424 Comments
  1. Bo

    Constantine made legal what was already being practiced by churches across the Roman empire.

    Furthermore, you have to explain what Luke, Paul and John talk about when they mention Sunday as “the Lord’s day” [Acts 20.7; 1Cor 16.2; Rev 1.10]:

    1 Cor. 16:2 first day of every week. A Jewish expression for Sunday, and similar to the phrase used in the Gospels to describe the day of the week on which Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1). This shows that Christians gathered for worship on Sunday, not Saturday (cf. Acts 20:7; Rev. 1:10), in order to acknowledge the crucial importance of Christ’s resurrection. ESV Study Bible

    BTW, are you a Messianic Jew?

  2. Bo

    I have read many an article regarding this contentious issue. But the truth of the matter is this. Nowhere are we commanded in the NT scriptures to congregate on a specific day or time. However, scripture is clear that the early Apostolic churches gathered on a Sunday. There is ample scrptural evidence for that.

    But it is a matter of choice if you want to continue such a tradition or not. I really do not see how it is wrong to do or not do it either way.

    From your silence I will take it you are a Messianic Jew and the real issue here would be your keeping of Sabbath and Jewish dietary laws. That is another matter entirely.

    Peace out!

  3. Chuck,

    “The Lord’s Day” is only mentioned once in the “New Testament.”

    Revelation 1
    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord‘s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    But the “day of the Lord is mentioned many times in the “Old Testament” and the “New.”

    Isaiah 2
    12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
    Isaiah 13
    6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    Isaiah 13
    9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    Isaiah 34
    8 For it is the day of the LORD‘S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
    Jeremiah 46
    10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
    Lamentations 2
    22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD‘S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.
    Ezekiel 13
    5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
    Ezekiel 30:
    3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
    Joel 1:
    15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
    Joel 2
    1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    Joel 2:
    11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
    Joel 2:
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    Joel 3:
    14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
    Amos 5:
    18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
    Amos 5:
    20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
    Obadiah 1:
    15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
    Zephaniah 1
    7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
    Zephaniah 1
    8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD‘S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
    Zephaniah 1
    14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    Zephaniah 1
    18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD‘S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
    Zephaniah 2
    2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD‘S anger come upon you.
    Zephaniah 2
    3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD‘S anger.
    Zechariah 14
    1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    Acts 2
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    1 Corinthians 5
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    2 Corinthians 1
    14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    1 Thessalonians 5
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    2 Peter 3
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Being that John describes in detail the same things that the servants of YHWH before him described as the “the day of the LORD”, it would seem that this one instance of “The lord’s day” (Literally-the day belonging to the lord) is the same as “the day of the Lord.” It is constructed of the same Greek words in essence, only kurios is in the possessive revelation. If you do not like this explanation, then consider that the only day that Y’Shua said he was the lord of was the Sabbath. If you do not like this then you will have to argue with the historians that have researched this matter, because the “New Testament” is silent as to a command to keep the first day of the week holy.

    You list a few verses, none of which command or show that the first believers met on Sunday for worship.

    1 Corinthians 16
    2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

    No Assembly mentioned here, as they each were to hold back some of what they had earned the previous week and save it until Paul came.

    Acts 20
    7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    Here we have Paul staying up late after the Sabbath ended, so it was the first day of the week, intending to leave in the morning (Sunday) instead of assembling with the believers.

    This is all I have time for now. Please look for the forum where this is supposed to be discussed as we are in violation of the website rules. I will not answer anymore posts on this subject unless they relate the the posted topics somehow.

    So, have you read that link yet?

    Shalom

  4. Bo

    You list a few verses, none of which command or show that the first believers met on Sunday for worship.

    I am glad we agree, there is no NT commandment in regards to a specific time of day to congregate on. Although, as most commentators agree, it seems the early Church did it on the first day of the Jewish calendar, Sunday!

  5. Chuck,

    Don’t kid yourself…we do not agree on much. Funny how most commentators do not have names. It is kind of like “they say” whoever they is. Most commentators just copy what the ones before them wrote…no footnotes, no ancient sources, etc. I gave a link that is historical research. It comes from a nondenominational site. And you are dead wrong, the early believers did not meet on Sundays. If you would read the link you just might learn a little history…or you might rather continue to quote unknown commentators that have not done their homework. Birds of a feather flock together.

    There are no NT commands as to many things that Christians believe. Some come form the OT and some from men. Sunday comes from men, making the commandment of YHWH of no effect.

    Shalom

  6. Bo

    And you are dead wrong, the early believers did not meet on Sundays. If you would read the link you just might learn a little history…

    I am reading the hisrotical record of the NT Bo. Sunday is not the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Nor is it true that Constantine initiated the notion of worship on Sunday! The day of the resurrection, as a day on which Christians gathered, was instituted long before Constantine, as any history of Christianity will tell us. We know this from the extant letters of believers who lived long before Constantine.

    Luke has given a rather straightforward account of the day of Jesus’ resurrection. He lets us know, while dealing with a different subject, his method of counting days. He reports Jesus as saying, “I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach my goal” (Luke 13:32). The reckoning is inclusive: “today, tomorrow and the third day.” Luke had already recorded Jesus’ statement about his own resurrection: “The Son of Man must suffer…and be killed and be raised up on the third day” (Luke 9:22). “On the third day he will rise again” (Luke 18:33). He must be crucified and “on the third day rise again” (Luke 24:7). In harmony with these plain statements Luke notes that Jesus was put to rest in the tomb on preparation day and that his friends rested on the Sabbath day according to the commandment — a reference to Saturday. Then on the first day of the week, Sunday, they came to the tomb (Luke 23:54-24:1).

    Consistent with this account Luke completes the story by telling us that the disciples who met Jesus on Sunday “hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21). Their hopes were fading because “today [Sunday] is the third day since these things happened.” The things in question were the crucifixion of Jesus: Jesus had said to them, “What things?” (Luke 24:19). They replied “…how our rulers delivered him up to death and crucified him” (Luke 24:20). Then they say: “Today is the third day since these things [the crucifixion] happened” (Luke 24:21). Sunday is of course the third day since Friday. Luke’s calculation follows his earlier statement in Luke 13:32 (above): “Today, tomorrow and the third day.” In reverse: Today [Sunday], yesterday and the third day since Sunday = Friday.

    None of this would have been problematic, if Bible readers like you take note of the very Jewish idiom involved in the expression “three days and three nights” found in Matthew 12:40. To us English speakers of the 21st century that expression would mean a period longer than from Friday evening to Sunday morning. But what then of the rabbinical statement (around 100 AD)? “A day and a night constitute a season of time, 24 hours. And a part of such a season of 24 hours is to be counted as a whole season” (Rabbi Eliezer ben Azaryah).[See Strack Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud und Midrash, Vol. 1, p. 649.]

    Strack Billerbeck add that a part of a month or a year is reckoned also as a whole month or year. Similarly a 12-hour season of time can mean a part of that period. If then we read Matthew 12:40 in its Jewish context it does not mean three full days and nights. Thus we avoid contradicting Luke.

  7. Chuck,

    It doesn’t matter which day of the week Messiah rose on. It is on YHWH’s appointed time that He rose. He never told us to commemorate His resurrection. He said to commemorate His death till he comes. There is no reason to go into parts of days equaling days and such. It does not matter if He rose on Shabbat or Wednesday or Monday. There is no command to make Sunday anything and the NT does not indicate that believers gathered on that day as some sort of remembrance of the resurrection. The Early Church writings show that believers did not keep Sunday as a special day. Here are two examples:

    “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.”—The Ecclesiastical History of Socrates Scholasticus, bk. 5, ch. 22.

    “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries.”—The Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen, bk. 7, ch. 19.

    Shalom

  8. Bo

    There is no command to make Sunday anything and the NT does not indicate that believers gathered on that day as some sort of remembrance of the resurrection.

    Yes, we agree, there is no such command.

    But we disagree regarding the Sunday, since what else can “first day of the week” mean but Sunday?!

  9. Chuck,

    I think first day of the week means Sunday. I do not get your point.

    I think that the road to Emmaus happened on Sunday.

    I think Messiah ascended to His Father on Sunday.

    I think the Spirit was poured out on Sunday.

    I do not think that the early believers met on Sunday.

    I do not think that Sabbath is has been changed by YHWH.

    I do not think that something happening on Sunday that makes Sunday important.

    First fruits and Pentecost were happening on Sunday for thousands of years. Messiah fulfilled these appointed times of YHWH on the exact day.

    I do not think that “the day of the LORD” or “the LORD’s day” means sunday.

    Shalom

  10. Chuck — You said, “Then on the first day of the week, Sunday, they came to the tomb (Luke 23:54-24:1).
    ————————–
    I say, I do believe that Messiah was resurrected on the first day of the week, but that could have been right when the first day started, in other words what we know understand to be sundown on Saturday, or it could have been in the morning on Sunday. I don’t really know for sure.

  11. I do think that several of the first believers often participated in going to the Synagogue on Shabbath, and they also chose to meet on the first day of the week, because Messiah was resurrected on the first day of the week, the recognized that was a great occurance, and likely wanted to celebrate that.

    One thing to understand is that the first day doesn’t have to be something that is evil as some individuals think, also it doesn’t have to be less than the Shabbath either. The idea is the the first day is a new beginning, a new creation, that causes new blessings, for example, Shavuot(Pentecost), always lands on the first day of the week.
    Each of the seven days is a blessing in different ways, the seventh, and eighth(first) are extra special blessings.
    One thing to understand is Messiah rested on Shabbath, through dying, then after Shabbath He was resurrected, born again.

  12. Travis Mansfield,

    Do you have any historical or scriptural reason to “think that several of the first believers…chose to meet on the first day of the week, because Messiah was resurrected on the first day of the week”?

    Have you found the scripture that shows that there were many reasons for divorce in the the Torah? I am still waiting.

    Shalom

  13. Pretty clearly Bo wishes to use the Sinai material as the tolerance standard template for any and all religious devotional decision making.
    Pretty clearly the NT authors grant a different criteria for an even higher standard.

  14. The NT does not contradict the OT. Paul, John and James, in many passages clearly spell out that the transgression of YHWH’s law is still sin. In the New covenant, the law is supposed to be written on our hearts. If one does not love YHWH’s law, where does that put him? If someone does not want to obey YHWH’s law, how renewed is his mind?

    The criteria has always been a circumcised heart. A circumcised heart is obedient to YHWH’s law.

    Deuteronomy 10
    16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
    17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Deuteronomy 30
    6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

    Jeremiah 4
    4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

    A circumcised heart obeys YHWH law.

    Romans 2
    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Is Abraham our father, if we cast YHWH’s law aside?

    John 8
    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham‘s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    Genesis 26
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Romans 4
    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    James 2
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Real faith produces works. Abraham’s faith caused him to obey YHWH in all areas. Does your faith produce obedience to YHWH’s law? Or do you think that keeping YHWH’s commandments is grievous? Will you remain a transgressor of the law? Will you remain a self-deceived hearer only, or will you allow YHWH to circumcise your heart so that you can be an obedient doer of the word?

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Does anyone want a truly circumcised heart?

    Romans 2
    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

    Shalom

  15. Jabez,

    Here are a couple of very short comics you should read.

    http://www.wholebible.com/rev_abolishes.htm

    http://www.wholebible.com/all_things.htm

    http://www.wholebible.com/bible_ad.htm

    http://www.wholebible.com/seeing_clearly.htm

    But Probably you will not like these very much.

    We should go back to the Mosaic covenant forum with this dialogue, as I think we are off topic. I will post this post there just after this so that you will be able to get there easily.

    Shalom

  16. Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Bo,

    You are doing despite to, treating with contempt, the Spirit of Grace, it’s that simple. You despise the “grace and truth” that came by way of Messiah, and you cannot fathom that the Lord has “leveled the playing field” for everyone. I’m beginning to think that you despise Gentiles for being admitted into the fold of Messiah because we are not and never have been burdened by the things your forefathers were. Would God be just if He didn’t use the same standard for everyone? That standard is “faith in Messiah”, “repentence of sins” and “Grace and Mercy” in remembering our sins no more! When you operate from the standard of the commandments in Torah, there is a remembrance of sins. Not that I remember, but, that God will remember! You “have trodden under foot the Son of God and His free gift and have done despite to the Spirit of Grace”. Those without the law, who never lived under the law, were never given the law, are saved by the same Grace as those who “were under” the law and who “were given” the law. Which parts of the law would you keep, now that Messiah has atoned for the curse inherent in the law? By your own reasoning would you not be required to keep “all of the law” in order to be justified in the eyes of the Lord? When, clearly the Word says, that “by the deeds of the law, shall no one be justified.” And then, you make the Lord a liar when you say you can do this, as He declared that none of us can, which is why He went to the Cross, to overthrow the power of our adversary in justly condemning us for breaking even the least of the things contained in the law. And why do we dismiss any of the laws? Why not stone people, which the Lord refused to do when “tempted” by the Pharisees and doctors of the law who brought the woman caught in the “very act” of adultery? If the Lord was to keep the law of Moses, He should have done so! So, in fact, the Lord broke the law of Moses. What truth was He pointing out to them? That there are laws which supercede the letter of the law. You are picking and choosing according to “your” standards while ignoring the rest. Jesus also said, “sell all that you own and give to the poor”. Have you done this yet? Well then, you are not keeping His commandments. And the verse you pointed out, “..but, truth and grace came by Jesus Christ.” Taking the “but” out doesn’t change the meaning one iota, but, you can’t see that, because you are blinded by the same proclamations which were not true of the Jews in first century Galilee any more than they are true today. That Grace, Mercy and the Truth came by way of Jesus of Nazareth, not by Moses. Did Moses show mercy to anyone? No. The law was never meant to provide mercy, in fact, just the opposite. It was meant to meet out judgment and to point out how far removed we are from God’s perfect standard. So, mercy, which was not given by the law, was given by the Son, to whom was delivered all things by the Father.

    I fear for you, Bo. You have put your hand to the plow, yet, you are looking back… You have turned as did Lot’s wife, looking to what was left behind. You use the same verses I would use in dissuading you to rest in the work accomplished by Messiah. The difference is, you don’t “hear” what the verses you quote are saying. You walk on boldly in persuing righteousness by the works of the law, rather than in the work finished by Messiah, which I have pointed out to you before. None of us can claim righteousness in, or, of ourselves. The only righteousness “any of us” possess is “through” Him, and is bestowed upon us by “faith” in His work and in Him alone. You say you agree with this, but, then you negate it by clinging to the ABC’s you were given in first grade by Moses. The law, as scripture says was our “schoolmaster” until such time as our Professor of the Truth of the Kingdom came to broaden our understanding. Why did Paul tell the Pharisees and the very learned in all the Law of Moses, that they needed to be taught anew, and to begin with milk as little babies drink? Because the message was brand new. They couldn’t ingest the knowledge recently imparted without beginning again. You say you possess no righteousness apart from Him, but, then you try to persue it anyway. You cannot serve two completely different doctrines at the same time. Either it is Grace by Faith, or, it is Grace by works. Why would we require Grace, if we could arrive at Salvation by works. Yes, I am familiar with the verse: “show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith with works, for faith without works is dead.” Surely you don’t believe he was speaking of the law of Moses, do you? What good works are mentioned in the law of Moses that would apply to what is said there? Clearly all of the Epistles are an exposition of the truth that came “after the work” on the Cross was completed. The Lord, in His earlier discourses, spoke the things He did “before” He went to the Cross. When He declared “there is none righteous, there is none that does good, there is none that understands, no, not one”, He knew then, while we were clothed with this sinful flesh and under condemnation of the curse that we could not of ourselves achieve righteousness, and even so, He died for us. If righteousness came by keeping the law, then there was no need at all for Jesus to go to the Cross. He could have just as easily have come and said, “Keep the law of Moses and you will be saved”. And then, He could have gone back to Heaven. Mission accomplished! “I told them, Father, to keep the law of Moses and they would be saved.” Show me where He said that. You can’t; because He never said it. When He said, “If you love me, keep My Commandments”, He could just have easily said, “If you love me, keep the commandments given to you by Moses.” But, He never did. He said, “Search the scriptures, for in them you THINK you have eternal life, (but you won’t find it, nor can you), for the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms all speak of Me”. (as the only way to salvation and eternal life) “God is not the author of confusion”, yet you are making Him out to be just that. There is no confusion concerning the law of liberty and the law of Moses. What are we free from? What are we saved from? Is it not the curse inherent in the law of Moses?! Our adversary would absolutely love for you to persue your own righteousness by the law, because then he can “rightly hold you his prisoner in condemnation” for not continuing “to do all that is written in the law”. And, furthermore, our adversay knows full well the most important commandment contained in said law, is this: ” a prophet shall the Lord, your God, raise up for you, him shall you hear in all He says to you, and whoever will not “hear” that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people”. So, all that is said by this “Prophet” is more important than all that was said by that prophet. (Moses)

    You are elevating Moses to the same level as the Son of God. Moses was a “type” of Messiah, for sure, but, remember that Moses did not cross over and enter the promised land. He rested on the other side of promise. The old covenant, in a type, died with Moses. Joshua bringing the children of Israel “through the waters of the Jordan” is one step closer to the promised land and to Messiah. Just as Moses bringing the children of Israel “through the Red Sea” was a type of bringing us all out of slavery, so too, Messiah has brought us one step closer to fulfillment of entry into the New Jerusalem, which is our true destination and inheritance and our final place of rest. Until that is fulfilled we are to rest in Him. We no longer wander in the wilderness of this world, but, we rest in Messiah, until He comes to redeem His inheritance and bring us into the “true promised land”.

    If you’ve not already done so, I would recommend that you enquire of Dr. Brown, or, other more knowlegeable persons and obtain some reading materials on the types and shadows and antitypes given throughout the entire Bible. This should greatly expand your understanding of just how much was fulfilled in Messiah, Jesus. It was not only the sacrificial lamb that He represented, but, much, much more than that.

    And I believe you will say that you have much learning already, as if evidenced by your posts, but, I say this because I see that you will not be persuaded except you sincerely endeavor to proceed with an open mind and allow the truth to light on you, if your heart is open to it.

    God bless you, Bo, and I pray you will forgive me any harsh words spoken previously. My emotions caused my mouth to speak before I allowed the spirit to calm my heart. I apologize to you.

  17. Sheila,

    You wrote:
    “I’ll no longer answer your comments here. If you want to have a discourse go to the appropriate blog. Although, I don’t see where there is anymore reasoning to be presented that was not already covered.”

    Did you read the link? Do you see that Messiah upheld the law and would have been violating it to do any stoning? Do you see that the witnesses were false witnesses if they did not testify against the man also? Do you see that the the witnesses had to be the first to carry out the punishment?

    Shalom

  18. Sheila,

    Would you answer Big Tex any differently than you would me? Do you resist what I say because I say it? Just wondering.

    Shalom

  19. Sheila,

    You wrote:
    “You are elevating Moses to the same level as the Son of God. Moses was a “type” of Messiah, for sure, but, remember that Moses did not cross over and enter the promised land. He rested on the other side of promise. The old covenant, in a type, died with Moses. Joshua bringing the children of Israel “through the waters of the Jordan” is one step closer to the promised land and to Messiah. Just as Moses bringing the children of Israel “through the Red Sea” was a type of bringing us all out of slavery, so too, Messiah has brought us one step closer to fulfillment of entry into the New Jerusalem, which is our true destination and inheritance and our final place of rest. Until that is fulfilled we are to rest in Him. We no longer wander in the wilderness of this world, but, we rest in Messiah, until He comes to redeem His inheritance and bring us into the “true promised land”. ”

    So it is interesting that we have the book of Deuteronomy specifying that the ones entering the promised land must also obey the same laws as those that didn’t…wouldn’t you say? The analogy is a good one. Those that disobeyed Moses were not allowed in. Those that followed Joshua got in and were still required to obey the teachings of Torah. Joshua was to be sure and spend much time in the Torah. The people followed YHWH in keeping Torah until those that were elders with Joshua died. The same thing happened to the church. They obeyed Torah after gaining salvation. They obeyed until the apostles died…those that overlived the real Joshua.

    Deuteronomy 34
    9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Joshua 1
    6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
    7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
    8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success…
    16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that thou commandest us we will do, and whithersoever thou sendest us, we will go.
    17 According as we hearkened unto Moses in all things, so will we hearken unto thee: only the LORD thy God be with thee, as he was with Moses.
    18 Whosoever he be that doth rebel against thy commandment, and will not hearken unto thy words in all that thou commandest him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.

    Joshua 24
    31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

    Shalom

  20. If the woman caught in the very act of adultery was brought forth, surely those who witnessed it could have produced the man as well, and the Lord could have insisted on this, He, as well as the others, knowing full well who it was. If the man had been brought too, would the Lord still have said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone?” If He was intent on carrying out the letter of the law, He would have insisted on producing him. Would it have been different if both were present? Would someone without sin, other than the Lord, been able to cast a stone?

    Or, are you saying the accusers only sin was one of duplicity?

  21. Bo,

    “So it is interesting that we have the book of Deuteronomy specifying that the ones entering the promised land must also obey the same laws as those that didn’t…wouldn’t you say?”

    And if the Torah had not been handed down from generation to generation to the coming of Messiah, how would we recognize Him? How would we know that it was He who fulfilled the words of Moses and of the Prophets and of the Psalms? They were chosen to keep the Word alive so that all would recognize Him as the Hope of Israel, as the One who lifted the veil from the face of Moses, as the One who fulfilled the way into the Holy of Holies, which is now open to all who believe. Otherwise, we are like the congregation in the wilderness, who could not commune directly with God as the meeting place between God and man was only for the High Priest. Now that the veil was torn from top to bottom, we all commune with God by the Holy Spirit given to all who believe. And not just once a year, but, whenever we wish.

    Tell me, please, which of the 613 (?) commandments do you now keep? And where are the instances of Jesus doing all of them to be found?
    I truly want to know.

  22. The type and shadow that you put forth would not be complete if we do not take it to the law of Moses being kept after entering the promised land. If we have followed the real Joshua into the real promised land, we should keep the law also. Salvation does not eliminate the law…it causes us to keep it out of gratitude and love.

  23. There may be many posts before I respond, because I cannot respond quickly, so, if I am behind, please overlook it. It seems as soon as I finish posting, I see where there has been three or so already up there!

    Here are some things to consider along the same line as I have posted much earlier in our discourse, that Messiah came to expound on the “weightier” matters of the law, which were sorely neglected, and which were not enforced; those being Mercy and Judgement and Faith. These He said aught to have been done without leaving off the lesser laws of tithes and offerings. Our offerings, now, are those of praise and thanksgiving. He further expounds on the necessary things in this discourse.

    Where in the law of Moses does it say anything like this: “BUT, I SAY TO YOU..”

    Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

    Mat 5:22 But I SAY unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    Mat 5:28 But I SAY unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    Mat 5:32 But I SAY unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
    Mat 5:34 But I SAY unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
    Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
    Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
    Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
    Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    Mat 5:39 But I SAY unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.
    Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
    Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    Mat 5:44 But I SAY unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    It is the Lord’s part to fulfill all that is written and that every jot and tittle will find completion in His work, not our own. It is enough to emulate Him and strive daily to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and to care for the widow’s and the fatherless, and to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. If those are written in the law of Moses, then, I suppose I am keeping it.

  24. The Land of Israel is given to the decendents of Israel, not to the Gentile nations. My inheritance is in the New Jerusalem, as I am a child of Abraham by faith, and promise. Abraham is the father of the children of faith, that the promises which God made to him might be fulfilled.

    Those who hold to the covenant at Sinai, are representative of Hagar, who will not inherit the promises, but, are cast out. Read again Galatians.

    Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?

    Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.

    Gal 4:23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.

    Gal 4:24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.

    Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

    Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

    Gal 4:27 For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married.”

    Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

    Gal 4:29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.

    Gal 4:30 But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”

    Gal 4:31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

    And if Christ has made me free, I am indeed free.

  25. Messiah freed no one to sin (transgress the law). That is called licentiousness.

    Jude 1
    4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Willful sin is what does despite to the Spirit of grace. Sin is the transgression of the law. Willful sin in Moses’ time was due the death penalty. Now that we have been given the power to obey, we deserve worse for casting YHWH’s law aside.

    Hebrews 10
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Grace is supposed to cause us to stop sinning. It teaches us to stop sinning. Messiah’s sacrifice is supposed to bring an end to our law breaking (lawlessness), not just cover our sins.

    Titus 2
    11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
    12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
    13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
    14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
    15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

    These next verses say what they say. It would be wise to just agree and stop transgressing the law.

    Romans
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    We walk after the flesh when we find ourselves not keeping the righteousness of the law.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Did you read that link about the woman caught in adultery yet? The article was written by a regular Christian that does not keep the law. You make a grave mistake to think that Messiah broke the law or taught men to do so.

    Shalom

  26. Messiah told the woman to go an sin no more. He did not say that she could now break YHWH’s law now that she was forgiven.

  27. Bo,

    My friend, you miss the whole point of Christ and His atoning work and fall into the early Church’s Judaizing, and you seem to be hell-bent on dragging others into bondage with you. We are struggling against this damning doctrine of the law, and we will remain free in Christ (it is for freedom that He set us free).

    I will not read this article (though I do appreciate and have read others you have posted) because it is immaterial. It is immaterial first because of the fact that Jesus “always does what is pleasing to [His] Father” no matter what.
    Secondly, I am a little concerned that this portion of text is so being wielded by both sides of this discussion. Here’s an idea: read what the textual notes at the bottom of the page say about these verses. The odds that this portion of text goes back to the original manuscripts is slim indeed, so it’s not a great practice to base any sort of doctrine on it (or any one text – the Bible repeats the important things, after all).

    How about: why don’t you respond to my points in post #304 that you never got around to.
    I’m really curious how you can maintain your position in light of the evidence presented there, and particularly the point about Abraham and Isaac.

  28. Sheila, Tom, etc. Thank you for taking the time to interact here and elsewhere, and stand with the Messiah.

    Sheil, my sister, taking nothing personal except what is stated to be so permits the detachment of the love of our Lord.

    All, prayer is now in order, for we all have talked about one another, and must cover such with the intercession, and present day ministry of Jesus. Let it be so.

  29. My mistake. When I edit my word pad document that I write my draft on, sometimes I edit it incorrectly, which I am usually very careful not to do, however, in this case I made a major error. When I wrote, “So, in fact, the Lord broke the law of Moses”, I originally had written, “So, in fact, [it seems] the Lord broke the law of Moses, but, did He?”

    It certainly changes the entire statement, which made me wonder where you were going when you said, “Which ones do you think that He broke? How could he be the spotless lamb if He broke even the smallest?” And Tex, I couldn’t understand what you were talking about either, until I discovered my error.

    So, you see how important it is for me to proofread my posts before submitting them and the error that occurs when I don’t! That’s why it takes me so long to compose anything in response and apparently the time is well spent, as I am humbled to say the least.

    I’ve apologized for responding the first time on the other blog out of anger. I should never have done that and I ask for your forgiveness, Bo.

    No, I’ve not read the link as yet, and my evening is drawing to a close. Let’s agree to disagree and to continue to hold each other up in love, as we are all a part of the Body of Messiah in which we all fit together as one, each supplying our own unique part.

    Thanks for reminding me, Jabez.

    Shalom Bo, and Tex, blessings to you both.

    Blessing Tom.

  30. Sheila,

    I want to thank you so much for post 375. You have put into words in a very simple yet profound way the truth. It was uncompromising yet compassionate.

    I know you say you feel bad for “writing in anger”, and I definitely don’t want to dissuade you from your convictions, but…do you remember the times the Lord was angry when He walked the earth? Do you remember with whom and why He was angry?

    Either way, I just wanted to let you know how much of an encouragement that post was. I’m going to copy/paste it to my desktop for future reading anytime I feel I am being tempted off the “path of Life”. 🙂

  31. It is written, “be angry and do not sin”. Later it is written, “put away such things as these…anger”. We avoid anger so as not to have it develop into resentment, vengance, or murder (the taking of a life can occur in heart, as well as action), where, it could give opportunity for the enemy.

    At the same time what seems to be anger from the point of observation can be righteous indignation, a God given emotional response of sudden flooding feeling, protection, vengance, and human out of control assigning wrath. It is written that the anger of man does not bring about the righteousness of God. Yes, Jesus was angry, He also was God, so which was it?

  32. Well written, Jabez. I would say, in this specific scenario, that the anger was not birthed out of selfishness. Either way, I couldn’t agree more that anger and man never mix well. Like you mentioned, when not dealt with “before the sun goes down”, it produces many evil things.

    However, I think this is clearly not the case in this instance as it was apologized for immediately.

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