:1; Acts 2:34-36), where he is waiting until his enemies are subdued (Heb. 10:13).
# In the future visible return of Jesus Christ to raise to life the faithful dead (1 Cor. 15:23), establish the millennial Kingdom on earth (Rev. 20:1-6, etc.) and bring about the restoration of the earth promised by the prophets (Acts 1:6; 3:21; 26:6, 7).
# In the regenerating power of the Gospel message about the Kingdom (Matt. 13:19; Luke 8:12; John 6:63), enabling the believer to understand divine revelation and live a life of holiness. # In baptism by immersion upon reception of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the things concerning Jesus (Acts 8:12; Luke 24:27).
# In the future resurrection of the saved of all the ages to administer the renewed earth with the Messiah in the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:2; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26; 3:21; 5:10).
# Christians ought never to take up arms and kill their enemies and fellow believers in other nations (Matt. 26:52; John 15:19; 18:36; 1 Pet. 2:9-11; 1 Chron. 22:8).
Hello Dave — Just wanted to let you know Chuck said it was.
Chuck — I really do agree with Don, are you going to answer his question.
Could you give us John 1:1 from the Bible you use and then tell us what you believe it to mean?
Chuck — I will soon explain more thoroughly my position, if the Yah/Lord wills. Chayn(grace, favor, mercy), chesed(mercy, kindness, love), and Shalom(peace, wholeness in all areas) to you, and all in Messiah Yehoshua/Jesus.
Dave — Brother it is ok, don’t feel bad, I have an intention to not judge anyone, I am a developing believer, and I still have much more room to grow. Plus I try to understand other people’s positions too, and I thought of your position, and sometimes I don’t use both, but the Lord desires for me to understand that I don’t have to cater to everyone, even though I must love everyone. I believe that service to the Lord is first, and foremost, before service to others, and myself, so I put effort to seek His kabod/glory, and not my own. Other times I do cater to the needs of other people without going away from the laws of Messiah/Christ. Part of the reason He has me do that, is because of the importance of the Torah of Moses.
Chuck,
Did Jesus have a physical body when He was resurrected or was it a spirtual body only?
Don
Did Jesus have a physical body when He was resurrected or was it a spirtual body only?
John 20.19-20; 24-27; 1Cor 15.35-49.
Hey Chuck,
When a Christian doesn’t believe in the trinity, is it wrong to worship the Holy Spirit or Jesus? I had a friend who was JW and he said they didn’t believe in the trinity and they didn’t worship Jesus, just God the Father.
To Chuck,
Question to you. Where is Elijah and Enoch? Seeing that they never died. Where did they go?
Dave
When a Christian doesn’t believe in the trinity, is it wrong to worship the Holy Spirit or Jesus?
First of all, how can you worship someone’s “spirit”? Its not even scriptural.
Second, Jesus teaches us not only how, but who we should worship.
…true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. Jn 4.23
But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private…Pray like this:Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Mat 6.6, 9
Lastly, Messiah is “worshiped” in the NT [i.e. book of Revelation] not as God, but as the Son of God/Lamb/Messiah.
Debbie
Where is Elijah and Enoch? Seeing that they never died. Where did they go?
Heb. 11 does mention Enoch by name and says he was taken up to heaven without dying. That is, he was “transferred” in mortal life. But then it says “all these people [including prophets] died” without receiving God’s promises [that is, life eternal in the KOG].
I knew where Elijah and Enoch are. I was just testing you to see if you knew. They were raptured up into Heaven. They are with Jesus and all the other children of God.
Yeshua/Jesus said to pray to the Father in His name, so that means we also worship the Father, this can be done in different ways. We can do this by worshiping the Father in different ways, any of the Father can be worshiped, remember Jesus is another manifestation of the Father, and sometimes He goes back into the Father, likewise the Spirit is the Father too in another manifestation, all three are the Father. I will try to explain.
In order to develop and know more about the Lord we have to be humble, otherwise we will not be able to understand everything correctly. Please look at Daniel 7:13-14 which I wrote, the Son of man is Jesus the Messiah, and the Ancient of Days is The Father of all, including the Father of Jesus the Messiah, that is one reason why Yeshua/Jesus is said to be the Son of Man(God). “13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 7:13-14”
“28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor. 15:28″Notice the Son is made subject unto the Father. Remember also Messiah said that He has the Father of all as His Father. “Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; John 16:10″One meaning of Rev. 3:14 is Messiah is the first of creation, also He is more than that too, being that He is the Father in another form, in other words a different manifestation of the Father. “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev. 3:14” So since He is the first of creation, He is created by the Father, so the Father is over Him that is why the Messiah said, that His Father is His Father, and His El(God).
So then as the first of creation and the one who creates everything too, His is another manifestation of the Father, it is like the Father duplicated Himself, making the Son of Himself.Now also the Son also can go back into the Father, and become the Father in manifestation fully, because remember He sat down with the Father in His throne according to scr. Rev. 3:21. Also since the only Begotten Son of the Father is the Father manifesting Himself in another place, that means the Son is constantly in the Father, and the Father in the Son, because the Son came from Him, and is Him in another manifestation.
There are those who say that Christians who do not believe Jesus existed with God from eternity and yet believe in his virgin birth, really only believe he is a glorified man, and there are those who suppose that Trinitarians who say Jesus is God, deny his sonship at times.
There are those who hold to their belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and so strictly, that they seem to in no way allow for anyone to call him God.
There are also those who seem to think that when another calls Jesus the Son of God, that the term Son of God is simply a religious expression that holds no real value, or that the term is akin to something like a worm, a moth, or some other such thing.
Sometimes I think it will be those who never heard the gospel that will be the ones who will be saved.
Chuck,
It’s not scriptural to worship someone’s spirit? That’s is one difference between how we approach this. The scripture says “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, worship in spirit and in truth”. So if God IS spirit, than how is it unscriptural?
Also, Jesus never stopped people from worshiping Him, Thomas and Mary, for example.
Lastly, in Philippians, it speaks of how Jesus humbles himself, considering equality with God not something to be grasped while on this earth. That doesn’t make Him less God, rather He came “in the likeness of sinful flesh” to show us how to live a life submitted to, led and empowered by His Spirit…that’s how he lived on this earth, as our example.
We have hints throughout scripture, from the beginning. Such as in Genesis when the Lord said “let us make them in our image”. Us? Our? Equality with God is, in essence, God. He wouldn’t use such words as our and us if all weren’t God. I don’t understand why there is a need to fully understand this and deduce our rational to human logic. While the “Trinity” may be an incomplete assessment of exactly how God is, it is launching pad to understanding our approach to God and how He operates, at least in part.
I am sure you have heard this question, but how do you connect the references to where God says of Himself He is one and He allows no one else to be worshiped. And that He never changes? How does that fit in with the worshiping of Jesus in revelation…or worshiping of Jesus in the NT? Or of how the Pharisees attempted to stone Him because He was making himself equal with God?
Dave
So if God IS spirit, than how is it unscriptural?
The text in question says “worship GOD”, not His spirit, some “third…distinct person existing within the One Godhead” composed of “the Father and the Son” — thus making up “the one [triune] God”.
Scripture tells us that although YHWH is described as a “spiritual Being”, He is also said to have this spirit within Him. This concept may be confusing for some since Jesus tells us that “God is spirit” [John 4.24]. So we must keep in mind that the spirit of God [an expression of His character, mind and Person] is the One and the same Person of God.
In other words, while “God is spirit”, God also has a spirit that is said to work and communicate to us [cp. John 14.15f.]. This is parallel to the Johannine saying that “God is love” [1 John 4.8] or “God is light” [1 John 1.5]. Again, these are qualities that are perfectly expressed and manifested in the one personal God.
But God has revealed [His promise, purpose, plan, gospel etc.] to us through the spirit, for the spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so [in the same manner] the things of God no one has known, except the Spirit of God. But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, in order that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God.” 1Cor 2.10-13. Revised English Version by Spirit & Truth Fellowship International.
The first thing to note in this passage is the personal quality that is given to “the spirit of man…who” is said to be “in him”. This example is in turn contrasted with that of “the Spirit of God” Who is the one “who knows and searches the deep things of God”. This makes sense only within the Hebraic thinking of the Bible writers who see both “the spirit” and “the man” [in this instance] as representative of the one whole, human person. The same can be said for God in this passage.
God’s spirit as an extension of His Person!
The same idea is also present in the NT when the Apostle Paul prays “that the God of peace Himself…keep your whole spirit and soul and body” holy until the coming of the lord Jesus Christ [1Thess 5.23].
Spirit, soul, and body represent the entirety of [a human person].
It seems unlikely that this is a tripartite division of human nature into body, soul, and spirit, where ‘spirit’ and ‘soul’ would refer to different parts; more likely Paul is simply using several terms for emphasis.
For similar ways of expressing the totality of [a human person] see Matt. 10:28; Mark 12:30; 1 Cor. 7:34. ESV Study Bible
…Jesus never stopped people from worshiping Him, Thomas and Mary, for example.
True, as the human Messiah Jesus, not as God!
The question everyone should be asking themseleves is: what does the bible mean by the term “worship”?!
In the bible “worship” was offered to both God [YHWH] and human beings. This is reflected in the OT Hebrew words: sahah, (Gen 47.31; 1K 1.47; 1Ch 29.20; sahah, Gen 24:26; Gen 37:7; Jdg 7:15; Jos 23:7; Zep 2:11); and the Aramaic verb segeed, corresponding to the Hebrew sagad (Dan 2:46; Dan 3, 28; cf. Rom 12:1).
The NT uses the koine Greek proskuneo, for “angels” [Rev 19.10; 22.8], human beings [Mat 8.2; 18.26; 20.20; Acts 10.25] and false gods or idols [Act 7:43; Rev 13:8; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4].
“Some indefiniteness attaches to this subject, partly owing to the two senses in which the Greek word proskuneo is used, and partly owing to the ambiguous usage of the word kurios [lord]…But it cannot be proven that in any of these cases…more than an act of homage and humble obeisance is intended.
The homage offered to Christ would vary in its significance from the simple prostration of the leper before the Great Healer to the adoration of Mary Magdalene and Thomas in presence of the risen Christ….” Hastings, A Dictionary of the Bible, 4:943.
The bible uses other words to indicate the exclusive “worship” and external or official divine service spoken in reference to the one God of Israel, YHWH. The OT uses the Aramaic palach, applied generally to Daniel’s vision [7.14, 27; cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24] and translated as “servants” of the Jewish Temple [Ezra 7.24]. In the Greek Septuagint [LXX] this is translated as latreuo [“divine” worship; Cp. latreai=service worship, Ex 3:12; 7:16; Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13], the version most in use during the 2nd Temple period.
This word is also used in the same context in the NT, reserved for God alone:
* in a religious sense to worship God (Mat 4:10; Luk 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Act 7:7; 24:14; 27:23; Rom 1:9; Phi 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Rev 22:3);
*used in an absolute sense (Act 26:7; Sept.: Deu 6:13; 10:12; Jos 24:15);
* “worshipping creatures [other] than the Creator”, in other words, assuming Deity (Rom 1:25; Sept.: Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13);
* particularly to the performing of the Levitical service (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10);
* of the celestial temple (Rev 7:15);
* to offer sacrifice, to worship (Heb 9: 9; 10:2; cf. Sept.: Ex 3:12; 7:16).
“…there is no instance of latreuein [to do religious service to] which has Christ as its object.” Wainright, The Trinity in the New Testament, p 103.
“It is equally notable that [the Apostle Paul uses] the normal prayer terms (deomai, deesis)…to God and never to Christ…[He] is neither simply the content of the thanksgiving (the phrase is dia with the genitive “through”, not dia with the accusative “on account of” [cp. Col 1.16]), nor its recipient…
Such uniformity in Paul’s usage should certainly make us hesitate before asserting that Paul [divinely] ‘worshiped’ Christ [as Deity], since the evidence more clearly indicates otherwise.” Dunn, The Theology of Paul the Apostle, p 257-260 [emphasis added].
It is presumptuous to suggest that early Christians were under some kind of “obligation” to render the same type of worship to the Son as to the Father. This is in view of the conclusion by some modern scholars [N. T. Wright, Challenge of Jesus; Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ; JDG Dunn, The Theology of Paul] that a “stunning adaptation [“mutation”, Dunn] of the Jewish prayer known as the Shema [1Co 8.1-6; Phil 2.5-11; Gal 4.1-7; Col 1.15-20; cp. Deu 6.4] somehow took place.
This moving away from Jewish monotheism cannot be justified in view of Jesus’ own use of the Shema in the NT, where it remains consistent with the unchanging and unitarian monotheistic believe he taught.
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one Lord.
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. Mark 12
You also write that the Trinity should be our “launching pad to understanding our approach to God and how He operates, at least in part.” Why not the above statement and all the others regarding the absolute unity of the one God and Father of the lord Messiah Jesus? This is all the creed we need!
…how the Pharisees attempted to stone Him because He was making himself equal with God?
I still find it amazing how many times people seem to side with the Pharisees when it comes to their continued misunderstanding [ignorance] of who Jesus is. The passage you allude to here proves the point whereby Jesus explains to them, from their own scriptures, how the word “god” has been used in a secondary sense for others apart from the one YHWH God. Yet Jesus still, although fully his right, does not take up the title for himself. Since his unique title of “THE Son of God” should’ve been more than enough to explain who he was:
It is written in your own Scriptures[law] that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’[Ps 82.6]…
So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Dave — You said, Lastly, in Philippians, it speaks of how Jesus humbles himself, considering equality with God not something to be grasped while on this earth. ———————————– When I look at Phil. 2:6 it appears to say, …”not robbery thought to be equal with God” It appears He thought He could be equal with Eloheem/God, but that He chose to empty Himself, instead of taking a high position, He chose to take a low position.
shachah means (worship, to bow oneself down, to sink down, along with some other thoughts.)
Make no mistake though El/God deserves the shachah before, and more than anyone else, and Yehoshua/Jesus the Messiah is Imanuel(El/God with us), also Isaiah says He is the Father.
Chuck — I have a rather serious question for you. Do you believe Yeshua/Jesus is Yahuweh/Lord?
Travis
Yehoshua/Jesus the Messiah is Imanuel(El/God with us), also Isaiah says He is the Father.
So Jesus is the God the Father now?
Do you believe Yeshua/Jesus is Yahuweh/Lord?
Jesus is the “lord” Messiah [adoni, Ps 110.1; kyrios, Luke 2.11] and not “LORD, Lord” God [YHWH, Deu 6.4; ho Kyrios, Rev. 4.8,11] God!
Chuck,
John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Question: If Jesus did not exist until conceived in the womb of Mary, how did He share glory with the Father before the world was?
Don
What about believers, when and how did they get it?
…I have given them the glory that you gave me…Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory… Jn 17.22,24 [cp. 2Tim 1.9]
How about when it says they were chosen, “BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD” [Eph 1.4]?
This is “glory, promises, grace” in prospect, looking ahead towards the coming Kingdom of God. When all these things will be. Not to say that for Jesus they were not fulfilled. He is the only one who has attained all of these things via his resurrection. Not in some “time before time”!
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Rom 8.29-30
Chuck,
You did not answer my question.
Jesus said He shared glory with the Father before the world was.
When did Jesus share in this glory? The verse is speaking of something in the past tense. I did not ask anything about a future event. Again I asked “when did” not “when will.”
Don
Your missing the point.
The subject of the verse is the “glory” which was with the Father. Not that the Son was literally with the Father in some “time before time”.
That glory existed in God’s plan, and in that sense Jesus already “had” it. We note that Jesus did not say “Give me back the glory which I had when I was alive with you before my birth.” This notion would have been completely foreign to Judaism. It is quite unnecessary and indeed wrong to read Gentile ideas into the text of Scripture when we can make good sense of them as they stand in their Jewish environment.
I gave you those other examples which you totally ignored it seems to make this point. The synoptic way of expressing the same idea is to talk of the Kingdom “prepared before the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34).
John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” – Don Johnson
Chuck says Jesus speaks by faith. I also reckon it was meant that everyone existed prior to creation in some form or another. The scripture does suggest sentience so the question then becomes could a pre-ordained entity be sentient, even in the mind of God? Well, of course, lest we think less of the infinite Mind! We must all have existed in the mind of God as sentient beings prior to creation and our physically existing – where Jesus was the perfect idea to fix the rest of us (of a degraded (innocent, but flawed), moldable variety) in the face of Satan (who seeks to take advantage of our defects to lead us away from God). Could that be it?
But I can’t figure out how these arguments will have any effect on how anyone will serve the Lord.
Juan G.
Your argumentation sounds Mormon-like. 🙂
BTW: there is no Bible verse which says that Jesus was going back to his Father or returning to his Father. John 13:3, 16:28 and 20:17 have been mistranslated in the NIV to give the impression that Jesus was going back to his Father (see KJV, RSV).
Thus, his “glory” had been prepared for him before the world came into existence (John 17:5; cp. Matt 6:1: future rewards are already secure), and he was chosen as God’s supreme human representative, the Messiah, long before Abraham (John 8:58).
It could be said that it was as the human Son of Man that he had “preexisted” in the divine decree [cp. the “Son of Man” figure in Dan 7; and 2nd human “lord/superior” in Ps 110.1].
As a result, Jesus was convinced that he must carry out God’s predetermined plan:
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer?…All things written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.(Luke 24:26, 44).
Chuck,
Thanks for taking the time with my post…there was one main area you didn’t respond to, I’ll repost what I am speaking of below:
We have hints throughout scripture, from the beginning. Such as in Genesis when the Lord said “let us make them in our image”. Us? Our? Equality with God is, in essence, God. He wouldn’t use such words as our and us if all weren’t God. I don’t understand why there is a need to fully understand this and deduce our rational to human logic. While the “Trinity” may be an incomplete assessment of exactly how God is, it is launching pad to understanding our approach to God and how He operates, at least in part.
Debbie — You said, Jesus went to the place called Sheol(another word is called Hades). Sheol contains 2 parts. Paradise and Hell.”
—————————————-
I say, Do you believe that Sheol(Hades) is not hell?
Only half of it. There was 2 sides.
Dave — You said, My question is would it be accurate to say there was salvation before Jesus?”
—————————————–
I say, the only full salvation that exists is through Yeshua/Jesus, even in the O.C. Let me try to explain.
The Tanach/Old Covenant & New Covenant is like a spiritual picture of Messiah laying down, the Tanach/O.C. can be like His legs, & the New Covenant is like everything above His legs. It is like He is laying throughout time, bring life to everyone that believes, and that will believe in Him. So all that believed of the Tanach/O.C. brethren during the time of Messiah preaching to them after they died, means they have always been inside of Him, but they were inside of Him in the legs part, and couldn’t go into the part above the legs until Messiah came and did what He did. Now those believers are a part of the body of Messiah in manifestation, as well as in an eternal understanding, because they believed in Messiah.
Debbie — May I please ask, what scr. you are referring to that He went to Sheol(Hades)?
Chuck — When the Messiah caused this scr. to happen. “51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matt. 27:51-53”
When He caused that scr. to happen do you really believe He then forced them to take their body back off, and go back to where they were at?
Travis,
Read and Learn.
Ephesians 4:8-10
8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Another one too Travis…
The most poignant evidence that Jesus did not go to the part reserved to the wicked of “hades” or “sheol” is the following text pronounced by Jesus Himself while hanging on the cross. He was addressing this promise to the thief on the cross who asked Him to remember him when He would come into His kingdom.
Luke 23:43 “Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
When Jesus died He went to the part of “hades” or “sheol” called “paradise” and so did that thief on the cross next to Him. He never went to the part reserved to the wicked.
To Don Johnson…
L O L
At death the body is called dead because nobody is home.
Debbie — Please study this link, and tell me what you think about it.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1192569770.html
Travis
…and God?! Thomas previously failed to understand how “the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father [Jn 14; cp. Paul’s understanding whereby “God was in Christ”]. He finally got it at Jn 20.28, recognizing both the “lord” Messiah and “the God” of them both!
Scripture does not say they were raised to eternal life only that they were raised from the dead, like Lazarus and others in the OT. If this is not correct, what does scripture mean when it calls Jesus “the firstborn from the dead…the firstfruits” of those who are currently dead [Col 1.18; Rev 1.5; 1Cor 15.20]?!
It seems to me that Jesus preached to the spirits imprisoned by sin at the time of Noah, speaking to them by the spirit of God which is his dwelling place, his heavenly home.
I wonder if it can said concerning a man who is truly a wise man, or was once truly a wise man by the biblical definition, that he has not heard the gospel. I wonder if such a statement could be true.
I suppose in a sense it could be said if he had never heard of Jesus, his sacrifice, the cross, his resurrection from the dead, and his day of judgment to come, and all the rest of the gospel.
Yet, if he walked his days on this earth in the fear of God and did receive things of the spirit of God, knowing of his way with God, of God’s way
that he had given him, can it really be said that he has never heard the gospel?
Could it really be said that he never heard from Jesus?
But how easily the way of God seemed to be hid, though it was in the earth.
It seems to me that so few would be saved without
the Lord Jesus coming in the flesh to save such as would be saved by him.
It seems to me that many who have lived and died have gone on to meet the Lord Jesus and I trust they who walked this earth by his spirit, recognized him when he was revealed to them.
And what of those who never knew that way, who never walked by the spirit of God? I trust that God who will have all men to be saved, such as shall be saved will know what to do and will do everything possible and legal to save them.
Chuck — He is the firstborn from the dead, because He had power to raise Himself up, everyone else couldn’t raise themselves up, but there will be others that have power to raise themselves up just like our Messiah, because that power is given to them also by the Spirit.
“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18”
“But each one in his own order: Messiah(Christ) the firstfruits, afterward those who are Messiah’s(Christ’s) at His coming. 1 Cor. 15:23”
Chuck,
When did you become one of the Jehovah Witnesses?
Are there any Jehovah Witnesses from the completion of the New Testament up to the time of Mr. Russell, who you could identify?
“I’m sorry but I do not believe you. I know in all my heart and soul what I said is the truth.” – Debbie Fraser
“I do not doubt your believes or feelings [Rom 10.2], but their just not based on what the scriptures have to say regarding the state of the dead.” – Chuck
What difference will it make? From the sidelines, I won’t worry about who’s right or wrong in this dispute.
Interesting thoughts, Travis. But I gotta say, when you write things like Yeshua/Jesus, Elohim/God, Tanach/O.C. it sure makes it difficult to read!
Travis
As Jn 10.18 says, Jesus willingly gave up his life for all those who would believe what he said about his God and Father. Note that it is a commandment he received [cp. John 12:49;14:31;15:10].
If Jesus was somehow God, did he really even die for you or me? Scripture is clear that “God raised Jesus from the dead” [Acts 2:32; Acts 3:15; 4:10; 10:40; 13:30; Acts 13:34, 37; 17:31; Romans 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:15; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 1:21; Ephesians 2:5].
Or do you really believe Jesus raised himself from the dead? If so, take note of Peter’s words and carefully reflect on them:
Don
I am not a JW. I do not believe in the literal preexistence of the Son, nor that he was an angel who metamorphosed into a human being, etc. I tend to go with scripture and believe that his “origin” [genesis, Mat 1.1,18-20] and “coming into existence [Luke 1.30-35] took place in the womb of a young Jewish virgin 2 000 years ago.
This is not something new btw. Many have shared my believes throughout the Milleniums and still do. As J.D.G. Dunn in his Christology in the Making notes:
Dave
And unscriptural when it comes to the NT books. If the writers of the NT had wanted to literally write YHWH, Yeshua etc., they would have. As they often write in other languages like Aramaic [Abba Father] etc.
It is not unscriptural to say different languages.
The reason I write that, that way, is because that is what the Yah/Lord is leading me to do, because I first go to the Jew, then to the goyim(nations, gentile), just as scripture talks about.
Chuck — The only begotten Son of El/God is also called Imanuel(El/God with us). Yeshua/Jesus said that when we see Him we see the Father.
“Yehoshua(Jesus) saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Yochanan/John 14:9”
As far as the resurrection we can see why Messiah could raise Himself up in this next scr.
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26”
Chuck,
Since you’re not real big on Christianity, who do you feel you are trying to serve?
Travis
Do you know what the word begotten means? If you do you will find that if your said to be begotten it does not mean you are somehow one and the same God.
As for Isa 7.14 [“God with us”]…
Perhaps you miss the point of such texts [or selective in your reading] but note that whatever the Son had or was or is depends on his God and Father.
A reference to the immortal life that, even before his death, the Son claims for himself, IN FAITH! Exactly the same way as we believers claim it for our own.
Don
Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.
Chuck,
Could you give us John 1:1 from the Bible you use and then tell us what you believe it to mean?
Don
Could you dispense with your condescending attitude?
PS: I am not JW! Nor part of [affiliated with] any other known ‘Christian’ denomination.
Travis, you said
I never said it was unscriptural….just hard to read, for me, in a practical sense. In fact I was just having fun.
Travis,
Woops…misunderstood your post and how it was a continuation from the previous post….
Either way, I was just having fun.
Chuck,
I understand you’re not a Christian. However, at the same time you seem to believe some of the Bible and disregard other portions. I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from. If you don’t want to answer my questions its OK. I’m just curious if these are just your thoughts or if you belong to some group who I’m not familiar with.
Don
What makes you think I am not a Christian? Because I do not adhere to traditional orthodoxy [immortal soul, trinity, etc.]?
I adhere to the following belief:
# There is one God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6), the one God of the creed of Israel affirmed by Jesus Christ (Mark 12:28ff). The Father is “the only true God” (John 17:3).
# There is one Lord Messiah, Jesus (1 Cor. 8:6), who was supernaturally conceived as the Son of God (Luke 1:35), and foreordained from the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20).
# The Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God extended through the risen Christ to believers (Ps. 51:11).
# The Bible, consisting of the Hebrew canon (Luke 24:44) and the Greek New Testament Scriptures, is the inspired and authoritative revelation of God (2 Tim. 3:16).
# In the atoning, substitutionary death of Jesus, his resurrection on the third day, and his ascension to the right hand of the Father (Ps. 110:1; Acts 2:34-36), where he is waiting until his enemies are subdued (Heb. 10:13).
# In the future visible return of Jesus Christ to raise to life the faithful dead (1 Cor. 15:23), establish the millennial Kingdom on earth (Rev. 20:1-6, etc.) and bring about the restoration of the earth promised by the prophets (Acts 1:6; 3:21; 26:6, 7).
# In the regenerating power of the Gospel message about the Kingdom (Matt. 13:19; Luke 8:12; John 6:63), enabling the believer to understand divine revelation and live a life of holiness.
# In baptism by immersion upon reception of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the things concerning Jesus (Acts 8:12; Luke 24:27).
# In the future resurrection of the saved of all the ages to administer the renewed earth with the Messiah in the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:2; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26; 3:21; 5:10).
# Christians ought never to take up arms and kill their enemies and fellow believers in other nations (Matt. 26:52; John 15:19; 18:36; 1 Pet. 2:9-11; 1 Chron. 22:8).
Hello Dave — Just wanted to let you know Chuck said it was.
Chuck — I really do agree with Don, are you going to answer his question.
Could you give us John 1:1 from the Bible you use and then tell us what you believe it to mean?
Chuck — I will soon explain more thoroughly my position, if the Yah/Lord wills. Chayn(grace, favor, mercy), chesed(mercy, kindness, love), and Shalom(peace, wholeness in all areas) to you, and all in Messiah Yehoshua/Jesus.
Dave — Brother it is ok, don’t feel bad, I have an intention to not judge anyone, I am a developing believer, and I still have much more room to grow. Plus I try to understand other people’s positions too, and I thought of your position, and sometimes I don’t use both, but the Lord desires for me to understand that I don’t have to cater to everyone, even though I must love everyone. I believe that service to the Lord is first, and foremost, before service to others, and myself, so I put effort to seek His kabod/glory, and not my own. Other times I do cater to the needs of other people without going away from the laws of Messiah/Christ. Part of the reason He has me do that, is because of the importance of the Torah of Moses.
Chuck,
Did Jesus have a physical body when He was resurrected or was it a spirtual body only?
Don
John 20.19-20; 24-27; 1Cor 15.35-49.
Hey Chuck,
When a Christian doesn’t believe in the trinity, is it wrong to worship the Holy Spirit or Jesus? I had a friend who was JW and he said they didn’t believe in the trinity and they didn’t worship Jesus, just God the Father.
To Chuck,
Question to you. Where is Elijah and Enoch? Seeing that they never died. Where did they go?
Dave
First of all, how can you worship someone’s “spirit”? Its not even scriptural.
Second, Jesus teaches us not only how, but who we should worship.
Lastly, Messiah is “worshiped” in the NT [i.e. book of Revelation] not as God, but as the Son of God/Lamb/Messiah.
Debbie
Heb. 11 does mention Enoch by name and says he was taken up to heaven without dying. That is, he was “transferred” in mortal life. But then it says “all these people [including prophets] died” without receiving God’s promises [that is, life eternal in the KOG].
Here’s a good study you might want to check out:
http://focusonthekingdom.org/Enoch.htm
I knew where Elijah and Enoch are. I was just testing you to see if you knew. They were raptured up into Heaven. They are with Jesus and all the other children of God.
Yeshua/Jesus said to pray to the Father in His name, so that means we also worship the Father, this can be done in different ways. We can do this by worshiping the Father in different ways, any of the Father can be worshiped, remember Jesus is another manifestation of the Father, and sometimes He goes back into the Father, likewise the Spirit is the Father too in another manifestation, all three are the Father. I will try to explain.
In order to develop and know more about the Lord we have to be humble, otherwise we will not be able to understand everything correctly. Please look at Daniel 7:13-14 which I wrote, the Son of man is Jesus the Messiah, and the Ancient of Days is The Father of all, including the Father of Jesus the Messiah, that is one reason why Yeshua/Jesus is said to be the Son of Man(God). “13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 7:13-14”
“28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor. 15:28″Notice the Son is made subject unto the Father. Remember also Messiah said that He has the Father of all as His Father. “Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; John 16:10″One meaning of Rev. 3:14 is Messiah is the first of creation, also He is more than that too, being that He is the Father in another form, in other words a different manifestation of the Father. “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev. 3:14” So since He is the first of creation, He is created by the Father, so the Father is over Him that is why the Messiah said, that His Father is His Father, and His El(God).
So then as the first of creation and the one who creates everything too, His is another manifestation of the Father, it is like the Father duplicated Himself, making the Son of Himself.Now also the Son also can go back into the Father, and become the Father in manifestation fully, because remember He sat down with the Father in His throne according to scr. Rev. 3:21. Also since the only Begotten Son of the Father is the Father manifesting Himself in another place, that means the Son is constantly in the Father, and the Father in the Son, because the Son came from Him, and is Him in another manifestation.
There are those who say that Christians who do not believe Jesus existed with God from eternity and yet believe in his virgin birth, really only believe he is a glorified man, and there are those who suppose that Trinitarians who say Jesus is God, deny his sonship at times.
There are those who hold to their belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and so strictly, that they seem to in no way allow for anyone to call him God.
There are also those who seem to think that when another calls Jesus the Son of God, that the term Son of God is simply a religious expression that holds no real value, or that the term is akin to something like a worm, a moth, or some other such thing.
Sometimes I think it will be those who never heard the gospel that will be the ones who will be saved.
Chuck,
It’s not scriptural to worship someone’s spirit? That’s is one difference between how we approach this. The scripture says “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him, worship in spirit and in truth”. So if God IS spirit, than how is it unscriptural?
Also, Jesus never stopped people from worshiping Him, Thomas and Mary, for example.
Lastly, in Philippians, it speaks of how Jesus humbles himself, considering equality with God not something to be grasped while on this earth. That doesn’t make Him less God, rather He came “in the likeness of sinful flesh” to show us how to live a life submitted to, led and empowered by His Spirit…that’s how he lived on this earth, as our example.
We have hints throughout scripture, from the beginning. Such as in Genesis when the Lord said “let us make them in our image”. Us? Our? Equality with God is, in essence, God. He wouldn’t use such words as our and us if all weren’t God. I don’t understand why there is a need to fully understand this and deduce our rational to human logic. While the “Trinity” may be an incomplete assessment of exactly how God is, it is launching pad to understanding our approach to God and how He operates, at least in part.
I am sure you have heard this question, but how do you connect the references to where God says of Himself He is one and He allows no one else to be worshiped. And that He never changes? How does that fit in with the worshiping of Jesus in revelation…or worshiping of Jesus in the NT? Or of how the Pharisees attempted to stone Him because He was making himself equal with God?
Dave
The text in question says “worship GOD”, not His spirit, some “third…distinct person existing within the One Godhead” composed of “the Father and the Son” — thus making up “the one [triune] God”.
Scripture tells us that although YHWH is described as a “spiritual Being”, He is also said to have this spirit within Him. This concept may be confusing for some since Jesus tells us that “God is spirit” [John 4.24]. So we must keep in mind that the spirit of God [an expression of His character, mind and Person] is the One and the same Person of God.
In other words, while “God is spirit”, God also has a spirit that is said to work and communicate to us [cp. John 14.15f.]. This is parallel to the Johannine saying that “God is love” [1 John 4.8] or “God is light” [1 John 1.5]. Again, these are qualities that are perfectly expressed and manifested in the one personal God.
The first thing to note in this passage is the personal quality that is given to “the spirit of man…who” is said to be “in him”. This example is in turn contrasted with that of “the Spirit of God” Who is the one “who knows and searches the deep things of God”. This makes sense only within the Hebraic thinking of the Bible writers who see both “the spirit” and “the man” [in this instance] as representative of the one whole, human person. The same can be said for God in this passage.
God’s spirit as an extension of His Person!
The same idea is also present in the NT when the Apostle Paul prays “that the God of peace Himself…keep your whole spirit and soul and body” holy until the coming of the lord Jesus Christ [1Thess 5.23].
True, as the human Messiah Jesus, not as God!
The question everyone should be asking themseleves is: what does the bible mean by the term “worship”?!
In the bible “worship” was offered to both God [YHWH] and human beings. This is reflected in the OT Hebrew words: sahah, (Gen 47.31; 1K 1.47; 1Ch 29.20; sahah, Gen 24:26; Gen 37:7; Jdg 7:15; Jos 23:7; Zep 2:11); and the Aramaic verb segeed, corresponding to the Hebrew sagad (Dan 2:46; Dan 3, 28; cf. Rom 12:1).
The NT uses the koine Greek proskuneo, for “angels” [Rev 19.10; 22.8], human beings [Mat 8.2; 18.26; 20.20; Acts 10.25] and false gods or idols [Act 7:43; Rev 13:8; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4].
The bible uses other words to indicate the exclusive “worship” and external or official divine service spoken in reference to the one God of Israel, YHWH. The OT uses the Aramaic palach, applied generally to Daniel’s vision [7.14, 27; cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24] and translated as “servants” of the Jewish Temple [Ezra 7.24]. In the Greek Septuagint [LXX] this is translated as latreuo [“divine” worship; Cp. latreai=service worship, Ex 3:12; 7:16; Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13], the version most in use during the 2nd Temple period.
This word is also used in the same context in the NT, reserved for God alone:
* in a religious sense to worship God (Mat 4:10; Luk 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Act 7:7; 24:14; 27:23; Rom 1:9; Phi 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Rev 22:3);
*used in an absolute sense (Act 26:7; Sept.: Deu 6:13; 10:12; Jos 24:15);
* “worshipping creatures [other] than the Creator”, in other words, assuming Deity (Rom 1:25; Sept.: Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13);
* particularly to the performing of the Levitical service (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10);
* of the celestial temple (Rev 7:15);
* to offer sacrifice, to worship (Heb 9: 9; 10:2; cf. Sept.: Ex 3:12; 7:16).
It is presumptuous to suggest that early Christians were under some kind of “obligation” to render the same type of worship to the Son as to the Father. This is in view of the conclusion by some modern scholars [N. T. Wright, Challenge of Jesus; Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ; JDG Dunn, The Theology of Paul] that a “stunning adaptation [“mutation”, Dunn] of the Jewish prayer known as the Shema [1Co 8.1-6; Phil 2.5-11; Gal 4.1-7; Col 1.15-20; cp. Deu 6.4] somehow took place.
This moving away from Jewish monotheism cannot be justified in view of Jesus’ own use of the Shema in the NT, where it remains consistent with the unchanging and unitarian monotheistic believe he taught.
You also write that the Trinity should be our “launching pad to understanding our approach to God and how He operates, at least in part.” Why not the above statement and all the others regarding the absolute unity of the one God and Father of the lord Messiah Jesus? This is all the creed we need!
I still find it amazing how many times people seem to side with the Pharisees when it comes to their continued misunderstanding [ignorance] of who Jesus is. The passage you allude to here proves the point whereby Jesus explains to them, from their own scriptures, how the word “god” has been used in a secondary sense for others apart from the one YHWH God. Yet Jesus still, although fully his right, does not take up the title for himself. Since his unique title of “THE Son of God” should’ve been more than enough to explain who he was:
Dave — You said, Lastly, in Philippians, it speaks of how Jesus humbles himself, considering equality with God not something to be grasped while on this earth.
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When I look at Phil. 2:6 it appears to say, …”not robbery thought to be equal with God” It appears He thought He could be equal with Eloheem/God, but that He chose to empty Himself, instead of taking a high position, He chose to take a low position.
shachah means (worship, to bow oneself down, to sink down, along with some other thoughts.)
You can look at this website to see scr.s that use the word.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7812
Make no mistake though El/God deserves the shachah before, and more than anyone else, and Yehoshua/Jesus the Messiah is Imanuel(El/God with us), also Isaiah says He is the Father.
Chuck — I have a rather serious question for you.
Do you believe Yeshua/Jesus is Yahuweh/Lord?
Travis
So Jesus is the God the Father now?
Jesus is the “lord” Messiah [adoni, Ps 110.1; kyrios, Luke 2.11] and not “LORD, Lord” God [YHWH, Deu 6.4; ho Kyrios, Rev. 4.8,11] God!
Chuck,
John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Question: If Jesus did not exist until conceived in the womb of Mary, how did He share glory with the Father before the world was?
Don
What about believers, when and how did they get it?
How about when it says they were chosen, “BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD” [Eph 1.4]?
This is “glory, promises, grace” in prospect, looking ahead towards the coming Kingdom of God. When all these things will be. Not to say that for Jesus they were not fulfilled. He is the only one who has attained all of these things via his resurrection. Not in some “time before time”!
Chuck,
You did not answer my question.
Jesus said He shared glory with the Father before the world was.
When did Jesus share in this glory? The verse is speaking of something in the past tense. I did not ask anything about a future event. Again I asked “when did” not “when will.”
Don
Your missing the point.
The subject of the verse is the “glory” which was with the Father. Not that the Son was literally with the Father in some “time before time”.
That glory existed in God’s plan, and in that sense Jesus already “had” it. We note that Jesus did not say “Give me back the glory which I had when I was alive with you before my birth.” This notion would have been completely foreign to Judaism. It is quite unnecessary and indeed wrong to read Gentile ideas into the text of Scripture when we can make good sense of them as they stand in their Jewish environment.
I gave you those other examples which you totally ignored it seems to make this point. The synoptic way of expressing the same idea is to talk of the Kingdom “prepared before the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34).
John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” – Don Johnson
Chuck says Jesus speaks by faith. I also reckon it was meant that everyone existed prior to creation in some form or another. The scripture does suggest sentience so the question then becomes could a pre-ordained entity be sentient, even in the mind of God? Well, of course, lest we think less of the infinite Mind! We must all have existed in the mind of God as sentient beings prior to creation and our physically existing – where Jesus was the perfect idea to fix the rest of us (of a degraded (innocent, but flawed), moldable variety) in the face of Satan (who seeks to take advantage of our defects to lead us away from God). Could that be it?
But I can’t figure out how these arguments will have any effect on how anyone will serve the Lord.
Juan G.
Your argumentation sounds Mormon-like. 🙂
BTW: there is no Bible verse which says that Jesus was going back to his Father or returning to his Father. John 13:3, 16:28 and 20:17 have been mistranslated in the NIV to give the impression that Jesus was going back to his Father (see KJV, RSV).
Thus, his “glory” had been prepared for him before the world came into existence (John 17:5; cp. Matt 6:1: future rewards are already secure), and he was chosen as God’s supreme human representative, the Messiah, long before Abraham (John 8:58).
It could be said that it was as the human Son of Man that he had “preexisted” in the divine decree [cp. the “Son of Man” figure in Dan 7; and 2nd human “lord/superior” in Ps 110.1].
As a result, Jesus was convinced that he must carry out God’s predetermined plan:
Chuck,
Thanks for taking the time with my post…there was one main area you didn’t respond to, I’ll repost what I am speaking of below: