424 Comments
  1. Bo,

    How is eating from the that tree us deciding what is right and wrong? In the most basic idea that we are deciding to go against God’s command that makes sense. But I believe that is an overly simplistic answer. What I mean is the partaking of that fruit DOES give the knowledge of good and evil. And God decreed it to be that if we, as humans, eat from that tree we cannot have eternal life(live forever) for we “shall become like Him”. Adam/Eve were deceived into thinking they can be like God BY eating it. And the truth is that they WOULD have become like God unless He allowed death to enter. Doesn’t that in and of itself say there is something much more powerful in this “fruit”? This is why the Law always brings death…God won’t allow it. It’s the clear unfolding of scripture that someone needed to fulfill it or we would never get our eternal life back!

    Ok…we have been through this a few times, no need to get back on the merry-go-round:-)

    BUT…you had nothing to say yet about my other comments that were new. I’ll repost specifically what I am referring to below.

    To clarify, I am not saying you are staunchly advocating we are saved by the law. What I AM saying, is that it is the only logical end to your argument if you follow it through. It comes down to our adherence to the “requirements” of the Law. You keep posting scriptures from the perspective that this is indeed true, yet you then say we aren’t saved by our adherence to it. I am sincerely wondering how this “bridge” is connected.

    So here are the specific comments I mentioned above that I am looking for clarity on:

    “So basically, everything falls back on us. It is our obligation to earn salvation from the very second after we make Him Lord of our life. We must follow the law/pre-law commands and exceed the very law we are told by Paul we are unable to keep. So are our consciouses really now under even a BIGGER curse because the Law is written there?
    Also you wrote:
    “These all existed before the levitical system. They are not done away with even if the levitical system vanishes for they are separate from it.”
    Circumcision was also before the levitical system. The only logical end to your point is we all must be circumcised(pre-law command). And we know how much Paul had to say about circumcision. How do you reconcile that?
    The problem is, there is no way around the fact that you have to answer “yes”, that you must earn/retain your salvation through these works of the law according to your theology. There’s just no way around it. You can say it’s the Holy Spirit empowering us to do this but am I a new creation or not? Why would a new creation, holy in God’s sight need to be taken back to the law? ”

    CAN SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO HIGHLIGHT PREVIOUS CONVERSATION IN BLACK WHEN REPOSTING? THANKS!

  2. “Patience(enduring unto the end) is wrapped up in obedient, commandment keeping love brought about by true faith in Y’Shua.” – Bo

    The keeping of non-moral laws is easy – schedules, clothes, and the like. Obedience is really tested by the challenging and very consequential moral laws, am I right?

    Bo – do you have a community of like-minded folk or are you a solo survivor? Which makes me wonder if John the Baptist wore tassels out in the desert on the camel hair.

  3. Dave,

    Sure, it’s just a text command.

    Step-by-step, just type:

    shift+comma(lesserthansign) then enter the word blockquote and then close it with shift+period(greaterthansign)

    before the words you want highlighted and type

    shift+comma(lesserthansign) then /blockquote (don’t forget the slash) and then close it with shift+period(greaterthansign)

    after the words you want highlighted.

    Like so.

  4. Bo,

    In the posts above you keep asserting that YHWH does not change (true enough), and you use this as proof of your claims that we must keep the Mosaic Law. The way I read you, the logic goes something like this:

    A) YHWH does not change
    B) YHWH gives commands

    Therefore,
    YHWH’s commands must be unchanging as YHWH is unchanging. In other words, since YHWH does not change, His commands to men do not either. To this hypothesis you add:

    C) The Mosaic laws are God’s commands

    Therefore,
    The Mosaic laws must be followed today, since (1) they are God’s commands, (2) YHWH is unchanging, so (3) YHWH’s commands are unchanging and the Mosaic law stands over us today.

    I hope I captured what you are saying as accurately as possible (I know it was a bit redundant, but I need to surround the issue from all sides here).

    Now, while I agree with points A, B, and C above, I do not agree with the conclusion I perceive you have derived from those truths: that YHWH’s commands are “eternal” in the sense of perpetual application as you assert.

    Consider the following:
    1) As I have stated before, YHWH commanded the Israelites to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan. If we apply your logic, we must act now! Arm the H-Bombs! Ready the infantry! Alert the President, for we must undertake a genocidal mission to the middle east!

    Or… were the commands given to a specific people at a specific time for a specific purpose? And therefore not binding on us today?

    2) YHWH commanded Jonah to travel to Nineveh – should we back our bags and book a plane?

    Or… was the command given to a specific person at a specific time for a specific purpose? And therefore not binding on us today?

    3) YHWH allowed brothers and sisters to be married when the world was fresh and new – but later He prohibited such behavior.

    Would this be an example of YHWH’s commands… changing?

    And finally, and most obviously:

    4) Consider Abraham. He was commanded (ordered, demanded of, charged, instructed, directed, mandated) to kill his son Isaac. God said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Yet this never happened. Why…? Did Abraham disobey God’s command (which you would say is obviously unchanging, since God does not change)?

    Bo, I can just picture the scene on the mountain if Abraham took up your position.

    God: “Abraham, Abraham! Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him.”

    Abraham: “I have to! You said to sacrifice him as a burnt offering, and that I must do since we both know that your commands do not change!”

    Sort of reminds me of the time Peter rebuked Jesus for saying He was to go to the cross to die. And what was Jesus’ response?

    “Get behind me, Satan! For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men!

    I can only imagine that God’s response to Abraham in the above scenario would have been the same.

  5. Dave,

    It is the difference between good works being the fruit of salvation or the cause of salvation. We agree that the latter will fail. A truly saved person/new creature wants to do righteous and holy things. He does not want to sin. The law tells us what things YHWH considers righteous and holy things. It also tells us that breaking the law is sin.

    The law is the thermometer telling us what temperature our love is. (lawlessness=love waxed cold) It is a mirror telling us that we have spots and wrinkles that need tending.

    Man, left to himself, with his deceitful heart, will make up things that are to his liking and not even know he is doing it…because his heart is deceiving him. Deceit does not work if it isn’t tricky. So, if you are deceived by your heart, you won’t know it. James says that a man that looks into YHWH’s law and goes away saying, “That spot is not really there, because mustard stains are no longer spots.” is tricking himself. If he says, “That wrinkle is hidden by the glasses of grace.” he is wearing a blindfold and not glasses.

    When we find that we are falling short of the mark, we are supposed to pull the string back farther on our bow, not move the target closer or decide that targets are way overrated. The target is a good thing. It tells us how well we are doing in our quest of becoming an expert archer. You can practice shooting an arrow all day long, and become no better if you never aim at anything.

    Now you will say that “Christ is our target.” Very true, in the sense that we should be conformed into His image. But having come to Messiah is not the high calling or Paul would not have been pressing on years later. Accepting His sacrifice is not maturity, or there is no need of the ministry gifts. The high calling of YHWH in Messiah is the opposite of establishing a righteousness of our own. The goal of the stature of the fullness of Messiah is the opposite of being spiritually immature. So the Goal is very high, the gate is straight and the way is narrow.

    We know from Paul’s own mouth that he didn’t break the law before or after his conversion. Before his conversion he was trying to gain righteous status by keeping it. (Of course, he was involved in thousands of intricacies too.) After his conversion he was keeping it because it is still the right thing to do. So you can keep the law in order to establish your own righteousness or you can keep it because you are righteous. Righteous people do righteous things, according to John.

    The law is good if you use it lawfully. Use it to gain righteous status, and you are not using it correctly. Use it as a mirror, to inform your conscience, or to gain understanding in YHWH’s definitions of righteousness and holiness and you are using it well. That is why Paul could tell Timothy that the law was good for doctrine and instruction in righteous living that the man of YHWH would be “MATURE, COMPLETELY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.

    So Paul was on the narrow path, pressing on toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling of YHWH in Messiah. He was aiming at being great in the kingdom. Y’Shua said,
    “whosoever shall do and teach them (all the commandments), the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” You can do and teach all the commandments and not get into heaven, though.

    Matthew 5
    20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Paul once had this sort of self righteousness for which the Pharisees are famous. He counted it as dung but kept on keeping the commandments and teaching men so after he entered the straight gate. Righteous acts to obtain salvation is dung. Righteous acts after salvation are supposed to be the norm. Salvation is a path, not just an entrance gate. Once we are in, we are supposed to walk in paths of righteousness for His names sake. We are supposed to endure until the end of the path that leads to the tree of life. YHWH’s commandments keep us on the path to the tree of life. Y’Shua’s sacrifice allows us to enter the gate. YHWH’s Spirit empowers us to fulfill the law that we could not fulfill before. YHWH’s grace allows us to get in when we are not perfect, but it also teaches us to stop sinning (breaking the law).

    Continued below.

  6. Continued from above.

    Dave,

    Hebrews 10
    26 For if we sin (continue breaking the law) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin (continue to break the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    1 John 3
    1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    If we think we are the sons of YHWH and do not, or cannot, stop breaking the law, it is a manifestation of who sons we really are. We cannot continue to break the law (sin) if we are born of YHWH. We ought to be purifying ourselves as He is pure if we are really His. Y’Shua was manifested to take away our sins and destroy the works of the devil. Those that continue to sin (break the law) after coming to the knowledge of the truth are children of the devil.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    The carnal mind is proof that we are the devil’s children. When we cannot agree with YHWH’s law we are “non of His (YHWH’s).” If His seed remains in us we cannot continue to break the law (sin). Do not be deceived, he who does righteousness is righteous.

    If one is deceived he will not be able to agree with this. He will make up a different definition of righteousness. He will be tricking himself. He will keep breaking the law and think that he is not sinning. We will go his way, forgetting what manner of man he is. Mustard stains will not be stains and wrinkles will not be visible to him. He will not purify himself.

    The bride will make herself ready.

    Revelation 19
    7 Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
    for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
    8 it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—
    for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

    Shalom

  7. Juan G.,

    You wrote:
    “The keeping of non-moral laws is easy – schedules, clothes, and the like. Obedience is really tested by the challenging and very consequential moral laws, am I right?”

    If they are so easy why do you not keep them? Faith is truly tested when we are challenged to obey things we do not want to obey or that we do not think makes sense.

    The principle is the same as with David refusing to offer something to YHWH that didn’t cost him anything.

    Go ahead and ask your boss for every Sabbath off and the new moons and the 7 annual feast days. It will cost you something…maybe even your job. At the very least it will cost you about 70 days a year. Do you really think that not committing adultery is difficult? Do you really think that it is hard to not steal? Do you find it close to impossible to honor your father?

    Well when you break the Sabbath commandments, you steal time that belongs to YHWH, you dishonor your Heavenly Father, and you commit spiritual adultery by bowing to some other elohim. That elohim may be yourself or another man’s doctrine. It could be the elohim of convenience or reason. But when you choose to disobey YHWH you are bowing to an idol of some sort. You are putting something other than Him in first place.

    Whoever is faithful in the small things is faithful in that which is great. Whoever is unfaithful in the small things is unfaithful in that which is great.

    The little things are the true test. The big things are made up of very many small things. The 2 greatest commandments of love for YHWH and our neighbors are defined by hundreds of small things. The law of YHWH is perfect. It gives Timothy and us everything we need to be instructed in righteous and holy living. It completely furnishes us unto good works.

    You Wrote:
    “Bo – do you have a community of like-minded folk or are you a solo survivor? Which makes me wonder if John the Baptist wore tassels out in the desert on the camel hair.”

    There are quite a few like-minded folks out there. Some of them live close by. Some of them, we only see during YHWH’s yearly appointed times. There are thousands we have never seen.

    I can’t think of one reason why John would not wear tassels. Why would he think of doing otherwise? Y’Shua wore them and many were healed by touching them. If anybody didn’t need to have a physical reminder to keep YHWH’s commandments it was our Messiah. But I expect that he did it to fulfill all righteousness…not so we could ignore it, but so that we would be encouraged by His perfect example.

    I expect that you have been baptized and take communion form time to time. These seem like pretty small things to me. Why would we want to do these and leave other things undone?

    Matthew 23
    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    The problem is not with doing small things, it is with not doing all things…to fulfill all righteousness…by the power of the Spirit…enabling us to do so.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Shalom

  8. Bo,

    Do you really think that not committing adultery is difficult? Do you really think that it is hard to not steal? Do you find it close to impossible to honor your father?

    Yes to all 3 counts!
    My male eyes make it very difficult indeed to avoid committing adultery as I look at a woman with lust in my eyes. Jesus calls us to a higher standard than the old written code.

  9. Bo,

    I expect that you have been baptized and take communion form time to time. These seem like pretty small things to me. Why would we want to do these and leave other things undone?

    !!!!!

    Small things?!!! Bo, my friend, I had no idea! I am, quite frankly, appalled beyond all words at this statement!

    The Lord’s Supper and Baptism were instituted by our Lord Himself during His earthly sojurn, yet you say that they are small in comparison to those things instituted by Moses, a mere man?

    The Lord’s Supper and Baptism were commanded of all gentiles, unlike the law of Moses! Even if you believe the law of Moses is required of the Gentiles (as you do), you still have to see that the Lord’s supper and Baptism are of first and foremost importance in the New Covenant!

    The Lord’s Supper is the blood of the New Covenant, the very blood of God! Yet by saying that it is a small thing to take part in this feast and that the greater thing is to take part in the law of Moses you say that the blood of the Old Covenant, the blood of an animal, is of greater importance!

    You insult the sacrifice of Jesus here, Bo, and in so doing you deny plainly the grace of the New Covenant. This statement you have made about these being “small things” (clearly implying your already obvious position that you believe there are “greater things” in the law of Moses) is not a light matter.

    I urge you, do not make light the Grace of God, given in His blood shed for us. Do not place the law of Moses in a place of higher importance than our Lord’s own flesh and blood, spirit and water.

    The danger is paramount. And it’s real.

  10. Bo,

    You wrote:

    If one is deceived he will not be able to agree with this. He will make up a different definition of righteousness. He will be tricking himself. He will keep breaking the law and think that he is not sinning. We will go his way, forgetting what manner of man he is. Mustard stains will not be stains and wrinkles will not be visible to him. He will not purify himself.

    So you are confirming what I said last post. If we don’t adhere to the Mosaic Law we are doomed…no matter how it is posted, or how kindly worded, the end result is the same.

    All of the scriptures you have quoted are “filtered” through your approach to retaining salvation. I see the NT descriptive of our new life in Christ. Pressing into Him, being conformed to His image, growing up in Christ. The Law is no longer our “schoolmaster”. It has served it’s purpose for whom it was for. Christ fulfilled this, therefore we who cling to and identify with Him in His death and resurrection are no longer bound to this old way.

    His word is “sharp and active” and separates soul and spirit…the profain from the precious. That is it’s job. Without this accurate assessment it just becomes our condemning judge instead of life giving “words of life”. Your theory is rooted in the ability of man. You are saying it is by the Holy Spirit, but then dump all the weight and responsibility back on man.

    I am not saying you aren’t saved by my beliefs, but you are saying I am not saved(will not make it in narrow gate) according to yours. Yes, you are not directly saying that but your conclusion is one and the same, to all who disagree with you.
    I am not saying this is your intent. But it is the inevitable consequence of what you believe.

    Say a child would read through the Bible…they would see how things have changed from the old way of the law to the new of the Spirit. You have depth of explanation for the many points brought against your belief concerning the Law here on this thread, but a simple reading, without a preconceived approach proves its not complicated. It’s quite simple…

    Surrender to the Lordship of Christ and trust in His sacrifice for your sins. You now have the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth and teach you all things. Walk in the fruit that the Holy Spirit’s producing and you will not walk in your old manner of life.

    BTW, There are many specific points you didn’t address in my previous post still. I am referring to what I reposted in #301

  11. Just practicing this

    Step-by-step, just type:

    shift+comma(lesserthansign) then enter the word blockquote and then close it with shift+period(greaterthansign)

    before the words you want highlighted and type

    shift+comma(lesserthansign) then /blockquote (don’t forget the slash) and then close it with shift+period(greaterthansign)

    after the words you want highlighted.

  12. I hope this will work.

    I hope it will only put the above statement in the quote. I did shift+comma, then typed blockquote, then shift+period, then I typed the “I hope this will work.” Then I did it again shift+comma, then blockquote, then shift+period.

  13. Tom,

    In context, my statements about water baptism and communion are nothing to flip out about. You see they are just shadows of the real. There is no real blood that we are drinking and no flesh we are eating.

    John 6
    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
    59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? {offend: or, scandalize, or, cause you to stumble}
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Baptism does not cleanse the filth of the flesh away. Baptism does not save us. It is a picture of dying to sin and being raised to newness of life. If baptism saves us, we are saved by works and the thief on the cross was lied to.

    1 Peter 3
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    The answer of a good conscience is why we obey YHWH by being baptized. The answer of a good conscience is why we should obey YHWH in the other scriptural symbols of salvation. These are called the “Feasts of YHWH.” They are not Jewish feasts. They are YHWH’s appointed times. Even if you think that the spring feasts have been fulfilled, you should know that the fall feasts have not. They are (not were) shadows of things to come, not shadows of things gone by. A survey of scripture shows that YHWH was expected to show up on His appointed times long before the rules about when and how they are to be kept were written down by Moses. But I would guess that you are unaware of this.

    The point being made to Juan G. was that these things (Baptism and communion) are what he would call rituals that have nothing to do with morality. There are many things that do not have to do with morality that YHWH asks us to do as pictures or shadows. There are many that we concoct ourselves…usually to our own detriment. There are things YHWH asks us to do that are to set us apart from the world and to Him. Sabbath is one of them.

    Now I am guessing that you celebrate Xmass and Astarte Sunday (Easter). If you do, these commandments and doctrines of men have meaning to you because they supposedly represent things concerning Messiah. These have symbols and rites that are purely pagan and have nothing to do with the scriptural festivals that paint a YHWH designed picture of of Y’Shua and His bride. These appointed times of YHWH tell the story of how YHWH has dealt with us in past times and how He will deal with us in the future. So many “believers” accept the replacements that men have invented and reject the commandments of YHWH.

    All shadows, even the ones that YHWH set up, are less important than the things they represent. They are just rituals, as Juan would put it, but I see that you think that YHWH ordained rituals are important as long as they are the ones that you keep. These should not be left undone…baptism, Sabbath, feast of tabernacles, the Lords supper along with the rest of the Passover festival,etc. The moral things matter more in the sense that they bring harm to others if left undone, but these scriptural symbols are important simply because they represent spiritual things. Faithful in the little things is what is what this is called.

    So you can be, “appalled beyond all words at this statement!” if you want to take the statement out of context. You can lie there in shock thinking about how the “Lord’s Supper” is part of the Passover meal and is not meant to be done at other times if you want, also. Just because no one told you this before does not make it wrong. Just because you have been following the commandments men invented (or rather copied from paganism) in your communion service for your whole Christian life, does not make it correct.

    You so easily forget that Moses did not make things up. He heard from YHWH face to face. They are not Moses’s commandments, they are YHWH’s. As a matter of fact, it was the preincarnate word of YHWH that spoke to him. So your statement, “The Lord’s Supper and Baptism were instituted by our Lord Himself during His earthly sojourn, yet you say that they are small in comparison to those things instituted by Moses, a mere man?” has no true meaning for two reasons. The Son of YHWH spoke them both and I was not comparing them in the first place.

    You also wrote:
    “Even if you believe the law of Moses is required of the Gentiles (as you do), you still have to see that the Lord’s supper and Baptism are of first and foremost importance in the New Covenant!”

    I do not judge what is first and foremost. It is not my place to do so. If YHWH spoke the words, I accept them as worthy of obeying. The “New Covenant” is is YHWH’s law being written on our hearts instead of stone or scrolls. Same law. We are not smart enough to pick out the first and foremost. But Y’Shua told us what it was…(Deuteronomy 6:4-5) “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” We would think that breaking the least of the commandments would be acceptable, but the least are part of the greatest two. They hang right there with them. They define what the greatest intend.

    Y’Shua told us to not to stop doing or teaching the least of the commandments. Which ever one you or I think is least is still important enough to YHWH that His Son had to spill His blood for us breaking it. If you want to use grace as an excuse to keep breaking them, you will not be the first one. Paul said not to do that. So I won’t, by YHWH’s real empowering grace.

    Shalom

  14. Bo,

    A quick reply:

    Your assertions of paganism above are quite hard to back up. If you can provide me with reputable sources that prove your statements about paganism creeping into the Church in communion, Easter, and Christmas it would be helpful.

    I’m quite a student of history, and whatever you may have heard, the evidence for this paganism claim on all three counts is spotty, at absolute best. However, I say again, if you can provide reputable sources for the claim it would be better than simply stating a tired old myth.

    Hope to finish later.

  15. Y’Shua told us to not to stop doing or teaching the least of the commandments. Which ever one you or I think is least is still important enough to YHWH that His Son had to spill His blood for us breaking it

    This is simply out of context and not true. First he didn’t tell us not to stop. He said “whoever doesn’t…and teaches others to do the same…” Also, It was spoken to people still under the old covenant BEFORE His fulfillment of the Law. He would have been breaking the law not to fully abide by it until He fulfilled it. Again, there are so many contradictions to this theory in the NT scriptures. Not to mention the explanation of Acts 15, which is just a theory to support your view.

    I know this time it wasn’t addressed to me. But isn’t this one of the issues at the core of some of the disagreements with you? I am very interested to hear your thoughts on the bottom half of #302, if/when you have time.

    These are side issues, I’m not saying they are not important. But it seems like you are skirting the heart of the issue at hand…salvation/retaining of salvation/entering heaven only if we obey and follow Mosaic Law/pre-law commands from God. I have heard you say repeatedly we are not saved by works/law but everything else you are saying clearly seems to be “saying” exactly that.

  16. Dave,

    Sorry for the mess up. I was thinking faster than I can type. I didn’t mean to say something that was inaccurate. Let me try again.

    Y’Shua told whosoever (whosoever whosoever happens to be),in essence, to keep doing and teaching all the commandments (even the least commandments) or they (Whosoever they are) would not be great in the kingdom. So, I think that He did want us (whosoever us is) to do it. If it is not a command, it is a wish…His will. I thought I was speaking to someone that wanted to be great in the kingdom. If we (whosoever we are) want to be great in the kingdom, it is an imperative.

    If He wasn’t speaking to us (Whosoever us is), then there is no point to anything He said…it is only for those of His time and we (whosoever we are) are left out.

    Whosoever means whosoever to me, otherwise whosoever can’t mean whosoever when it comes to those that believe in Him having everlasting life, etc. It would only bee for those under the “Old covenant.”

    Practically everything that Y’Shua said was to “people still under the old covenant.” As a matter of fact, we (whosoever we are) all were guilty of sin (transgression of the “old covenant law”) and so were “under” the “old covenant” before we (whosoever we are) entered the “new covenant.”

    We (whosoever we are) only have a very few words recorded of our Messiah’s after the resurrection…one of which was for the disciples to, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (whosoever all nations is),… to observe all things whatsoever (whatsoever whatsoever means) I have commanded you (whosoever you is).”

    I do not think that He would give a private command for the Jewish people of His time and relegate the rest of us (Whosoever us is) to being least in the kingdom. I thought that the disciples were to shout from the house tops those things He said in secret.

    I do not know if that fixes it for you or not, but I think you get my point.

    Your concept of fulfilling, ends up being the same as nullifying or destroying for all practical purposes, at least for us (Whosoever us is). 🙂

    Shalom

  17. Bo,

    Ummm…not sure if that was laden with sarcasm or not? If so, I want you to know I wasn’t being sarcastic with you…just making a point. Or maybe you were just having fun? It’s hard to tell in text the true meaning of a post sometimes….

    But no, it’s not at all destroying…and not nullifying in the sense you are speaking of. It’s our contract with it as believers and the Old Covenant approach that is nullified. Abolishment means as though it never existed or to throw it away as trash…fulfillment is just that, fulfillment. So “whoever” He was talking to, it is clear that it was to a people before all He came to fulfill was fulfilled.

    IT’S CLEAR WE WON’T SEE EYE TO EYE ON THIS MATTER…..we’ve gone over it a few times and that’s ok, so can we move on? But…

    I ask again, would you please consider responding to what I(and from what I can tell, most all of the posters on this site) feel are flawed views that you hold to. I am not in anyway saying they all agree with my specific points of view, but in a general “core” sense of the subject, I believe we agree. For clarification, I am not mentioning “other posters” as ammunition in my defense, but rather the confirmation of many witnesses. And these “witnesses” have large and varying points of view on many things, yet to this we stand in basic agreement. I consider this a very important issue. Our core understanding of how we are to please God with our lives is no light matter. Theological debate in the vein of calvanism vs. armeneism, or is it ok to drink alcohol as believers, or other such things are just another debate. But what we are speaking of here comes down to our salvation and acceptance of the Lord on judgement day…again, no light matter. I also am aware that just because a group of people believe one way doesn’t automatically make you wrong in your view. But isn’t it worth exploring all the more on your part if that be the case? We are all believers here. I mean we are spending our free time on a website discussing the things of God. Doesn’t that show a desire on all of our parts for truth?

    So in light of that probably over-stated last paragraph:-), I submit to highlighted below the points I am speaking of.

    “So basically, everything falls back on us. It is our obligation to earn salvation from the very second after we make Him Lord of our life. We must follow the law/pre-law commands and exceed the very law we are told by Paul we are unable to keep. So are our we really now under even a BIGGER curse because the Law is written on our hearts?
    Also you wrote:
    “These all existed before the levitical system. They are not done away with even if the levitical system vanishes for they are separate from it.”
    Circumcision was also before the levitical system. The only logical end to your point is we all must be circumcised(pre-law command). And we know how much Paul had to say about circumcision. How do you reconcile that?
    The problem is, there is no way around the fact that you have to answer “yes”, that you must earn/retain your salvation through these works of the law according to your theology. There’s just no way around it. You can say it’s the Holy Spirit empowering us to do this but am I a new creation or not? Why would a new creation, holy in God’s sight need to be taken back to the law? ”

  18. Dave,

    Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    All of the above “Whosoever’s” are spoken during the sermon on the mount to the same people. Am I to “believe” that all of them are not for me and only for Jews or am I supposed to pick and choose which ones I think are true for me also? Or am I to “do” all of these sayings of Messiah so that my house will be built on a rock?

    Many “believers” throw out Matthew 5:32 because they are remarried or want to be. “It just can’t be true,” they say. Many “believers” throw our 5:39 and hit the guy back. Now 7:24 is one that all “believers” want to accept, until they realize that 5:19 is one of “these sayings of Mine.” Then they say that 5:19 is spoken to a specific people or that it was spoken before Y’Shua fulfilled the law, so it doesn’t count.

    Here are more “Whosoever’s”:

    Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
    Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
    Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Most “believers” will go along with these “whosoever’s” above even though they were spoken to Jews before Y’Shua’s death, burial and resurrection.

    Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    The one above is accepted by almost all “believers” unless it is taken into account that He is speaking to Jews before His death, burial and resurrection, because these people would have known that the Torah is the will of His Father. So this one is accepted by all “believers,” as long as they can change the will of the Father to mean what is “believable” to them.

    Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    The above are “believable” to “believers” for the most part, but the next one has many “believers” reinterpreting or qualifying it to make it “believable.”

    To be continued below.

  19. Continued from above.

    Dave,

    Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    These next ones are good stuff to most “believers” to “believe,” as long as it is not taken too literally. But there are few that actually jump for the chance to “do” what it says.

    Matthew 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
    Matthew 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

    All the above “whosoever’s” are spoken by our Messiah before his death, burial and resurrection. All are spoken to the Jewish people of His day. All are recorded by Matthew. He was probably writing this gospel so as to facilitate what Y’Shua spoke just before he ascended, which was to Jews, but after His death, burial and resurrection.

    Matthew 28
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    The “whosoever’s” above do not come in the form of commandments. So are we to “believe,” as “believers,” that our Messiah didn’t want us to “do” these things? Are we to “believe” that they are optional? Are we to “believe” that they are not for us to “believe”? Or should we “believe’ them but not “do” them, because that would somehow be salvation by works?

    The end of the sermon on the mount goes like this:

    Matthew 7
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

    Many “believers” will say, “Lord, Lord,” but will be disallowed into the kingdom because they did not do the Father’s will. They will have all kinds of good works and spiritual experiences to point to. But they will lack one thing…they did not accept the rule of YHWH in their lives. They abandoned Torah keeping. They forgot to do and teach all of Torah as Y’Shua said in the beginning of the sermon on the mount. They began working lawlessness. They were deceived into becoming hearers of the word instead of doing what it said. They would not, or could not, bring forth the good fruit of scriptural righteousness and holiness. Their minds could not be subject to the law of YHHW. Great was the fall of their houses. They were “believers” being sent away from the kingdom of heaven.

    Now the “doers” where quite elated except for when they thought about how they used to try to convince the “believers” that their faith was dead without the good works that YHWH had before ordained that they should walk in. Then they were sad…but Y’Shua wiped away their tears.

    Good trees bring forth good fruit. Saved people bring forth works that show that they have been saved. Righteous people do righteousness. Sin is the transgression of the law and transgression of the law is unrighteousness. Lawlessness is the sign of cold love. Obedience is the sign of true love.

    There are many more “Whosoever’s” in the scripture. It would be good to do them.

    Shalom

  20. Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    Bo — What were the different reasons in the Torah that people could divorce? The answer is there were many reasons according to Torah that divorce could happen, but here we see Messiah saying their is only one reason divorce is permitted in the New Covenant.

  21. Travis Mansfield,

    Please tell me the many reasons in Torah for divorce. And then tell me the reasons in Torah that would allow remarriage. Please include scripture references.

    Shalom

  22. Bo,

    There is a misunderstanding here. I was simply trying to say that His comments about fulfilling the Law lead up to “whosoever breaks these commands….”and this was in light of what He just said…UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED. What is all? It’s the Law…exactly in context of what He is saying…that He didn’t come to abolish it but fulfill it for us. After making that point He goes into “adding” to the law by his comments on murder=hate, lust=adultery, etc. This reinforces OUR NEED OF HIM TO FULFILL IT because we all, as humans, have these things within that arise from time to time.

    Again, I have stated my reasons to believe multiple times as have you. I DO believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. You DON’T. So let’s put this to rest, ok?

    But this is the 4th time, I believe, that I have asked you to comment on what I have reposted several times. I have to assume you either don’t have an answer, or, for some reason, you don’t want to answer, or possibly you missed it 4 times.

  23. Bo,

    Just to back up Dave’s points that your final righteousness seems is clearly the law, not Christ:

    Many “believers” will say, “Lord, Lord,” but will be disallowed into the kingdom because they did not do the Father’s will. They will have all kinds of good works and spiritual experiences to point to. But they will lack one thing…they did not accept the rule of YHWH in their lives. They abandoned Torah keeping. … They were “believers” being sent away from the kingdom of heaven.”
    -Bo, post 324

    Again you assert that the Mosaic law is a prerequisite for salvation. This is the place we disagree on – not whether believers do good works (they do), but whether those good works are the letter of the Mosaic law.

    Let me ask you: do you sin? Ever? Do you fail to keep the law? Ever?

  24. Bo,

    Ok. I must have not read your second post. You stated your beliefs, that we, all here on this sight(and most believers beyond) that do not agree with your Torah keeping perspective will not gain access into heaven because none of us keep the Torah(that I know of anyway). If I am wrong in my interpretation of your statements here please correct me.

    IF I AM RIGHT in my assessment of your perspective, than there is no other way to say it but you are speaking a false gospel. A gospel trusting in “the arm of the flesh” and good works to obtain eternal life.

    A good tree DOES bear good fruit. We are good trees, if we truly believe, bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit against which, there is no law. If we are bearing His fruit, then we are keeping His commands, because a bad tree doesn’t bear good fruit.

  25. Dave,

    I will answer your post. There just seems to be more important issues that you bring up. Actually, in many ways I already have answered. But let me deal with your latest post first.

    Messiah’s statement that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees leads into the “you have heard it said by them of old time” statements. Messiah is dealing with the false teaching of the Pharisees. He is bringing the Torah to bear on what the people have heard the pharisees say. He shows how the Pharisees have not taught the Torah correctly. They were going to be the least in the kingdom at best, for they had failed to do and teach it all. At worst they would not be allowed into the kingdom because their righteousness was based on commandments of men…self righteousness.

    Y’Shua was not adding to the Torah as you suppose. He was showing the correct interpretation of Torah…no loop holes. He used the Ten commandments in relation to each other to explain the Torah.

    You see, number 10 (no coveting/lusting) is one that we all break before we break the others. Number 10 leads us toward physically breaking the others. So when we break number 10 in regard to number 7 we are adulterers in heart. Nothing new here. He is stating the results of breaking number 10 in regard to 7.

    He returns the people to Deuteronomy 24 and tells them to do what it says in regard to divorce and remarriage. Torah does not allow divorce for any cause. It allows it for only one reason. The same reason that Y’Shua gives. Taking this to its conclusion shows that the second marriage is not really a marriage in YHWH’s eyes unless the Torah is followed. To Him it is adultery.

    The scribes and Pharisees taught to take revenge by misapplying the “eye for eye” commandments in Torah. Messiah sets them straight on this. Torah does not allow revenge.

    The Torah does not say to hate ones enemies. The scribes and Pharisees did.

    When Messiah was speaking of Torah, He said, “It is written.” When He is referring to what the rabbis said about it, He said, “You have heard it said.” What they said was not the same as what was written, by the time they got done interpreting it and adding their commandments of men. Y’Shua deals with this over and over in His ministry, but He always upholds Torah.

    It is a commandment of men that makes Torah out to be not applicable. Messiah taught all of it and did it.

    Where do you get the idea that Messiah “fulfilled the law for us”? Where do you get the idea that we can break Torah on purpose with impunity?

    Sin is still sin. It has the same definition it always did. Paul rebukes the idea that we can purposely break the law, now that we are under grace.

    Romans 6
    1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    He says that we should obey unto righteousness. He says that if we sin (break the law) we get death. Messiah says the same in Matthew 7.

    Romans 3
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    This says “remission of sins that are past.” Salvation comes when we repent of our past sins. There is no offering/sacrifice for intentional sin. This is the way it always was.

    Hebrews 10
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Messiah did not come to “fulfill” the law so that we could sin. He fulfilled it so that we would have a propitiation for our past sins and for the ones that we confess and repent from. He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we confess our sins. Sin is the transgression of the law.

    It goes like this. I sin…transgress the law. I confess and repent for breaking the law. He forgives me and cleanses me from unrighteousness. We know the cleansing comes when we stop doing the sin (transgressing the law).

    If we do not think that breaking the law is sin, we will not confess and repent for breaking it. Y’Shua won’t be able to cleanse us from something that we do not think is dirty. So we will have deceived ourselves into thinking that we are living righteously because we do not accept YHWH’s definition of sin. So we will not do and teach what Messiah told us would make us great in the kingdom. Then the next generation of believers will follow down the same false road.

    They will think that fulfill means destroy for all practical purposes. They will continue to sin, thinking that grace covers it. They will twist Paul’s letters to be advocating lawlessness. Then they will not believe 1 John either. They will probably want to throw out James too. That is what Martin Luther wanted to do, because he twisted Paul too.

    Shalom

  26. “If they are so easy why do you not keep them? Faith is truly tested when we are challenged to obey things we do not want to obey or that we do not think makes sense.” – Bo

    I don’t keep them because I’m ignorant of them, just like, I’d guess, everyone else I have ever known. I’ve even never heard of keeping them until just recently. I imagine keeping these schedules would be akin to “keeping” Christmas and birthdays (not difficult). I could keep them, but I don’t know why they would be a big deal.

    “Go ahead and ask your boss for every Sabbath off and the new moons and the 7 annual feast days. It will cost you something…maybe even your job. At the very least it will cost you about 70 days a year.” – Bo

    I have a very flexible schedule being self-employed/unemployed. It wouldn’t cost me much if anything. I remember God every day as it is.

    “Do you really think that not committing adultery is difficult? Do you really think that it is hard to not steal? Do you find it close to impossible to honor your father?” – Bo

    Of course there is much more to moral behavior than these few things. Lust can be a challenge if faced with immodest women when my guard is down. Stealing and coveting is usually easy for me to resist. Honoring my father is difficult because my father is not honorable – I tend to avoid him. That is a current challenge in my life – should I criticize my father or should I allow him to direct himself as usual? It is very hard to speak openly to him – as it seems he lies to himself. He also does not seem to recognize any of the good I do (unless it benefits him directly) and he doesn’t take hints. I have a hard time looking at him or speaking to him at all. He acts like he wants to be closer, but he doesn’t seem to know what that would entail. Who can be friends with a tyrant? Not I. His family is in shambles because of it.

    “I expect that you have been baptized and take communion form time to time. ” – Bo

    I don’t even worry about these rituals – as I can see you know, but I have taken part in them.

    “4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” – from Bo

    I agree with the righteousness of the law and Jesus – I just don’t think schedules and rituals make anyone more righteous.

    I pray that God makes the importance of these schedules and rituals apparent if they are indeed important.

  27. Tom,

    Lets go through it verse by verse.

    Matthew 7
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    (Many go this way. There are lots of “believers” not many doers.)
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    (There are only a few that find the narrow way that leads to life.)
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    (False prophets teach lawlessness Mt. 24:11-13. Peter describes them well. 2 Pe. 2:1-22.)
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    (If they teach lawlessness they probably do not keep the law either. They make merchandise of the flock and are servants of corruption.)
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    (Repentance with works that prove it is good fruit. Mt. 3:7-10 Good fruit comes from the mouth of a good tree. Lk.6:43-45; Good fruit is shown by lifestyle/good works Js. 3:2:13)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    (The end of someone without good fruits is to be burned.)
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    (Do not be deceived, righteous people do righteousness. Unrighteousness is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law.)
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    (The people hearing this would have equated the will of the Father with Torah. There is no indication that Y’Shua meant anything other than this.)
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    (Whether these gifts were true or false doesn’t matter.)
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
    (Those that practice lawlessness are not allowed to enter the kingdom. Lawlessness would have had no Christian context at the time this was spoken. The people that heard it would have understood this to mean exactly what it had always meant to them. A lifestyle that is breaking Torah.)
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    (These sayings of His include, the great in the kingdom doing and teaching all of Torah. It would have included having righteousness that exceeded the scribes and Pharisees. It would have especially included the words just before about workers of lawlessness.)
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    ( The rock is obedience to Y’Shua’s sayings. “These sayings” include those just above and throughout the sermon on the mount. A case can be made for the rest of His sayings being included, but they would not contradict “these sayings.”)
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    (Disobedience to these sayings just above and throughout the sermon on the mount bring about destruction. The foolish, carnal mind cannot subject itself to the Torah.)
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    (Great will be the fall of the disobedient “believers.” They will be thinking that calling Him Lord is the same thing as true faith. True faith has corresponding works. Doing the works of righteousness instead of lawlessness is mandatory if we do not want to hear, “depart from me.”)
    28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
    (Most “believers” that actually read what is being said here will be astonished. Most will probably chose to go down the same road that they are traveling now with the multitudes, instead or choosing the narrow way. Most will probably end up hearing, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice breaking the Torah.)

    How is may analysis? Do you see why I wrote what I wrote before? What’s the problem?

    Shalom

  28. Juan G.,

    I hear your heart. My father was not necessarily the paragon of virtue. No father is, except one. YHWH asks us to honor our parents, not because they are honorable, but because they are in the position of authority.

    The same goes for other authorities. Honor does not mean to agree with. Honor does not mean to bow before. It means to accept the authority as YHWH given and hold them in reverence because of their position as the chosen/anointed of YHWH. We did not choose our parents…YHHW did. He did not make a mistake.

    He has a special purpose in giving you to your parents. The reason may not be apparent to us at any given point in time. It is not something that we can reason out. It is much deeper than that. Submission to authority is a difficult thing, especially when we see, or think we see, the faults and unreasonableness of their rulings and actions.

    This happens to us with YHWH also. We do not agree with Him all the time, but He is our authority…our judge…our Father. To submit to things we cannot see the sense in is a test of honoring Him. It is a test of faith.

    The same goes with our earthly parents. It is a test of faith in YHWH. Can we truly trust YHWH that He gave us the parents that He designed for us. Is He big enough to reward us for the trials that come because of our parents short comings? Can we see past the present and get a glimpse of hope that YHWH will use the here and now to accomplish something better in us for the future? Will we humble ourselves and accept His purposes and design, instead of thinking that we could have done better or deserve better?

    We are all children of our Creator. We are all handicapped children. Y’Shua was the only son of YHWH that matured properly. YHWH looks at your father as a handicapped son of His. He knows that he is unable to walk as a man was intended to walk. He knows that you are just as handicapped. He loves you both.

    You need to see that your father is unable to do right by you. You need to accept him as a fellow handicapped creation of YHWH. If you can see your father in this light you will be able to forgive him easier. It is easy to forgive a brain damaged child for not being able to act right. It is difficult to forgive a person that you are looking for perfection out of.

    It is difficult to forgive if you think that you deserve better. This is pride. In a sense we do deserve better…but not yet. Can you trust YHWH to make it all up to you in the future? In a sense we deserve hell. Can you be thankful that YHWH has given you the gift of mercy and grace? Can you forgive YHWH for giving you the parents that He gave you? Can you forgive yourself for not responding to your parents as YHWH desires? Can you humble yourself in all these areas?

    A time of weeping and repentance will do wonders. Think about it. I have. It has done me wonders.

    I say all this having had only one handicapped child out of ten. He was 20 when he died. He never fed himself, talked, or walked. We had to do everything for him for 20 years. We changed his diapers for 20 years too.

    I have lived just a little bit of what YHWH has lived since the garden. He has done everything for his handicapped children, because they cannot do it for themselves. He only had one son to be proud of, but he looks at us and has hope that we will mature too. Let’s learn as much as we can about righteousness and holiness form His word. Let’s do our best, with His Spirit giving us power, to keep all of His commandments…the best we can as handicapped children. His grace will cover the things that we really cannot do. Let us grant grace to those that YHWH has placed in our lives for the things that they cannot do.

    We all want our parents to be perfect, or at least great. Our parents want us to be perfect, or at least great. Do you see why we are all disappointed? We can get past it if we let YHWH work on our pride.

    Shalom

  29. Bo,

    I want to apologize for saying the following:

    than there is no other way to say it but you are speaking a false gospel.

    While I strongly disagree with you on some things, this was over the top and presumptuous. Only God knows your heart, not me.

  30. The Gospel is simple enough from the beginning of its delivery, read what was given in Acts. We have Galations for Paul’s concern of adding to it as a man stated requirement for salvation. Nowhere does Paul talk about its Message being about the heart, but about fidelity to accepting Jesus life, death, and resurrection. Repentance, or a change of mind, is indeed a supernatural occurrance to the wise of the Age, for it is an act of stated need and humility.

    Thereafter, if we are talking about another’s relationship with God through the one who was sent(and who together send the Holy Spirit from Father and Son) discernment is often pretty straight forward. In Galations whoever has added to the basic requirements for salvation raises the sensibilities of Paul, John, Peter, Jude, James. Even Peter talks of being “born again”, in a similar manner to John.

    Here, it seems, all are addressing another matter altogether, which is how then shall a disciple live. Basic disagreement is by what is written by the Apostles, or by Moses, when differing. What constitutes the will of God, disobedience to “the Message, or Gospel” of Christ, and devotion to the calling is being debated. To end endless already covered discussion, it would be helpful if all would summarize their personal position, say, in twelve points and give it a rest.

  31. My position and argument is simple…simple enough for a child to understand.
    Mine is basically this:

    1) We disobeyed YHWH by breaking His law.

    2) This separated us from a relationship with Him.

    3) YHWH provided for a means to regain relationship.

    4) When we accept his provision He gives us a new heart that wants to obey Him.

    5) When we want to obey Him we keep His law.

    I believe in the atoning sacrifice of Y’Shua Messiah. I believe that He is our High priest. I believe that He has revealed His law to us. It is the same as His father’s law. The Levitical priesthood was instituted for those that would not accept the gospel and become priests to YHWH and listen directly to Him. He had Moses tell us what He would have said if we would have listened. The law has not changed. The priesthood has been offered to us and with it the rules regarding sacrifice and offering are different than that of the Levitical system, but YWHH’s laws of holiness, righteousness and morality have always been the same.

    The Levitical system operated along side the Messianic priesthood that was there all along. The Levitical was added for transgression. The “real” priesthood has always been available to those that would receive it. Abraham, David, Elijah and many others accepted it. The scope is much larger now, but the precepts remain the same. Clean and unclean have been a part of YHWH’s teaching to us all along. So has holy and profane. The same with YHWH’s feasts. Morality is not the only thing YHWH is concerned with.

    The gospel was preached to those at Sinai and unto us. This is stated in scripture. If you want to take the “us” to mean the Hebrews of that time…fine. We as gentiles can be grafted in and be partakers of everything offered to them. So the “us” means us in the final analysis. Peter certainly makes this point in the passage quoted below. If you take issue with the gospel being the same, I simply point you to Abraham that “saw My day” and David that said, “YHWH said to my lord” referring to Y”Shua. “By faith” they entered into the priesthood of the believer. Their faith looked forward and ours looks backward to Messiah’s sacrifice. I know that the prophets of old couldn’t see everything perfectly, but the scripture says that we see through a glass darkly ourselves.

    Hebrews 3:18-4:2
    18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
    1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
    2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

    The first ones that heard it did not mix what they heard with faith and disobeyed. They refused to continue to listen to YHWH so He separated the tribe of Levi to be priests instead of all of Israel being priests. Here is the offer:

    Exodus 19
    5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Here is where Israel refused to hear/obey His voice and opted to here His representatives instead:

    Deuteronomy 5
    25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
    26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
    27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

    Here is where we see that the offer to us is the same:

    1 Peter 2
    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    To be continued.

  32. Continued from above:

    The Levitical system was instituted because Israel as a whole rejected the opportunity/responsibility of hearing YHWH for themselves. The people could have had a “personal relationship” with YHWH and been His priests, but after this they needed someone to teach them YHWH’s will and they needed a covering for their sins until Messiah came in the flesh. They needed priests to mediate between them and YHWH. This earthly sacrificial system “entered because of transgression.” This schoolmaster was put in place to bring us to Messiah. The Levitical system, that was added for transgression, was to teach YHWH’s rules to the people that rejected the opportunity of hearing for themselves. We are offered a new covenant with the same laws (YHWH’s Torah), but with a restored “Melchisedec”/Messianic priesthood. This is why Jeremiah and John indicate that we need no man to teach us…we get our priesthood back.

    So the Levitical system with its “ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary” was set in place because of the refusal by Israel. The book of Hebrews openly declares that Messiah is a different type of high priest. With a different priesthood there are different “ordinances” of administration. The sacrifices are different. The temple is different and in a different location.

    Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    We know that YHWH had His appointed festivals (they are not Jewish feasts) and rules about clean and unclean long before Israel stood at Sinai. The author of Hebrews tells us of the differences between the systems but does not indicate that the clean/unclean or holy/profane rules have changed. He does not indicate the abolishment of YHWH’s appointed times. He refers to Jeremiah 31, not to show how there is a new law, but a new covenant. The change in the law that He refers to is solely concerning the Levitical ordinances and not that YHWH’s law has changed. We will have to wait for a new heavens and new earth for that to take place.

    Hebrews 7
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
    16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

    Under the Levitical system the people were taught the law. Under the Melchizedec system the people listen to YHWH for themselves and the YHWH’s law is on their hearts. The church, for the most part, has sold its birthright to a false Babylonian priestly system and has believed the false prophet’s proclamations that the law of YHWH has been changed. We have been duped.

    Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

    Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    2 Thessalonians 3
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    To be continued.

  33. Continued from above:

    It is a setup. The spirit of antimessiah is here and preparing the masses for the antimessiah. Unrighteous is sin…sin is the transgression of the law. We will be sent strong delusion it we continue to have pleasure in unrighteousness (law breaking). We need to receive the love of the truth (have the law written on our hearts) or we will not be saved. If we do not speak according to the law and the 10 commandments we have no light in us. We are being deceived. It is the antimessiah that changes the appointed times of YHWH and His laws, not Y”Shua. The earth is difiled/unclean because we transgress YHWH’s rules about clean/unclean and holy/profane. It is defiled because we think to change times and laws. We think to change the ordinances of YHWH. We are breaking the “everlasting covenant.”

    The gospel has been the same since the garden. It is everlasting. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. His sacrifice has always been in effect. The priesthood of the believer has always been YHWH’s design.

    Re 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Israel entered into a covenant with YHWH to obey the ones that He set up to speak His words to them. They opted themselves out of the covenant that would be YHWH speaking directly to them. YHWH offers them a new covenant that gives them back the opportunity that they gave up. Now they can be the priests instead of needing to go to the priest. This is what the main body of the book of Hebrews is about.

    Hebrews is preparing the Hebrew believers for the impending destruction of Jerusalem. The temple and its ordinances were about to be “vanishing away.” Messiah had told them to flee when this was about to take place. The call to come outside the camp and suffer reproach seems to have a double meaning. A call to spiritual devotion and a message to be ready to leave before the carnage. The Messianic believers were about to be cast off from the main body of Jews for not staying to fight. The schism was coming soon and they needed to be weaned from that which was vanishing away. Like us, it was difficult for them to divorce themselves from the culture and its ways of worship.

    The kingdom, was prophesied to become corrupted. Matthew 13 is a prime example. Some will not be able to receive the Word of YHWH for various reasons, but a few will bear fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold. An enemy will sow into the kingdom many false believers. The whole batch of dough gets corrupted with sin and false doctrine (leaven). In the end those that offend (cause others to sin/transgress the law and those that are lawless/without torah will be burnt in the fire. The kingdom mutates into a huge tree in which evil ones nest in its branches. The kingdom is corrupted by Babylon and is full of unclean birds/people. We are called to come out of her.

    So we have those that insist that we not obey YHWH’s law. Many believe these false prophets and are caused to sin. We have pagan religion and false doctrine mixed into the batch of dough so that it is all leavened now. We have the multitudes, that for every conceivable reason, cannot understand the Word and they do not bring forth fruit unto righteousness and holiness.

    I guess you can take these Biblical concepts as condemnation or heed their warnings to us. The commandments of men make YHWH’s law of no effect. Y”Shua didn’t come to change even the slightest pen stroke, but we have an almost totally leavened church that insists that He changed it. He hasn’t changed it. We have changed it by our commandments of men. We are the ones that think to change His laws and ordinances. We think we are clean when we are not.

    Pr 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    Shalom

  34. Tom,

    In response to post #318 here is one ancient document that would support my statement about Astarte Sunday (Easter).

    The following was penned by Polycrates and is related to us by Eusebius.

    “ From His Epistle to Victor and the Roman Church Concerning the Day of Keeping the Passover.

    As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day, neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest, who shall rise again in the day of the coming of the Lord, when He cometh with glory from heaven and shall raise again all the saints. I speak of Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who is laid to rest at Hierapolis; and his two daughters, who arrived at old age unmarried; his other daughter also, who passed her life under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and reposes at Ephesus; John, moreover, who reclined on the Lord’s bosom, and who became a priest wearing the mitre, and a witness and a teacher-he rests at Ephesus. Then there is Polycarp, both bishop and martyr at Smyrna; and Thraseas from Eumenia, both bishop and martyr, who rests at Smyrna. Why should I speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who rests at Laodicea? of the blessed Papirius, moreover? and of Melito the eunuch, who performed all his actions under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and lies at Sardis, awaiting the visitation from heaven, when he shall rise again from the dead? These all kept the passover on the fourteenth. day of the month, in accordance with the Gospel, without ever deviating from it, but keeping to the rule of faith.

    Moreover I also, Polycrates, who am the least of you all, in accordance with the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have succeeded-seven of my relatives were bishops, and I am the eighth, and my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven-I myself, brethren, I say, who am sixty-five years old in the Lord, and have fallen in with the brethren in all parts of the world, and have read through all Holy Scripture, am not frightened at the things which are said to terrify us. For those who are greater than I have said, “We ought to obey God rather than men.” …

    I might also have made mention of the bishops associated with me, whom it was your own desire to have called together by me, and I called them together: whose names, if I were to write them down, would amount to a great number. These bishops, on coming to see me, unworthy as I am, signified their united approval of the letter, knowing that I wore these grey hairs not in vain, but have always regulated my conduct in obedience to the Lord Jesus.”

    So, Phillip, John and his successor Polycarp, and basically the whole eastern church kept the Paschal feast/Passover on the 14th day of the lunar month in which Israel was brought out of Egypt. The whole eastern church was almost excommunicated by Rome, under Pope Victor, over which day the Paschal feast/Passover was to be kept. Polycrates spoke for the whole assembly of easterners when he wrote, ‘For those who are greater than I have said, “We ought to obey God rather than men.”’ Polycrates died one year later in 196 C.E. So for about 160 years after Messiah’s death burial and resurrection there is a very large group of believers standing on the Biblical and Apostolic view of Passover observance, against the apostatizing Roman church.

    Easter is pagan.

    Shalom

  35. Bo, Now you have raised a specific matter, as to continuing dispute, whereas you and others were requested to summarize, and let it rest. Certainly one is aware of how some current calendar observations came to be, and how the Passover came to be. That these are disputable matters indeed has a history, a history we need not repeat here by example, rather than citation.

  36. Jabez H.,

    I was answering a previous post by Tom.

    Thanks for your request to summarize…probably a good Idea. I wrote the posts above before your request and was not posting them in regard to your post. It just happened at the same time. Were I to summarize in about 12 points or so, I would do it a bit differently.

    Now, if you have some authority in moderating this forum, I will follow your requested procedure and wind down my posts. If you are just having a good idea, I may feel the need or want to continue to post in response to others’ comments or I may post just because I think something has not been addressed fully.

    Shalom

  37. Dave,

    You wrote:
    “Again, I have stated my reasons to believe multiple times as have you. I DO believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. You DON’T. So let’s put this to rest, ok?”

    I assuredly do think that Messiah fulfilled the law and the prophets. He has more to fulfill. He is still fulfilling them. Fulfilling does not mean that others are not supposed to obey what the law and prophets say. It means that he obeyed that which was written about Him…at least for His first coming.

    If I fulfill the command to not murder it does not mean that I can then begin murdering since it has already been fulfilled. It does not mean that you can murder now that I fulfilled it. Abraham kept the law, so did Paul and Zachariah and Elizabeth. This does not mean that we can forget about it.

    If Paul would have defined fulfill the way you do, he would have never agreed to offer at the temple after Messiah’s death, burial and resurrection. He would have never written some of his statements…many of which I have quoted in previous posts.

    Your version of “to fulfill” basically equals “to make void” or “to rescind.” This is quite the opposite of the intention of the rest of Messiah’s words…and Paul’s.

    Psalms 119
    126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

    Romans 3
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    We are to walk in the steps of Y’Shua, who did no transgressing of the law. We are not to think that He came to destroy/rescind/make void the law.

    OK, let’s let it rest.

    Shalom

  38. Bo

    RE: Sunday as the day of Christian worship…

    Jesus died on the Sabbath [day of preparation] and was raised “on the third day” which was Sunday (Luke 24:21). Jesus had also predicted “today, tomorrow and the third day” (see Luke 13:32) and this fits perfectly with the inclusive reckoning of Luke 24:21.

    Sunday is indeed the third day since the Friday crucifixion. That third day, Sunday, was designated by Jesus as the day of his resurrection (Luke 24:7).

    Two of them were going that very day [Sunday] to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem (Luke 24:13).

  39. Juan G.,

    You Wrote:
    “I agree with the righteousness of the law and Jesus – I just don’t think schedules and rituals make anyone more righteous.”

    The real issue here is not that keeping YHWH’s appointed times makes us more righteous. They are the righteous thing to do simply because YHWH directs us to do them. They are also commandments of holiness. They separate us from those that are doing their own thing or another elohim’s thing. They are a declaration of our allegiance to YHWH. They are really no more ritualistic than brushing our teeth or backing up our computers on a schedule. They are much more important, though.

    YHWH has opted to do things on a schedule. His plan of redemption is declared in the feasts. He fulfills His feasts on the exact day. Messiah died on Passover as our Passover Lamb. He rose as the first fruits from the dead on First fruits. He gave us the token of our marriage covenant on Pentecost. He will come to gather His elect on the feast of Trumpets. He has many things to do on the day of Atonement. He will come to dwell with us and consummate His marriage on the feast of tabernacles.

    He wants us to be on the same schedule as He is. He wants us to gather together and rejoice for what He has done and will do for us. We are told that YHWH seeks those that worship in spirit and in truth. The truth entails doing what He asks on the day He asks us to do it. Not as mere ritual, but from our hearts and spirits rejoicing with one another in one accord in one place. His feasts are holy thanksgiving days…not man made ones. They are days that He has set aside to meet with His betrothed in a special way. They are great.

    Shalom

  40. Chuck,

    You will find, in studying a bit more closely, that Messiah ascended to the Father on the first fruits, which always falls on the first day of the week. He was gone from the tomb by the time the women got there, at the end of the Sabbath, just after the sun had set and the first day of the week was starting. He died on Passover which is the day before the first day of Unleavened Bread, which is a Sabbath no matter what day it falls on. Passover day is the preparation day for this Sabbath. In the year of His death Passover fell on Wednesday. The women rested on a Sabbath then bought spices and prepared them and rested another Sabbath then went to the tomb. You really cannot get 3 days and 3 nights any other way. And you really cannot have less days and nights. If you would like to study this more closely, let me know.

    Shalom

  41. Chuck,

    There is no scripture that says that Sunday is the day of Christian worship. That Y’Shua ascended to the Father as the first fruits from the dead and poured out the spirit on YHWH’s feast days is the point…not that it happened on a Sunday. It took well over a hundred years for Sunday to start being the norm of Christian meeting. It took about 550 years for it to be set in stone as the replacement for Sabbath by an apostate Roman council.

    Shalom

  42. 1. Messiah is the (goal, end, toll) of the Torah, He paid the toll by being Himself, thus He destroyed the covenant of Torah, in order to establish a new and better covenant.

    2. Messiah is who we follow now, He teaches what to do, before everyone had to do the Torah of Moses, but now we are saved through Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah, He is our leader, our Rabbi, He is Eloheem/God who can, and does change the Torah, so that it is whatever He wants it to be, the Torah we follow is now the Spirit of Torah.

    3. The Spirit of Torah is Eloheem/God, and the Messiah, the Spirit of Torah is not the strict letter of Torah, the scrict letter was to be done, for a time, but now Eloheem/God through Moses, and the prophets explained about different ways that Eloheem/God can do. It used to be the covenant of Moses, but now it is the Covenant of Yeshua Messiah, with chayn(grace, favor, kindness), and emeth(truth). So the Spirit of Torah, means we embrace the righteousness in the Torah of Moses, but not all is the righteousness in Torah according to the Spirit of Torah. Thus the Torah we embrace is all the Tanach(O.C.), and more than that, the Spirit of Torah is Messiah.

    4. The Spirit of Torah is the Yah/Lord, and Eloheem/God, the very image of perfection, the strict letter of Torah of Moses is a part of shadow. So we must obey the Spirit of Torah(Messiah). Messiah will lead us into all perfection in Him.

    5. The strict letter of Torah is not even always obeyed in the Torah, because sometimes the Spirit of Torah leads to do things against the strict letter of Torah. For example one area of righteousness can supercede another area of righteousness.

    6. The we must obey Messiah which leads in the sense of an endless life, we are no longer subject to a non perfect Torah(law), rather we are subject to the perfect Torah(Law) even Messiah Yeshua our Yah/Lord, and Eloheem/God. Heb. 7:15-17

    7. When we are subject to the body of Torah(Messiah), we then follow His every desire, and He leads us away from anything that is against His desire, as I have said, circumcision, Shabbath, New Moon, Feast Days, Kosher eating, ect., is not the issue, the important part is we are a new creature, and now all things are new. So being that we are new we accept all Messiah(the way, truth, and life), He can lead away from some areas of the Torah of Moses, and He can lead to do some areas of Torah, both are part of Him, and who He is, because He is Torah.

    8. We are not supposed to judge each other, based on the shadow, rather we are supposed to recognize the completed work of Messiah, and recognize Him, because then He lives His life through us, and He can do whatever He desires to do.

  43. Chuck,

    We are a bit off topic. If you can find the forum that discusses this, let me know where it is and I will see if I can explain there. If I find it I’ll let you know too.

    Shalom

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